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Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
Non-League of Legends discussion should go in the LiquidLegends Lounge.
Certain topics are blacklisted from LoL General Discussion and they include:- "Elo hell"
- The Tribunal
- Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
Additionally, the TL LoL Ten Commandments are available for you to reference if you have any questions about this subforum.
Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions. Lastly, confine QQing and bragging to their respective threads.
Patch 8.8: Live on April. 18th, 2018
+ Show Spoiler [Previous GD Threads & Patch Notes] +
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Damn, Galio keeps getting hit with that nerf baton.
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I think the Nautilus buffs might be pretty meaningful. For a tank he has pretty big AP ratios, including 75% on his Q. A lower cool down and a bigger mana pools means he can poke more often and get more damage in return for building AP.
Maybe something like shurelias, Hourglass, veil, morello, torment to get a decent amount of resistances and HP and still be tanky but with enouph AP to put the ratios to work. If you get sorc shoes then you probably have enouph Mpen and AP to insta pop squishies late game, while still being tanky enouph to do your job while you wait for someone to misposition.
Not sure how much that capability is needed or if it fits in any natural team comps though.
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They nerfed Janna W by 5 damage at every rank, that's got to be the biggest troll nerf I've ever seen, it's like a 7% dmg nerf at lv 1 W and like 2% at lv 5.
Lethal Tempo buffs are interesting: It's still a bad mastery because it can be punished incredibly hard since it has a ramp up time. But now it gives utterly ridiculous AS.
Homestart change means people are going to ping for invades even more in my game, since someone who leaves base late can still quickly make it to the river.
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On April 18 2018 06:37 AdsMoFro wrote: Damn, Galio keeps getting hit with that nerf baton. He exists in a niche that pros desperately crave and Riot doesn't like, so he will keep getting played till Lulu, Ori, or another supportive mage becomes superior.
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Yet another Ryze rework now on PBE lul
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On April 18 2018 07:46 Gahlo wrote: Yet another Ryze rework now on PBE lul
All I want from a Ryze rework is for them to fix his feel and make him a bit more noob friendly. I used to really enjoy the mindlessness of Ryze and his lategame. The ult change and the weird mark thing (kind of like Leblanc) were just huge misses for me.
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On April 18 2018 06:52 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2018 06:37 AdsMoFro wrote: Damn, Galio keeps getting hit with that nerf baton. He exists in a niche that pros desperately crave and Riot doesn't like, so he will keep getting played till Lulu, Ori, or another supportive mage becomes superior.
I feel he was way more interesting than when a Lulu top or mid became meta.
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On April 18 2018 08:23 AdsMoFro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2018 06:52 cLutZ wrote:On April 18 2018 06:37 AdsMoFro wrote: Damn, Galio keeps getting hit with that nerf baton. He exists in a niche that pros desperately crave and Riot doesn't like, so he will keep getting played till Lulu, Ori, or another supportive mage becomes superior. I feel he was way more interesting than when a Lulu top or mid became meta. Being honest, Lulu solo lanes are among my favorite comps in history. I don't really enjoy semiglobals aside from TF, and thats because his is/was so risky to execute.
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I enjoyed playing lulu solo lane but watching it wasn't as entertaining. Except for faker.
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I almost posted that exact thing
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On April 18 2018 11:45 AdsMoFro wrote: I enjoyed playing lulu solo lane but watching it wasn't as entertaining. Except for faker. Galio is even less exciting (unless you like his semi globals and ability to roam for free (I don't as stated above). The ult is slow and telegraphed (a complaint I've before said about various Gragas tweaks) and the rest is kinda slow.
Was Lulu mid a crutch for baddies? Yes, but never to the level of Galio and A-Sol, and also, people forget she dominated partially because Ori had been sent to the wilderness (for her standards) and they had already rid us of Soraka and Janna midlane viability.
TBH, if you want to stop midlane support picks from feeling stale, its.prolly a good idea to buff some/rework some to be.more utility. Its clearly a niche pros think is needed to make some comps work, and also as a way to reduce risk/variance, particularly in losing to a single mistake against a worse team.
I mean, people pick Karma mid still. She's pretty terrible at utilizing levels and farm. That is how desperate teams get.
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Actually affter watching a lot of LCK this last week I've come to a conclusion.
Tank tops aren't OP compared to Fighters one to one, same with supportive mids. The problem is ADC is the most important role by such a large margin doing anything other than maximizing their damage is less effective including doing damage yourself.
It's the same reason Conq ended up having no effect on the pro meta, it's strong but a free hitting adc is just stronger.
tl;dr the only way to curtail supportive mids is to nerf adc
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On April 18 2018 13:07 Slusher wrote: Actually affter watching a lot of LCK this last week I've come to a conclusion.
Tank tops aren't OP compared to Fighters one to one, same with supportive mids. The problem is ADC is the most important role by such a large margin doing anything other than maximizing their damage is less effective including doing damage yourself.
It's the same reason Conq ended up having no effect on the pro meta, it's strong but a free hitting adc is just stronger.
tl;dr the only way to curtail supportive mids is to nerf adc
Ahhh, you can't tell adcs they op, they get all whiney.
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I totally agree, if there is a scenario where they use an offseason to rework basically everything and make melee hardcarries with crazy powercurves a thing. But they wont do that, so we will have "Marksmen" because you need a safelane and you need a massive rework for a ranged AD character to not be good in the role that gets the gold from the safelane.
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honestly my early thought I had today was what if zeal items had a portion unique passive like lost chapter cdr? just a thought but could be really bad too haven't thought it all the way through
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On April 18 2018 14:40 Slusher wrote: honestly my early thought I had today was what if zeal items had a portion unique passive like lost chapter cdr? just a thought but could be really bad too haven't thought it all the way through
Its not like double zeal has been standard for all that long. It used to be fairly common to got IE/BT>PD>LW>BT/IE and possibly sell boots for an AS item at 6.
The problem lies with the enforced 2v2 lane, lack of cheap in-lane regen, and lack of a way for characters that are down massively in CS/EXP (due to poor laning) to be even at an expected (and relevant) time in the game. Lets just assume a Wukong + Leona lane loses by 50 CS and 2 lvls by 10 mins to Cait/Zyra, on average. When does the Wukong lane catch up? Never. And catching up isn't enough, if 50CS is average at 10, it means that 75 at 20 should mean you are at an advantage. Does that exist? Not really, it only exists at the extreme lategame, and even then you still can win with an easier comp that has range because kiting has been OP for a long time.
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Galio is even less exciting (unless you like his semi globals and ability to roam for free (I don't as stated above). The ult is slow and telegraphed (a complaint I've before said about various Gragas tweaks) and the rest is kinda slow.
That's what I like about him. He feels like a juggernaut lumbering onto you. I really like his kit tbh.
tl;dr the only way to curtail supportive mids is to nerf adc
And support. Supports were designed with kits that got no gold and had to be useful. And now it's not unheard of for them to have 3 items with insane utility. All those items got mega-buffed so that support was more "interesting" to play and now that effects even jungle, which in competitive is a role that builds the 3 OP items (Vow, Convergence, Locket) to buff your ADC along with the support. So, of course, when you have OP items that buff your ADC on two champs, then you're going to have an insanely strong ADC. How's Renekton going to kill an ADC with a Knights Vow/Locket/Convergence/Redemption? You have to one-shot or they're just going to tank your damage and kill you faster than you kill them.
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On April 18 2018 13:07 Slusher wrote: Actually affter watching a lot of LCK this last week I've come to a conclusion.
Tank tops aren't OP compared to Fighters one to one, same with supportive mids. The problem is ADC is the most important role by such a large margin doing anything other than maximizing their damage is less effective including doing damage yourself.
It's the same reason Conq ended up having no effect on the pro meta, it's strong but a free hitting adc is just stronger.
tl;dr the only way to curtail supportive mids is to nerf adc That's the feeling I have, I've watered down my stance a little but it still feels like most obvious issue is ADC/Botlane scales so hard and so fast that you don't really want or need anyone else to do damage. That one game between ASF and KZ in the finals was insane. Essentially two full tank comps with only a single damage dealer and no way to even boost him like ardent meta. Yet the tanks on both sides get destroyed in seconds. What the hell?
ADC have always been insanely strong in comp meta. The main difference is that they had power curves before. Now with bot lane being so powerful with so much gold there isn't really much chance to abuse power troughs. Kogmaw used to be a hyper carry but now he basically peaks off 2 items. Some carries hit their power spike from their first item rageblade and merely keep spiking from there. It's insane.
I find this a big problem over the years with Riots design. They so scared of players "not having fun" that they keep shoring up weaknesses. Heroes that had amazing late scaling but weak early or mid game get those weak phases improved while keeping their core strength in late. That just makes it hard for anyone else to actually matter.
edit: Also this may be way heroes that used to be good early but bad late are just kind of shitty right now, which is the majority of assassins.
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An assassin would be the theoretical counter but not everyone can squeeze fish between 3 tanks like Faker vs KSV
(I’m still tilted btw)
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Problem with assassin is that onus is on you and your team to make zero mistakes while punishing enemies mistakes. Enemy on the other hand can just chill back not caring about punishing you
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On April 19 2018 00:56 Slusher wrote: An assassin would be the theoretical counter but not everyone can squeeze fish between 3 tanks like Faker vs KSV
(I’m still tilted btw)
tanks counter assassins though.
