|
Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
Non-League of Legends discussion should go in the LiquidLegends Lounge.
Certain topics are blacklisted from LoL General Discussion and they include:- "Elo hell"
- The Tribunal
- Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
Additionally, the TL LoL Ten Commandments are available for you to reference if you have any questions about this subforum.
Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions. Lastly, confine QQing and bragging to their respective threads.
Irelia will be released this patch. To find out more about her, check here!
Patch 8.7: Live on April. 4th, 2018
+ Show Spoiler [Previous GD Threads & Patch Notes] +
|
Lux + Hat + POM
lazersfordayzorz
|
Leona Leona's attack reset makes attack damage pretty valuable for her, so we're shifting that to being her default adaptive stat. ONE SUN TWO STUN Leona defaults to attack damage as her default adaptive stat
Wait, when did Leo ever not have AD as her adaptive stat lol. Unless you're doing a wacky LichBane build?
|
On April 04 2018 08:21 AdsMoFro wrote: Leona Leona's attack reset makes attack damage pretty valuable for her, so we're shifting that to being her default adaptive stat. ONE SUN TWO STUN Leona defaults to attack damage as her default adaptive stat
Wait, when did Leo ever not have AD as her adaptive stat lol. Unless you're doing a wacky LichBane build? If both bonus AD and AP are 0, champs have assigned preferences(like how Camille decides which type of shield she gets). The default for Leona(like I'm assuming most tanks) is AP/magic.
|
On April 04 2018 08:59 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2018 08:21 AdsMoFro wrote: Leona Leona's attack reset makes attack damage pretty valuable for her, so we're shifting that to being her default adaptive stat. ONE SUN TWO STUN Leona defaults to attack damage as her default adaptive stat
Wait, when did Leo ever not have AD as her adaptive stat lol. Unless you're doing a wacky LichBane build? If both bonus AD and AP are 0, champs have assigned preferences(like how Camille decides which type of shield she gets). The default for Leona(like I'm assuming most tanks) is AP/magic.
Oh, for some reason I thought at the start of the game all damage from adaptive runes was AD until you pass a certain point. Now that I think about it, it makes complete sense to work the way you said lol.
|
Those minion gold changes seem huge since stacked waves are largely caster minions. Less gold to pick up after slow pushes is a biggie. Or am I overreacting?
|
Any minion change is going to unexpectedly impactful. I was watching old VODs last weekend and you will be amazed at how much less gold was available to teams, and how much bigger gold leads would get in an instant because you could just force your opponents to get 0 gold for several minutes.
|
I just want to say Alaric getting the last post after "DARKNESS" is iconic :ok_hand:
|
This Karthus buff looks pretty decent.
How long is the Leblanc revert supposed to take?
|
Ivern and Lux gonna be OP in this patch
|
I don't think the Lux buff changes her strength vs the rest of the cast at all.
|
On April 04 2018 09:42 Ansibled wrote:This Karthus buff looks pretty decent. How long is the Leblanc revert supposed to take? They just put it back up on the PBE.
|
On April 04 2018 09:42 AlterKot wrote: I just want to say Alaric getting the last post after "DARKNESS" is iconic :ok_hand: I post like three times per thread tho, not sure which way I should take it...
|
Dw fam tsall in good intention
|
The Vi “buffs” on the pbe are a net nerf I don’t know if much but the q change while really great doesn’t do anything to prevent it from being a mandatory max, meanwhile heavy nerfs to the first point her 3rd skill in return for 5% attack speed on a Melee???
Yikes
|
On April 04 2018 13:17 Slusher wrote: The Vi “buffs” on the pbe are a net nerf I don’t know if much but the q change while really great doesn’t do anything to prevent it from being a mandatory max, meanwhile heavy nerfs to the first point her 3rd skill in return for 5% attack speed on a Melee???
Yikes
Maybe they fixing bugs too. She probably the least reliable champ in the game... especially given she supposedly has an "unstoppable targeted cc" ultimate.
|
I think Vi's problem is the same as many other junglers: The role is tough to balance because there are PVP & PVE aspects and balancing the two within the context of the dozens of other balance changes is very hard right now.
|
I haven't played Mundo in years, maxing Q seems pretty obvious, I might've been thinking of the days of sustain tanks in top like Shyv and Renek from S3/4 idk.
Lux is becoming a big reset champ this patch, but her other problems still remain so it shouldn't be too crazy.
|
Gragas Q - Barrel Roll DAMAGE RATIO 0.6 ability power ⇒ 0.7 ability power W - Drunken Rage RATIO 0.3 ability power ⇒ 0.5 ability power FEEL NO PAIN Drunken Rage grants Gragas additional damage reduction equal to 4% per 100 ability power welcome back gragas mid?
|
|
Tenacity watch: Mercs: 30% Legend: Tenacity: 30% +sr Unflinching: 15%+20% + sr with both summs cd
about 66% tenacity and 50% slow resist
someone like mundo can get 75% tenacity and 50% slow resist
who needs olaf ultimate
|
On April 05 2018 00:29 Slayer91 wrote: Tenacity watch: Mercs: 30% Legend: Tenacity: 30% +sr Unflinching: 15%+20% + sr with both summs cd
about 66% tenacity and 50% slow resist
someone like mundo can get 75% tenacity and 50% slow resist
who needs olaf ultimate There is no slow resist on legend:tenacity. You can get another 25% tenacity with elixir of iron in case you don't have enough already.
|
my mistake thought i read it on the tooltip and was surprised turns out my brain surprised itself with something it made up unlucky
|
People agree that Irelia is broken right? Her stun is ridiculously strong, I can live with most of the rest of her kit but it's a low CD aoe stun with fantastic range and outplay potential, not to mention it has an incredibly fast animation. Surprising they let the ability through the way it is.
|
She was hotfixed and smacked across the board.
AD: 66 ⇒ 63 Armor: 34 ⇒ 31 Life: 580 ⇒ 550 Q: 0.8 AD ⇒ 0.7 AD E: Stun 0.8-1.2s ⇒ 0.75s R: Disarm 2s ⇒ 1.5s
So yea stun doesn't exist anymore. I didn't have any issue when I played against it but the guy seemed bad.
|
Successful rework everyone! Totally viable champ and we solved all the problems!
|
Massive FPS issues on this patch
|
Oh, it's not just me then. I have good fps, but since last patch every few minutes the game freezes for a solid 2 seconds.
Irelia stun is still quite strong in team fights. It doesn't lock you down forever, but it's on a pretty low CD, and combined with just how much damage she does in a short amount of time 0.75s is enough to 1vs2. It all relies on how fast and accurate Irelia can click, less about the opponents outplaying her.
|
Just had a thought that I would like to ask you all:
Assume you get a pre-minion first blood, just one kill, from a facecheck or something silly. Which position (on average) do you donate the kill for, assuming everyone can get into position for the waves to crash/jungle spawns? Also how does this change if you get the kill early enough to be able to back & buy?
|
On April 08 2018 14:22 cLutZ wrote: Just had a thought that I would like to ask you all:
Assume you get a pre-minion first blood, just one kill, from a facecheck or something silly. Which position (on average) do you donate the kill for, assuming everyone can get into position for the waves to crash/jungle spawns? Also how does this change if you get the kill early enough to be able to back & buy?
Jungle or mid. I think its more towards champions than roles.
|
it changes in that you get a doran or a longsword at level 1, that can be very relevant in a lot of lanes xD
|
I would say jungle so they can get the second jungle item, it helps massively.
Top lane or mid lane is good if it's a snowbally thing like riven vs yasuo or something like that
|
On April 08 2018 20:48 Slayer91 wrote: I would say jungle so they can get the second jungle item, it helps massively.
Top lane or mid lane is good if it's a snowbally thing like riven vs yasuo or something like that Or boots for Predator junglers.
|
Adc is probably last unless it’s Draven
|
On April 08 2018 20:48 Slayer91 wrote: I would say jungle so they can get the second jungle item, it helps massively.
Top lane or mid lane is good if it's a snowbally thing like riven vs yasuo or something like that
After a day of thinking, I think Jungle is almost always the answer when the First Blood is so close to minions crashing that laners can't back. Early backs in most matchups are not usually good enough to justify it over an early jungle back that also makes the jungler even better at clearing.
But, I think if you have time to back and get into lane, any Tear user is clearly choice #1. Starting the laning phase with tear just breaks the game when it comes to balance. Facing off against Cassio or Ryze 1v1 when they have a lvl 1 tear is just impossible. Also, I think a generic ADC getting a longsword advantage is often quite oppressive. This happened to me this afternoon and I was able to dominate in a bad matchup (Trist vs. Cait) from the get go.
Also, a lot of midlane value for non-tear users is probably lost. A lot of it is about thresholds when you can 1-shot the ranged minions, and I don't think there is any item you can buy with 400 gold that gets you that.
|
|
On April 09 2018 17:34 evilfatsh1t wrote: NERF CONQUEROR is conquer an issue? on whom? jax?
|
Love they are randomly buffing Sion on PBE, the "nerf" was more of a bugfix and only hit people that cannot land skillshots.
