In its first big test, the NA LCS players association has failed to even register on the radar, as the furor over Cloud9’s treatment of Marcin “Selfie” Wolski rages on.
With the announcement of Academy team rosters coming thick and fast, and pretty much every starting spot in both Europe and North America locked down, a surprising free agency announcement came out as former Tempo Storm mid laner, Selfie, announced his free agency rather unfashionably late. It seemed almost comical for Selfie to announce his free agency only two weeks out from the start of the professional season, and many wondered what had gone wrong.
A few hours later Selfie expanded on his situation, revealing that due to contractual payment issues with the transfer of his contract from the failed NA LCS franchise, Phoenix1, to Cloud9, Selfie was unable to gain free agency from Cloud9 in time to realistically be signed by a team for the Spring split. It seemed as though Selfie had once again fallen into misfortune.
The Silent Issue: Dead contracts
After the announcement of the teams that had been accepted into the NA LCS franchising for 2018, fans were understandably focused on the loss of their favorite organizations. However, a silent issue was not being discussed. As players had been contracted to organizations that had their League of Legends branches essentially liquidated by Riot’s decision to deny their franchise applications, these players would have to have their contracts bought by teams that had been accepted into the LCS. This meant that a firesale of contracts was conducted, with the most publicised purchase of the contract rights to players being Team Liquid’s acquisition of a majority of the contracts previously under Immortals. While Liquid quickly decided which players they would keep and which players they would be selling contract rights, it could have been a potentially sticky situation where Liquid hoarded talent, potentially creating a bubble as teams overpaid for contract rights.
In Selfie’s situation, it seemed as though he was not afforded the same quick transition. After being acquired from Phoenix1, it seemed clear to many that he would take a spot on Cloud9’s academy team. However, he was a noticeable omission from Cloud9’s roster announcement, and many wondered what exactly was transpiring behind the scenes with the talented player.
Selfie reported that a day before Cloud9 announced their LCS and academy rosters, he was informed that he would not be offered a position on the academy roster and instead would be given the option to be a substitute for the academy roster. Selfie also relayed that he hadn’t been in North America since his time with Tempo Storm in July, meaning he was not even offered the chance to compete for the academy spot.
With a contract that ran until 2019, Selfie was faced with the prospect of not playing a single professional game for three splits. He declined the offer, however, due to the aforementioned pay issues, he was unable to secure a release from his contract. And while Cloud9 has yet to offer any reply to Selfie’s transcript of the events that led to his delayed free agency, another party that should have been involved in the issue remained silent as well.
Where’s Wally? Players’ Association Stays Silent
It has been seven months since Riot announced their plans for franchising in the NA LCS, and with it, the plan to enact a players’ association to represent the players in what was the biggest change in the history of North American LoL esports. There were, of course, eyebrows raised at the effectiveness of a players’ association which was linked to the publisher and producer of the game. However, most people decided to forgo these issues as the positives of a developed players’ association outweighed the negatives. A players’ union had often been raised, but until Riot stepped in to jumpstart the project, the talks had always failed to bring about any meaningful progress.
One month after the announcement of the players’ association and it looked like good progress had already been made. The players had voted on a head of the association, and all looked to be going swimmingly. The former counsel for the NBA players association, Hal Biagas seemed like the perfect person to lead the newly formed association.
Players declared they were confident that Biagas’ experience in player association would help demonstrate the importance of association to players who had previously displayed lackluster enthusiasm when it came to associations. However, six months on from Biagas’ appointment and almost no new developments have occurred. Players have reported that a few seminars have been organized by the association, with the main focus on their rights and how contract negotiations should be conducted but other than that, the association has been mostly silent.
Where to now?
For now, we wait for Cloud9’s response to Selfie’s claims, whether they even decide to respond that is. It seems unlikely that the Players’ Association can even do anything now as the damage has been done. What seems clear, however, is that with players signing longer contracts and their contracts holding real monetary value, teams could very easily keep players stuck in contracts with no plan to give them play time to show their value to other teams. Whether the players’ association takes note of this issue and works privately to ensure this issue doesn’t occur in the future is the big question.
For now, it looks like the players’ association has earned a fail in their first big test, what comes next could decide its effectiveness in maintaining a balance in the NA LCS, and the perception of association esports across the board.
Cloud9 has released an official statement on the issue which can be found here.
Nice write up, did you seriously pump it out in one day after the drama started brewing?
