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United States37500 Posts
Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
Non-League of Legends discussion should go in the LiquidLegends Lounge.
Certain topics are blacklisted from LoL General Discussion and they include:- "Elo hell"
- The Tribunal
- Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
Additionally, the TL LoL Ten Commandments are available for you to reference if you have any questions about this subforum.
Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions. Lastly, confine QQing and bragging to their respective threads.
There is no new champion this patch.
Patch 8.1: Live on Jan. 10th, 2018
+ Show Spoiler [Previous GD Threads & Patch Notes] +
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They buffed Eve? I mean... ok.
It's a qol thing, but still as a guy who has played like 50 straight eve games... definitely not required.
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Meddler mentioned they may have to tweak eve after this. I think the patch was finalized awhile back so it looks pretty wonky.
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and why the patch notes are coming a week before the patch, this is new
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The Heimer nerf to R/Q
lol
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I was excited to look these over, then realized that they're the same changes that have been up for close to a month now on PBE. Riot Winter Holiday sucks.
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On January 10 2018 05:52 M2 wrote: and why the patch notes are coming a week before the patch, this is new The patch is going live tonight.
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Holy moly, 50% Graves W slow, I think those buffs might make him viable again as a carry jungler.
Are the Skarner buffs enough to make him viable? Personally when I see him in games I think he does fine, way too easy to kite though, which the changes don't solve.
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It seems kind of dumb to me. I don't really get why they think supports hate vision and think it's not powerful. Vision is one of if not the most powerful aspect in league. Sightone wasn't a "forced to do it", it was a "it's so freaking amazing that why wouldn't I buy it".
I just never understand what they doing with support itemization. The role is currently insanely powerful with tons of options. Why are they bothering with it?
edit: I guess this nerfs them anyway. Since they can't get sightstone so early and there's no insanely powerful item like ardent then they just a lot worse off.
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On January 10 2018 07:03 Numy wrote:It seems kind of dumb to me. I don't really get why they think supports hate vision and think it's not powerful. Vision is one of if not the most powerful aspect in league. Sightone wasn't a "forced to do it", it was a "it's so freaking amazing that why wouldn't I buy it". I just never understand what they doing with support itemization. The role is currently insanely powerful with tons of options. Why are they bothering with it? edit: I guess this nerfs them anyway. Since they can't get sightstone so early and there's no insanely powerful item like ardent then they just a lot worse off. Looks like low elo change, so every support will get wards, except the doran blade yasous and doran ring luxes xD
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On January 10 2018 08:00 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2018 07:03 Numy wrote:It seems kind of dumb to me. I don't really get why they think supports hate vision and think it's not powerful. Vision is one of if not the most powerful aspect in league. Sightone wasn't a "forced to do it", it was a "it's so freaking amazing that why wouldn't I buy it". I just never understand what they doing with support itemization. The role is currently insanely powerful with tons of options. Why are they bothering with it? edit: I guess this nerfs them anyway. Since they can't get sightstone so early and there's no insanely powerful item like ardent then they just a lot worse off. Looks like low elo change, so every support will get wards, except the doran blade yasous and doran ring luxes xD This was my initial thought too. lol
rip FotM.
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I think you're wrong in that for most players buying sightstone sucks. Wards just aren't as empowering. It's like wow, I get to go to base and buy boots and sightstone now and run around and ward stuff for my laners to ignore. FeelsAmazingMan! Now players get to build the items they like, while still getting sightstone.
That doesn't mean I necessarily like the change, but I understand where Riot is coming from.
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They should go play another role then. Why play the role that has the most impact on team vision and ability to move around the map then bitch about it?
Feels to me like they just shooting in the dark for no real reason. Well I still think taking away green wards was a bad idea instead of fixing the way itemization worked.
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Riot wants the roles to be relatively balanced in player base. If too many players bitch about support being boring or whatever means that not enough people are playing it. How do you fix that? Give them stuff they enjoy while keeping the core of the role relatively the same. It sucks to play bot with an autofilled supp vs a non autofilled supp. The less that happens, the higher the quality of the game, and the more enjoyment not only the support gains, but also their lane partner.
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On January 10 2018 09:11 Numy wrote: They should go play another role then. Why play the role that has the most impact on team vision and ability to move around the map then bitch about it?
Feels to me like they just shooting in the dark for no real reason. Well I still think taking away green wards was a bad idea instead of fixing the way itemization worked. But then autofill happens and you're screwed or take a time/LP penalty to dodge.
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On January 10 2018 10:24 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2018 09:11 Numy wrote: They should go play another role then. Why play the role that has the most impact on team vision and ability to move around the map then bitch about it?
Feels to me like they just shooting in the dark for no real reason. Well I still think taking away green wards was a bad idea instead of fixing the way itemization worked. But then autofill happens and you're screwed or take a time/LP penalty to dodge. reset queue at ~1:30 to 1:45 and never get auto filled
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To be honest Sightone makes less sense than when it was introduced. At the time it “Generated” more gold than wards because they had a shop value, now they don’t.
This change is obviously geared towards low elo/autofill probly a nerf to bottom lane safely at high elo/ competitive, which is probably positive to be honest.
It does also make frostfang jungle possibly something you would upgrade, but I guess we’ll see.
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On January 10 2018 10:45 Slusher wrote: To be honest Sightone makes less sense than when it was introduced. At the time it “Generated” more gold than wards because they had a shop value, now they don’t.
This change is obviously geared towards low elo/autofill probly a nerf to bottom lane safely at high elo/ competitive, which is probably positive to be honest.
It does also make frostfang jungle possibly something you would upgrade, but I guess we’ll see.
This is true. Support in soloQ needs to be 2nd Midlaner/toplaner to be appealing to enough people such that it does not become 80% autofill. The fact that in Plat + and Pro play it has always been strong (in fact many jungle changes also follow this line of thought, look at how they are always giving junglers more gold, until Yi is soloQ OP, then nerfing jungle gold again), is irrelevant to these changes.