On April 09 2018 19:11 M2 wrote:is conquer an issue? on whom? jax? Nobody. It just means you can actually kill tanks and toplane is again action packed. :3
|
Conqueror is super easy to play around in early laning phase. Later on it does buff dueling champs in certain scenarios, but it's by no means overpowered.
|
On April 10 2018 02:41 Jek wrote:Love they are randomly buffing Sion on PBE, the "nerf" was more of a bugfix and only hit people that cannot land skillshots. Show nested quote +On April 09 2018 19:11 M2 wrote:On April 09 2018 17:34 evilfatsh1t wrote: NERF CONQUEROR is conquer an issue? on whom? jax? Nobody. It just means you can actually kill tanks and toplane is again action packed. :3 It was action packed before as well, tanks sucked outside of Sion and still do.
|
On April 10 2018 04:04 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2018 02:41 Jek wrote:Love they are randomly buffing Sion on PBE, the "nerf" was more of a bugfix and only hit people that cannot land skillshots. On April 09 2018 19:11 M2 wrote:On April 09 2018 17:34 evilfatsh1t wrote: NERF CONQUEROR is conquer an issue? on whom? jax? Nobody. It just means you can actually kill tanks and toplane is again action packed. :3 It was action packed before as well, tanks sucked outside of Sion and still do. Guess that's why tanks where picked in nearly every game in all regions finals.
|
On April 10 2018 08:10 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2018 04:04 Numy wrote:On April 10 2018 02:41 Jek wrote:Love they are randomly buffing Sion on PBE, the "nerf" was more of a bugfix and only hit people that cannot land skillshots. On April 09 2018 19:11 M2 wrote:On April 09 2018 17:34 evilfatsh1t wrote: NERF CONQUEROR is conquer an issue? on whom? jax? Nobody. It just means you can actually kill tanks and toplane is again action packed. :3 It was action packed before as well, tanks sucked outside of Sion and still do. Guess that's why tanks where picked in nearly every game in all regions finals. Competitive play is not the same as solo Q. Unless you one of those professional players those stats are meaningless. It's like Galio being a highly contested pick in comp play doesn't translate to solo q. Every metric in solo Q since the start of the season has shown that the only tanks be played are Ornn and Sion but after the Ornn nerfs he isn't seen much. Malphite has picked up a little bit but top lane is mostly carry orientated heroes. Gangplank for example has been one of if not the best top laner since the start of the season.
The narrative that top lane was just tank fest is unfortunately just fiction. If you wanted to have that kind of narrative you'd have to look maybe a year to a year and a half ago.
In other news they already nerfed Irelia so much. That kind of sucks especially when there's a stupid bug that could be growing her power by a fair amount.
ps: It's quite interesting you mention regional finals as evidence of tank fest while ignoring LPL and LCK which show a far more carry orientated slant. Speaks to how Western teams aren't comfortable with having a damage orientated top lane for the most part. G2 were in this position which is partly why Fnatic target banned him so heavily forcing a more passive stance that G2 didn't necessarily want out of Wunder. Context is important.
Top lane from a diversity of playstyle stand point has been possibly the best it's ever been this season Bottom side of the map may have a larger impact but that's another type of metric to look at.
|
The narrative isn't that toplane is nothing but tanks, it is that tanks can stonewall the lane very easy in nearly all match ups making nothing happen unless the jungler is there leaving the "better jungler win" feel whenever there's a tank involved. Unless you're fed there's zero counterplay to a Sion, Cho'Gath or <inserttankwithwaveclear> nearly insta-clearing the wave despite having build nothing but defensive items, Conqueror is a step in the right direction to solve the tanks option to brute force anti-fun on you.
Gangplank, Swain and Camille are sort of oddballs since they are perfectly fine with the farmfest as they are just a walking timebomb.
|
So let me get this straight. Tanks are not that strong, they do not have a high pick rate either yet they can completely negate the other top laner with no effort? If this is true then it implies tanks are masters at laning phase but fall off rapidly post laning otherwise they would be the dominant force in league. That doesn't sound right.
If you look at what's been strong historically in top lane this season. GP, Camille, Fiora, Illaoi, Sion, Ornn, Vlad, Kled,panth it paints a weird picture. One where you hear "tanks stonewalling everything making toplane bad" but then they don't have corresponding playrates or winrates or even mastery rates. So what's going on? Cho for instance is one of the easiest to abuse tanks in the early game.
So is this a case of a minor class of heroes that aren't particularly strong having such adverse play patterns that it burns this into peoples memories? It's really interesting why this kind of thing has happened when supporting evidence is just not there. Placebo? Marketing from Hashinshin types?
edit: I wonder if it's playstyles changing while people refuse to change? Do the better players in league at the top just shift the way they play to make their post laning impact highest which means tanks become weaker hence why the evidence isn't there? Is it a self correcting metagame thing?
|
On April 09 2018 19:11 M2 wrote:is conquer an issue? on whom? jax?
every game i played jax top lane conqueror gave less damage than aftershock would probably have given seemed pathetic. against super resist heavy tanks maybe it's good though.
|
On April 12 2018 00:05 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2018 19:11 M2 wrote:On April 09 2018 17:34 evilfatsh1t wrote: NERF CONQUEROR is conquer an issue? on whom? jax? every game i played jax top lane conqueror gave less damage than aftershock would probably have given seemed pathetic. against super resist heavy tanks maybe it's good though. Conqueror tooltip only tracks the true damage dealt. It also gives some bonus ad (10 ad at level 1 is clearly relevant) but we don't know how much extra damage we got from this. I don't play toplane so I can't comment on how good the rune feel. As an ADC main, coup de grace is dealing less extra damage than cutdown by a large margin but stats suggest both options are about equal. Coup de grace gives extra AD on takedowns which probably makes up for it.
|
On April 11 2018 23:07 Numy wrote: So let me get this straight. Tanks are not that strong, they do not have a high pick rate either yet they can completely negate the other top laner with no effort? If this is true then it implies tanks are masters at laning phase but fall off rapidly post laning otherwise they would be the dominant force in league. That doesn't sound right.
If you look at what's been strong historically in top lane this season. GP, Camille, Fiora, Illaoi, Sion, Ornn, Vlad, Kled,panth it paints a weird picture. One where you hear "tanks stonewalling everything making toplane bad" but then they don't have corresponding playrates or winrates or even mastery rates. So what's going on? Cho for instance is one of the easiest to abuse tanks in the early game.
So is this a case of a minor class of heroes that aren't particularly strong having such adverse play patterns that it burns this into peoples memories? It's really interesting why this kind of thing has happened when supporting evidence is just not there. Placebo? Marketing from Hashinshin types?
edit: I wonder if it's playstyles changing while people refuse to change? Do the better players in league at the top just shift the way they play to make their post laning impact highest which means tanks become weaker hence why the evidence isn't there? Is it a self correcting metagame thing?
Somtimes it would be nice if people actually played the game. When everyone complains the reason they aren't overrepresented could maybe be that only few people enjoy them? Lee Sin is still the most played jungler while he is quite shit.
The problem is not that I cannot play other champions anymore. The problem is that the autofilled toplaner can go Sion top and waveclear all day, maybe even die a few times and he still has decent impact on the teamfights while being braindead. It's very similiar to why the Janna e-girl meme exists you basicly do nothing and still perform decently.
Also about toplane this season being about those champs. GP was fucking busted at the start (and still is good) and is probably even worse than tanks to play against. Camille is the one other champion that is not a tank that is picked regularly. Fiora is fucking terrible and loses almost every game she gets picked. Illaoi was literally only there to counter tanks(Ornn). Vlad was pretty much instantly nerfed by removing that gp10 items and nobody plays him after that. Who even plays Kled lol?
Only other pick there is thats not a tank (also there arent even many more tanks that get picked in comp at least) is Gnar.
What gets picked toplane is so different from what is actually good in Soloq, so many Yasuo, Riven, etc one tricks running around the stats really get fucked by things like that.
If I go ADC/Mid I can't think really of a champion that I would want my autofilled guy on. Meanwhile in Top everyone would be like "go tank".
Toplane being the easiest to gank also makes gold dependent champs even worse and people will flame you if you don't go play a tank when the jungler picks something else.
Tanks being quite strong with 0 resources might be a result of the laneswap meta where champs had to work with 0 farm. It could also be because while everyone complains about tanks people still always want one in their team so as soon as we see metas without them they get buffed back.
|
On April 11 2018 23:07 Numy wrote: So let me get this straight. Tanks are not that strong, they do not have a high pick rate either yet they can completely negate the other top laner with no effort? If this is true then it implies tanks are masters at laning phase but fall off rapidly post laning otherwise they would be the dominant force in league. That doesn't sound right. Very strong laners that fall off compared to their opponent isn't really that unheard of. The Jax vs Renekton matches years ago would be a prime example.
On April 11 2018 23:07 Numy wrote: If you look at what's been strong historically in top lane this season. GP, Camille, Fiora, Illaoi, Sion, Ornn, Vlad, Kled,panth it paints a weird picture. One where you hear "tanks stonewalling everything making toplane bad" but then they don't have corresponding playrates or winrates or even mastery rates. So what's going on? Cho for instance is one of the easiest to abuse tanks in the early game. Cant you see what they all have in common? They are all either tanks or good against tanks.