I think the thing to take away is Selfie decided he valued play time over being on a roster. I'm unsure how much he would be payed, but it probably was a decent amount, NA is swimming in money lol. Your article is spot on, by signing the contract he would have risked sitting on an academy team bench for a long time. If he believes he's good enough to be a starter for an LCS team, then signing was not in the interest of his future career. On the other hand, he might have been able to travel to NA, and shown his abilities in scrims and soloQ.
I really don't understand how the PA failed anybody here. Selfie obviously didn't know he was getting kicked until he got kicked, so he wouldn't have been in contact with the PA until then. And it's been less than 24hr since he got kicked, and by his own admission the team did nothing wrong. So what was the PA supposed to have done?
On January 05 2018 05:14 GrandInquisitor wrote: I really don't understand how the PA failed anybody here. Selfie obviously didn't know he was getting kicked until he got kicked, so he wouldn't have been in contact with the PA until then. And it's been less than 24hr since he got kicked, and by his own admission the team did nothing wrong. So what was the PA supposed to have done?
Actually he was kicked 3 weeks ago (17 December). He was just given free agency later on. And (according to him) he never came back to NA to try out for the academy spot. It was, "oh by the way, we got goldenglue for academy. You can be his sub for peanuts and in a 2 year contract. Sound good?" Again according to him. Had the PA stepped in would he not have gotten his release earlier perhaps?
On January 05 2018 05:14 GrandInquisitor wrote: I really don't understand how the PA failed anybody here. Selfie obviously didn't know he was getting kicked until he got kicked, so he wouldn't have been in contact with the PA until then. And it's been less than 24hr since he got kicked, and by his own admission the team did nothing wrong. So what was the PA supposed to have done?
Actually he was kicked 3 weeks ago (17 December). He was just given free agency later on. And (according to him) he never came back to NA to try out for the academy spot. It was, "oh by the way, we got goldenglue for academy. You can be his sub for peanuts and in a 2 year contract. Sound good?" Again according to him. Had the PA stepped in would he not have gotten his release earlier perhaps?
Indeed. Its overall odd that the PA was not significantly involved with the entirety of the so-called "firesale" of contracts.
while its understandable why it failed, I dont' think it could have been prevented easily. Things were expected to go smoothly so selfie didn't put any protections into place to ensure he wouldn't get screwed.
In hindsight everything looks much easier to prevent, but these situations are exactly the kind of... learning experience... that someone has to eat before the involved parties are prepared for the next round.
the hope is that the PA can prevent it from happening again. And i think they would've if they were reached out to.
On January 05 2018 05:14 GrandInquisitor wrote: I really don't understand how the PA failed anybody here. Selfie obviously didn't know he was getting kicked until he got kicked, so he wouldn't have been in contact with the PA until then. And it's been less than 24hr since he got kicked, and by his own admission the team did nothing wrong. So what was the PA supposed to have done?
Actually he was kicked 3 weeks ago (17 December). He was just given free agency later on. And (according to him) he never came back to NA to try out for the academy spot. It was, "oh by the way, we got goldenglue for academy. You can be his sub for peanuts and in a 2 year contract. Sound good?" Again according to him. Had the PA stepped in would he not have gotten his release earlier perhaps?
Oh I see. This wasn't clear at all from the article. Then, I guess, the question is, did Selfie ever ask the PA for help? Basically it just feels really odd to headline this situation as a failure of the PA, given that I would bet dollars to donuts that Selfie never got them involved. I totally forgot they even existed; I don't think a single pro player has even mentioned them since it got formed.
The more i read about this, the more i think its just shit happened, and selfie is also an idiot that doesn't know how to deal with these situations and should've tried soliciting advice. but whatever a FB post is the best PR right?
Even selfie himself says that the late announcement was because of problems with the P1>c9 contract buyout and salary payments. Unless c9 was purposely dragging thier feet on these or something, i don't see what the problem is. Why didn't he announce it earlier too? what's stopping him? why did he not just ask c9 if he could announce his impending free agency?
sure he can't say he's a free agent now, but I'm pretty damn sure he could've worked with c9 to say something like, c9 intends to release me, so I'm looking for a team.
It's not on c9 to advertise for selfie, sure owners like steve and regi helped thier players find new teams, but that's above and beyond the norm. It just seems like selfie has no clue how to look out for himself and would rather cry on FB than actually do something about it.
According to him (see 10:40 mark), there are rumors that the rate of attendance to the PA meetings is abysmal (< 20%)...