In fact, nerfing support vision also has ancillary benefits to Riot as it makes pro games more random (aka better chance at upsets at worlds).
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I honestly think the support changes are just a way to get FOTM out of the game as well nerf klepto/frostqueen top lane
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On January 10 2018 13:41 IamPryda wrote: I honestly think the support changes are just a way to get FOTM out of the game as well nerf klepto/frostqueen top lane
It's also a way to deal with relic shield on adc, if the shield quest is no longer there.
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Wow. The support item changes have about the most negative reaction to anything I’ve ever seen riot propose. Not that people are flaming, but just that every single post on the boards are opposing it. Usually there is at least someone in favor, even if it’s just an apologist. Here everyone hates it.
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I think the vast opposition might stem from the fact that this change is merely removing options not actually adding anything as they claim. Instead of having a choice between getting sightstone or delaying, they strip that choice from you. They also remove the choice between Eye item and active support path. So really it just removes a lot from support without adding anything.
I get the feeling this was a nerfing/dumbing down of the role they tried to pass as "adding to diversity". Maybe in their mind they think it adds stuff. Combine that with the fact that the support position is rather healthy in pre-season while they had a pretty awful second half of the year with ardent censor. It just seems rather strange changes.
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Honestly ADC getting relic shield was just dumb. More variety in starting items would be nice, but not with support items.
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Just make two relics in an arbitrary radius have a shared CD then if you don't want relic bought by adcs.
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They should really just eliminate support & jungle items.
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How do you imagine the game will be played then? As far as I can see this is one of the most elegant solutions to the problem of not all five people in the game having a similar place or way to play the earlygame. Having said that, the current Relic Shield meta is again one of "adapt or die", which isn't good for the game at all.
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Well, I'd just bring back standard GP5s and let solos decide whether they want to give up power (and probably CS) for money. The jungle issue is that clear speed and hp is too important right now, so I'd figure out a solution such that just about every champ in the game has the same clearspeed and HP. Whether this is an ivern solution, greatly lowering the HP and damage of camps, capture the flag, etc is up to designers. This would eliminate the soloQ "AFK Farming" complaint people always roll up with whenever a carry jungler actually is able to carry, while also greatly increasing pro play diversity.
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On January 11 2018 09:12 cLutZ wrote: Well, I'd just bring back standard GP5s and let solos decide whether they want to give up power (and probably CS) for money. The jungle issue is that clear speed and hp is too important right now, so I'd figure out a solution such that just about every champ in the game has the same clearspeed and HP. Whether this is an ivern solution, greatly lowering the HP and damage of camps, capture the flag, etc is up to designers. This would eliminate the soloQ "AFK Farming" complaint people always roll up with whenever a carry jungler actually is able to carry, while also greatly increasing pro play diversity.
I miss gangplank jungle
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On January 11 2018 00:51 Numy wrote: I think the vast opposition might stem from the fact that this change is merely removing options not actually adding anything as they claim. Instead of having a choice between getting sightstone or delaying, they strip that choice from you. They also remove the choice between Eye item and active support path. So really it just removes a lot from support without adding anything.
I get the feeling this was a nerfing/dumbing down of the role they tried to pass as "adding to diversity". Maybe in their mind they think it adds stuff. Combine that with the fact that the support position is rather healthy in pre-season while they had a pretty awful second half of the year with ardent censor. It just seems rather strange changes.
I get what you mean but I think they believe that so long as Sightstone is a bottleneck, you won't get "real diversity". We will have to wait and see how they develop the role without sightstone. It just annoys me that they place this right as the season starts when they had a preseason where they made one big change, then let it sit for 3 months.
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I’d love to see every role have an ability to grab a useful item that drops wards so that warding can be more of a team thing. But idk if that would actually do anything because there’s still lots of junglers that don’t opt for the vision jungle item.
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I disagree with the notion that they removed options. Supports have historically only had one option - buy vision. you either do it, or you're told you're bad and memed. This only changed when ardent became so ridiculous that it was worth rushing over vision.
Riot has slowly been moving supports away from that. First green wards were killed so that supports could buy something other than wards. sightstone was made more and more accessible, letting it be combined and giving it better stats. This has on average always improved the game as a whole, despite naysayers predicting otherwise. (and some diehard holdouts wishing green wards were still the only option)
More support players, less trolling as support, better queues as a result, etc.
Now after a meta where not getting sightstone was an option, and the game not totally breaking because of it, Riot is comfortable going ever further (this was part of a rioter's response somewhere in the depths of a reddit thread). Based on past results in this direction, I think it will turn out fine. You can argue that maybe they went too far, but I will at least applaud them for trying as the reasoning is sound..
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On January 11 2018 15:02 Kaneh wrote: I disagree with the notion that they removed options. Supports have historically only had one option - buy vision. you either do it, or you're told you're bad and memed. This only changed when ardent became so ridiculous that it was worth rushing over vision.
Riot has slowly been moving supports away from that. First green wards were killed so that supports could buy something other than wards. sightstone was made more and more accessible, letting it be combined and giving it better stats. This has on average always improved the game as a whole, despite naysayers predicting otherwise. (and some diehard holdouts wishing green wards were still the only option)
More support players, less trolling as support, better queues as a result, etc.
Now after a meta where not getting sightstone was an option, and the game not totally breaking because of it, Riot is comfortable going ever further (this was part of a rioter's response somewhere in the depths of a reddit thread). Based on past results in this direction, I think it will turn out fine. You can argue that maybe they went too far, but I will at least applaud them for trying as the reasoning is sound..
This will actually make support feel worse (at least higher up) before it gets better (which will be when you get to HOTS style equality).