On April 11 2018 23:07 Numy wrote: So is this a case of a minor class of heroes that aren't particularly strong having such adverse play patterns that it burns this into peoples memories? It's really interesting why this kind of thing has happened when supporting evidence is just not there. Placebo? Marketing from Hashinshin types?
Placebo? Hashinshin? Come on. Anyone that have played against perma-shoving immovable tanks know how horrible anti-fun it is if you're not playing a champion that are well equiped to deal with it. Being shoved in by champs like Gnar, Jayce or Vlad is different it feels like an actual interactive game where outplays are way more likely to happen.
I suppose I would agree with it being a minor class that have a horrible pattern so it forms a bias. But as a filthy Janna main I'm probably not one to complain about horrible play patterns. :^)
On April 11 2018 23:07 Numy wrote: edit: I wonder if it's playstyles changing while people refuse to change? Do the better players in league at the top just shift the way they play to make their post laning impact highest which means tanks become weaker hence why the evidence isn't there? Is it a self correcting metagame thing? I believe it's a bit of it all.
The better players play to win and just go with/search for the most efficient way to accomplish it at that given patch while the more casual value their entertainment higher than trends.
|
Anyone doing this clash thing this weekend? I'm interested NA top plat last few seasons only gold right now but have not played serious or much, Low plat is fair of my skill level.
|
I think you have to be ranked in flex to play idk I only glanced at it
|
On April 12 2018 01:11 loSleb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2018 23:07 Numy wrote: So let me get this straight. Tanks are not that strong, they do not have a high pick rate either yet they can completely negate the other top laner with no effort? If this is true then it implies tanks are masters at laning phase but fall off rapidly post laning otherwise they would be the dominant force in league. That doesn't sound right.
If you look at what's been strong historically in top lane this season. GP, Camille, Fiora, Illaoi, Sion, Ornn, Vlad, Kled,panth it paints a weird picture. One where you hear "tanks stonewalling everything making toplane bad" but then they don't have corresponding playrates or winrates or even mastery rates. So what's going on? Cho for instance is one of the easiest to abuse tanks in the early game.
So is this a case of a minor class of heroes that aren't particularly strong having such adverse play patterns that it burns this into peoples memories? It's really interesting why this kind of thing has happened when supporting evidence is just not there. Placebo? Marketing from Hashinshin types?
edit: I wonder if it's playstyles changing while people refuse to change? Do the better players in league at the top just shift the way they play to make their post laning impact highest which means tanks become weaker hence why the evidence isn't there? Is it a self correcting metagame thing? Somtimes it would be nice if people actually played the game. When everyone complains the reason they aren't overrepresented could maybe be that only few people enjoy them? Lee Sin is still the most played jungler while he is quite shit. The problem is not that I cannot play other champions anymore. The problem is that the autofilled toplaner can go Sion top and waveclear all day, maybe even die a few times and he still has decent impact on the teamfights while being braindead. It's very similiar to why the Janna e-girl meme exists you basicly do nothing and still perform decently. Also about toplane this season being about those champs. GP was fucking busted at the start (and still is good) and is probably even worse than tanks to play against. Camille is the one other champion that is not a tank that is picked regularly. Fiora is fucking terrible and loses almost every game she gets picked. Illaoi was literally only there to counter tanks(Ornn). Vlad was pretty much instantly nerfed by removing that gp10 items and nobody plays him after that. Who even plays Kled lol? Only other pick there is thats not a tank (also there arent even many more tanks that get picked in comp at least) is Gnar. What gets picked toplane is so different from what is actually good in Soloq, so many Yasuo, Riven, etc one tricks running around the stats really get fucked by things like that. If I go ADC/Mid I can't think really of a champion that I would want my autofilled guy on. Meanwhile in Top everyone would be like "go tank". Toplane being the easiest to gank also makes gold dependent champs even worse and people will flame you if you don't go play a tank when the jungler picks something else. Tanks being quite strong with 0 resources might be a result of the laneswap meta where champs had to work with 0 farm. It could also be because while everyone complains about tanks people still always want one in their team so as soon as we see metas without them they get buffed back. You know a thought I had reading this was that maybe it's far simplier than any of this. You mentioned Sion there but noone else. Everyone mentions Sion. I mentioned Sion. Is it tanks being strong of tank Sion being insanely strong? Sion is the only tank that's been at the top throughout this season. He's the only relevant tank. He's a monster in Comp play as well. Ornn and Cho aren't particularly great in solo Q, Cho is easily abused and takes awhile to get to his immovable phase, he's situationally a beast which is fine for a hero. Ornn has a stronger laning phase but is far harder to use later.
What I'm trying to get at, is this really a tank issue? If Sion was nerfed right now to the gutter would this conversation exist? I'm not really sure if you trying to take a jab at me for that first line or something else.
|
|
On April 12 2018 02:58 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2018 01:11 loSleb wrote:On April 11 2018 23:07 Numy wrote: So let me get this straight. Tanks are not that strong, they do not have a high pick rate either yet they can completely negate the other top laner with no effort? If this is true then it implies tanks are masters at laning phase but fall off rapidly post laning otherwise they would be the dominant force in league. That doesn't sound right.
If you look at what's been strong historically in top lane this season. GP, Camille, Fiora, Illaoi, Sion, Ornn, Vlad, Kled,panth it paints a weird picture. One where you hear "tanks stonewalling everything making toplane bad" but then they don't have corresponding playrates or winrates or even mastery rates. So what's going on? Cho for instance is one of the easiest to abuse tanks in the early game.
So is this a case of a minor class of heroes that aren't particularly strong having such adverse play patterns that it burns this into peoples memories? It's really interesting why this kind of thing has happened when supporting evidence is just not there. Placebo? Marketing from Hashinshin types?
edit: I wonder if it's playstyles changing while people refuse to change? Do the better players in league at the top just shift the way they play to make their post laning impact highest which means tanks become weaker hence why the evidence isn't there? Is it a self correcting metagame thing? Somtimes it would be nice if people actually played the game. When everyone complains the reason they aren't overrepresented could maybe be that only few people enjoy them? Lee Sin is still the most played jungler while he is quite shit. The problem is not that I cannot play other champions anymore. The problem is that the autofilled toplaner can go Sion top and waveclear all day, maybe even die a few times and he still has decent impact on the teamfights while being braindead. It's very similiar to why the Janna e-girl meme exists you basicly do nothing and still perform decently. Also about toplane this season being about those champs. GP was fucking busted at the start (and still is good) and is probably even worse than tanks to play against. Camille is the one other champion that is not a tank that is picked regularly. Fiora is fucking terrible and loses almost every game she gets picked. Illaoi was literally only there to counter tanks(Ornn). Vlad was pretty much instantly nerfed by removing that gp10 items and nobody plays him after that. Who even plays Kled lol? Only other pick there is thats not a tank (also there arent even many more tanks that get picked in comp at least) is Gnar. What gets picked toplane is so different from what is actually good in Soloq, so many Yasuo, Riven, etc one tricks running around the stats really get fucked by things like that. If I go ADC/Mid I can't think really of a champion that I would want my autofilled guy on. Meanwhile in Top everyone would be like "go tank". Toplane being the easiest to gank also makes gold dependent champs even worse and people will flame you if you don't go play a tank when the jungler picks something else. Tanks being quite strong with 0 resources might be a result of the laneswap meta where champs had to work with 0 farm. It could also be because while everyone complains about tanks people still always want one in their team so as soon as we see metas without them they get buffed back. You know a thought I had reading this was that maybe it's far simplier than any of this. You mentioned Sion there but noone else. Everyone mentions Sion. I mentioned Sion. Is it tanks being strong of tank Sion being insanely strong? Sion is the only tank that's been at the top throughout this season. He's the only relevant tank. He's a monster in Comp play as well. Ornn and Cho aren't particularly great in solo Q, Cho is easily abused and takes awhile to get to his immovable phase, he's situationally a beast which is fine for a hero. Ornn has a stronger laning phase but is far harder to use later. What I'm trying to get at, is this really a tank issue? If Sion was nerfed right now to the gutter would this conversation exist? I'm not really sure if you trying to take a jab at me for that first line or something else. Sion is just the current worst offender. Riot have been shoving this down our throat ever since they decided champs like Fizz and Ekko are not allowed to be played like bruisers.
|
Sion is an example of how an individual champion's kit can supersede the low priority of his champion class: tanks aren't super strong right now, but Sion has so many things going for him that he gets picked often.
I think tanks are in a good position, the problem is that their counters are pretty strong right now. GP, Camille, Fiora all love a good farm fest because there comes a point where they can blow up the tank and split push like no tomorrow. If they get ahead of the tank early, it gets even worse, but if they fall behind, then in most matchups all it means is that they'll have to play safe and wait for the 30 minute mark.
|
Tanks aren't strong, LCK doesn't play tanks, hard lol.
|
On April 14 2018 19:14 loSleb wrote:Tanks aren't strong, LCK doesn't play tanks, hard lol. Well, I see two adcs and full utility/tank morgana hahaha
|
|
The clash is awesome as fuck.
Also; I actually think building trinity force on Xin Zhao is straight up bad. Everyone thinks its the build, but like... idk man. You actually do just practically as much damage to squishies if you can hit your W with Black cleaver, you're tankier, and you get the same sticking power. All you lose is Attack speed which is kinda whatever on melees.