I mean theoretical counter to 4 tanks and 1 damage dealer should be 3 tanks and 2 damage dealers. but that depends on having mages that are good against tanks and maybe right now the good ones are weak to getting engaged on
that or bruisers/bruisery mages like swain/vlad who can easily aoe down the tanks and heal up.
I mean if a team is picking 4 tanks there should be champs who can just run in and bop the adc who doesn't have any shields but thats assuming you can deal with all the CC to get through
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On April 19 2018 02:44 Slayer91 wrote: I mean if a team is picking 4 tanks there should be champs who can just run in and bop the adc who doesn't have any shields but thats assuming you can deal with all the CC to get through
While there is kind of a champ that does this. Olaf’s ult let’s him ignore CC and he bobs adcs pretty quickly if he gets on them. He was pick ban in most of the LCK playoffs. Maybe there need to be more divers that can weave through tanks to hit the adcs.
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Yes I’m saying assassins should be able to fill that role but currently they suck at it (unless you’re Faker)
I’ve been putting off my post about why I don’t really like playing Fizz anymore because I didn’t want to sound like a bitch when he isn’t that bad but I think it fits this topic so I’ll talk about it.
First of all the whole assassin update design goal of require 2+ seconds to do full damage was bad and they should have known it was bad and promoted bruiser builds because ekko was designed this way out of the gate, and while he has been fringe as a damage champion, he has only ever been t1 as a tank.
Fizz’s base damages have been brutalized over the years from stretches of actually being an op assassin and from being a bruiser. So Riot had the idea of the Damage amp ult, which was not perfect but it worked and was fun.
For the assassin update they packed all of his damage into the w price and his ult when thrown from an easily reactable range. At first people declared the ult busted because the hit box was busted /much larger than the graphic. Nobody liked this not even Fizz players so I’m not saying it shouldn’t have been nerfed but I think when people think about Fizz ult they think of the broken latch range from launch because his ult sucks dick now. You’re basically forced to throw out wishful thinking ult s and prepare yourself for the ? Spamming when you’re opponent isn’t afk.
Hey but you still have the w right? Yes you do but if it’s not applied via fish a lot of characters can just kill you before it procs Xayah and Kai’sa and late enough even Cait if you aren’t snowballing.
I actually have been playing a lot of Fizz top conq recently for fun I don’t think it’s particularly strong but it’s fun and I still like the hero. But I find playing him mid to be more stressful than fun for about a year now and only play it in late pick adventagous situations.
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've watered down my stance a little but it still feels like most obvious issue is ADC/Botlane scales so hard and so fast that you don't really want or need anyone else to do damage This is true currently, although the KZ example (G3, right?) isn't too good I feel because Kai'Sa is busted asf, and Varus actually wasn't doing too well against the front line.
ADC have always been insanely strong in comp meta This is not true. There have been times when ADC felt very weak, which was when we first started seeing utility ADC, aka Ashe/Jhin/Varus. These champs were chosen over the real DPS threats because they brought decent damage, but more importantly brought CC so that even when they fell behind they were relevant. But then a new season came with new masteries and a new meta, and suddenly the same picks started doing a ton of damage as well (Lethality meta).
My problem with bot lane right now is that ADC have become incredibly high DPS, while tanks have become incredibly tanky. It's basically become an arms race where if one gets put behind, they get dumped on by the other one. The ADC will always win in the long term because their raw DPS outscales maximum tankiness achievable by 90% of tanks. Meanwhile you have assassins lurking right behind the corner waiting for the meta to shift in their favour, because they blow up ADC so ridiculously fast. Rengar/Kha/Zed/Fizz etc. can one shot ADC very easily, some assassins don't even need their full spell rotation when ahead. In competitive this is much harder, but in soloQ it means as an ADC you have to pray your support picks smartly or has insane reaction and knows what he's doing.
I would gladly give up ADC DPS for more tankiness. Nerf their itemization scaling and buff scaling health, or rework their items. What about a built in shield ADC item? What about a flash ADC item? Spellshield? And in return, gut support itemization, remove shield and healing items from the game, give supports stronger CC or damage instead. Give these things directly to the ADC instead, turn supports into strong team fighters. Delete Janna and Lulu from the game.
Kogmaw used to be a hyper carry but now he basically peaks off 2 items. Rageblade is still a big problem in the bot lane. I want to go back the days of TF Kog, because he spiked with the item, but did not reach the killer DPS stage. It was also very expensive, delaying the spike even more. Tbh, two item Kog (TF + BotRK) has always been big DPS, but Rageblade has allowed him to reach that stage much faster, foregoing that interesting bursty Sheen spike.
Mixed damage has really taken over the bot lane this season. Kog/Varus are staple picks, and Kai'Sa is retardedly strong right now. Fundamental game mechanics like tank items and stat scaling are not balanced around this state. It's the same reason original Ryze was reworked, his scaling with mana completely fucked with the balance of items like FH or old Banshees.
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Is anyone else randomly freezing? My fps/ping stay around 40 but I can't move my champion. I don't remember this happening last patch. Minions still move and I can start attacking things in my range but my champion refuses to take inputs
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On April 19 2018 04:12 Slusher wrote: Yes I’m saying assassins should be able to fill that role but currently they suck at it (unless you’re Faker)
I’ve been putting off my post about why I don’t really like playing Fizz anymore because I didn’t want to sound like a bitch when he isn’t that bad but I think it fits this topic so I’ll talk about it.
First of all the whole assassin update design goal of require 2+ seconds to do full damage was bad and they should have known it was bad and promoted bruiser builds because ekko was designed this way out of the gate, and while he has been fringe as a damage champion, he has only ever been t1 as a tank.
Fizz’s base damages have been brutalized over the years from stretches of actually being an op assassin and from being a bruiser. So Riot had the idea of the Damage amp ult, which was not perfect but it worked and was fun.
For the assassin update they packed all of his damage into the w price and his ult when thrown from an easily reactable range. At first people declared the ult busted because the hit box was busted /much larger than the graphic. Nobody liked this not even Fizz players so I’m not saying it shouldn’t have been nerfed but I think when people think about Fizz ult they think of the broken latch range from launch because his ult sucks dick now. You’re basically forced to throw out wishful thinking ult s and prepare yourself for the ? Spamming when you’re opponent isn’t afk.
Hey but you still have the w right? Yes you do but if it’s not applied via fish a lot of characters can just kill you before it procs Xayah and Kai’sa and late enough even Cait if you aren’t snowballing.
I actually have been playing a lot of Fizz top conq recently for fun I don’t think it’s particularly strong but it’s fun and I still like the hero. But I find playing him mid to be more stressful than fun for about a year now and only play it in late pick adventagous situations.
assassins are absolutely not supposed to do that though they are supposed to be able to kill isolated targets not a team with 8 cc spells and a 1000 damage feast all ready to use on you <1s after you go in
On April 19 2018 03:15 General_Winter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2018 02:44 Slayer91 wrote: I mean if a team is picking 4 tanks there should be champs who can just run in and bop the adc who doesn't have any shields but thats assuming you can deal with all the CC to get through While there is kind of a champ that does this. Olaf’s ult let’s him ignore CC and he bobs adcs pretty quickly if he gets on them. He was pick ban in most of the LCK playoffs. Maybe there need to be more divers that can weave through tanks to hit the adcs.
its pretty easy to focus a single champion though you would need 2-3 divers and peeling is just way easier right now. Remeber the old RG homeguard maokai teleports those were not fun for adcs lol
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I feel like people act like Azir doesn't exist...
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This is not true. There have been times when ADC felt very weak, which was when we first started seeing utility ADC, aka Ashe/Jhin/Varus. These champs were chosen over the real DPS threats because they brought decent damage, but more importantly brought CC so that even when they fell behind they were relevant. But then a new season came with new masteries and a new meta, and suddenly the same picks started doing a ton of damage as well (Lethality meta).
I think the whole "ADC 2017" thing was more a meme than actual truth. If you looked at the kind of comps people were running there, the ADC were still doing huge amounts of work for the team. Varus was a poke monster at the start. Ashe/Jihn did a ton of damage while offering good utility. The issue was more that the other ADC took too long to come online compared to those ones. Lethality meta was before the new masteries, at the start of last season.
Essentially every time "ADC are weak" has been true is more like they aren't insanely OP than actually weak. It's just they so used to being the sole focus of a team that when you take a little bit of power away suddenly people freak out.
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On April 19 2018 17:36 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +This is not true. There have been times when ADC felt very weak, which was when we first started seeing utility ADC, aka Ashe/Jhin/Varus. These champs were chosen over the real DPS threats because they brought decent damage, but more importantly brought CC so that even when they fell behind they were relevant. But then a new season came with new masteries and a new meta, and suddenly the same picks started doing a ton of damage as well (Lethality meta). I think the whole "ADC 2017" thing was more a meme than actual truth. If you looked at the kind of comps people were running there, the ADC were still doing huge amounts of work for the team. Varus was a poke monster at the start. Ashe/Jihn did a ton of damage while offering good utility. The issue was more that the other ADC took too long to come online compared to those ones. Lethality meta was before the new masteries, at the start of last season. Essentially every time "ADC are weak" has been true is more like they aren't insanely OP than actually weak. It's just they so used to being the sole focus of a team that when you take a little bit of power away suddenly people freak out. The actual reason people complain is that the role in general is kinda shit by itself. You need a proper team comp and to be ahead in farm to be useful which isn't something you can get reliably.