The reason supports and junglers in S2, then almost 100% supports in S3 itemized only vision is because vision is the most efficient gold expense once you get mildly good. This is why smokes and wards are limited items in the DOTA shop (and DOTA supports are even more gold starved than LOL supports ever were, but, just P.S. this is older DOTA playing knowledge so don't @ me with how things have changed recently). In some ways, earlygame vision is even more important in LOL than DOTA because in LOL a nice jungle gank can shift a lane from "even" to "GG WP hope some other lane can carry", while in DOTA you are expected to die quite often, and your team will TP in for revenge kills and the like.
So, when we still had Oracles, vision was such a money sink, and JG + Support had so little gold income that it took up basically all of their income. THIS WAS AN OBJECTIVELY GOOD INVESTMENT BY JUNGLERS AND SUPPORTS (assuming a competent team) because gold and EXP are better when concentrated, but people hated it in soloQ (particularly low ranks). Then they limited (then eliminated) the Oracles money sink, made the jungle items (and made the jungle impossible for 3/4 of the cast) gave more passive income, and eventually eliminated the ability to have good vision based on economic sacrifice. All these things reduced the power of jungle & support in pro play, but made them more fun for soloQ. All these changes took away options from high level players, but made bad to decent players feel more powerful because they didn't understand the power of the old options and/or their teammates did not.
But, once you eliminate the gold sinks from vision there is very little place to go for supports other than giving them cash. Currently there are still only 3.5-4 income sources for 5 players, and by making vision less powerful you make the last 2 roles less & less powerful until they can compete without the value of vision. This means either making them OP naked, but having terrible scaling (DOTA style) or just handing out gold as a team ( in a HOTS system possibly with teamwide CS) and then reworking/reverting the Jannas, Leona's etc, to make them work in the new system.
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On January 11 2018 14:38 geript wrote: I’d love to see every role have an ability to grab a useful item that drops wards so that warding can be more of a team thing. But idk if that would actually do anything because there’s still lots of junglers that don’t opt for the vision jungle item. Something like a trinket, but we can't use green. Maybe something less blue?
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On January 11 2018 09:12 cLutZ wrote: Well, I'd just bring back standard GP5s and let solos decide whether they want to give up power (and probably CS) for money. The jungle issue is that clear speed and hp is too important right now, so I'd figure out a solution such that just about every champ in the game has the same clearspeed and HP. Whether this is an ivern solution, greatly lowering the HP and damage of camps, capture the flag, etc is up to designers. This would eliminate the soloQ "AFK Farming" complaint people always roll up with whenever a carry jungler actually is able to carry, while also greatly increasing pro play diversity.
GP5 items were not good, you had to buy them as a support or you'd fall massively behind compared to the enemy support. At the same time, their stats and effects couldn't be too great or it would again widen the gap between the champ who has on and the one who doesn't.
Also don't get your argument that all junglers should have the same clearspeed. How would this increase diversity? It would just mean that the champions with the best utility/gank power would be instant picks since everything is so homogeneous, instead of considering the advantage that a faster clearing champion can offer. AFK farming is in the same category as AFK splitpushing, people complain but it's not actually an issue in the grand scheme of things.
I like the idea of all junglers being able to clear the jungle healthily though. Maybe give massive regen on jungle camps for those champions who have a jungle item and smite. That way we can make almost every champion somewhat viable in the jungle.
On January 11 2018 14:38 geript wrote: I’d love to see every role have an ability to grab a useful item that drops wards so that warding can be more of a team thing. But idk if that would actually do anything because there’s still lots of junglers that don’t opt for the vision jungle item.
Easy: Bring back boot enchantments, stick wards on them. Remove yellow trinket, replace it with something else, like a pink ward or a ranged ward disabler that blocks vision in an area for 15 sec or so. Now everyone has access to both standard and pink wards.
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From PBE: Hunter's Talisman, Hunter's Machete
Now notes "Limited to 1 Gold Income or Jungle Item."
Rip Frostfang jungling.
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On January 12 2018 03:32 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2018 09:12 cLutZ wrote: Well, I'd just bring back standard GP5s and let solos decide whether they want to give up power (and probably CS) for money. The jungle issue is that clear speed and hp is too important right now, so I'd figure out a solution such that just about every champ in the game has the same clearspeed and HP. Whether this is an ivern solution, greatly lowering the HP and damage of camps, capture the flag, etc is up to designers. This would eliminate the soloQ "AFK Farming" complaint people always roll up with whenever a carry jungler actually is able to carry, while also greatly increasing pro play diversity.
GP5 items were not good, you had to buy them as a support or you'd fall massively behind compared to the enemy support. At the same time, their stats and effects couldn't be too great or it would again widen the gap between the champ who has on and the one who doesn't. Also don't get your argument that all junglers should have the same clearspeed. How would this increase diversity? It would just mean that the champions with the best utility/gank power would be instant picks since everything is so homogeneous, instead of considering the advantage that a faster clearing champion can offer. AFK farming is in the same category as AFK splitpushing, people complain but it's not actually an issue in the grand scheme of things. I like the idea of all junglers being able to clear the jungle healthily though. Maybe give massive regen on jungle camps for those champions who have a jungle item and smite. That way we can make almost every champion somewhat viable in the jungle.
1. As far as GP5 items went, I liked them both as a support, a jungler, and occasionally in sololanes. Sage's pick was bad, but that is because it was poorly designed. Shurelia's was a better item then than anything supports get now, from a support perspective. And the whole point of them was that they were weak(ish) a tradeoff for the gold income, whereas their upgrades were pretty good, as a tradeoff for losing the future gold.
Plus, all your points really also apply to modern gold generating items. If you bring a Dring to lane against a frostfang or coin support, you will fall massively behind unless you get kills. Gold generation is just as strong now (perhaps more so), just look at the predicable killing of Frostfang jungle (can't have those guys double dipping!). They just stacked gimmicks onto the gold items to discourage solo-laners from taking them.