For shits and giggles, say you are level 11 with just trinity force or just black cleaver. lets assume you get a full Xin rotation off (W + E + R + autoQautoauto) assuming phase rush without celerity / water walking:
With Trinity force you do 85.75 more damage WITHOUT taking into account resistances or armor shred. Realistically, you do ~10% armor shred with cleaver. You also have 150 HP Now you have to consider that your ADC is shooting that thing. On a squishy champ, its very close. Against a tanky ass champion, Cleaver hard out preforms Trinity force.
Thing is, thats pretty damn close in effective combat power on a squishy champ; but you have to consider that junglers average around 200 gold per minute without taking into account starting gold or map objectives; that means you are getting cleaver 733/200 = 3.7 minutes sooner in the game than trinity force. And when you would have trinity you have Cleaver + Cleaver + kindlegem or cleaver + 2 cloth armor. If you get Cleaver & 2 longs swords cleaver actually does 55 damage more.
I think if you just rush Trinity + Steraks then trinity better, but like, I dont think you can build Warrior + Trinity + Steraks and not die immediately.
|
On April 15 2018 12:54 iCanada wrote:The clash is awesome as fuck. Also; I actually think building trinity force on Xin Zhao is straight up bad. Everyone thinks its the build, but like... idk man. You actually do just practically as much damage to squishies if you can hit your W with Black cleaver, you're tankier, and you get the same sticking power. All you lose is Attack speed which is kinda whatever on melees. For shits and giggles, say you are level 11 with just trinity force or just black cleaver. lets assume you get a full Xin rotation off (W + E + R + autoQautoauto) assuming phase rush without celerity / water walking: With Trinity force you do 85.75 more damage WITHOUT taking into account resistances or armor shred. Realistically, you do ~10% armor shred with cleaver. You also have 150 HP Now you have to consider that your ADC is shooting that thing. On a squishy champ, its very close. Against a tanky ass champion, Cleaver hard out preforms Trinity force. Thing is, thats pretty damn close in effective combat power on a squishy champ; but you have to consider that junglers average around 200 gold per minute without taking into account starting gold or map objectives; that means you are getting cleaver 733/200 = 3.7 minutes sooner in the game than trinity force. And when you would have trinity you have Cleaver + Cleaver + kindlegem or cleaver + 2 cloth armor. If you get Cleaver & 2 longs swords cleaver actually does 55 damage more. I think if you just rush Trinity + Steraks then trinity better, but like, I dont think you can build Warrior + Trinity + Steraks and not die immediately. Some of the triforce budget comes from attack speed and movement speed, which are good stats when Q takes several attacks to proc.
That damage also doesn't take into account the extra second or so it takes to do the full combo with cleaver instead of triforce from the attack speed difference.
I would agree that triforce is hard to build out of the jungle unless you're fed or okay with being useless for a while.
|
On April 15 2018 14:01 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2018 12:54 iCanada wrote:The clash is awesome as fuck. Also; I actually think building trinity force on Xin Zhao is straight up bad. Everyone thinks its the build, but like... idk man. You actually do just practically as much damage to squishies if you can hit your W with Black cleaver, you're tankier, and you get the same sticking power. All you lose is Attack speed which is kinda whatever on melees. For shits and giggles, say you are level 11 with just trinity force or just black cleaver. lets assume you get a full Xin rotation off (W + E + R + autoQautoauto) assuming phase rush without celerity / water walking: With Trinity force you do 85.75 more damage WITHOUT taking into account resistances or armor shred. Realistically, you do ~10% armor shred with cleaver. You also have 150 HP Now you have to consider that your ADC is shooting that thing. On a squishy champ, its very close. Against a tanky ass champion, Cleaver hard out preforms Trinity force. Thing is, thats pretty damn close in effective combat power on a squishy champ; but you have to consider that junglers average around 200 gold per minute without taking into account starting gold or map objectives; that means you are getting cleaver 733/200 = 3.7 minutes sooner in the game than trinity force. And when you would have trinity you have Cleaver + Cleaver + kindlegem or cleaver + 2 cloth armor. If you get Cleaver & 2 longs swords cleaver actually does 55 damage more. I think if you just rush Trinity + Steraks then trinity better, but like, I dont think you can build Warrior + Trinity + Steraks and not die immediately. Some of the triforce budget comes from attack speed and movement speed, which are good stats when Q takes several attacks to proc. That damage also doesn't take into account the extra second or so it takes to do the full combo with cleaver instead of triforce from the attack speed difference. I would agree that triforce is hard to build out of the jungle unless you're fed or okay with being useless for a while.
The difference in attack speed is real small. Its just 2 attack cool downs, and your already have +40% attack speed from E. You also get the move-speed from Black Cleaver. Difference of 1.363 attacks per second and 1.129 attacks per second.
The difference is 1.54s for the auto attack portions vs 1.72s for the auto attack portion @ level 11.
I think if you are fed enough for triforce to be better than Cleaver, you legit could build like Nashors tooth + Deathcap and it be K.
http://na.op.gg/champion/xinzhao/statistics/jungle
Thing is, literally everyone is building trinity and not BC.
|
|
On April 15 2018 14:26 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2018 14:01 Amui wrote:On April 15 2018 12:54 iCanada wrote:The clash is awesome as fuck. Also; I actually think building trinity force on Xin Zhao is straight up bad. Everyone thinks its the build, but like... idk man. You actually do just practically as much damage to squishies if you can hit your W with Black cleaver, you're tankier, and you get the same sticking power. All you lose is Attack speed which is kinda whatever on melees. For shits and giggles, say you are level 11 with just trinity force or just black cleaver. lets assume you get a full Xin rotation off (W + E + R + autoQautoauto) assuming phase rush without celerity / water walking: With Trinity force you do 85.75 more damage WITHOUT taking into account resistances or armor shred. Realistically, you do ~10% armor shred with cleaver. You also have 150 HP Now you have to consider that your ADC is shooting that thing. On a squishy champ, its very close. Against a tanky ass champion, Cleaver hard out preforms Trinity force. Thing is, thats pretty damn close in effective combat power on a squishy champ; but you have to consider that junglers average around 200 gold per minute without taking into account starting gold or map objectives; that means you are getting cleaver 733/200 = 3.7 minutes sooner in the game than trinity force. And when you would have trinity you have Cleaver + Cleaver + kindlegem or cleaver + 2 cloth armor. If you get Cleaver & 2 longs swords cleaver actually does 55 damage more. I think if you just rush Trinity + Steraks then trinity better, but like, I dont think you can build Warrior + Trinity + Steraks and not die immediately. Some of the triforce budget comes from attack speed and movement speed, which are good stats when Q takes several attacks to proc. That damage also doesn't take into account the extra second or so it takes to do the full combo with cleaver instead of triforce from the attack speed difference. I would agree that triforce is hard to build out of the jungle unless you're fed or okay with being useless for a while. The difference in attack speed is real small. Its just 2 attack cool downs, and your already have +40% attack speed from E. You also get the move-speed from Black Cleaver. Difference of 1.363 attacks per second and 1.129 attacks per second. The difference is 1.54s for the auto attack portions vs 1.72s for the auto attack portion @ level 11. I think if you are fed enough for triforce to be better than Cleaver, you legit could build like Nashors tooth + Deathcap and it be K. http://na.op.gg/champion/xinzhao/statistics/jungleThing is, literally everyone is building trinity and not BC.
-You're assuming you can get 4 autos in but you're not assuming you can get the second trinity proc. -You're ignoring the 8% movement speed on trinity which is great for closing the gap to get in range for E -You seem to be counting BC ms but not trinity ms which is better as it gives 60 after a kill. -You're ignoring ~1000 gold worth of attack speed for the reason that it was harder to calculate the difference. -You're assuming a xin zhao is focusing the same target as the ADC. Might sometimes work because of Xins R but if R isn't up focusing a tank while their team focuses you will always turn out badly in an even fight. Sometimes even with your R it won't work out so well.
+You didn't calculate in the armour shred of BC and the extra hp it provides. However, most of xins damage comes in before the BC stacks are procced fully. And we expect sheen provides much more dps than that over a 6-8s fight.
So basically your argument is that getting a pickaxe+giants belt is essentially better than a trinity force. Have you tried playing Trinity xin vs BC xin to check your findings? I've always found trinity to feel far superior damage wise even if it's more expensive.
You said the difference in attack speed is small but the 40% attack speed is worth 2x as much as the 15 AD which you meticulously calculated out. (1000 gold AS vs 525 gold AD) Also sheen gets much better with levels/steraks as pointed out by others.
Looking at xin's League wiki he has 3.1 AD ratio from 3x Q + passive + W + R + E. 4 Autos = 4.0 AD ratio. Total 7.1 AD ratio. Napkinning it level 11's Xin damgage WITHOUT BC is 1100 - 7.1x40 = 800 damage. Trinity ~ 1200. ~1400 with 2 procs. (Assuming here BC armpen == 40% AS where AS is probably better)
Trinity 1 proc: 50% increase BC without armpen: 37.5.% increase Trinity 2 proc: 75% increase.