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On April 19 2018 18:40 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2018 17:36 Numy wrote:This is not true. There have been times when ADC felt very weak, which was when we first started seeing utility ADC, aka Ashe/Jhin/Varus. These champs were chosen over the real DPS threats because they brought decent damage, but more importantly brought CC so that even when they fell behind they were relevant. But then a new season came with new masteries and a new meta, and suddenly the same picks started doing a ton of damage as well (Lethality meta). I think the whole "ADC 2017" thing was more a meme than actual truth. If you looked at the kind of comps people were running there, the ADC were still doing huge amounts of work for the team. Varus was a poke monster at the start. Ashe/Jihn did a ton of damage while offering good utility. The issue was more that the other ADC took too long to come online compared to those ones. Lethality meta was before the new masteries, at the start of last season. Essentially every time "ADC are weak" has been true is more like they aren't insanely OP than actually weak. It's just they so used to being the sole focus of a team that when you take a little bit of power away suddenly people freak out. The actual reason people complain is that the role in general is kinda shit by itself. You need a proper team comp and to be ahead in farm to be useful which isn't something you can get reliably.
I can agree with this, it's pretty much the reason I listed random ideas above. ADC needs more independent playmaking, and give up DPS in return.
ADC are incredibly squishy these days. way more than in the very early seasons, but in return they do absurd DPS. The risk-to-reward ratio does not truly hold for certain game mechanics, like ranged DPS, because it assumes balance in a vacuum. If ADC could do 25% more damage in return for giving up 25% of their health, I'm sure pros would take it. We'd see Janna/Karma/Lulu mid + Braum/Tahm support every god damn game though.
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I'd be perfectly happy if they gutted the scaling of damage in general to allow more hybrid builds and other playmaking. It's partly why you get far more interesting carries in Dota, you typically can't build straight damage and actually do damage in fights. I think for league you'd have to scale back defensive stats too and maybe even just get rid of "tanks" instead making them more hybrid low damage higher CC champs instead of damage sponges.
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To be honest I dont thinkt the issue is really the ADC, on a non-lethality build they have always been shredding teams once they hit 3 items. The reason ADC damage feel much higher these days is that the supports are simply too efficient at allowing the ADC to free fire, seasons ago they had to kite a lot more meaning more downtime on their autos now you can just slap a 21348629 damage shield on, cleanse CC, damage reduction, mobile zhonya, heal and have the ADC a-move towards the enemy.
ADCs sort of scale off their support as well as their natural scaling. Riot has done little to balance according to how much stronger supports have gotten, seasons ago winning botlane was like having 1½ fed members now it's closer to have 3 since both are individually strong and the support basically give anyone they help 1-1½ items worth of stats from their immense utility and/or shields/heals.
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I think things like looking at all the free support (and just generally free gold in general) has done to the game is a good idea. When one looks at old pro games, overall gold totals were just soo much lower 10, 20, 30 mins into the game, and that even includes when dragon gave gold. This means that even if you have a big lead in top or mid adc you aren't just a monster that can 2v1, a 3-0 toplaner still rarely wins a 2v1 gank unless its under his tower or involves a big outplay. Freezing and denying CS/EXP is basically a dead strategy.
On top of that, you might look at why "party in the botlane" has become such a common strategy. TP top, often TP mid, semiglobals in mid (from safe champs like Galio and Taliah) along with the PVE/Waveclear mid meta has made actually doing things in other lanes fairly rare. Indeed, after the initial party or 2 the teams generally park themselves in mid halfheartedly jockying for 1-2 potshots on a turret per wave and setting up for neutrals. Since no one freezes waves in the long lanes, people just shove, then wait for the other laner to shove, etc. In other eras you would feel insane having an Azir and Caitlyn in the same lane because you are just losing farm way too much, but now they don't really need to care (also a sneaky reason why SKT fell off, they were the best farm allocation team S5-7).
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What you are saying is true but also has buffed the adc individuality as well letting them build far squishier. Tell a s3 adc lifesteal 4th item if ever and they would think you’re nuts.
This is why I suggested the zeal / lost chapter scenario lowers the scaling a bit (although it could just make reaver adcs op) but idk. Better people than me to balance this game I'm just trying to say tanks and support mids are only op because of adc not because of their match ups
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That's true, but in many ways they were individually much stronger champs in S2 (for sure) and S3. ADCs would prefer to build BT>Zeal or BOTRK first and have 1v1 parity and be able to farm sidelanes. They can't really do that, so they build squishy, with double zeal, and rely on the team protection. So yes, they are super strong in that position, but they aren't really all that useful outside of that (unless its Kaisa, who is just broken because thats what they do).
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I'm really happy with the Leblanc revert, feels great to play. Support Leblanc still fun.
+ Show Spoiler +
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I don't really think bringing up ADC itemization in S2/3 is a good discussion point to talk about how ADC could be changed, because those were the days when shit was legit broken, but a lot of mechanics were still being discovered so the game sort of moved forward by itself. And the Holy Trinity of ADC was about as far from modern ADC as they've ever been, Graves and Corki were just way too strong in lane against everyone else, but their DPS wasn't actually anywhere as close to what ADC can dish out today. This was what drove the BT meta, there was no possible way to outplay Corki/Graves Q, it did a lot of damage and they had enough mana to push you out of lane if you did not have LS by the end of the laning phase. The trinity could legit 1vs5 teams because they were difficult to catch, two of them had AoE damage that could shred entire teams if they were fed, and they had a ton of LS which meant that when ahead, they felt like tanks because they mitigated like 75%+ of the damage they were receiving.
I double checked, and I might be wrong, but BotRK was not a real meta item until S4. It saw almost 0 play in S2, and was only used on Vayne/Twitch/Zed S3. Only in S4 did we start seeing it on Kog/Lucian/Trist and a whole bunch of other champs. Probably because mid-way through the season Riot thought changing it from 5% current health to 8% was a good idea.
support mids When I think of it retrospectively, I think the bigger problem with support mids was that they were simply too good at laning, not that they were oppressive heal/shield bots (which was frustrating, don't get me wrong). Watching Faker or Apdo lane with Lulu, getting kills and applying massive pressure on the map, on a champ who's main focus is to ult the carry when they're low, was just disgustingly imbalanced.
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I don't know why, but Kayn always gives me problems.
It's not like I feel he is the problem and he doesn't seem to be too strong early or mid game, but there are these late game teamfights where he's dashing everywhere, knocking up 5 people and just fucking shit up in general. Doesn't help that I play early game junglers that become non-champions at 20 minutes, I guess.
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Riot: "Moving forward we want every new champion to do at least one unique thing"
Also Riot: "This champion that has a very unique playstyle, and has somehow managed to be meta for a greater % of the time than the majority of the champ, doesn't feel enough like other league champions so were reworking him"
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On April 22 2018 00:36 Slusher wrote:Riot: "Moving forward we want every new champion to do at least one unique thing" Also Riot: "This champion that has a very unique playstyle, and has somehow managed to be meta for a greater % of the time than the majority of the champ, doesn't feel enough like other league champions so were reworking him"
People have said it before, but the moving targets and vagueness are clearly a strategy. They have no coherent balance goals. They rework the jungle just about every year, to little effect, they rework about 1 "class" a year, be it assassins, tanks, adcs, etc but each of those options contradicted each other, and they rarely revisit their work (Leblanc being addressed is the exception, not the rule), and they just done fucked some champs like Ryze.
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On April 22 2018 07:31 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2018 00:36 Slusher wrote:Riot: "Moving forward we want every new champion to do at least one unique thing" Also Riot: "This champion that has a very unique playstyle, and has somehow managed to be meta for a greater % of the time than the majority of the champ, doesn't feel enough like other league champions so were reworking him" People have said it before, but the moving targets and vagueness are clearly a strategy. They have no coherent balance goals. They rework the jungle just about every year, to little effect, they rework about 1 "class" a year, be it assassins, tanks, adcs, etc but each of those options contradicted each other, and they rarely revisit their work (Leblanc being addressed is the exception, not the rule), and they just done fucked some champs like Ryze.
TBF they've revisited a bunch of their reworks. Leblanc/Kog/Rengar etc. I believe some Rioters went on Beyond the Rift and said they think they handled those class updates of changing a bunch of champions in a short period of time was the wrong way to go with it and they'll be focusing a lot more on itemisations and a smaller number of champions.
