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On April 10 2018 04:04 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2018 02:41 Jek wrote:Love they are randomly buffing Sion on PBE, the "nerf" was more of a bugfix and only hit people that cannot land skillshots. On April 09 2018 19:11 M2 wrote:On April 09 2018 17:34 evilfatsh1t wrote: NERF CONQUEROR is conquer an issue? on whom? jax? Nobody. It just means you can actually kill tanks and toplane is again action packed. :3 It was action packed before as well, tanks sucked outside of Sion and still do. Guess that's why tanks where picked in nearly every game in all regions finals.
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On April 10 2018 08:10 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2018 04:04 Numy wrote:On April 10 2018 02:41 Jek wrote:Love they are randomly buffing Sion on PBE, the "nerf" was more of a bugfix and only hit people that cannot land skillshots. On April 09 2018 19:11 M2 wrote:On April 09 2018 17:34 evilfatsh1t wrote: NERF CONQUEROR is conquer an issue? on whom? jax? Nobody. It just means you can actually kill tanks and toplane is again action packed. :3 It was action packed before as well, tanks sucked outside of Sion and still do. Guess that's why tanks where picked in nearly every game in all regions finals. Competitive play is not the same as solo Q. Unless you one of those professional players those stats are meaningless. It's like Galio being a highly contested pick in comp play doesn't translate to solo q. Every metric in solo Q since the start of the season has shown that the only tanks be played are Ornn and Sion but after the Ornn nerfs he isn't seen much. Malphite has picked up a little bit but top lane is mostly carry orientated heroes. Gangplank for example has been one of if not the best top laner since the start of the season.
The narrative that top lane was just tank fest is unfortunately just fiction. If you wanted to have that kind of narrative you'd have to look maybe a year to a year and a half ago.
In other news they already nerfed Irelia so much. That kind of sucks especially when there's a stupid bug that could be growing her power by a fair amount.
ps: It's quite interesting you mention regional finals as evidence of tank fest while ignoring LPL and LCK which show a far more carry orientated slant. Speaks to how Western teams aren't comfortable with having a damage orientated top lane for the most part. G2 were in this position which is partly why Fnatic target banned him so heavily forcing a more passive stance that G2 didn't necessarily want out of Wunder. Context is important.
Top lane from a diversity of playstyle stand point has been possibly the best it's ever been this season Bottom side of the map may have a larger impact but that's another type of metric to look at.
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The narrative isn't that toplane is nothing but tanks, it is that tanks can stonewall the lane very easy in nearly all match ups making nothing happen unless the jungler is there leaving the "better jungler win" feel whenever there's a tank involved. Unless you're fed there's zero counterplay to a Sion, Cho'Gath or <inserttankwithwaveclear> nearly insta-clearing the wave despite having build nothing but defensive items, Conqueror is a step in the right direction to solve the tanks option to brute force anti-fun on you.
Gangplank, Swain and Camille are sort of oddballs since they are perfectly fine with the farmfest as they are just a walking timebomb.
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So let me get this straight. Tanks are not that strong, they do not have a high pick rate either yet they can completely negate the other top laner with no effort? If this is true then it implies tanks are masters at laning phase but fall off rapidly post laning otherwise they would be the dominant force in league. That doesn't sound right.
If you look at what's been strong historically in top lane this season. GP, Camille, Fiora, Illaoi, Sion, Ornn, Vlad, Kled,panth it paints a weird picture. One where you hear "tanks stonewalling everything making toplane bad" but then they don't have corresponding playrates or winrates or even mastery rates. So what's going on? Cho for instance is one of the easiest to abuse tanks in the early game.
So is this a case of a minor class of heroes that aren't particularly strong having such adverse play patterns that it burns this into peoples memories? It's really interesting why this kind of thing has happened when supporting evidence is just not there. Placebo? Marketing from Hashinshin types?
edit: I wonder if it's playstyles changing while people refuse to change? Do the better players in league at the top just shift the way they play to make their post laning impact highest which means tanks become weaker hence why the evidence isn't there? Is it a self correcting metagame thing?