So if you get 2 trinity procs trinity is approximately 2x better than BC in terms of improving your damage output. Which is why it probably feels like it's 2x better.
|
On April 15 2018 14:50 AdsMoFro wrote:LOL! Classic Csheep!
I think picking irelia vs 2x tanks + lulu/vayne is probably worse than everything that happened in that trading phase
|
Did you play new irelia yet?
|
|
I'd argue any math assuming more than 2 melle attacks is inherently suspect.
|
Everyone knows math is inherently suspect, only trust feelings, religion and your gut.
|
On April 16 2018 01:17 cLutZ wrote: I'd argue any math assuming more than 2 melle attacks is inherently suspect.
This is also true, but then you start to come to the conclusion auto attacking melee champions are garbage except for split pushing which is basically what happens in pro play but sometimes we see tank jax so i guess its k.
|
I mean I’m the case of Xin I think you have to give him 3 autos in your assumptions because he’s sucking dick with any items in a world where he can’t
|
sounds about right
i mean in small skirmishes earlier he's strong but in teamfights it can be bad news bears
|
|
And they got absolutley pwned. Expect and Jesiz dies a millions times each lol
|
On April 15 2018 21:39 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2018 14:26 iCanada wrote:On April 15 2018 14:01 Amui wrote:On April 15 2018 12:54 iCanada wrote:The clash is awesome as fuck. Also; I actually think building trinity force on Xin Zhao is straight up bad. Everyone thinks its the build, but like... idk man. You actually do just practically as much damage to squishies if you can hit your W with Black cleaver, you're tankier, and you get the same sticking power. All you lose is Attack speed which is kinda whatever on melees. For shits and giggles, say you are level 11 with just trinity force or just black cleaver. lets assume you get a full Xin rotation off (W + E + R + autoQautoauto) assuming phase rush without celerity / water walking: With Trinity force you do 85.75 more damage WITHOUT taking into account resistances or armor shred. Realistically, you do ~10% armor shred with cleaver. You also have 150 HP Now you have to consider that your ADC is shooting that thing. On a squishy champ, its very close. Against a tanky ass champion, Cleaver hard out preforms Trinity force. Thing is, thats pretty damn close in effective combat power on a squishy champ; but you have to consider that junglers average around 200 gold per minute without taking into account starting gold or map objectives; that means you are getting cleaver 733/200 = 3.7 minutes sooner in the game than trinity force. And when you would have trinity you have Cleaver + Cleaver + kindlegem or cleaver + 2 cloth armor. If you get Cleaver & 2 longs swords cleaver actually does 55 damage more. I think if you just rush Trinity + Steraks then trinity better, but like, I dont think you can build Warrior + Trinity + Steraks and not die immediately. Some of the triforce budget comes from attack speed and movement speed, which are good stats when Q takes several attacks to proc. That damage also doesn't take into account the extra second or so it takes to do the full combo with cleaver instead of triforce from the attack speed difference. I would agree that triforce is hard to build out of the jungle unless you're fed or okay with being useless for a while. The difference in attack speed is real small. Its just 2 attack cool downs, and your already have +40% attack speed from E. You also get the move-speed from Black Cleaver. Difference of 1.363 attacks per second and 1.129 attacks per second. The difference is 1.54s for the auto attack portions vs 1.72s for the auto attack portion @ level 11. I think if you are fed enough for triforce to be better than Cleaver, you legit could build like Nashors tooth + Deathcap and it be K. http://na.op.gg/champion/xinzhao/statistics/jungleThing is, literally everyone is building trinity and not BC. -You're assuming you can get 4 autos in but you're not assuming you can get the second trinity proc. -You're ignoring the 8% movement speed on trinity which is great for closing the gap to get in range for E -You seem to be counting BC ms but not trinity ms which is better as it gives 60 after a kill. -You're ignoring ~1000 gold worth of attack speed for the reason that it was harder to calculate the difference. -You're assuming a xin zhao is focusing the same target as the ADC. Might sometimes work because of Xins R but if R isn't up focusing a tank while their team focuses you will always turn out badly in an even fight. Sometimes even with your R it won't work out so well. +You didn't calculate in the armour shred of BC and the extra hp it provides. However, most of xins damage comes in before the BC stacks are procced fully. And we expect sheen provides much more dps than that over a 6-8s fight. So basically your argument is that getting a pickaxe+giants belt is essentially better than a trinity force. Have you tried playing Trinity xin vs BC xin to check your findings? I've always found trinity to feel far superior damage wise even if it's more expensive. You said the difference in attack speed is small but the 40% attack speed is worth 2x as much as the 15 AD which you meticulously calculated out. (1000 gold AS vs 525 gold AD) Also sheen gets much better with levels/steraks as pointed out by others. Looking at xin's League wiki he has 3.1 AD ratio from 3x Q + passive + W + R + E. 4 Autos = 4.0 AD ratio. Total 7.1 AD ratio. Napkinning it level 11's Xin damgage WITHOUT BC is 1100 - 7.1x40 = 800 damage. Trinity ~ 1200. ~1400 with 2 procs. (Assuming here BC armpen == 40% AS where AS is probably better) Trinity 1 proc: 50% increase BC without armpen: 37.5.% increase Trinity 2 proc: 75% increase. So if you get 2 trinity procs trinity is approximately 2x better than BC in terms of improving your damage output. Which is why it probably feels like it's 2x better.
For the record, I spend all day farting around with spreadsheets, the calc doesn't take long. I also just find it kind of interesting in a problem solving kind of way.
+ Show Spoiler +-You're assuming you can get 4 autos in but you're not assuming you can get the second trinity proc. How exactly are you playing Xin so that you are getting 2 sheen procs in a single round of spells? Have you played him before? All his CD's are higher than 6s with 40% CDR and hitting all your autos from Q. The only way you get 2 sheen procs in is if you are flanking in an odd man skirmish and engaging from behind with W-Q and holding E for a flash/escape, in which case it doesn't really matter what items you have; just kind of a win more excercise at that point.
+ Show Spoiler +-You're ignoring the 8% movement speed on trinity which is great for closing the gap to get in range for E Its 5% MS. On Xin w/ t2 boots this is the difference between 370 base MS and 388 MS; we're talking an extra 5s to move a teemo length... Considering Xin has a 900 range 50% slow for 1.5s on his W, its kind of negligible if you can hit your W, because you have like 3 teemos in which you gain ground in that 1.5s.
Your E has a 600 range, for the record; in combination with your W, basically if they can hit you, you can E to them even if you dont have T2 boots.
+ Show Spoiler +-You seem to be counting BC ms but not trinity ms which is better as it gives 60 after a kill. BC and Trinity force literally have an identical rage passive. They both give 60 after a kill or an assist.
+ Show Spoiler +-You're ignoring ~1000 gold worth of attack speed for the reason that it was harder to calculate the difference. I'm not ignoring it. It is just relatively negligible because Xin's base AS is very low and his Q is also an AS reset. Its a difference of 0.25s to complete the combo; like its to the point where terrain and kiting in most fights will make it identical; you will get 4 autos because you have the dash, phase rush, ult zone, and the slows.... but you likely wont get more than that off. You also will never be standing still autoing something unless it is diving your carry or something... in which case the armor shred will out-preform the sheen anyway.
My point is more that 1000 gold worth of attack speed is kind of a poor investment on Xin because he is melee and has an auto reset
+ Show Spoiler +-You're assuming a xin zhao is focusing the same target as the ADC. Might sometimes work because of Xins R but if R isn't up focusing a tank while their team focuses you will always turn out badly in an even fight. Sometimes even with your R it won't work out so well. No I'm not, I'm just saying that BC gives potentially more team damage and nearly similar solo damage, but you're also tankier.
+ Show Spoiler +Have you tried playing Trinity xin vs BC xin to check your findings? I've always found trinity to feel far superior damage wise even if it's more expensive. Yeah, I actually find them to be relatively similiar. I dunno, if you manage to 1v1 a squishy with trinity it feels fucking great, but I dont really see that a lot in my games. Must be a play-style thing, or perhaps you're significantly better than me at finding squishies alone. In any case, Xin is my highest winrate jungler, and I've been building BC almost exclusively for about 2 patches now. Idk, lategame xin with trinity force feels fucking awful; like you can be fed as balls and then the top laner you camped all game who has 3k less gold than you just kills you. Feels way better mid late having that BC... perhaps this is a symptom of me being lower ELO than you and games just lasting longer, idk.
Even if damage is your big concern, because of Xin's reworked W just having more AD for the ARAM thing is good too. He isn't old Xin that is kinda all in or bust, he has a lot more options now a days, and while its not a huge factor or margin, BC is better for this scenario than TF bar none.
Other big plus to BC that hasn't really been discussed is it is a much much nicer build path assuming you going like Warrior > Boots2 > Phage > other components. Kindlegem is much nicer to build than Sheen or Stinger; you're guaranteed to get your ruby crystal + pink ward whereas depending on your back timings for how things are going macro-wise getting stuck with a mana crystal or a dagger doesn't really get you any combat power. Much more consistent power curve this way.