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On April 22 2018 08:17 AdsMoFro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2018 07:31 cLutZ wrote:On April 22 2018 00:36 Slusher wrote:Riot: "Moving forward we want every new champion to do at least one unique thing" Also Riot: "This champion that has a very unique playstyle, and has somehow managed to be meta for a greater % of the time than the majority of the champ, doesn't feel enough like other league champions so were reworking him" People have said it before, but the moving targets and vagueness are clearly a strategy. They have no coherent balance goals. They rework the jungle just about every year, to little effect, they rework about 1 "class" a year, be it assassins, tanks, adcs, etc but each of those options contradicted each other, and they rarely revisit their work (Leblanc being addressed is the exception, not the rule), and they just done fucked some champs like Ryze. TBF they've revisited a bunch of their reworks. Leblanc/Kog/Rengar etc. I believe some Rioters went on Beyond the Rift and said they think they handled those class updates of changing a bunch of champions in a short period of time was the wrong way to go with it and they'll be focusing a lot more on itemisations and a smaller number of champions.
I don't think it has to be either, you just need to choose your path aggressively. If you want to do major "group" reworks, that's fine, just do them, and monitor to make sure its works. For example the assassin rework, if you do that, and then see the result is that you just remade assassins into shit control mages/bruisers, don't leave it. OTOH if you are more into tweaking a little every patch, well then actually do that. Throw some love at Hecarim in this patch while you are doing stuff, or TF, Talon, Zed, Annie, etc. I mean they did a bunch of shit with Ahri, who already was a meta-ready champion, just undertuned because Taliah is just stupidly too good at shoving & roaming.
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I still stand to my opinion that Riot does not focus on to balance the game as their priority, it's making sure that the meta is fresh and always shifting that they always look at first, so people will keep playing the game.
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On April 22 2018 18:18 DarkCore wrote: I still stand to my opinion that Riot does not focus on to balance the game as their priority, it's making sure that the meta is fresh and always shifting that they always look at first, so people will keep playing the game. This is in my opinion also the best way to go about it. Perfect balance makes a game eventually feel stale while perfect imbalance makes game feel alive as metas will constantly evolve.
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theyre not going to achieve perfect balance anyways so I don't think its bad to try to balance well?
I rather have the game in a somewhat balanced state and have the players figure out (even if slowly) ways to innovate
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I’m not sure it’s as deliberate or planned. I think the design team wants to make unique champs and unique play styles and meaningful choices. And I think the balance team thinks balancing unique things is really hard and a pain in the but, so they nerf things until the playable champs are all the same, and they can use the same toolkit to balance them.
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On April 23 2018 04:24 General_Winter wrote: I’m not sure it’s as deliberate or planned. I think the design team wants to make unique champs and unique play styles and meaningful choices. And I think the balance team thinks balancing unique things is really hard and a pain in the but, so they nerf things until the playable champs are all the same, and they can use the same toolkit to balance them. I think the argument people would make is, "but why these champions?" Sejuani has been good for a while, there are 2 other, similar junglers (Amumu and Naut) that are way cooler and way more interesting. Taliah is just a boring version of TF. It is nice they rid us of the boringness that is RekSai this season I suppose.
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idk mate it feels like there used to be MUST ban champions every season
now its like sometimes they release a broken champion and theres a lot of strong champs but not quite the same
sounds like decent balancing to me
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On April 22 2018 18:18 DarkCore wrote: I still stand to my opinion that Riot does not focus on to balance the game as their priority, it's making sure that the meta is fresh and always shifting that they always look at first, so people will keep playing the game. i agree. but i'm totally okay with it.
rapid iteration is why the game has high player retention
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I don’t know how this got twisted into a balance complaint, I’m saying Nunu is unique AND strong fairly often compared to over half the cast, by those standards I think he’s a really bad choice for a remake.
The only reason I mention balance at all is if he was unique but useless that could be an argument
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On April 23 2018 03:41 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2018 18:18 DarkCore wrote: I still stand to my opinion that Riot does not focus on to balance the game as their priority, it's making sure that the meta is fresh and always shifting that they always look at first, so people will keep playing the game. This is in my opinion also the best way to go about it. Perfect balance makes a game eventually feel stale while perfect imbalance makes game feel alive as metas will constantly evolve. there is no such thing as perfect balance. no matter how good the balance is there will always be champions that are under utilised. also if the game remains the same for a long enough time pros will find pocket strats within the patch that eventually become too strong for everything else, therefore requiring another balance patch. this is how it should be, rather than the game being patched towards some retarded fantasy made up by riot members when they feel like it. not sure how they can be serious about lol being an esport when they dont give a shit about actual competitive balance. cant say the same for dota post 2014, but icefrogs dota up to 2014 was textbook balancing imo. im still convinced valve secretly fired icefrog after 2014 and just use his name so the playerbase doesnt lose their shit.
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The worst thing they did was single target spells draw minion aggro. Pantheon feels so much worse that it seems like he needs a rework now. He can't harass with Q until all in. It's either all in and get in a bush or poke with Q and slowly die.
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well I think single target spells drawing aggro is a good thing to have. it should have been there in the first place. for lane bullies that suffered too much from this change they should look to compensate though
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there is no such thing as perfect balance. no matter how good the balance is there will always be champions that are under utilised
While true, it also means Riot has an iron grip on what is viable in the game, aka when they see players doing something they don't like, they can change it. This can be good or bad. Good would be getting rid of Gragas mid one shotting everyone. Bad would probably be buffing Kai'Sa to the stratosphere, or leaving Janna the way she is for years now. These changes do not have an inherent balance reason, which means they are always going to be debatable.
idk mate it feels like there used to be MUST ban champions every season
Agreed, in terms of over the top OP single picks, Riot balancing has come a long way. Even Kai'Sa isn't banned every game, although Swain is pretty close to previous ban rates. But in return, the power of individual carry ability has gone down, no more Faker carrying his team to a championship by being the best LB in the world.
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On April 23 2018 16:40 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +there is no such thing as perfect balance. no matter how good the balance is there will always be champions that are under utilised While true, it also means Riot has an iron grip on what is viable in the game, aka when they see players doing something they don't like, they can change it. This can be good or bad. Good would be getting rid of Gragas mid one shotting everyone. Bad would probably be buffing Kai'Sa to the stratosphere, or leaving Janna the way she is for years now. These changes do not have an inherent balance reason, which means they are always going to be debatable. Agreed, in terms of over the top OP single picks, Riot balancing has come a long way. Even Kai'Sa isn't banned every game, although Swain is pretty close to previous ban rates. But in return, the power of individual carry ability has gone down, no more Faker carrying his team to a championship by being the best LB in the world. I honestly dont think Riot balancing has anything to do with the ability to solo carry. The 1v9 Faker moments were a combination of Faker and SKT being ahead of their time. Other players didn't perform as well on the same champions as him. Players and teams as a whole has simply caught up.
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On April 23 2018 20:49 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 16:40 DarkCore wrote:there is no such thing as perfect balance. no matter how good the balance is there will always be champions that are under utilised While true, it also means Riot has an iron grip on what is viable in the game, aka when they see players doing something they don't like, they can change it. This can be good or bad. Good would be getting rid of Gragas mid one shotting everyone. Bad would probably be buffing Kai'Sa to the stratosphere, or leaving Janna the way she is for years now. These changes do not have an inherent balance reason, which means they are always going to be debatable. idk mate it feels like there used to be MUST ban champions every season Agreed, in terms of over the top OP single picks, Riot balancing has come a long way. Even Kai'Sa isn't banned every game, although Swain is pretty close to previous ban rates. But in return, the power of individual carry ability has gone down, no more Faker carrying his team to a championship by being the best LB in the world. I honestly dont think Riot balancing has anything to do with the ability to solo carry. The 1v9 Faker moments were a combination of Faker and SKT being ahead of their time. Other players didn't perform as well on the same champions as him. Players and teams as a whole has simply caught up.
I think it has. Giving support more gold for example means that those bags of gold for LB in the early-mid game no longer exist/are harder to exploit. In general, tankiness and resistances are way easier to itemize and fit into builds even as damage oriented champions. Furthermore, Riot's definitely shifted away power from mid lane in general. It's siphoned it off into support mainly, with a bit of jungle as well. Of course, some of it is also teams catching up and learning how to play around vision better and at abusing SKT's flaws as a team. That's also a natural progression of the game but things like changing how snowballing work, buffing TP, reducing first-blood/first blood XP, are all obviously targeted at reducing the likelihood of one player 1v9ing a game.
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I honestly dont think Riot balancing has anything to do with the ability to solo carry. The 1v9 Faker moments were a combination of Faker and SKT being ahead of their time. Other players didn't perform as well on the same champions as him. Players and teams as a whole has simply caught up.
Faker was ahead of his time, yes, but he has mentioned it himself that solo carrying isn't really feasible anymore. Destroying your lane does not carry over to an autowin anymore, besides the fact that snowball mechanics have been nerfed repetitively since S2. The days of running ignite top are over, Renekton isn't going to build a 30 cs gap at the 10 minute mark unless his opponent sucks or has been massively camped. Likewise, casters often talk about bot lane matchups being favoured to one side, but if you look at the cs scores at the end of the laning phase, they tend to not be absurdly one sided, usually the 'favoured' lane will just naturally get the tower first and snowball from there.