2. My argument about junglers having the same clearspeed increasing diversity is this: Currently having a safe and quick clear starting at lvl 1 is a bar to entry for the jungle. Most champs simply don't have one. But, if you simply make the jungle easier for more people, powerfarmers like Yi will come into vogue (like Shyvana just did and people cried, then she got nerfed) and you will have to nerf them, or change the jungle again. I want Yi to be able to jungle, but not because he simply can clear the jungle super fast and AFK farm his whole side while the other jungler takes an extra minute, or has to back. Rather, I want people to pick Yi for Yi.
What I guess I'm saying is you remove a confounding variable for balance. People, generally, already pick the jungler (that clears a certain bar of clearspeed) based on utility/gank prowess. By leveling the playing field for clears, people can pick their jungler based on those 2 factors, teamcomp, etc, and I wouldn't have to worry about balancing champion PVP vs. PVE powerlevels with gimmicks like capping damage to monsters (Shyvana, Xin, a few others).
3. I'd prefer to eliminate the jungle item (and maybe smite) instead, and just let the jungle be the jungle. The S2 problem of Karthus and Anivia always stealing wraiths was as much a product of circumstances as it was about ease of killing monsters. Junglers back then were always going to be poor because of 400G oracles elixer & the jungle overall being cash poor. Wraiths being close to mid is kind of fun, but there should be more camps that are not close to lanes so that a jungler is making a choice between farming and ganking, not accidentally getting a nice countergank.
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On January 12 2018 11:45 Gahlo wrote: From PBE: Hunter's Talisman, Hunter's Machete
Now notes "Limited to 1 Gold Income or Jungle Item."
Rip Frostfang jungling.
RIP. </3
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If you bring a Dring to lane against a frostfang or coin support, you will fall massively behind unless you get kills.
The difference between new support items and GP5 items is that they are incredibly cheap, and pay out for their T1 form very quickly. The punishment for not going T2 immediately is minuscule, in fact many forgo upgrading until they have sightstone or some other item. Meawhile, with GP5 items, you had to build it first item, or you'd be behind severely. It was even worse when you could get double GP5 items, if you're enemy support got some kills he could come back with Philo and HoG and basically laugh in your face with his endless stream of gold.
Other reason I don't like GP5 is because there is no incentive for aggressive play. Frostfang requires you to harass, Targon's requires you to get into melee range of minions, just Coin allows passive play. All of a sudden, Janna becomes the new golden standard again.
Rather, I want people to pick Yi for Yi
But clearing the jungle fast is what makes Yi a Yi. You just decided that jungle clear speeds are not integral to champion design, which I don't think is true.
Currently having a safe and quick clear starting at lvl 1 is a bar to entry for the jungle.
True, but evening out clear speeds wouldn't solve the problem of jungle diversity, because then people would just pick utility champs. To go to Yi, if he weren't able to outfarm the enemy jungler and have an exp/gold advantage, he'd be a pretty shit jungler because he brings absolutely no utility or CC. He thrives on blowing up people, and if he can't pull a lv/item advantage easily, there's no reason to pick.
The S2 problem of Karthus and Anivia always stealing wraiths was as much a product of circumstances as it was about ease of killing monsters.
It was getting to the point where every mid laner was running into the jungle clearing wraiths. Orianna, Ryze, Gragas?, Morgana etc were doing the same thing. And junglers weren't that poor, they were more supportive by S2 Worlds, but running Dr. Mundo ward bot and relying on his ultimate to cover up his lack of gold was not the way to go.
Discussing why jungle creeps should/shouldn't be near lanes is a pretty big topic. If they're too easy to access, laners will be able to harass or clear camps too easily. Too far, and the laners can't interact with the jungler except for ganks, cutting off an entire part of the game. You're only looking at this from the point of view of the jungler, not the laners. I personally think the shape of the current jungle, and the map in general, is extremely good, it is possible to reach many parts of the jungle from lane quite fast, but it can still be time consuming and not worth it.
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Those PBE nunu changes seem so busted.
For those who didnt see them - his passive now gives flat damage + 5%ap on hit per stack (up to 5). So at max amount its 55 damage + 25% ap per hit.
Blood boil now gives 40% bonus AP to both targets (with a cap of 20+20/level of blood boil)
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They AP change seems weird to me because it creates a situation where you're not sure who is the best person to blood boil which seems like something Riot would be against.
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On January 12 2018 18:37 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +If you bring a Dring to lane against a frostfang or coin support, you will fall massively behind unless you get kills. The difference between new support items and GP5 items is that they are incredibly cheap, and pay out for their T1 form very quickly. The punishment for not going T2 immediately is minuscule, in fact many forgo upgrading until they have sightstone or some other item. Meawhile, with GP5 items, you had to build it first item, or you'd be behind severely. It was even worse when you could get double GP5 items, if you're enemy support got some kills he could come back with Philo and HoG and basically laugh in your face with his endless stream of gold.
Really, your defense here of the new GP5 items is that they are actually really good items, which means they don't need gold passives. They defeat the purpose of a tradeoff.
On January 12 2018 18:37 DarkCore wrote: Other reason I don't like GP5 is because there is no incentive for aggressive play. Frostfang requires you to harass, Targon's requires you to get into melee range of minions, just Coin allows passive play. All of a sudden, Janna becomes the new golden standard again.
GP5 items, when properly implemented, encourage aggressive play by the player that doesn't have them. The fact that you can afford to be aggro with a GP5 item means it is broken.
On January 12 2018 18:37 DarkCore wrote: But clearing the jungle fast is what makes Yi a Yi. You just decided that jungle clear speeds are not integral to champion design, which I don't think is true. You can think that, but then you need to find me another, good way, to get Annie Jungle vs. Rammus Jungle vs. Tryndamere Jungle in LCS playoffs.
On January 12 2018 18:37 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +Currently having a safe and quick clear starting at lvl 1 is a bar to entry for the jungle. True, but evening out clear speeds wouldn't solve the problem of jungle diversity, because then people would just pick utility champs. To go to Yi, if he weren't able to outfarm the enemy jungler and have an exp/gold advantage, he'd be a pretty shit jungler because he brings absolutely no utility or CC. He thrives on blowing up people, and if he can't pull a lv/item advantage easily, there's no reason to pick.