For giggles, lets assume you do get two sheen procs off in this skirmish: + Show Spoiler +Note: eHP calcs done using average between armor and Mres, and resists column assumes you bought 1 cloth and 1 null magic. Realistically, most games you are just scared of one combat threat, so you likely get another ~8% eHP going that route than shown against your primary damage threat, but for the sake of simplicity lets roll with it this way.
The other thing that I look at, is pro's are building cleaver much more frequently than the general public is, and while a lot of pros build badly, I think there is some merit there because a lot of pros get told to build whatever is most optimal by a coach.
http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/XinZhao
Last 40 games a pro has played in challenger+, 17 of them have built Trinity force (42.5%), 15 of them have built Cleaver (37.5%), and 8 of them built neither (20%). In comparison with general populous, on op.gg ~78% of Xin's are building Trinity Force, and ~3% are building Black Cleaver, with 19% building neither. In any event, pros build cleaver at a rate 10x higher than the general public, and trinity force at half the rate of the general public. Maybe this has to do with them having more faith their ADC can do damage too, idk. In the very least I think Cleaver is being hard slept on.
|
On April 16 2018 03:02 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2018 01:17 cLutZ wrote: I'd argue any math assuming more than 2 melle attacks is inherently suspect. This is also true, but then you start to come to the conclusion auto attacking melee champions are garbage except for split pushing which is basically what happens in pro play but sometimes we see tank jax so i guess its k. Tank Jax isn't competing for the same role though. He is there for his clear speed, dragons, etc. If your plans involve a jungle Jax initiating with Flash-Counterstrike, you haven't made great plans.
|
Jax has awful clear and dragoning wtf?
I mean his ganks are skirmishing are pretty good but he is a single target autoattacker with low CDs and minimal AoE your clear is one of the worst out of any meta jungler I think lol.
Actually his ganks aren't even that great.
|
On April 16 2018 10:35 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2018 21:39 Slayer91 wrote:On April 15 2018 14:26 iCanada wrote:On April 15 2018 14:01 Amui wrote:On April 15 2018 12:54 iCanada wrote:The clash is awesome as fuck. Also; I actually think building trinity force on Xin Zhao is straight up bad. Everyone thinks its the build, but like... idk man. You actually do just practically as much damage to squishies if you can hit your W with Black cleaver, you're tankier, and you get the same sticking power. All you lose is Attack speed which is kinda whatever on melees. For shits and giggles, say you are level 11 with just trinity force or just black cleaver. lets assume you get a full Xin rotation off (W + E + R + autoQautoauto) assuming phase rush without celerity / water walking: With Trinity force you do 85.75 more damage WITHOUT taking into account resistances or armor shred. Realistically, you do ~10% armor shred with cleaver. You also have 150 HP Now you have to consider that your ADC is shooting that thing. On a squishy champ, its very close. Against a tanky ass champion, Cleaver hard out preforms Trinity force. Thing is, thats pretty damn close in effective combat power on a squishy champ; but you have to consider that junglers average around 200 gold per minute without taking into account starting gold or map objectives; that means you are getting cleaver 733/200 = 3.7 minutes sooner in the game than trinity force. And when you would have trinity you have Cleaver + Cleaver + kindlegem or cleaver + 2 cloth armor. If you get Cleaver & 2 longs swords cleaver actually does 55 damage more. I think if you just rush Trinity + Steraks then trinity better, but like, I dont think you can build Warrior + Trinity + Steraks and not die immediately. Some of the triforce budget comes from attack speed and movement speed, which are good stats when Q takes several attacks to proc. That damage also doesn't take into account the extra second or so it takes to do the full combo with cleaver instead of triforce from the attack speed difference. I would agree that triforce is hard to build out of the jungle unless you're fed or okay with being useless for a while. The difference in attack speed is real small. Its just 2 attack cool downs, and your already have +40% attack speed from E. You also get the move-speed from Black Cleaver. Difference of 1.363 attacks per second and 1.129 attacks per second. The difference is 1.54s for the auto attack portions vs 1.72s for the auto attack portion @ level 11. I think if you are fed enough for triforce to be better than Cleaver, you legit could build like Nashors tooth + Deathcap and it be K. http://na.op.gg/champion/xinzhao/statistics/jungleThing is, literally everyone is building trinity and not BC. -You're assuming you can get 4 autos in but you're not assuming you can get the second trinity proc. -You're ignoring the 8% movement speed on trinity which is great for closing the gap to get in range for E -You seem to be counting BC ms but not trinity ms which is better as it gives 60 after a kill. -You're ignoring ~1000 gold worth of attack speed for the reason that it was harder to calculate the difference. -You're assuming a xin zhao is focusing the same target as the ADC. Might sometimes work because of Xins R but if R isn't up focusing a tank while their team focuses you will always turn out badly in an even fight. Sometimes even with your R it won't work out so well. +You didn't calculate in the armour shred of BC and the extra hp it provides. However, most of xins damage comes in before the BC stacks are procced fully. And we expect sheen provides much more dps than that over a 6-8s fight. So basically your argument is that getting a pickaxe+giants belt is essentially better than a trinity force. Have you tried playing Trinity xin vs BC xin to check your findings? I've always found trinity to feel far superior damage wise even if it's more expensive. You said the difference in attack speed is small but the 40% attack speed is worth 2x as much as the 15 AD which you meticulously calculated out. (1000 gold AS vs 525 gold AD) Also sheen gets much better with levels/steraks as pointed out by others. Looking at xin's League wiki he has 3.1 AD ratio from 3x Q + passive + W + R + E. 4 Autos = 4.0 AD ratio. Total 7.1 AD ratio. Napkinning it level 11's Xin damgage WITHOUT BC is 1100 - 7.1x40 = 800 damage. Trinity ~ 1200. ~1400 with 2 procs. (Assuming here BC armpen == 40% AS where AS is probably better) Trinity 1 proc: 50% increase BC without armpen: 37.5.% increase Trinity 2 proc: 75% increase. So if you get 2 trinity procs trinity is approximately 2x better than BC in terms of improving your damage output. Which is why it probably feels like it's 2x better. For the record, I spend all day farting around with spreadsheets, the calc doesn't take long. I also just find it kind of interesting in a problem solving kind of way. + Show Spoiler +-You're assuming you can get 4 autos in but you're not assuming you can get the second trinity proc. How exactly are you playing Xin so that you are getting 2 sheen procs in a single round of spells? Have you played him before? All his CD's are higher than 6s with 40% CDR and hitting all your autos from Q. The only way you get 2 sheen procs in is if you are flanking in an odd man skirmish and engaging from behind with W-Q and holding E for a flash/escape, in which case it doesn't really matter what items you have; just kind of a win more excercise at that point. + Show Spoiler +-You're ignoring the 8% movement speed on trinity which is great for closing the gap to get in range for E Its 5% MS. On Xin w/ t2 boots this is the difference between 370 base MS and 388 MS; we're talking an extra 5s to move a teemo length... Considering Xin has a 900 range 50% slow for 1.5s on his W, its kind of negligible if you can hit your W, because you have like 3 teemos in which you gain ground in that 1.5s. Your E has a 600 range, for the record; in combination with your W, basically if they can hit you, you can E to them even if you dont have T2 boots. + Show Spoiler +-You seem to be counting BC ms but not trinity ms which is better as it gives 60 after a kill. BC and Trinity force literally have an identical rage passive. They both give 60 after a kill or an assist. + Show Spoiler +-You're ignoring ~1000 gold worth of attack speed for the reason that it was harder to calculate the difference. I'm not ignoring it. It is just relatively negligible because Xin's base AS is very low and his Q is also an AS reset. Its a difference of 0.25s to complete the combo; like its to the point where terrain and kiting in most fights will make it identical; you will get 4 autos because you have the dash, phase rush, ult zone, and the slows.... but you likely wont get more than that off. You also will never be standing still autoing something unless it is diving your carry or something... in which case the armor shred will out-preform the sheen anyway. My point is more that 1000 gold worth of attack speed is kind of a poor investment on Xin because he is melee and has an auto reset + Show Spoiler +-You're assuming a xin zhao is focusing the same target as the ADC. Might sometimes work because of Xins R but if R isn't up focusing a tank while their team focuses you will always turn out badly in an even fight. Sometimes even with your R it won't work out so well. No I'm not, I'm just saying that BC gives potentially more team damage and nearly similar solo damage, but you're also tankier. + Show Spoiler +Have you tried playing Trinity xin vs BC xin to check your findings? I've always found trinity to feel far superior damage wise even if it's more expensive. Yeah, I actually find them to be relatively similiar. I dunno, if you manage to 1v1 a squishy with trinity it feels fucking great, but I dont really see that a lot in my games. Must be a play-style thing, or perhaps you're significantly better than me at finding squishies alone. In any case, Xin is my highest winrate jungler, and I've been building BC almost exclusively for about 2 patches now. Idk, lategame xin with trinity force feels fucking awful; like you can be fed as balls and then the top laner you camped all game who has 3k less gold than you just kills you. Feels way better mid late having that BC... perhaps this is a symptom of me being lower ELO than you and games just lasting longer, idk. Even if damage is your big concern, because of Xin's reworked W just having more AD for the ARAM thing is good too. He isn't old Xin that is kinda all in or bust, he has a lot more options now a days, and while its not a huge factor or margin, BC is better for this scenario than TF bar none. Other big plus to BC that hasn't really been discussed is it is a much much nicer build path assuming you going like Warrior > Boots2 > Phage > other components. Kindlegem is much nicer to build than Sheen or Stinger; you're guaranteed to get your ruby crystal + pink ward whereas depending on your back timings for how things are going macro-wise getting stuck with a mana crystal or a dagger doesn't really get you any combat power. Much more consistent power curve this way. For giggles, lets assume you do get two sheen procs off in this skirmish: + Show Spoiler +Note: eHP calcs done using average between armor and Mres, and resists column assumes you bought 1 cloth and 1 null magic. Realistically, most games you are just scared of one combat threat, so you likely get another ~8% eHP going that route than shown against your primary damage threat, but for the sake of simplicity lets roll with it this way. The other thing that I look at, is pro's are building cleaver much more frequently than the general public is, and while a lot of pros build badly, I think there is some merit there because a lot of pros get told to build whatever is most optimal by a coach. http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/XinZhaoLast 40 games a pro has played in challenger+, 17 of them have built Trinity force (42.5%), 15 of them have built Cleaver (37.5%), and 8 of them built neither (20%). In comparison with general populous, on op.gg ~78% of Xin's are building Trinity Force, and ~3% are building Black Cleaver, with 19% building neither. In any event, pros build cleaver at a rate 10x higher than the general public, and trinity force at half the rate of the general public. Maybe this has to do with them having more faith their ADC can do damage too, idk. In the very least I think Cleaver is being hard slept on.