Snowballing games is now a team initiative, where an advantage in a lane has to be carefully orchestrated with other plans to get things rolling. This is why TP is such a powerful summoner, no bot lane wants to have a 2/0 Camille TPing into their lane getting more kills. It's also why Galio is popular in pro games, he deters small skirmishes around the mid lane because his ultimate will shut it down. In the past, Riven top would just keep killing her lane opponent over and over again, the jungler would either have to come sit top or give the lane up. Same with the days of counterjungling: Shyv would steal camps, and you'd end up with a lv 2 Amumu being absolutely useless while lv 4 Shyv is asserting pressure from the enemy jungle because she can turn up from behind the tower. Catch-up exp, and the way the jungle gives gold now, has mainly removed those features. Changes to warding and supports have contributed to this. In the LPL series last week, I watched quite a bit of counterjungling happen, but the enemy jungler was always even in lvs and probably jungle gold as well. The downside was that their pathing was made predictable and the counterjungler could pressure lanes or take objectives safely, but the advantage was not quantitative, you couldn't put proper numbers on this 'advantage' until a big play was made
I don't consider it a bad thing tbh, auto losing lane with little way to come back or have any impact on the game just because your jungler sucks were not fun days. But I do think that Riot has brought balance in this direction.
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On April 23 2018 20:49 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 16:40 DarkCore wrote:there is no such thing as perfect balance. no matter how good the balance is there will always be champions that are under utilised While true, it also means Riot has an iron grip on what is viable in the game, aka when they see players doing something they don't like, they can change it. This can be good or bad. Good would be getting rid of Gragas mid one shotting everyone. Bad would probably be buffing Kai'Sa to the stratosphere, or leaving Janna the way she is for years now. These changes do not have an inherent balance reason, which means they are always going to be debatable. idk mate it feels like there used to be MUST ban champions every season Agreed, in terms of over the top OP single picks, Riot balancing has come a long way. Even Kai'Sa isn't banned every game, although Swain is pretty close to previous ban rates. But in return, the power of individual carry ability has gone down, no more Faker carrying his team to a championship by being the best LB in the world. I honestly dont think Riot balancing has anything to do with the ability to solo carry. The 1v9 Faker moments were a combination of Faker and SKT being ahead of their time. Other players didn't perform as well on the same champions as him. Players and teams as a whole has simply caught up. Just go watch old games and observe the gold, then compare. The difference is striking
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Forgot to mention that XP range in lane from minions dying was dramatically increased as well. It's almost impossible to zone people off CS unless you've got a freeze set up in the mid lane. Even then, the enemy mid can stand way far away and soak XP, while still remaining relatively safe from ganks provided they have an escape or CC ability in most match ups.
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On April 24 2018 01:53 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 20:49 Jek wrote:On April 23 2018 16:40 DarkCore wrote:there is no such thing as perfect balance. no matter how good the balance is there will always be champions that are under utilised While true, it also means Riot has an iron grip on what is viable in the game, aka when they see players doing something they don't like, they can change it. This can be good or bad. Good would be getting rid of Gragas mid one shotting everyone. Bad would probably be buffing Kai'Sa to the stratosphere, or leaving Janna the way she is for years now. These changes do not have an inherent balance reason, which means they are always going to be debatable. idk mate it feels like there used to be MUST ban champions every season Agreed, in terms of over the top OP single picks, Riot balancing has come a long way. Even Kai'Sa isn't banned every game, although Swain is pretty close to previous ban rates. But in return, the power of individual carry ability has gone down, no more Faker carrying his team to a championship by being the best LB in the world. I honestly dont think Riot balancing has anything to do with the ability to solo carry. The 1v9 Faker moments were a combination of Faker and SKT being ahead of their time. Other players didn't perform as well on the same champions as him. Players and teams as a whole has simply caught up. Just go watch old games and observe the gold, then compare. The difference is striking
Part of this is just players farming better though.
Also, a lot of the ability to solo carry was just people being trash at the game.
Case in point, go watch the faker 1v9 game where he solo kills ambition with Nidalee. Faker has something silly like 180 cs at 30 minutes. My silver buddy had a higher cs pacing vs a plat players in the clash. Also case in point... ambition, considered the best mid in the world at the time, just evolves Kha W outside a creep wave ahead of his minions. At the time everyone thought that was a crazy unexpected play by faker, but now that's the most obvious thing in the world.
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On April 24 2018 02:37 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2018 01:53 cLutZ wrote:On April 23 2018 20:49 Jek wrote:On April 23 2018 16:40 DarkCore wrote:there is no such thing as perfect balance. no matter how good the balance is there will always be champions that are under utilised While true, it also means Riot has an iron grip on what is viable in the game, aka when they see players doing something they don't like, they can change it. This can be good or bad. Good would be getting rid of Gragas mid one shotting everyone. Bad would probably be buffing Kai'Sa to the stratosphere, or leaving Janna the way she is for years now. These changes do not have an inherent balance reason, which means they are always going to be debatable. idk mate it feels like there used to be MUST ban champions every season Agreed, in terms of over the top OP single picks, Riot balancing has come a long way. Even Kai'Sa isn't banned every game, although Swain is pretty close to previous ban rates. But in return, the power of individual carry ability has gone down, no more Faker carrying his team to a championship by being the best LB in the world. I honestly dont think Riot balancing has anything to do with the ability to solo carry. The 1v9 Faker moments were a combination of Faker and SKT being ahead of their time. Other players didn't perform as well on the same champions as him. Players and teams as a whole has simply caught up. Just go watch old games and observe the gold, then compare. The difference is striking Part of this is just players farming better though. Also, a lot of the ability to solo carry was just people being trash at the game. Case in point, go watch the faker 1v9 game where he solo kills ambition with Nidalee. Faker has something silly like 180 cs at 30 minutes. My silver buddy had a higher cs pacing vs a plat players in the clash. Also case in point... ambition, considered the best mid in the world at the time, just evolves Kha W outside a creep wave ahead of his minions. At the time everyone thought that was a crazy unexpected play by faker, but now that's the most obvious thing in the world.
This entire thing is just silly. Is it farming better? Possibly a miniscule amount of it is (the majority is higher ambient gold and just general global gold), but even if that were so, a huge amount of better CSing is that every freaking champion has better waveclear now. And not just midlaners having lower mana costs and better pushing, ADCs, Tops, etc get to start with damage items now instead of boots.
Also its silly to bring up the Faker nidalee game. She was always a bad pre-6 laner and Faker was rarely even in lane afterwards to get CS. And the evolution is an even sillier point, people get caught shopping all the freaking time still in top level games.
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Faker CSPM
Season 3 (this is missing a lot of games though): 8.7 Season 4: 9.1 Season 5: 8.9 Season 6: 8.8 Season 7: 9.4 Season 8: 10.2
Though in general this season I think everyone is getting more. Something to point out is that in Season 4 Faker gets 480 GPM whereas every season after this is a fairly consistent 420 GPM. Don't have stats for Season 3. Comparing old gold leads is probably heavily influenced by dragon changes though so I'm not sure this means much.
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the team oriented meme needs to die.
elo hell discussion was banned years and years ago. this is just another way of saying that.
On April 24 2018 02:59 Ansibled wrote: Faker CSPM
Season 3 (this is missing a lot of games though): 8.7 Season 4: 9.1 Season 5: 8.9 Season 6: 8.8 Season 7: 9.4 Season 8: 10.2
Though in general this season I think everyone is getting more. Something to point out is that in Season 4 Faker gets 480 GPM whereas every season after this is a fairly consistent 420 GPM. Don't have stats for Season 3. Comparing old gold leads is probably heavily influenced by dragon changes though so I'm not sure this means much. got any of the stats from S2 mid laners like froggen, alex ich, toyz and rapidstar?
s2 feels the most relevant given the current state of the game and distribution of power between roles. very similar in terms of non-interactive waveclear. possibly higher numbers even because of the power farming wraiths + wolves
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On April 24 2018 03:06 Frolossus wrote:the team oriented meme needs to die. elo hell discussion was banned years and years ago. this is just another way of saying that. Show nested quote +On April 24 2018 02:59 Ansibled wrote: Faker CSPM
Season 3 (this is missing a lot of games though): 8.7 Season 4: 9.1 Season 5: 8.9 Season 6: 8.8 Season 7: 9.4 Season 8: 10.2
Though in general this season I think everyone is getting more. Something to point out is that in Season 4 Faker gets 480 GPM whereas every season after this is a fairly consistent 420 GPM. Don't have stats for Season 3. Comparing old gold leads is probably heavily influenced by dragon changes though so I'm not sure this means much. got any of the stats from S2 mid laners like froggen, alex ich, toyz and rapidstar? s2 feels the most relevant given the current state of the game and distribution of power between roles. very similar in terms of non-interactive waveclear. possibly higher numbers even because of the power farming wraiths + wolves How are discussion the playstyle in professional past and present even remotely similar to "Elo hell".
You can find it for most players on gamepedia: https://lol.gamepedia.com/Froggen/Statistics/2013
Midlane for the longest time were almost entirely wave clear champs or Kassadin. Dont really see how their current pushing power is worse than Gragas, Lux, Twisted Fate, Karthus and Anivia...