I also have some constructive criticism for your article:
Talk a bit more about the PA association, what are its mandate, etc. since it is still a new organization and people might not be familiar with it. For example, Travis talked about it to give more context to his video and showed this link to the LoL Esports article that talks about the PA's goals: http://www.lolesports.com/en_US/articles/evolution-of-the-na-lcs
You wrote that "Players have reported that a few seminars have been organized by the association, with the main focus on their rights and how contract negotiations should be conducted". Could you provide a source that backs this up (e.g. player tweet)? If not, it would at least be good to know where you got that info, even if it's just some rumor you heard through the grapevine. It's the first time I heard of the PA meetings and its content.
Overall, I think it was a good article that sparked discussion beyond this forum and it's exactly the sort of content I wanted out of LL for its "revival".
On a somewhat related note on Thoorins LCs preview show, Jensen said he personally requested Goldenglue for the Academy team. He said he thinks the Goldenglue scrim god meme is actually true and he thinks he gets the best practice by scrimming Goldenglue.
This statement clarified the nebulous spot of what Selfie meant with his salary issues.
Found it weird that only Selfie had issues with his contract when Wiggily (who was also bought from P1 at the same time as Selfie) got the starter spot on their Academy roster. I'm not sure why he would decline to negotiate a new contract with C9 provided all the NA money from franchising; maybe he thought he was worth a LCS starter spot right now? Now he has no real money since he lost his spot with C9 Academy, so his decision is questionable...
so basically, he didn't reach out to anyone to help manage the situation and he couldn't get what he wanted cause he's a dumbass.
This is exactly what the player association is supposed to be there for, to give advice on how to proceed. Not denying that it sounds like Selfie played it out poorly, but he's also quite young and probably has no idea what he's doing. I seriously wonder if he received advice from anyone, maybe even his parents, or just thought he could work it out himself.
It really sounds like he expected to be picked up by another LCS team, that's a really dumb gamble, sets him back even further in his career.
yeah, that's the problem. many of these guys don't think the PA is worth thier time. I beleive travis said that attendence for meeting was low? He also makes a poor FB post that fishes for sympathy and generates drama when there really is none.
its like they don't want to go out and get advice, even after getting burned multiple times.
I mean it sucks, but its like 99.99% his own making, so i can't even have sympathy for him at this point, I'm more just annoyed he can't get his shit together.
The resources for players wasn't great, and it was a common complaint, but when they DO get resouces, he just continues to shoot himself in the foot. Meanwhile the guys who actually call up the PA head are getting good advice and working out thier contracts properly.
Circling back, the PA is supposed to look out for the players, but if the player doesn't say anthing, and just makes a stupid FB post for sympathy, I dont' think its fair to blame the PA. From what travis has said and the actual esports lawyer working on contracts, the PA is doing work and helping.
This situation is basically a high school kid who hoped and waited for his crush would ask him/her to prom, but the crush asked someone else, and now the kid has no date. I would put 20% of the blame on C9 and 80% on Selfie here. There's 5 things that caused this situation:
1) Selfie's deal to get 2mo extra pay is a sound protection, but he didn't expect it to be triggered under such circumstances, I assume. Under ordinary circumstances, there's no reason for him to turn down that money, so I don't think he thought through the implications of taking the money here.
2) Selfie should have known he was joining a team with very limited play opportunities. Obviously he's not replacing Jensen. And obviously C9 already have an academy mid laner. He can't just be blind to the fact that they might want GG over him; not everyone drinks the LS Kool-Aid on how great Selfie is. (Apparently none of the teams in NA do.)
3) Selfie didn't want to be GG's backup on their academy team. I don't blame him, but it's not really the worst job in the world, and probably better than having no team at all.
4) Given all of that, Selfie cannot afford to just be sitting on his ass waiting for C9 to call. He had 100% of his eggs in the C9 academy basket when it should have been blatantly obvious that the combination of his contract + his special buyout situation + C9's mid laner situation + his desires had a high chance of clashing. Either he needs to be in contact with other teams, ready to go immediately, or he needs to give C9 an ultimatum so his rights are protected.
5) C9 could have told Selfie much earlier they were going with GoldenGlue and not Selfie. Maybe they didn't make the decision until December. Maybe they made it earlier and didn't tell Selfie because they hated him, forgot, or were inconsiderate of his needs. No one knows the real answer here. But once the situation happened, C9 did as much as they reasonably could under the circumstances short of just re-hiring
On a side note, the PA could have only intervened here on Selfie's side, i.e., telling him what he should have figured out for himself. The PA could not have gotten involved on C9's side, because even if C9 really did fuck over Selfie deliberately by waiting so long to go with GoldenGlue, they can always just say "No, we just needed that much time to decide between GG and Selfie", and the PA couldn't overrule that.