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On April 09 2018 19:11 M2 wrote:is conquer an issue? on whom? jax?
every game i played jax top lane conqueror gave less damage than aftershock would probably have given seemed pathetic. against super resist heavy tanks maybe it's good though.
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On April 12 2018 00:05 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2018 19:11 M2 wrote:On April 09 2018 17:34 evilfatsh1t wrote: NERF CONQUEROR is conquer an issue? on whom? jax? every game i played jax top lane conqueror gave less damage than aftershock would probably have given seemed pathetic. against super resist heavy tanks maybe it's good though. Conqueror tooltip only tracks the true damage dealt. It also gives some bonus ad (10 ad at level 1 is clearly relevant) but we don't know how much extra damage we got from this. I don't play toplane so I can't comment on how good the rune feel. As an ADC main, coup de grace is dealing less extra damage than cutdown by a large margin but stats suggest both options are about equal. Coup de grace gives extra AD on takedowns which probably makes up for it.
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On April 11 2018 23:07 Numy wrote: So let me get this straight. Tanks are not that strong, they do not have a high pick rate either yet they can completely negate the other top laner with no effort? If this is true then it implies tanks are masters at laning phase but fall off rapidly post laning otherwise they would be the dominant force in league. That doesn't sound right.
If you look at what's been strong historically in top lane this season. GP, Camille, Fiora, Illaoi, Sion, Ornn, Vlad, Kled,panth it paints a weird picture. One where you hear "tanks stonewalling everything making toplane bad" but then they don't have corresponding playrates or winrates or even mastery rates. So what's going on? Cho for instance is one of the easiest to abuse tanks in the early game.
So is this a case of a minor class of heroes that aren't particularly strong having such adverse play patterns that it burns this into peoples memories? It's really interesting why this kind of thing has happened when supporting evidence is just not there. Placebo? Marketing from Hashinshin types?
edit: I wonder if it's playstyles changing while people refuse to change? Do the better players in league at the top just shift the way they play to make their post laning impact highest which means tanks become weaker hence why the evidence isn't there? Is it a self correcting metagame thing?
Somtimes it would be nice if people actually played the game. When everyone complains the reason they aren't overrepresented could maybe be that only few people enjoy them? Lee Sin is still the most played jungler while he is quite shit.
The problem is not that I cannot play other champions anymore. The problem is that the autofilled toplaner can go Sion top and waveclear all day, maybe even die a few times and he still has decent impact on the teamfights while being braindead. It's very similiar to why the Janna e-girl meme exists you basicly do nothing and still perform decently.
Also about toplane this season being about those champs. GP was fucking busted at the start (and still is good) and is probably even worse than tanks to play against. Camille is the one other champion that is not a tank that is picked regularly. Fiora is fucking terrible and loses almost every game she gets picked. Illaoi was literally only there to counter tanks(Ornn). Vlad was pretty much instantly nerfed by removing that gp10 items and nobody plays him after that. Who even plays Kled lol?
Only other pick there is thats not a tank (also there arent even many more tanks that get picked in comp at least) is Gnar.
What gets picked toplane is so different from what is actually good in Soloq, so many Yasuo, Riven, etc one tricks running around the stats really get fucked by things like that.
If I go ADC/Mid I can't think really of a champion that I would want my autofilled guy on. Meanwhile in Top everyone would be like "go tank".
Toplane being the easiest to gank also makes gold dependent champs even worse and people will flame you if you don't go play a tank when the jungler picks something else.
Tanks being quite strong with 0 resources might be a result of the laneswap meta where champs had to work with 0 farm. It could also be because while everyone complains about tanks people still always want one in their team so as soon as we see metas without them they get buffed back.