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On April 24 2018 02:59 Ansibled wrote: Faker CSPM
Season 3 (this is missing a lot of games though): 8.7 Season 4: 9.1 Season 5: 8.9 Season 6: 8.8 Season 7: 9.4 Season 8: 10.2
Though in general this season I think everyone is getting more. Something to point out is that in Season 4 Faker gets 480 GPM whereas every season after this is a fairly consistent 420 GPM. Don't have stats for Season 3. Comparing old gold leads is probably heavily influenced by dragon changes though so I'm not sure this means much.
Keep in mind that season 4 and earlier had mid laners owning one if not both wraiths and wolves, which kind of fucks up those numbers.
Wave control in general was pretty bad... teams were literally just figuring out you could back on canon waves.
Go watch some games. Average cspm was shit. Like I'd say maybe 7 to 7.5... keeping in mind those numbers for faker are with him and skt pooping on everything.
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Midlane for the longest time were almost entirely wave clear champs or Kassadin. Dont really see how their current pushing power is worse than Gragas, Lux, Twisted Fate, Karthus and Anivia...
I don't think by much, but the big difference is pros today have those cs numbers while roaming a lot more.
How are discussion the playstyle in professional past and present even remotely similar to "Elo hell".
Yeah, I never brought up soloQ either, you can carry by yourself in yoloQ ez, just watch Apdo do it every season. But in competitive, it's a very different environment.
Wave control in general was pretty bad... teams were literally just figuring out you could back on canon waves
Pretty bad is an understatement. Azubu Blaze (Or was it still CJ?) literally destroyed the scene by mastering the '6th' man strategy of manipulating a side lane to slowly build up into a massive creep wave capable of taking two or three towers by themselves. That gets thrown completely out the window today simply by having a Banner of Command, or running TP.
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I think the blaze story is misunderstood. Freezing and outfarming the enemy was really the core of the strategy, while the "6th man" was rendered effective because running TP in lane was too risky, and giving up dragons at the time was also more risky.
Basically all aspects of that have been changed. TP is now the less risky choice in lane, freezing is not nearly as effective, powercurves for most champions have been flattened, saccing dragons is fairly benign (you can always just take a counter herald anways), plus Ozone's diving strategy has been adopted. If anything diving is the thing teams have gotten much better at.
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Remember how right before the rune rework Ezreal in the jungle was picking up as a popular pick? Just yesterday I had a game where an ADC main got auto filled jungle and played jungle EZ with electrocute. The level three gank with red buff was absolutely brutal and he nearly one comboed an Irelia that I was leaning against. I hadn’t seen that pick in a long time, but he seemed to have good clear times and pretty vicious ganks. Anyone else seen a jungle Ez recently?
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I think jungle Ez is just a weaker jungle Kai atm, he's not exactly a bad jungler, but lack of CC is a big problem, and he's not strong enough right now to justify the pick in pro play. But go ahead and play him in yoloQ.
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On April 25 2018 03:54 General_Winter wrote: Remember how right before the rune rework Ezreal in the jungle was picking up as a popular pick? Just yesterday I had a game where an ADC main got auto filled jungle and played jungle EZ with electrocute. The level three gank with red buff was absolutely brutal and he nearly one comboed an Irelia that I was leaning against. I hadn’t seen that pick in a long time, but he seemed to have good clear times and pretty vicious ganks. Anyone else seen a jungle Ez recently? I've seen it once after rune rework. He ended up getting farmed by our Kha'Zix.
If he doesn't get off to a good start he easily becomes a complete non-factor, especially if the other jungler is someone who can 1v1 him at any point of the game which is basically all meta junglers right now. Kindred or Kai'Sa all looks like way better "adc junglers" at the moment, hell I'd even rather have a Twitch jungle on my team instead.
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https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2018/04/dev-updates-to-ranked-for-2019/
I'm not convinced. Positional matchmaking sounds kind of sketchy? but at least you can keep one rank lower to queue with people outside of usual ranked differences? Oh they confirmed you can't do this.
I'm really curious how much your positional mmrs will drift apart. If you end up like 300mmr higher on your main role then I think matchmaking is going to be garbage in general.
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I have ended plat the last few seasons as a top main, I can do the other roles passable other then ADC at my current level. I would be really interested to see what my ADC MMR is, it wouldn't shock me if it was bronze. I think it could be fun if it works decent.
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There's no way you have like a 500mmr difference between your roles. The example Riot gives is a Gold 1 ADC being a Silver 4 jungler and I'm pretty sure the Gold 1 will just stomp even in an offrole. I really don't see this having good implications for matchmaking.
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I dunno man, I'm pretty awful at adc, I can't orb walk worth shit and from playing so many initiators I tend to be way to close to the action. Maybe I'm less bad at it then I think but honestly it wouldn't shock me.
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Ansi, you've seen me struggle in silver on ADC when i was Plat lol. I can see it happening :D
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On April 26 2018 03:08 AdsMoFro wrote: Ansi, you've seen me struggle in silver on ADC when i was Plat lol. I can see it happening :D I'm pretty sure you ended up winning games though, albeit in a somewhat comical way. Maybe the difference between your absolute best role and your absolute worse can be something like this if you really try, but the difference between primary and secondary shouldn't be anywhere near as close.
I don't know I pretty much play everything other than top and I don't think there's a massive difference between my skill in these roles. And I still think I'd beat a top laner who is like 2 divisons below me.
Still a lot of the system seems vague at the moment so we'll have to see what they actually do. Hopefully they cap how far apart your ranks can be to a division or something.
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On April 26 2018 02:42 Ansibled wrote: There's no way you have like a 500mmr difference between your roles. The example Riot gives is a Gold 1 ADC being a Silver 4 jungler and I'm pretty sure the Gold 1 will just stomp even in an offrole. I really don't see this having good implications for matchmaking. You obviously haven't seen how atrocious I am at jungling.
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People really like flaming me for picking support Leblanc, it's pretty funny. I actually got flamed less playing support Lee Sin.
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On April 26 2018 03:09 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2018 03:08 AdsMoFro wrote: Ansi, you've seen me struggle in silver on ADC when i was Plat lol. I can see it happening :D I'm pretty sure you ended up winning games though, albeit in a somewhat comical way. Maybe the difference between your absolute best role and your absolute worse can be something like this if you really try, but the difference between primary and secondary shouldn't be anywhere near as close. I don't know I pretty much play everything other than top and I don't think there's a massive difference between my skill in these roles. And I still think I'd beat a top laner who is like 2 divisons below me. Still a lot of the system seems vague at the moment so we'll have to see what they actually do. Hopefully they cap how far apart your ranks can be to a division or something. Sounds like you haven't encountered many 1 tricks. There are tons of people who aren't in the same league(not division) on their off roles.
Hell just look at soraka/janna 1 tricks. You can probably legit find diamond players who struggle to survive lane in gold.
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man riot is really setting up dynamic queue electric boogaloo here
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as a fill player, I really like the changes.
im a fan of encouraging players to be more proficient on multiple roles/champs. it makes for better games imo at least below high elo since there are so many players who simply cannot see how a game should be played out from a different POV than theirs.
at worst you probably end up with something similar to what we have already and at best you'll have more well-rounded players with some added rewards.
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As a fellow fill main I feel like all the change does is give me back an incentive to play multiple roles (used to be "if I fill then all the onetricks on my team get the role and carry me", now it's "I get to show off in my profile that I'm equally bad in all my roles").
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Isn't this just the inherent flaw in the role queue system itself (as opposed to them being bold and rigorously enforcing Pick order > call order in champ select)?
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I don't mind role queue system though, it works for 99% of the playerbase who just want to focus on one or two roles. I don't think there are many people like me who who specifically enjoy playing multiple roles while climbing.
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Its more, IMO, about what you prefer MMR to be about. Is it about some abstract value that demonstrates a player's "skill" at league of legends, or is it about a different abstract value relating to his skill at a few subskills. They made their choice by implementing role queuing, but trying to put bandaids over that seems silly to me.
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I personally strongly prefer the current system although fill definitely has less variety than filling in the old system.
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On the current role selection, I'd really like to be able to queue for fill but not top.
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id queue fill if it guaranteed that you dont get the same role 2-3 games in a row. i like support but i dont want to support 4/5 fill games.
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I dont really see how they expect the positional MMR to work out. People swap roles so often, I've never queued as mid in the current season but I still have a handful of mid games since someone got autofilled.
Premades can game the positional MMR system so easily it seems pointless.
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id queue fill if it guaranteed that you dont get the same role 2-3 games in a row. i like support but i dont want to support 4/5 fill games.
Yeah, fill is not very rewarding, especially for those ppl who want to play a variety, who are the very people who would choose the option. It's just better to choose random roles every queue, and hope it works out.
Technically I'm an ADC/Support main, but I've found myself always choosing ADC/Top because I get support like half or more of the time, which is not what I want. Means I'm almost always guaranteed to get ADC, like 80-90% of the time, and otherwise I get some top games or autofilled Support, which I'm kind of happy with.
I dont really see how they expect the positional MMR to work out. People swap roles so often, I've never queued as mid in the current season but I still have a handful of mid games since someone got autofilled.
Wait, you offered to play mid for them? Or you got autofilled?