Good life lesson on writing articles, AdsMoFro: it's usually better to get some sources beyond an unconfirmed Reddit post before questioning the effectiveness of an organization like you've done here. This article isn't even a day old and it's already aged extremely poorly, alongside putting your credibility in an awkward spot.
Hey Jack if you're reading this which you're not because if you were you wouldn't be so mad for no reason I just want you to know that C9 is a garbage organisation and can you leave London already because you're an embarrassment?
I don't think anything negative about Cloud9 was said here, but I do think that reaching out to them as a courtesy would have been preferred. We'll make sure our writers are aware of this. How the community reacts to a player being in a bad spot, and who they blame, is not really something we control.
Our sites are an important part of our identity and I legitimately believe and know that we owe our community sites for what and where we are today. We are proud of the work our writers put out and have never dictated what our writers could or could not write about, but we do want them to be aware of sensitive issues and handle them appropriately by giving parties a chance for input.
As for TL.net we don't own the URL so we'll see. It's not really a major item for us and I may have given Steve the impression that this is further along than it really is.
On January 06 2018 12:39 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I don't think anything negative about Cloud9 was said here
Explicitly? I agree. However, the article exists on the basis that the Player's Association needed to be involved at all, which implicitly places Cloud9 in a negative light in regards to Selfie's situation. I'm not surprised that Jack is upset about this article being written without even attempting to get a statement from him or the team in general.
That being said, agree with the rest of your statement 100%.
I feel like this is newer territory for the community sites, which have previously been focused on interviews, game recaps, biographical pieces, and the like when it comes to featured articles written by volunteer staff. This article is entering the realm of journalism, to which it fell short of the necessary standard. Historically, the community sites have handled these kinds of news-worthy topics by simply being a repository for information and the OP places no opinion. The opinion always came from community members commenting on the threads (they don't represent the opinions of the site and aren't endorsed by way of being featured).
If the community writers are going to be contributing this kind of journalistic content, the bar needs to be raised -- especially if the piece is critical in nature like this one was.
On January 06 2018 12:39 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I don't think anything negative about Cloud9 was said here
Explicitly? I agree. However, the article exists on the basis that the Player's Association needed to be involved at all, which implicitly places Cloud9 in a negative light in regards to Selfie's situation. I'm not surprised that Jack is upset about this article being written without even attempting to get a statement from him or the team in general.
That being said, agree with the rest of your statement 100%.
I feel like this is newer territory for the community sites, which have previously been focused on interviews, game recaps, biographical pieces, and the like when it comes to featured articles written by volunteer staff. This article is entering the realm of journalism, to which it fell short of the necessary standard. Historically, the community sites have handled these kinds of news-worthy topics by simply being a repository for information and the OP places no opinion. The opinion always came from community members commenting on the threads (they don't represent the opinions of the site and aren't endorsed by way of being featured).
If the community writers are going to be contributing this kind of journalistic content, the bar needs to be raised -- especially if the piece is critical in nature like this one was.
Hey,
Thanks for the feedback. I will try to ensure my next article of this tone does reach out to those in question, even tangentially as such.
On the C9 being put in a negative light, I feel like most of the negative light is being shed on the players association but regardless I can understand your point.
Just a question. Should the Player's Association not be involved in dozens of players being transferred across teams due to franchising? Is it not something they should be a part of to ensure that players aren't locked into what could essentially be ghost contracts due to basically no fault of their own? As far as we can tell, over three weeks transpired between his contract being transferred to C9 and his offer to be the substitute for the academy roster being denied. By then, most teams would have had their eye on rosters or even signed contracts.
Now, here's the thing, I'm not saying C9 did anything wrong. This could just be an unfortunate situation where "shit happens" and Selfie has to wait out a split. I'm saying that the players association should be there to help these unfortunate situations from happening and as such have failed in their role which means that the tone of the article changes from silence to ineffectiveness but the tone stays relatively the same. Now whether I made that clear enough in the article is debatable. With this many people getting it wrong, I guess I didn't. I'll try and ensure my next pieces are more accurate in their message.
I'm not sure I follow with the idea that the PA being involved means that C9 has done something wrong, why is this the case?
Your ability to annoy Jack is honestly impressive, Ads. Even if you think this article is negative, what an overreaction holy... Imagine if this was a Reddit post or some other random news site nobody would even care.
On January 06 2018 15:43 Ansibled wrote: I'm not sure I follow with the idea that the PA being involved means that C9 has done something wrong, why is this the case?
Your ability to annoy Jack is honestly impressive, Ads. Even if you think this article is negative, what an overreaction holy... Imagine if this was a Reddit post or some other random news site nobody would even care.