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On April 11 2018 23:07 Numy wrote: So let me get this straight. Tanks are not that strong, they do not have a high pick rate either yet they can completely negate the other top laner with no effort? If this is true then it implies tanks are masters at laning phase but fall off rapidly post laning otherwise they would be the dominant force in league. That doesn't sound right. Very strong laners that fall off compared to their opponent isn't really that unheard of. The Jax vs Renekton matches years ago would be a prime example.
On April 11 2018 23:07 Numy wrote: If you look at what's been strong historically in top lane this season. GP, Camille, Fiora, Illaoi, Sion, Ornn, Vlad, Kled,panth it paints a weird picture. One where you hear "tanks stonewalling everything making toplane bad" but then they don't have corresponding playrates or winrates or even mastery rates. So what's going on? Cho for instance is one of the easiest to abuse tanks in the early game. Cant you see what they all have in common? They are all either tanks or good against tanks.
On April 11 2018 23:07 Numy wrote: So is this a case of a minor class of heroes that aren't particularly strong having such adverse play patterns that it burns this into peoples memories? It's really interesting why this kind of thing has happened when supporting evidence is just not there. Placebo? Marketing from Hashinshin types?
Placebo? Hashinshin? Come on. Anyone that have played against perma-shoving immovable tanks know how horrible anti-fun it is if you're not playing a champion that are well equiped to deal with it. Being shoved in by champs like Gnar, Jayce or Vlad is different it feels like an actual interactive game where outplays are way more likely to happen.
I suppose I would agree with it being a minor class that have a horrible pattern so it forms a bias. But as a filthy Janna main I'm probably not one to complain about horrible play patterns. :^)
On April 11 2018 23:07 Numy wrote: edit: I wonder if it's playstyles changing while people refuse to change? Do the better players in league at the top just shift the way they play to make their post laning impact highest which means tanks become weaker hence why the evidence isn't there? Is it a self correcting metagame thing? I believe it's a bit of it all.
The better players play to win and just go with/search for the most efficient way to accomplish it at that given patch while the more casual value their entertainment higher than trends.
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Anyone doing this clash thing this weekend? I'm interested NA top plat last few seasons only gold right now but have not played serious or much, Low plat is fair of my skill level.
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I think you have to be ranked in flex to play idk I only glanced at it
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On April 12 2018 01:11 loSleb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2018 23:07 Numy wrote: So let me get this straight. Tanks are not that strong, they do not have a high pick rate either yet they can completely negate the other top laner with no effort? If this is true then it implies tanks are masters at laning phase but fall off rapidly post laning otherwise they would be the dominant force in league. That doesn't sound right.
If you look at what's been strong historically in top lane this season. GP, Camille, Fiora, Illaoi, Sion, Ornn, Vlad, Kled,panth it paints a weird picture. One where you hear "tanks stonewalling everything making toplane bad" but then they don't have corresponding playrates or winrates or even mastery rates. So what's going on? Cho for instance is one of the easiest to abuse tanks in the early game.
So is this a case of a minor class of heroes that aren't particularly strong having such adverse play patterns that it burns this into peoples memories? It's really interesting why this kind of thing has happened when supporting evidence is just not there. Placebo? Marketing from Hashinshin types?