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On April 26 2018 18:25 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +id queue fill if it guaranteed that you dont get the same role 2-3 games in a row. i like support but i dont want to support 4/5 fill games. Yeah, fill is not very rewarding, especially for those ppl who want to play a variety, who are the very people who would choose the option. It's just better to choose random roles every queue, and hope it works out. Technically I'm an ADC/Support main, but I've found myself always choosing ADC/Top because I get support like half or more of the time, which is not what I want. Means I'm almost always guaranteed to get ADC, like 80-90% of the time, and otherwise I get some top games or autofilled Support, which I'm kind of happy with. Show nested quote +I dont really see how they expect the positional MMR to work out. People swap roles so often, I've never queued as mid in the current season but I still have a handful of mid games since someone got autofilled. Wait, you offered to play mid for them? Or you got autofilled? I have had a few autofilled mids that asked if anyone would swap but for the most part it's usually a duo when it happens and whenever I'm playing with a premade bot I always give support/adc* away (unless I'd end up jungling), a premade botlane more often than not destroy a PUG.
* I queue support + something not jungle (for the most part top this season, guess I'm a M) and have never gotten mid when I've actualled queued it on my secondary.
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So I know everyone says you don't lose MMR if you let LP decay but I really don't think that's true because my account that was plat 4 and played with plat2+ every game decayed to gold 1 and then when I went to play again it's playing with gold. It's not like I went on a losing streak before I stopped playing on it either. I am 7-3 in games and promo back to plat and when I win games now I get +24 whereas before I got +26/7.
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This seems like a good change to me. I didn’t play much ranked last year, but in 2016 I think I had like 60% win rate in the jungle, 50% in top and 20% as adc or support (you pretty much don’t get auto filled to mid so no number for that). Overall, that got me to something close to 50% win rate which is what MMR matchmaking should achieve, but the actual gameplay wasn’t great. Games were easy on my main role and sad blowouts in off role. If adjusting matchmaking for off roles reduces these crazy disparities that probably makes for more real games.
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soooo essentially they want to separate the roles so people have less anxiety and stress about playing off roles.
but then they want the outcome of games you play on off roles to contribute in some way through incentives toward your main role. then those incentives would have to be astronomically large to offset the chance of losing, wasting the time for playing the game, and getting nothing. against just dodging and queuing up for your main role again.
so now you have a system that gives you massive rewards toward your main role on a coin flip match in an off role. this all sounds like a highly stressful environment to play on your off role to me.
does that seem like a massive contradiction in ideals to anyone else? separate roles that are supposed to not be stressful and not influence each other that need large incentives to be played that leads to a stressful environment.
the result is we have a more convoluted system that replicates the functionality of the current system. what exactly do we gain by switching to this from the current system?
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On April 26 2018 23:54 Frolossus wrote: soooo essentially they want to separate the roles so people have less anxiety and stress about playing off roles.
I think you are missing what they are doing. It’s not about the helping people who randomly queue for an off role because they watched a highlight reel for a champ in that role. It’s about stopping those people from ruining your game.
Imagine bob is a A Sol one trick at gold 3, then he watches a lee sin highlight clip and immediately queues for jungle. His team will lose every single time because they don’t have a jungle main playing jungle. If you were on bob’s team, your game is ruined. Even if you got your main role and first pick you are still losing that game 85% of the time.
Under the new system, when A Sol Bob randomly queues as jungle, instead of putting him in your game they put him in a silver 4 game where maybe his gold 3 mechanics and macro make up for the fact that he isn’t really a jungler and his team still has a 50% chance to win.
If you primarily play one role, then this is a straight up improvement to your experience because you will have random feeders ruin your games less often.
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On April 27 2018 01:58 General_Winter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2018 23:54 Frolossus wrote: soooo essentially they want to separate the roles so people have less anxiety and stress about playing off roles.
I think you are missing what they are doing. It’s not about the helping people who randomly queue for an off role because they watched a highlight reel for a champ in that role. It’s about stopping those people from ruining your game. Imagine bob is a A Sol one trick at gold 3, then he watches a lee sin highlight clip and immediately queues for jungle. His team will lose every single time because they don’t have a jungle main playing jungle. If you were on bob’s team, your game is ruined. Even if you got your main role and first pick you are still losing that game 85% of the time. Under the new system, when A Sol Bob randomly queues as jungle, instead of putting him in your game they put him in a silver 4 game where maybe his gold 3 mechanics and macro make up for the fact that he isn’t really a jungler and his team still has a 50% chance to win. If you primarily play one role, then this is a straight up improvement to your experience because you will have random feeders ruin your games less often.
Seems like the problem is the existence of A-Sol Bob, but his existence is the whole point of role queueing.
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So I've played 97 games of ranked this season and have had 5 games not in primary role(All 5 being Support). I really don't understand why people make such a big deal about "autofill". Am I just exceedingly lucky? I've actually never lost as support either haha. Autofill isn't that bad before you hit Dia+ I think. It's just people use it as an excuse to troll. Those people troll in their normal positions anyway as well. So don't know if there will be much change with the new system or if it's even needed.
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I think it takes away excuses from people. People get all butt hurt bout any change, like when the roll thing came out the up roar was intense, now it is hard to find people who don't prefer it. This will likely be the same. It is likely not perfect but better then what it was like before.
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I think, upon reflection, if you got the right Rioters under the right substances, you would get a confession that the whole system is a ploy to get players to feel better about themselves. Like, if you are a G5 Toplane Singed OTP, but are Silver 5 at other things, you will likely end up ranked in silver unless you grind a lot of games. But using this system you will have far fewer non-Singed games affecting your toplane MMR, which is what will give you gold end of season rewards.
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I didn’t read it that closely because I know it will change a lot in 6 months but my immediate thought was I no longer give a fuck if I win or lose in off role it’s just a giagantic waste of time either way.
Also makes fill play Extremely unappealing as progress will be god awful.
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On April 27 2018 06:13 cLutZ wrote: I think, upon reflection, if you got the right Rioters under the right substances, you would get a confession that the whole system is a ploy to get players to feel better about themselves. Like, if you are a G5 Toplane Singed OTP, but are Silver 5 at other things, you will likely end up ranked in silver unless you grind a lot of games. But using this system you will have far fewer non-Singed games affecting your toplane MMR, which is what will give you gold end of season rewards.
this has to be the case. no other reason to decouple elo from ranking in the first place
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Autofill seems to be a lot better than in the beginning, but I don't have any stats to back it up, just my own view.
I don't really understand why Riot has decided to implement this system, no one really had a gripe with the way it currently ranks you. Seems to be a case of over-engineering, something companies who run out of innovation often fall into.
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They showed stats the other day about queue times and role selection. Shows that over the years they improved both by quite a bit so that autofill games are the vast minority while still having decent queue times. Really interesting post I should really link but I'm a bit tired right now...
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On April 26 2018 23:54 Frolossus wrote: soooo essentially they want to separate the roles so people have less anxiety and stress about playing off roles.
but then they want the outcome of games you play on off roles to contribute in some way through incentives toward your main role. then those incentives would have to be astronomically large to offset the chance of losing, wasting the time for playing the game, and getting nothing. against just dodging and queuing up for your main role again.
so now you have a system that gives you massive rewards toward your main role on a coin flip match in an off role. this all sounds like a highly stressful environment to play on your off role to me.
does that seem like a massive contradiction in ideals to anyone else? separate roles that are supposed to not be stressful and not influence each other that need large incentives to be played that leads to a stressful environment.
the result is we have a more convoluted system that replicates the functionality of the current system. what exactly do we gain by switching to this from the current system?
This seems like an overreaction or misunderstanding of the blog post.
How is it highly stressful to get free rewards now for playing offrole with better matchmaking compared to now where you don't get any rewards for playing offrole with worse matchmaking. If anything it should be less stressful since now you're presented with more rewards and less 'risk' for playing offrole. Compared to before, if you win on an offrole, great, you get to still rank up albeit on a different positoinal role and you get free rewards. If you lose, nbd, its not affecting the rank you actually care most about. Dodging now and dodging in this new system isnt any different, you'll just be missing out on the extra potential rewards. Besides, alot of what they mentioned isn't even set in stone, they just introduced a couple ideas they had and I think this attempt seems interesting enough to try.
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what will happen in the new role based rank when two friends let say play plat duoQ, they get into lobby, however one of them switches role to a silver role? will the lobby disband or will they get to play vs a plat-silver team as well? also the same when one or both get autofill and role gap appears suddenly?
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Honestly your thought train makes me realize you can really game this system: if you get a role you're really bad at, and ask if you can switch with someone to your main role, isn't it likely you will win? It won't work in the long run, but it seems really easy to exploit.
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On April 27 2018 08:18 DarkCore wrote: Honestly your thought train makes me realize you can really game this system: if you get a role you're really bad at, and ask if you can switch with someone to your main role, isn't it likely you will win? It won't work in the long run, but it seems really easy to exploit.
A rioter mentioned that they are using machine learning to help identify roles more accurately including off meta picks. Obviously not perfect but I think they could have it at a reasonable level for normal picks. If you swap picks and the system detects it, it'd be as if you queued with your main role but the MMR won't (and shouldn't) change since you and your duo swapping picks and MMR shouldn't affect the total MMR of the game.