I'd argue that getting a farming advantage should be premised on the choice to farm, so you can still achieve it. As I already said, people already select junglers almost purely on utility in pro play, they just select from a small pool that provides that, plus with the ability to clear.
On January 12 2018 18:37 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote + The S2 problem of Karthus and Anivia always stealing wraiths was as much a product of circumstances as it was about ease of killing monsters. It was getting to the point where every mid laner was running into the jungle clearing wraiths. Orianna, Ryze, Gragas?, Morgana etc were doing the same thing. And junglers weren't that poor, they were more supportive by S2 Worlds, but running Dr. Mundo ward bot and relying on his ultimate to cover up his lack of gold was not the way to go.Discussing why jungle creeps should/shouldn't be near lanes is a pretty big topic. If they're too easy to access, laners will be able to harass or clear camps too easily. Too far, and the laners can't interact with the jungler except for ganks, cutting off an entire part of the game. You're only looking at this from the point of view of the jungler, not the laners. I personally think the shape of the current jungle, and the map in general, is extremely good, it is possible to reach many parts of the jungle from lane quite fast, but it can still be time consuming and not worth it.
Literally the world championship winning strategy was "not the way to go". Very serious.
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On January 13 2018 03:17 Ansibled wrote: They AP change seems weird to me because it creates a situation where you're not sure who is the best person to blood boil which seems like something Riot would be against.
Makes me shudder at the thought of Nunu+Kayle or Nunu+Diana.
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If any nunu buff goes through I will be a jungle Nunubot main next season!
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On January 13 2018 03:37 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 03:17 Ansibled wrote: They AP change seems weird to me because it creates a situation where you're not sure who is the best person to blood boil which seems like something Riot would be against.
Makes me shudder at the thought of Nunu+Kayle or Nunu+Diana.
I was more thinking Azir. But kayle scary too.
On January 13 2018 03:39 JimmiC wrote: If any nunu buff goes through I will be a jungle Nunubot main next season!
On the other hand, ima ban that shit every game. Lol. That champion is so aids to play and play against. Do not want him to be good, personally.
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Your not wrong! I want him good enough i can play him but no so good hes perma banned. Thats the dream
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The biggest discrepancy in junglers in pro play has nothing to do with clear speed. It's dashes.Unless you mean standardizing clear speeds is done by removing dashes.
I don't see a reason for having every champion jungle. Do you see Cass/Elise bot lanes? Or Trynd Mid? Unlike lanes, there is no true matchup in jungle. It's inherently a PVE based role. If you standardise the PVE part of the role you're removing a huge part of the role and of the champions that play that role. Elise wouldn't be nearly as special if every AP champ with a stun can play jungle and clear easily and quickly. Her spiders become worthless for the most part, no longer providing unique play and then all these AP stun champs will just crowd her out and she'll never see play again. Sure you might get Annie jungle, but you'll lose a lot of the other original junglers and you will lose many people in the role in my opinion. Maining jungle sucks. Your role gets chopped and changed so often and so stupidly (IMO) that it makes it hard to have an identity as a jungler. Which is kind of a plus in that it accommodates so many playstyles but essentially removing that PVE element removes the core identity of many champions.
There are tonnes of quirky "off-meta" champs that get played jungle in solo queue. Competitive will never see more than a core group of champs played regardless of those changes IMO.
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On January 13 2018 03:39 JimmiC wrote: If any nunu buff goes through I will be a jungle Nunubot main next season!
No hands life is the life for me.
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On January 13 2018 03:37 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 03:17 Ansibled wrote: They AP change seems weird to me because it creates a situation where you're not sure who is the best person to blood boil which seems like something Riot would be against.
Makes me shudder at the thought of Nunu+Kayle or Nunu+Diana. Nashtor's Veigar baby.
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On January 13 2018 04:22 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 03:37 Gahlo wrote:On January 13 2018 03:17 Ansibled wrote: They AP change seems weird to me because it creates a situation where you're not sure who is the best person to blood boil which seems like something Riot would be against.
Makes me shudder at the thought of Nunu+Kayle or Nunu+Diana. Nashtor's Veigar baby. You keep that devil worship out of my ARAM, ya hear!
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On January 13 2018 04:16 AdsMoFro wrote: The biggest discrepancy in junglers in pro play has nothing to do with clear speed. It's dashes.Unless you mean standardizing clear speeds is done by removing dashes.
I don't see a reason for having every champion jungle. Do you see Cass/Elise bot lanes? Or Trynd Mid? Unlike lanes, there is no true matchup in jungle. It's inherently a PVE based role. If you standardise the PVE part of the role you're removing a huge part of the role and of the champions that play that role. Elise wouldn't be nearly as special if every AP champ with a stun can play jungle and clear easily and quickly. Her spiders become worthless for the most part, no longer providing unique play and then all these AP stun champs will just crowd her out and she'll never see play again. Sure you might get Annie jungle, but you'll lose a lot of the other original junglers and you will lose many people in the role in my opinion. Maining jungle sucks. Your role gets chopped and changed so often and so stupidly (IMO) that it makes it hard to have an identity as a jungler. Which is kind of a plus in that it accommodates so many playstyles but essentially removing that PVE element removes the core identity of many champions.
There are tonnes of quirky "off-meta" champs that get played jungle in solo queue. Competitive will never see more than a core group of champs played regardless of those changes IMO. If that is your approach to the jungle, and you are Riot, then stop selling me every year about how the changes are going to "promote diversity" or the like. Then rework the champs that currently have no place outside the jungle who do not fit the Elise-Lee-Jarvan paradigm.
As an aside I think elise would be much cooler, generally, as a solo-laner where the enemy pruning her spider count was a key element of the character.