edit: I wonder if it's playstyles changing while people refuse to change? Do the better players in league at the top just shift the way they play to make their post laning impact highest which means tanks become weaker hence why the evidence isn't there? Is it a self correcting metagame thing? Somtimes it would be nice if people actually played the game. When everyone complains the reason they aren't overrepresented could maybe be that only few people enjoy them? Lee Sin is still the most played jungler while he is quite shit. The problem is not that I cannot play other champions anymore. The problem is that the autofilled toplaner can go Sion top and waveclear all day, maybe even die a few times and he still has decent impact on the teamfights while being braindead. It's very similiar to why the Janna e-girl meme exists you basicly do nothing and still perform decently. Also about toplane this season being about those champs. GP was fucking busted at the start (and still is good) and is probably even worse than tanks to play against. Camille is the one other champion that is not a tank that is picked regularly. Fiora is fucking terrible and loses almost every game she gets picked. Illaoi was literally only there to counter tanks(Ornn). Vlad was pretty much instantly nerfed by removing that gp10 items and nobody plays him after that. Who even plays Kled lol? Only other pick there is thats not a tank (also there arent even many more tanks that get picked in comp at least) is Gnar. What gets picked toplane is so different from what is actually good in Soloq, so many Yasuo, Riven, etc one tricks running around the stats really get fucked by things like that. If I go ADC/Mid I can't think really of a champion that I would want my autofilled guy on. Meanwhile in Top everyone would be like "go tank". Toplane being the easiest to gank also makes gold dependent champs even worse and people will flame you if you don't go play a tank when the jungler picks something else. Tanks being quite strong with 0 resources might be a result of the laneswap meta where champs had to work with 0 farm. It could also be because while everyone complains about tanks people still always want one in their team so as soon as we see metas without them they get buffed back. You know a thought I had reading this was that maybe it's far simplier than any of this. You mentioned Sion there but noone else. Everyone mentions Sion. I mentioned Sion. Is it tanks being strong of tank Sion being insanely strong? Sion is the only tank that's been at the top throughout this season. He's the only relevant tank. He's a monster in Comp play as well. Ornn and Cho aren't particularly great in solo Q, Cho is easily abused and takes awhile to get to his immovable phase, he's situationally a beast which is fine for a hero. Ornn has a stronger laning phase but is far harder to use later.
What I'm trying to get at, is this really a tank issue? If Sion was nerfed right now to the gutter would this conversation exist? I'm not really sure if you trying to take a jab at me for that first line or something else.
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On April 12 2018 02:58 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2018 01:11 loSleb wrote:On April 11 2018 23:07 Numy wrote: So let me get this straight. Tanks are not that strong, they do not have a high pick rate either yet they can completely negate the other top laner with no effort? If this is true then it implies tanks are masters at laning phase but fall off rapidly post laning otherwise they would be the dominant force in league. That doesn't sound right.
If you look at what's been strong historically in top lane this season. GP, Camille, Fiora, Illaoi, Sion, Ornn, Vlad, Kled,panth it paints a weird picture. One where you hear "tanks stonewalling everything making toplane bad" but then they don't have corresponding playrates or winrates or even mastery rates. So what's going on? Cho for instance is one of the easiest to abuse tanks in the early game.
So is this a case of a minor class of heroes that aren't particularly strong having such adverse play patterns that it burns this into peoples memories? It's really interesting why this kind of thing has happened when supporting evidence is just not there. Placebo? Marketing from Hashinshin types?