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Was the Varus W change supposed to be a nerf? I swear he's become even better, his burst potential is no joke, and it even chunks tanks for quite a lot of dmg.
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On April 29 2018 02:07 DarkCore wrote: Was the Varus W change supposed to be a nerf? I swear he's become even better, his burst potential is no joke, and it even chunks tanks for quite a lot of dmg. Looking at patch notes, riot think he's balanced and they were looking to move (not add or remove) power in his kit. It's easy to think he's better because you'll remember the damage from the new W active while the loss of power on passive and W passive is hard (impossible?) to notice. Looking at winrates he's hardly performing better this patch.
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Nice.
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On April 29 2018 02:07 DarkCore wrote: Was the Varus W change supposed to be a nerf? I swear he's become even better, his burst potential is no joke, and it even chunks tanks for quite a lot of dmg. I think the whole point of the change was to add a level of skill expression first other than "position better", which is a staple for the whole position in general. I believe they said when they introduced it they would monitor how it'd perform so they'd have a better idea on how to nerf him in response.
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They nerfed his passive, and halved his lv 1 W dmg, but the missing health dmg on Q is pretty powerful, albeit in an AD caster way. Yeah his DPS has been reduced, but he's still pretty strong in lane, in fact it feels like he's able to blow someone up a lot easier.
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I just wish you could use his W while the arrow is in the air.
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I wonder if the game would be a better place without crit in it. If the game gets rebalanced (defensive items changed) to adapt to the critless game I think it may be overall more healthy.
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I hate how they have the opposite balance mind of Blizzard. If it's OP let people figure out how to work around it. There's a ton of champions. Instead of nerfing AD carries and making it so they can't 2 shot squishies because "it's not fun" buff anti-ad champions.
Lets get some Malphite E's buffs. Change his Q to be more utility and less mana or something. Release an anti-crit support item that is over powered but really only good against crits. Their response to everything is to gut the shit out of it, add some new mechanic and then wait and change the next OP thing.
Shit buff some old assassins so they can get played. ADC op? Lets see some Malphite top, Diana mid, Khazix jungle play. Just buff the shit out of everything and let counters work. Add in more mechanics like Malphite E. Who else has an attack speed slow on their kit?
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The issue with that is that you are looking more at a strength perspective than overall gameplay patterns. If you say "buff" a set of heroes to deal with AD carries then you create a situation where players are now forced into playing those heroes or they drastically reduce ability to win. This isn't giving them more options, it's reducing options.
League has always had a dynamic where ranged carries scale extremely hard with offensive items to the point where buying defense is actively bad. This warps the whole game around this concept. Buffing assassins for instance just creates a dynamic of "did you kill enemy in 0.5 seconds before they killed you". That isn't particularly interesting pattern of play.
I think it's pretty telling that people seem to enjoy laning phase the most, the phase where power level is far lower and doing anything takes time. This reminds me of SC2 vs BW. In BW everything was slower, units took some time to die(well mostly) which meant that the better player had far more room to express his play over the opponent, small clumps of armies fighting each other all over the map instead of huge deathballs that die in seconds. Lowering down AD to a point where they don't explode everyone but 100% tank in a second or two then adjusting everyone else may just improve how mid-late game fighting happens. Instead of this scared dash into explosion we get more drawn out fights that allow people more room to show of their abilities.
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I agree with this. Some of the most interesting team fights I have had are lvl 4-7 when you get 4v4 (5v5 once in a hile) bot lane from Tp's and roams and the fight takes over a full minute.
But I also agree that I would like to see some buffs to underused stuff as much or more then nerfs to "op" shit.
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What I'm trying to get at is that I'd love to see changes in design than say nerfs or buffs. There will always be something that is stronger, the key is to make the play that something creates fun and dynamic. Decoupling power curves so they aren't all homogeneous and loving overall damage by going full offensive might just create more interesting games than just buffing up underpowered/used stuff to the level of the stronger ones.
Crit is merely a rather erogenous example of a mechanic that serves one purpose and that purpose isn't enjoyable while it doesn't really create anything fun. It's just "hey look he crit and killed everyone" or "I crit in 2 hits to kill him while his 2 crits didn't". If they have to overhaul defensive items to deal with the lack of late game crit damage then that's fine too, it's a price worth paying.
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Increasing the time it takes for everything to die is the right way to go. If you check old replays you will see ADC rarely three shot each other. Itemization has changed minimally in comparison to mastery/rune changes which encouraged focusing on one stat (damage or tankiness), although the move from BT first to IE/Zeal was a big shift. If ADC were granted more sustain or innate tankiness, in return for giving up DPS, I think it would be fair.
I don't think crit should be entirely removed, it should just be reworked, like lethality. It is very difficult to try and keep ADC and AD assassin/bruiser itemization separate, crit is the big reason it is possible, because it only really kicks off when it gets stacked.
The issue with that is that you are looking more at a strength perspective than overall gameplay patterns. If you say "buff" a set of heroes to deal with AD carries then you create a situation where players are now forced into playing those heroes or they drastically reduce ability to win. This isn't giving them more options, it's reducing options
Comparing SC balance to LoL is a terrible argument anyway. There are well over 100 champions in League, compared to the few dozen SC units in any iteration of the series. SC doesn't add new units every season, there is an incentive to balance the game entirely, so unit numbers get tweaked. In League, there are too many interactions to even begin considering the subtle effects of numbers outside of a very broad scope or blatantly obvious interactions. A new champion gets added like every 3 months, with insane abilities to try and be viable in the current meta. That is why Riot likes nerfing champions, especially because we have seen so many examples where they still bounce back, even if it's after a few seasons (look at Lee Sin, or Ezreal). When champions get buffed, they have a very strong tendency to become meta.
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I'm not comparing SC balance to LoL balance. I was comparing SC2 design to BW design. Taking an aspect there "speed at which things happen/die" then using that to try explain the thoughts on allowing player expression. In no means was I saying LoL should be balanced like SC, it was talking about the design differences between BW and SC2.
Since it seems there was a misunderstanding, why not take Dota 2 then instead. One of the aspects I really enjoyed about Dota 2 is that fights are very gated on cooldown and damage(Depending on game situation obviously). This allows fights to have a more ebb and flow. Instead of an engagement taking a few seconds resulting in deaths it becomes this extended seesaw of darting in and out of fights, fighting on the edge with cooldown use. The game is able to play like this because of how damage profiles work. Going full offensive is very rare, only certain heroes in certain circumstances can do this. Instead most people build hybrid offense/damage or more utility.
Now I'm not saying the games should be the same, they both have strengths and weaknesses. If Riot's goal is to make engagements last longer(The assassin update comes to mind) then I think that's a worthy one. I think that's a better goal than merely nerfing or buffing heroes. They messed up trying to do this with the whole assassin update since they didn't overhaul the game itself instead merely gating damage in one class which just makes them feel shit. A goal I'd love for Riot to do is make going full offensive situational and not the default. This should open up far more doors.
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Froggen is playing banner rush Anivia vs Yasuo and it's working... I dont understand this game anymore.
EDIT: "I'm powerspiking" (Banner+Tear).
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I have high hopes for the adc changes making more things playable but a lot of champions won’t be much better if being able to asssist you jungler get scuttle level 2 is as important as the original announcement made it seem (I know changes are being revealed today)
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On May 02 2018 01:10 Jek wrote: Froggen is playing banner rush Anivia vs Yasuo and it's working... I dont understand this game anymore.
EDIT: "I'm powerspiking" (Banner+Tear).
Is that because he can wave clear so fast that the Super minion takes out the tower> and the yas can't get the banner minion cause he ill ult it?
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On May 02 2018 02:56 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2018 01:10 Jek wrote: Froggen is playing banner rush Anivia vs Yasuo and it's working... I dont understand this game anymore.
EDIT: "I'm powerspiking" (Banner+Tear). Is that because he can wave clear so fast that the Super minion takes out the tower> and the yas can't get the banner minion cause he ill ult it? I honestly dont know if he's just meming or whatever. He has been doing it in all his recent Anivia games, in the Yasuo game he kept upgrading the toplane (it was vs Maokai) which lead to Irelia being completely unlocked very early.
I guess it's for the unrelenting push like how Banner Karma or mid Sion work. Anivia got very strong base values if you can hit her double Q (considering it's Froggen.... yea) so it's not like she desperately need AP early. It offer a truckload of armor vs AD champs and the active is hell for AP champs so I guess it makes somewhat sense on a champion that just want to push in the early stages of the game.
His damage vs towers in post stats in all of the games was hilariously high.
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Froggen has a history of building random shit on Anivia and winning.
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yeah the other day he built frozen heart, runaans and banner in the same game
:shrug:
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Buff Malphite's E all you want, he needs to get in range for it so every other ult only (when the markman's flash is down).
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Froggen pretty much wins soloQ game playing whatever he wants wherever he wants. I watched him destroy multiple games in a row playing Talon top. His lane knowledge is beyond absurd, pretty much dumpsters anyone who isn't a pro or real talent. And when he doesn't win lane, he just roams at the perfect times and gets fed that way.
Watching him play support is pretty funny though
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