I'll be honest I haven't played too much new Xin but I would assume post trinity you'd try to hit W after you hit the knockup which should be around the time sheen comes up again.
I don't think ignoring attack speed while doing hard calcs for everything else is justified. Again you just make up some stuff like "0.25s isn't that much" when it could be the difference between getting the combo off and not getting it off, depending on getting CC'd or the enemy getting out of range etc. Attack speed is effective even when you are stutter stepping. You remember those turbo korean kogs? They were doing it because stutter stepping is effective regardless of AS.
I could easily make the same argument you're making that you can definitely get 4 autos off with 40% more AS but you'll only get 3 and no knockup without it.. it's baseless.
My bad about the BC, I just read the lolwiki's and the thought the tooltip was different. I was surprised too I thought they were the same and it turns out they are lol.
Movement speed is relative. 20 more ms is a big deal if you are chasing down a squishy at the edge of your E range. If you've ever played any non hard gap closer champ with a speedup you should be able to appreciate that it's essential for closing a gap against any targets that try to run. The E just adds a 600 range buffer.
As for the pro stats, I don't think Xin would be too effective in pro play as you'd just focus him down. As a result any builds that tend toward full tank will gain more popularity at higher levels. The damage items are great for earlier on but in teamfight phase normally you want to be tanky so having glass cannon xin mightn't be too effective. I may be wrong about this. At any rate the easiest way to play is to have melees going tank, I'm not certain it's always the best though.
You're correct that BC gives more team stats and tankiness, if it was similar damage wise for teamfights and skirmishing it would definitely be superior but I'm not convinced at all.
I didn't check out your new numbers but I don't understand why the numbers for the original cases have changed.
P.S I like the "Firepower" stat Damage*EHP as a metric for your overall dueling power. I remember theorycrafting around and it usually gives the general result of who wins a generic 1v1. Basically if you have 2x the HP you have 2x the Time to live and if you have 2x the DPS enemy has 1/2 the TTL so it should work out. Damage + EHP is misleading because high EHP+low dmg or high dmg + low EHP might seem effective but its a terrible indicator of dueling strength.
EDIT: I notice E max second on xin seems standard from champion.gg. I would have thought Q second is better for the extra knockups? 20% AS and 100 dmg is a decent damage hit but you get 60 more Q dmg + lower CDs on Q, and W/E with the CDR from Q. Maybe E second is a big help for clearing?
|
On April 18 2018 02:30 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2018 10:35 iCanada wrote:On April 15 2018 21:39 Slayer91 wrote:On April 15 2018 14:26 iCanada wrote:On April 15 2018 14:01 Amui wrote:On April 15 2018 12:54 iCanada wrote:The clash is awesome as fuck. Also; I actually think building trinity force on Xin Zhao is straight up bad. Everyone thinks its the build, but like... idk man. You actually do just practically as much damage to squishies if you can hit your W with Black cleaver, you're tankier, and you get the same sticking power. All you lose is Attack speed which is kinda whatever on melees. For shits and giggles, say you are level 11 with just trinity force or just black cleaver. lets assume you get a full Xin rotation off (W + E + R + autoQautoauto) assuming phase rush without celerity / water walking: With Trinity force you do 85.75 more damage WITHOUT taking into account resistances or armor shred. Realistically, you do ~10% armor shred with cleaver. You also have 150 HP Now you have to consider that your ADC is shooting that thing. On a squishy champ, its very close. Against a tanky ass champion, Cleaver hard out preforms Trinity force. Thing is, thats pretty damn close in effective combat power on a squishy champ; but you have to consider that junglers average around 200 gold per minute without taking into account starting gold or map objectives; that means you are getting cleaver 733/200 = 3.7 minutes sooner in the game than trinity force. And when you would have trinity you have Cleaver + Cleaver + kindlegem or cleaver + 2 cloth armor. If you get Cleaver & 2 longs swords cleaver actually does 55 damage more. I think if you just rush Trinity + Steraks then trinity better, but like, I dont think you can build Warrior + Trinity + Steraks and not die immediately. Some of the triforce budget comes from attack speed and movement speed, which are good stats when Q takes several attacks to proc. That damage also doesn't take into account the extra second or so it takes to do the full combo with cleaver instead of triforce from the attack speed difference. I would agree that triforce is hard to build out of the jungle unless you're fed or okay with being useless for a while. The difference in attack speed is real small. Its just 2 attack cool downs, and your already have +40% attack speed from E. You also get the move-speed from Black Cleaver. Difference of 1.363 attacks per second and 1.129 attacks per second. The difference is 1.54s for the auto attack portions vs 1.72s for the auto attack portion @ level 11. I think if you are fed enough for triforce to be better than Cleaver, you legit could build like Nashors tooth + Deathcap and it be K. http://na.op.gg/champion/xinzhao/statistics/jungleThing is, literally everyone is building trinity and not BC. -You're assuming you can get 4 autos in but you're not assuming you can get the second trinity proc. -You're ignoring the 8% movement speed on trinity which is great for closing the gap to get in range for E -You seem to be counting BC ms but not trinity ms which is better as it gives 60 after a kill. -You're ignoring ~1000 gold worth of attack speed for the reason that it was harder to calculate the difference. -You're assuming a xin zhao is focusing the same target as the ADC. Might sometimes work because of Xins R but if R isn't up focusing a tank while their team focuses you will always turn out badly in an even fight. Sometimes even with your R it won't work out so well. +You didn't calculate in the armour shred of BC and the extra hp it provides. However, most of xins damage comes in before the BC stacks are procced fully. And we expect sheen provides much more dps than that over a 6-8s fight. So basically your argument is that getting a pickaxe+giants belt is essentially better than a trinity force. Have you tried playing Trinity xin vs BC xin to check your findings? I've always found trinity to feel far superior damage wise even if it's more expensive. You said the difference in attack speed is small but the 40% attack speed is worth 2x as much as the 15 AD which you meticulously calculated out. (1000 gold AS vs 525 gold AD) Also sheen gets much better with levels/steraks as pointed out by others. Looking at xin's League wiki he has 3.1 AD ratio from 3x Q + passive + W + R + E. 4 Autos = 4.0 AD ratio. Total 7.1 AD ratio. Napkinning it level 11's Xin damgage WITHOUT BC is 1100 - 7.1x40 = 800 damage. Trinity ~ 1200. ~1400 with 2 procs. (Assuming here BC armpen == 40% AS where AS is probably better) Trinity 1 proc: 50% increase BC without armpen: 37.5.% increase Trinity 2 proc: 75% increase. So if you get 2 trinity procs trinity is approximately 2x better than BC in terms of improving your damage output. Which is why it probably feels like it's 2x better. For the record, I spend all day farting around with spreadsheets, the calc doesn't take long. I also just find it kind of interesting in a problem solving kind of way. + Show Spoiler +-You're assuming you can get 4 autos in but you're not assuming you can get the second trinity proc. How exactly are you playing Xin so that you are getting 2 sheen procs in a single round of spells? Have you played him before? All his CD's are higher than 6s with 40% CDR and hitting all your autos from Q. The only way you get 2 sheen procs in is if you are flanking in an odd man skirmish and engaging from behind with W-Q and holding E for a flash/escape, in which case it doesn't really matter what items you have; just kind of a win more excercise at that point. + Show Spoiler +-You're ignoring the 8% movement speed on trinity which is great for closing the gap to get in range for E Its 5% MS. On Xin w/ t2 boots this is the difference between 370 base MS and 388 MS; we're talking an extra 5s to move a teemo length... Considering Xin has a 900 range 50% slow for 1.5s on his W, its kind of negligible if you can hit your W, because you have like 3 teemos in which you gain ground in that 1.5s. Your E has a 600 range, for the record; in combination with your W, basically if they can hit you, you can E to them even if you dont have T2 boots. + Show Spoiler +-You seem to be counting BC ms but not trinity ms which is better as it gives 60 after a kill. BC and Trinity force literally have an identical rage passive. They both give 60 after a kill or an assist. + Show Spoiler +-You're ignoring ~1000 gold worth of attack speed for the reason that it was harder to calculate the difference. I'm not ignoring it. It is just relatively negligible because Xin's base AS is very low and his Q is also an AS reset. Its a difference of 0.25s to complete the combo; like its to the point where terrain and kiting in most fights will make it identical; you will get 4 autos because you have the dash, phase rush, ult zone, and the slows.... but you likely wont get more than that off. You also will never be standing still autoing something unless it is diving your carry or something... in which case the armor shred will out-preform the sheen anyway. My point is more that 1000 gold worth of attack speed is kind of a poor investment on Xin because he is melee and has an auto reset + Show Spoiler +-You're assuming a xin zhao is focusing the same target as the ADC. Might sometimes