edit: I wonder if it's playstyles changing while people refuse to change? Do the better players in league at the top just shift the way they play to make their post laning impact highest which means tanks become weaker hence why the evidence isn't there? Is it a self correcting metagame thing? Somtimes it would be nice if people actually played the game. When everyone complains the reason they aren't overrepresented could maybe be that only few people enjoy them? Lee Sin is still the most played jungler while he is quite shit. The problem is not that I cannot play other champions anymore. The problem is that the autofilled toplaner can go Sion top and waveclear all day, maybe even die a few times and he still has decent impact on the teamfights while being braindead. It's very similiar to why the Janna e-girl meme exists you basicly do nothing and still perform decently. Also about toplane this season being about those champs. GP was fucking busted at the start (and still is good) and is probably even worse than tanks to play against. Camille is the one other champion that is not a tank that is picked regularly. Fiora is fucking terrible and loses almost every game she gets picked. Illaoi was literally only there to counter tanks(Ornn). Vlad was pretty much instantly nerfed by removing that gp10 items and nobody plays him after that. Who even plays Kled lol? Only other pick there is thats not a tank (also there arent even many more tanks that get picked in comp at least) is Gnar. What gets picked toplane is so different from what is actually good in Soloq, so many Yasuo, Riven, etc one tricks running around the stats really get fucked by things like that. If I go ADC/Mid I can't think really of a champion that I would want my autofilled guy on. Meanwhile in Top everyone would be like "go tank". Toplane being the easiest to gank also makes gold dependent champs even worse and people will flame you if you don't go play a tank when the jungler picks something else. Tanks being quite strong with 0 resources might be a result of the laneswap meta where champs had to work with 0 farm. It could also be because while everyone complains about tanks people still always want one in their team so as soon as we see metas without them they get buffed back. You know a thought I had reading this was that maybe it's far simplier than any of this. You mentioned Sion there but noone else. Everyone mentions Sion. I mentioned Sion. Is it tanks being strong of tank Sion being insanely strong? Sion is the only tank that's been at the top throughout this season. He's the only relevant tank. He's a monster in Comp play as well. Ornn and Cho aren't particularly great in solo Q, Cho is easily abused and takes awhile to get to his immovable phase, he's situationally a beast which is fine for a hero. Ornn has a stronger laning phase but is far harder to use later. What I'm trying to get at, is this really a tank issue? If Sion was nerfed right now to the gutter would this conversation exist? I'm not really sure if you trying to take a jab at me for that first line or something else. Sion is just the current worst offender. Riot have been shoving this down our throat ever since they decided champs like Fizz and Ekko are not allowed to be played like bruisers.
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Sion is an example of how an individual champion's kit can supersede the low priority of his champion class: tanks aren't super strong right now, but Sion has so many things going for him that he gets picked often.
I think tanks are in a good position, the problem is that their counters are pretty strong right now. GP, Camille, Fiora all love a good farm fest because there comes a point where they can blow up the tank and split push like no tomorrow. If they get ahead of the tank early, it gets even worse, but if they fall behind, then in most matchups all it means is that they'll have to play safe and wait for the 30 minute mark.
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Tanks aren't strong, LCK doesn't play tanks, hard lol.
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On April 14 2018 19:14 loSleb wrote:Tanks aren't strong, LCK doesn't play tanks, hard lol. Well, I see two adcs and full utility/tank morgana hahaha
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The clash is awesome as fuck.
Also; I actually think building trinity force on Xin Zhao is straight up bad. Everyone thinks its the build, but like... idk man. You actually do just practically as much damage to squishies if you can hit your W with Black cleaver, you're tankier, and you get the same sticking power. All you lose is Attack speed which is kinda whatever on melees.
For shits and giggles, say you are level 11 with just trinity force or just black cleaver. lets assume you get a full Xin rotation off (W + E + R + autoQautoauto) assuming phase rush without celerity / water walking:
With Trinity force you do 85.75 more damage WITHOUT taking into account resistances or armor shred. Realistically, you do ~10% armor shred with cleaver. You also have 150 HP Now you have to consider that your ADC is shooting that thing. On a squishy champ, its very close. Against a tanky ass champion, Cleaver hard out preforms Trinity force.
Thing is, thats pretty damn close in effective combat power on a squishy champ; but you have to consider that junglers average around 200 gold per minute without taking into account starting gold or map objectives; that means you are getting cleaver 733/200 = 3.7 minutes sooner in the game than trinity force. And when you would have trinity you have Cleaver + Cleaver + kindlegem or cleaver + 2 cloth armor. If you get Cleaver & 2 longs swords cleaver actually does 55 damage more.
I think if you just rush Trinity + Steraks then trinity better, but like, I dont think you can build Warrior + Trinity + Steraks and not die immediately.