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On January 13 2018 03:17 Ansibled wrote: They AP change seems weird to me because it creates a situation where you're not sure who is the best person to blood boil which seems like something Riot would be against.
Obviously Azir and Kayle are the best people to bloodboil now
Azir with that blood boil.. sheesh
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Tbh clutz, I think jungle is probably the most diverse role in the game currently.
There are at least 15 viable jungle champs right now with vastly different styles. You can basically pick AP/AD, tank/fighter/mage/assassin, and farming/ganking/inbetween and there is a viable champion that fits all three of those.
I don't think any other role can do that. Maybe top / support.
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Will be interested to see if that is what we see
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Even as someone who likes playing Nunu I feel like the blood boil change is a mistake . Bloated abilities lead to picking the best stat stick mentality, instead of Nunu is good here because he’s good with or against attack speed scaling carries.
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You can think that, but then you need to find me another, good way, to get Annie Jungle vs. Rammus Jungle vs. Tryndamere Jungle in LCS playoffs. You are asking Riot to completely rework their balancing philosophy. Not every champion is viable, or supposed to be, in every role. I personally don't care if Annie doesn't see jungle play, or even pro play, because by design she is supposed to be a noob friendly mage for people who start League.
If that is your approach to the jungle, and you are Riot, then stop selling me every year about how the changes are going to "promote diversity" or the like. Then rework the champs that currently have no place outside the jungle who do not fit the Elise-Lee-Jarvan paradigm.
Riot rotates champion meta. Champions are nerfed and buffed, items reworked, stuff falls out of meta, or becomes strong. Not all champions are a part of this cycle (like Annie, Garen) for other reasons, although they can still be played. And yes, some champions stay in the meta way too long, and that's either because Riot thinks they're still healthy balance-wise, or because they are popular champs. And again, it sounds like you think every champion should be able to jungle at least decently, which Riot has never tried to enforce, and honestly most players don't care about.
I'd argue that getting a farming advantage should be premised on the choice to farm, so you can still achieve it. As I already said, people already select junglers almost purely on utility in pro play, they just select from a small pool that provides that, plus with the ability to clear. I don't get your argument. First you say that AFK farming junglers is a problem, now you say that farming should be a choice, where choosing to AFK farm is a viable method of play. Besides, I feel like that is the current state of the game. If Master Yi is able to both farm and gets good ganks off, then the enemy team is to blame, he's not a good ganker and plenty of meta junglers dump on him. And if this were actually a viable way to play the game at higher elos, then we would be seeing it a lot more. Instead, the only Yi players past Diamond are OTP, who you might glimpse once every 100 games.
There are at least 15 viable jungle champs right now with vastly different styles. You can basically pick AP/AD, tank/fighter/mage/assassin, and farming/ganking/inbetween and there is a viable champion that fits all three of those. I think mid has the most diversity, it's ADC that is always lacking, mostly because it's a niche role where champions have to be specifically designed to DPS AA, no other roles trickle over. And sometimes Riot decides to rework ADC into other roles (Graves, Corki, even Varus to a certain extent).
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Mid depends on what’s on the line. It has the most playable champions even at a high level where bad shit gets punished, but if you are playing for money (High profile LCs match or playoffs ) there are 2 champs that are generally more stable than others, maybe 3
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Calling it now before it’s too late, although I’m a bit late already. Barring a buff to leathal tempo, spellbook will be the cookie cutter adc keystone before spring split ends.
I’ve thought this for a while but people are starting to play it now
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Brand feels pretty good right now. Played him mostly mid but his damage is really good.
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Honestly DoT magic dmg in general seems quite strong. People are buying Liandries all the time now, even on the likes of Xerath and Ori. And Brand is the king of that damage, especially against low range champions who he can hit with a full combo, chunks tanks for quite a lot of damage with passive.
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I have this mission "Prepare for battle" but it doesn't seem to get completed?
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On January 13 2018 20:59 DarkCore wrote: Honestly DoT magic dmg in general seems quite strong. People are buying Liandries all the time now, even on the likes of Xerath and Ori. And Brand is the king of that damage, especially against low range champions who he can hit with a full combo, chunks tanks for quite a lot of damage with passive. People building Adaptive against you or still autopiloting Visage?
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On January 13 2018 22:00 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 20:59 DarkCore wrote: Honestly DoT magic dmg in general seems quite strong. People are buying Liandries all the time now, even on the likes of Xerath and Ori. And Brand is the king of that damage, especially against low range champions who he can hit with a full combo, chunks tanks for quite a lot of damage with passive. People building Adaptive against you or still autopiloting Visage?
Haha, I was talking more from the perspective of an ADC. The burn on you from Liandries is quite terrifying, means that a support Xerath in the mid game can chunk you quite heavily with a single Q.
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On January 13 2018 09:11 Slusher wrote: Calling it now before it’s too late, although I’m a bit late already. Barring a buff to leathal tempo, spellbook will be the cookie cutter adc keystone before spring split ends.
I’ve thought this for a while but people are starting to play it now I've heard about speelbook being used on sivir. Is any other adc concerned at the moment?
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I just saw Qtpie use it. Thought he was trolling. Is that targons+fleetwork not the go to now?
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It is but you lose basically nothing good about precision by taking it as secondary, especially since inspiration doesn’t change the base stat bonus. Lowest possible sum cool downs and not having heal late Game is so sick. Ghost, tp, exhaust, barrier can all be situationally better than heal late Game.
People are starting to abuse tp on sivir but I think there are way more uses. And if your opponent is going fleet it’s sorta like the beat greed with greed option we saw at worlds meta.