work because of Xins R but if R isn't up focusing a tank while their team focuses you will always turn out badly in an even fight. Sometimes even with your R it won't work out so well. No I'm not, I'm just saying that BC gives potentially more team damage and nearly similar solo damage, but you're also tankier. + Show Spoiler +Have you tried playing Trinity xin vs BC xin to check your findings? I've always found trinity to feel far superior damage wise even if it's more expensive. Yeah, I actually find them to be relatively similiar. I dunno, if you manage to 1v1 a squishy with trinity it feels fucking great, but I dont really see that a lot in my games. Must be a play-style thing, or perhaps you're significantly better than me at finding squishies alone. In any case, Xin is my highest winrate jungler, and I've been building BC almost exclusively for about 2 patches now. Idk, lategame xin with trinity force feels fucking awful; like you can be fed as balls and then the top laner you camped all game who has 3k less gold than you just kills you. Feels way better mid late having that BC... perhaps this is a symptom of me being lower ELO than you and games just lasting longer, idk. Even if damage is your big concern, because of Xin's reworked W just having more AD for the ARAM thing is good too. He isn't old Xin that is kinda all in or bust, he has a lot more options now a days, and while its not a huge factor or margin, BC is better for this scenario than TF bar none. Other big plus to BC that hasn't really been discussed is it is a much much nicer build path assuming you going like Warrior > Boots2 > Phage > other components. Kindlegem is much nicer to build than Sheen or Stinger; you're guaranteed to get your ruby crystal + pink ward whereas depending on your back timings for how things are going macro-wise getting stuck with a mana crystal or a dagger doesn't really get you any combat power. Much more consistent power curve this way. For giggles, lets assume you do get two sheen procs off in this skirmish: + Show Spoiler +Note: eHP calcs done using average between armor and Mres, and resists column assumes you bought 1 cloth and 1 null magic. Realistically, most games you are just scared of one combat threat, so you likely get another ~8% eHP going that route than shown against your primary damage threat, but for the sake of simplicity lets roll with it this way. The other thing that I look at, is pro's are building cleaver much more frequently than the general public is, and while a lot of pros build badly, I think there is some merit there because a lot of pros get told to build whatever is most optimal by a coach. http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/XinZhaoLast 40 games a pro has played in challenger+, 17 of them have built Trinity force (42.5%), 15 of them have built Cleaver (37.5%), and 8 of them built neither (20%). In comparison with general populous, on op.gg ~78% of Xin's are building Trinity Force, and ~3% are building Black Cleaver, with 19% building neither. In any event, pros build cleaver at a rate 10x higher than the general public, and trinity force at half the rate of the general public. Maybe this has to do with them having more faith their ADC can do damage too, idk. In the very least I think Cleaver is being hard slept on. I'll be honest I haven't played too much new Xin but I would assume post trinity you'd try to hit W after you hit the knockup which should be around the time sheen comes up again. I don't think ignoring attack speed while doing hard calcs for everything else is justified. Again you just make up some stuff like "0.25s isn't that much" when it could be the difference between getting the combo off and not getting it off, depending on getting CC'd or the enemy getting out of range etc. Attack speed is effective even when you are stutter stepping. You remember those turbo korean kogs? They were doing it because stutter stepping is effective regardless of AS. I could easily make the same argument you're making that you can definitely get 4 autos off with 40% more AS but you'll only get 3 and no knockup without it.. it's baseless. My bad about the BC, I just read the lolwiki's and the thought the tooltip was different. I was surprised too I thought they were the same and it turns out they are lol. Movement speed is relative. 20 more ms is a big deal if you are chasing down a squishy at the edge of your E range. If you've ever played any non hard gap closer champ with a speedup you should be able to appreciate that it's essential for closing a gap against any targets that try to run. The E just adds a 600 range buffer. As for the pro stats, I don't think Xin would be too effective in pro play as you'd just focus him down. As a result any builds that tend toward full tank will gain more popularity at higher levels. The damage items are great for earlier on but in teamfight phase normally you want to be tanky so having glass cannon xin mightn't be too effective. I may be wrong about this. At any rate the easiest way to play is to have melees going tank, I'm not certain it's always the best though. You're correct that BC gives more team stats and tankiness, if it was similar damage wise for teamfights and skirmishing it would definitely be superior but I'm not convinced at all. P.S I like the "Firepower" stat Damage*EHP as a metric for your overall dueling power. I remember theorycrafting around and it usually gives the general result of who wins a generic 1v1. Basically if you have 2x the HP you have 2x the Time to live and if you have 2x the DPS enemy has 1/2 the TTL so it should work out. Damage + EHP is misleading because high EHP+low dmg or high dmg + low EHP might seem effective but its a terrible indicator of dueling strength. I didn't check out your new numbers but I don't understand why the numbers for the original cases have changed.
Change in original numbers is giving a warrior baseline, adding you built that first.
Firepower is an interesting stat. I'll chuck that in when i get home.
At any rate, I'd agree that you're right about attack speed. Just hard to really quantify it outside of game for a melee... it might not do anything for you in some fights and in others it might win you the fight.
Perhaps the way you to go would be to select any arbitrary auto uptime and just run 2 or 3 CD cycles to see difference in DPS. At any rate i have no real trouble getting 4 autos off on Xin... perhaps I'm under valuing AS on him because most melee champs frankly just won't get that many but i can't recall the last time I didn't get a Q knock up in a team fight. I reckon TF would pull pretty far ahead of BC in damage inbetween combos... certainly is probably much stronger for dueling.
|
Thinking about it.. Warriors+full tank sounds like a better build why even bother with CDR now that they it's not broken on Xin anymore with a 3 second E? I used to be a cinder/trinity man but not sure now
|
Vi w change did not make the patch thank god
|
Xin W is really strong for those random objective standoff scenarios. I think capping CDR is really good on him.
Emax vs Qmax I think depends on game. Q way stronger in fights, E better at farming by a good margin. By the time you have W maxed you usually have a good idea of which be better in the particular game.
I don't think the difference between the two is very large though tbh. I think a lot of people just max E because that's what they did before they changed his AS buff on E to be less linear. When rework first came out it was like base 20 with 10% per level or something like that.
My preference is Qmax, that's why those damage calcs have Qmax. Ha ha.
I also don't really think you need anything after warrior to kill people, which is why i go warrior then either tank or BC if I'm fed. I'm usually fed because you just win every 2v2.
I also think warrior>BC>tank gets you a good power curve and is a decent transition that leaves you pretty rankly at 30 minutes and let's you kinda just hit their tank and counter engage his team while he has no armor and you invulnerable unless their carries want to get in melee range but you too tacky to die to frontline.
Xin a pretty flexible champ now a days compared to the old days. He used to be hard enrage or bust, but he's a real flexible champ now imo.
|
Thoughts after a couple games just now: -W is really short CD actually. 2.8s after Q is counted at max. Easily enough to be spamming sheen. -W is clunky as hell to use as you lose distance if you don't use it during a knockup and easy to dodge if you try to use it as a ranged spell because you can't move during it. -Xins squishy as hell 2 damage items relies on your ult being effective or you being really fed and probably both -Theres actually a decent argument for BC in that you can technically focus the front line thanks to your ultimate, and use your next E if they try to get inside your ult range. But in that scenario trinity is also quite good. -Maybe titanic hydra is better than both BC and trinity since you like the extra burst and effective AD, not sure how valuable CDR is.
|
|
On April 18 2018 03:48 Slusher wrote: Vi w change did not make the patch thank god The W change was combod with an increase in her base AS. The original iteration on the changes was bad because they way undercut the bonus AS, but later ones were okay.
|
On April 18 2018 05:15 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2018 03:48 Slusher wrote: Vi w change did not make the patch thank god The W change was combod with an increase in her base AS. The original iteration on the changes was bad because they way undercut the bonus AS, but later ones were okay.
The problem was it didn’t matter, Vi’s clear would be nerfed by any change to w rank 1 and that is a nerf. I don’t care if you give her 100% attack speed on rank 5 it doesn’t effect her damage to champions late game and she is still required to max q to not be a melee minion even with the very welcome Cooldown buffs.
If you want to incentivize points in w without nerfing vi the rank 5 compensation needs to be the % damage not the attack speed
|
|
|
|
|