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On April 15 2018 12:54 iCanada wrote:The clash is awesome as fuck. Also; I actually think building trinity force on Xin Zhao is straight up bad. Everyone thinks its the build, but like... idk man. You actually do just practically as much damage to squishies if you can hit your W with Black cleaver, you're tankier, and you get the same sticking power. All you lose is Attack speed which is kinda whatever on melees. For shits and giggles, say you are level 11 with just trinity force or just black cleaver. lets assume you get a full Xin rotation off (W + E + R + autoQautoauto) assuming phase rush without celerity / water walking: With Trinity force you do 85.75 more damage WITHOUT taking into account resistances or armor shred. Realistically, you do ~10% armor shred with cleaver. You also have 150 HP Now you have to consider that your ADC is shooting that thing. On a squishy champ, its very close. Against a tanky ass champion, Cleaver hard out preforms Trinity force. Thing is, thats pretty damn close in effective combat power on a squishy champ; but you have to consider that junglers average around 200 gold per minute without taking into account starting gold or map objectives; that means you are getting cleaver 733/200 = 3.7 minutes sooner in the game than trinity force. And when you would have trinity you have Cleaver + Cleaver + kindlegem or cleaver + 2 cloth armor. If you get Cleaver & 2 longs swords cleaver actually does 55 damage more. I think if you just rush Trinity + Steraks then trinity better, but like, I dont think you can build Warrior + Trinity + Steraks and not die immediately. Some of the triforce budget comes from attack speed and movement speed, which are good stats when Q takes several attacks to proc.
That damage also doesn't take into account the extra second or so it takes to do the full combo with cleaver instead of triforce from the attack speed difference.
I would agree that triforce is hard to build out of the jungle unless you're fed or okay with being useless for a while.
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On April 15 2018 14:01 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2018 12:54 iCanada wrote:The clash is awesome as fuck. Also; I actually think building trinity force on Xin Zhao is straight up bad. Everyone thinks its the build, but like... idk man. You actually do just practically as much damage to squishies if you can hit your W with Black cleaver, you're tankier, and you get the same sticking power. All you lose is Attack speed which is kinda whatever on melees. For shits and giggles, say you are level 11 with just trinity force or just black cleaver. lets assume you get a full Xin rotation off (W + E + R + autoQautoauto) assuming phase rush without celerity / water walking: With Trinity force you do 85.75 more damage WITHOUT taking into account resistances or armor shred. Realistically, you do ~10% armor shred with cleaver. You also have 150 HP Now you have to consider that your ADC is shooting that thing. On a squishy champ, its very close. Against a tanky ass champion, Cleaver hard out preforms Trinity force. Thing is, thats pretty damn close in effective combat power on a squishy champ; but you have to consider that junglers average around 200 gold per minute without taking into account starting gold or map objectives; that means you are getting cleaver 733/200 = 3.7 minutes sooner in the game than trinity force. And when you would have trinity you have Cleaver + Cleaver + kindlegem or cleaver + 2 cloth armor. If you get Cleaver & 2 longs swords cleaver actually does 55 damage more. I think if you just rush Trinity + Steraks then trinity better, but like, I dont think you can build Warrior + Trinity + Steraks and not die immediately. Some of the triforce budget comes from attack speed and movement speed, which are good stats when Q takes several attacks to proc. That damage also doesn't take into account the extra second or so it takes to do the full combo with cleaver instead of triforce from the attack speed difference. I would agree that triforce is hard to build out of the jungle unless you're fed or okay with being useless for a while.
The difference in attack speed is real small. Its just 2 attack cool downs, and your already have +40% attack speed from E. You also get the move-speed from Black Cleaver. Difference of 1.363 attacks per second and 1.129 attacks per second.
The difference is 1.54s for the auto attack portions vs 1.72s for the auto attack portion @ level 11.
I think if you are fed enough for triforce to be better than Cleaver, you legit could build like Nashors tooth + Deathcap and it be K.
http://na.op.gg/champion/xinzhao/statistics/jungle
Thing is, literally everyone is building trinity and not BC.
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