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On January 13 2018 20:59 DarkCore wrote: Honestly DoT magic dmg in general seems quite strong. People are buying Liandries all the time now, even on the likes of Xerath and Ori. And Brand is the king of that damage, especially against low range champions who he can hit with a full combo, chunks tanks for quite a lot of damage with passive.
people bought liandries on ori for a long time
dont think its the DoT, just the stats and pen. DoT is just icing
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On January 14 2018 04:56 dsyxelic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2018 20:59 DarkCore wrote: Honestly DoT magic dmg in general seems quite strong. People are buying Liandries all the time now, even on the likes of Xerath and Ori. And Brand is the king of that damage, especially against low range champions who he can hit with a full combo, chunks tanks for quite a lot of damage with passive. people bought liandries on ori for a long time dont think its the DoT, just the stats and pen. DoT is just icing I swear I've been seeing it more, but I guess it could just be my own bias. I thought people only got Liandries on Ori when they needed to shred tanks some more, but now people get it to blow squishies up as well.
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I think void just isn't really good anymore or something along those lines. People go liandries instead.
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Void really shines against bruisers, but they suck ass right now so it doesn't matter.
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People realized dcap 2nd was almost always awful like 3 years ago, so mages who couldn’t use lich would Buy rylai 2nd. Riot )correctly imo) decided rylai being universally good was bad for the game. After rylai got nerfed people did the math and it showed Lyandry 2nd did more damage than ludens and only scaled slightly less and the rest is history.
Tl;dr it is generally better than ludens and therefore you see it a lot void is still the highest damage item in the game almost always after 30 min, 20 if they are melee heavy.
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They also buffed Liandries from 50AP to 80AP, while giving it a better build path and only increasing the cost by 100g.
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the season starts tonight or tomorrow night? For EU I mean
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On January 16 2018 01:49 M2 wrote: the season starts tonight or tomorrow night? For EU I mean China started last night. Korea starts tonight. EU starts Friday.
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On January 16 2018 01:51 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2018 01:49 M2 wrote: the season starts tonight or tomorrow night? For EU I mean China started last night. Korea starts tonight. EU starts Friday. I meant the soloQ season
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On January 16 2018 01:49 M2 wrote: the season starts tonight or tomorrow night? For EU I mean They said it might start at midnight but it could be delayed.
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I’ve been playing some Lisandra recently and I was thinking about her passive. When Liss was introduced stacking slows existed, since then it was changed so that only the strongest slow applies but not stacking. What if her passive was slowing a champion slowed by a teammate doubled the strength of their slow?
Idk just a random thought
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On January 16 2018 09:19 Slusher wrote: I’ve been playing some Lisandra recently and I was thinking about her passive. When Liss was introduced stacking slows existed, since then it was changed so that only the strongest slow applies but not stacking. What if her passive was slowing a champion slowed by a teammate doubled the strength of their slow?
Idk just a random thought
Would probably be cool, but I want to point out that doubling the strength of a 60% slow makes it an 80% slow.
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On January 16 2018 09:19 Slusher wrote: I’ve been playing some Lisandra recently and I was thinking about her passive. When Liss was introduced stacking slows existed, since then it was changed so that only the strongest slow applies but not stacking. What if her passive was slowing a champion slowed by a teammate doubled the strength of their slow?
Idk just a random thought Anything would be better than what she has now, currently it's just a fancy way to increase her mana regen. They could do a lot of interesting things with it.
I dont like the idea of what's usually a solo laner having a passive that rely entirely on a team member. Maybe slow effects from her stack? It would open up choices in builds, do you want the standard Hourglass/Protobelt engage/pick build or a GLP800/Rylai kite/chase monster.
Personally I think something like Lux' passive could be pretty interesting on her.
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I'd agree her passive has lost a lot of value and sheen. The other issue is how it seems like the kind of awesome hard engage she really synergizes with have generally been less common as a tactic. Kiting is more the default now, with engage comps more specifically designed to counter certain meta kiters. Although, Galio-Jarvan should have been her thing if she could lane against the meta tops recently. Even that epic smeb kennen play wasnt really a flank/hard engage, it was like "oh they all came to me, I guess I'll spring this disgusting trap" sort of thing.
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Idk if fiddling with her passive is enough to make her viable again. I think she's decent right now, you can definitely play her, she's just not meta and her numbers aren't super OP. She could use a light rework instead, like changing the descriptions of all her abilities a bit, while keeping their interactions pretty much the same.
A double slow sounds nice, fits with her theme too.
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My reasoning is just that her passive as is is as uninteresting as humanly possible especially with mana flow band existing.
Doubling slow is super thematic, rewards team play and is actually significantly weaker than it sounds therefore you could just change it without having to nerf her other skills.
She’s high mid tier at worst already, I would imagine this is a mild buff that just makes her more rewarding
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When is the clash mode starting? is there an info on that?
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On January 17 2018 07:38 M2 wrote: When is the clash mode starting? is there an info on that?
Not as far as I know. But I'd expect it to start up next month. Hopefully, it's a full release for all regions too!
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Kinda nervous for the Swain update reveal. I don’t really play him anymore so it’s unfair for me to say don’t change him. But he was one of my first favorite champions when I started so I hope they don’t straight up remove him from the game like Galio and Graves.
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I've always liked Swain but never really enjoyed some of his gameplay. If they do a WW level rework then it'll be pretty cool. A Sion/Galio level is a bit disappointing. Hopefully they learnt their lesson with WW reception.
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You didn't enjoy Sion update? I thought it was pretty spot on, he was terribly designed beforehand, as my early AP Sion noob days can attest.
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I think his point was that new Sion was a completely new champion while new Warwick is like old Warwick but better.
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Yea I play a ton of Sion top(playing tanks is so much less stressful) these days but I do miss my old days of AP sion mid rushing mobos derping around. It was just hilariously fun. If they could have made 2 versions of Sion, the one now and an AP version I'd have been happy. Instead they released a new champ called Sion while deleting the old one ;(
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AP Sion was the shit.
Something about one shotting a wave, going boy and oneshoting the ADC and support by dfging one, drubbing the other, and popping your shield on them both was incredibly fun. Fuck you Janna <3!
To this day that is still my mid play style. Who needs to lane when you can be a psuedo-jungler. Haha.
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Yea like new graves is one of the coolest champions they’ve ever made, but why did he have to delete old graves
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At least his lore stayed the same.
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I think so, I enjoy him in the jungle. I agree with above I wish he showed up as a new champ but I do like him.
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On January 19 2018 09:23 JimmiC wrote: I think so, I enjoy him in the jungle. I agree with above I wish he showed up as a new champ but I do like him.
He did. It was Jhin but they shoehorned his play into Graves. RIP ADC Graves
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Am I just too big a noob to realize how "bad" top lane is? I see all this complaining 24/7 from reddit about top lane being so bad , how there are no options, how little impact you have on solo q and how it feels bad it is to have stuff like camille needing comet. Yet in my experience absolutely none of that is true. Is it just because I'm only mid gold now(Placed G3 which I guess isn't bad since I was G3 before after going 8-2)?.
I'm so dam confused by this stuff. I get the impression it's like the old "ADC2017" shit where they just raging over nothing because they morons. That could be completely wrong, it could just be an issue of being not high enough to feel the problems. So any of you good players know what's up?
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On January 19 2018 21:07 Numy wrote: Am I just too big a noob to realize how "bad" top lane is? I see all this complaining 24/7 from reddit about top lane being so bad , how there are no options, how little impact you have on solo q and how it feels bad it is to have stuff like camille needing comet. Yet in my experience absolutely none of that is true. Is it just because I'm only mid gold now(Placed G3 which I guess isn't bad since I was G3 before after going 8-2)?.
I'm so dam confused by this stuff. I get the impression it's like the old "ADC2017" shit where they just raging over nothing because they morons. That could be completely wrong, it could just be an issue of being not high enough to feel the problems. So any of you good players know what's up?
Top lane isn't bad. It's the quintessential bruisers who are bad. And they've been bad for a very long time. It's not a new thing. It's just that they now have a "champion of bruiser rights" in Hashinshin regularly reaching front page.
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Fiora, Jax, Camille, Riven are all good right now though? Not the best of the best but fair reasonably well at high levels from the stats I'm looking at. Nasus is actually very good in yolo Q it seems. Illaoi as well. So who are the quintessential bruisers that are so bad?
edit: Hell I'm reading stuff about how top lane is now just a "counterpick lane". Yet it's always been that way? Only time it wasn't when tanks were super strong so you just blind a tank without worry. You always had you "safe blind pick" tank laner then you "counter pick their top" ones. What on earth is going on. Has everyone just lost their minds.
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Probably just a case of every other lane has complained a ton now its our turn! It seems the same as always to me.
Edit: I just read a little of it, lots of GP complaining and I get that he is a pain. He q's you all day with klepto getting free mana pots, then gets sheen, then its like playing panth early game and old gp late. But I just ban him every game.
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Top lane is stupid just remove it from the map imo.
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On January 19 2018 23:44 Ansibled wrote: Top lane is stupid just remove it from the map imo.
Yes, also jungle and also bot lane, just put everyone mid and have them fight there. Also make all the champ picking random, with maybe up to two re-rolls.
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On January 19 2018 22:33 AdsMoFro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2018 21:07 Numy wrote: Am I just too big a noob to realize how "bad" top lane is? I see all this complaining 24/7 from reddit about top lane being so bad , how there are no options, how little impact you have on solo q and how it feels bad it is to have stuff like camille needing comet. Yet in my experience absolutely none of that is true. Is it just because I'm only mid gold now(Placed G3 which I guess isn't bad since I was G3 before after going 8-2)?.
I'm so dam confused by this stuff. I get the impression it's like the old "ADC2017" shit where they just raging over nothing because they morons. That could be completely wrong, it could just be an issue of being not high enough to feel the problems. So any of you good players know what's up? Top lane isn't bad. It's the quintessential bruisers who are bad. And they've been bad for a very long time. It's not a new thing. It's just that they now have a "champion of bruiser rights" in Hashinshin regularly reaching front page.
Hashinshin also shitposts regularly on the EUIV subreddit on balance, if you ever want to see him in a different environment, feel free to come and watch.
Top laners complaining probably all have old mentalities. Like WingsofDeath, last time I watched him he still seemed to think that sitting in top lane all day, pushing towers and killing the enemy laner while ignoring what's happening on the map would magically result in an over 50% win rate.
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Wait how does he have enough time to play LoL and EUIV on tryhard level
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That is exactly what I was thinking when I first saw his posts, but if you follow him on Twitch (which I did by accident because I saw a big EUIV channel), then you'll notice he plays both quite regularly. If I remember right, he just plays games all day, he's streamed almost every day this month so far.
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Why did they make his model all edgelord. Looks weird.
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Not gonna lie, Swain looks more like Vlad than Vlad does himself. If he didn't have bird wings, he'd look like a demon lord.
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I haven't even started reading yet, I clicked the link and now there's a picture and... I kind of want to close it already.
So, after reading: exit the whole raven theme, the badass cripple, the visual identity, the whole DoT/attrition thing, and hello generic solemn edgelord, "demon" "theme", and new minigame?
What were the last visual reworks, in order? Swain, Varus, Galio, Warwick? Aside from WW, that's a pretty bad track record between the campy "movie humorous superhero" and the edgelords (not that Varus had much going for him initially, obviously, thanks PA writing skills). Ironically, the one time they didn't go for the emo edgelord thing was for the one who actually had a mopey and conflicted backstory.
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He looks like Lucius Malfoy
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its hard to say without playing him but I'm not pumped. It is odd that the bird thing is completely gone. I enjoyed how his root worked ti was different then most. same with his old Q was different then most abilities. I'm not very excited about this rework. And I played a lot of old Swain, so mabye this is for people who didnt? not sure.
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Man. It sounds like they got rid of the bird. The bird was the best part of the champ and of the kit.
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United States37500 Posts
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