On January 06 2018 12:39 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I don't think anything negative about Cloud9 was said here
Explicitly? I agree. However, the article exists on the basis that the Player's Association needed to be involved at all, which implicitly places Cloud9 in a negative light in regards to Selfie's situation. I'm not surprised that Jack is upset about this article being written without even attempting to get a statement from him or the team in general.
That being said, agree with the rest of your statement 100%.
I feel like this is newer territory for the community sites, which have previously been focused on interviews, game recaps, biographical pieces, and the like when it comes to featured articles written by volunteer staff. This article is entering the realm of journalism, to which it fell short of the necessary standard. Historically, the community sites have handled these kinds of news-worthy topics by simply being a repository for information and the OP places no opinion. The opinion always came from community members commenting on the threads (they don't represent the opinions of the site and aren't endorsed by way of being featured).
If the community writers are going to be contributing this kind of journalistic content, the bar needs to be raised -- especially if the piece is critical in nature like this one was.
Hey,
Thanks for the feedback. I will try to ensure my next article of this tone does reach out to those in question, even tangentially as such.
On the C9 being put in a negative light, I feel like most of the negative light is being shed on the players association but regardless I can understand your point.
Just a question. Should the Player's Association not be involved in dozens of players being transferred across teams due to franchising? Is it not something they should be a part of to ensure that players aren't locked into what could essentially be ghost contracts due to basically no fault of their own? As far as we can tell, over three weeks transpired between his contract being transferred to C9 and his offer to be the substitute for the academy roster being denied. By then, most teams would have had their eye on rosters or even signed contracts. Now, here's the thing, I'm not saying C9 did anything wrong. This could just be an unfortunate situation where "shit happens" and Selfie has to wait out a split. I'm saying that the players association should be there to help these unfortunate situations from happening and as such have failed in their role. Now whether I made that clear enough in the article is debatable. With this many people getting it wrong, I guess I didn't. I'll try and ensure my next pieces are more accurate in their message.
In short, no. The PA does not have the power to unilaterally decide to involve itself. It it not a union and the players did not join the union. Even then, a collective bargaining agreement of some sort would have to be signed for a union need to involve itself, and it would only do so if it was covered as being an item of interest in the agreement. i.e. if you were being payed less than union rates mandated, the union would get involved. If you think you deserved a raise above that, the union would not get involved.
"What these guys are talking about is not a union," said Gene Orza, retired chief operating officer of the Major League Baseball Players Association. "They're using the word 'association,' but they will not be like the baseball players' or the football players' union, because they're not going to be a union.
"To form a union, you need employees, with an employer, who band together for the purpose of bargaining with, and some would say against, the employer. And that's not what's being envisioned here."
"As long as they are taking Riot's money, under federal law they can't form a union," Greeley said. "So, for example, they can't collectively bargain or strike. But they can have a representative, [and] that representative is more than welcome to sit with us, and we will listen to those concerns and provide that representative with a vote as we start to work through governance issues.
So the association has no reason to intervene without selfie requesting help himself. There is no indication Selfie did this, so the responsibility and fault lies 100% on him and not what we think the player's association should be. The article was written with a heavily accusatory tone, one of "PA failed to protect" and not one of "players need more protections", so the lack of research done hurts it much more because of the strong and accusatory tone taken.
While i think jack's reaction is overblown as c9 wasn't directly pushed in the article, the entire article is of a particularly low bar in terms of the research done, and formulates opinion based on guesses as to how deals were made and the contracts functioned, or were supposed to function. I may be wrong, and you may have some insider or expert information, but it doesn't seem that way.
To add: the difference between clickbait and a proper opinion piece isn't necessarily the amount of information you have, but the tone, presentation, and focus - this article was more about trying to pitchfork the players association, and be relation, c9 and selfie. It heavily focusing on emotional responses (as evidenced by the section headings and the article title itself) as opposed to laying out facts and then providing context to help form an opinion.
i thought the article was perfectly fine, strange to see such a overreaction lol
It's not exactly click bait, it's just a bit sensational because it was written prior to a 'trustable' source post, aka C9. In fact if you read the article, you'll notice there are a lot of words and phrases that suggest uncertainty, because Ads was writing an article about something where little information had been released. It's exactly the type of content being churned out non stop in the League community, because there is a demand for quickly written (even a day or 2 of writing is quite short) recaps of possible rumours and current events. I think this is a good step forward for releasing content on LL, so long as we don't become tabloid trash.
The article is not dramatic and does not make stuff up, it simply includes (arguably not well based) theories about what transpired to Selfie, and the noticeable lack of the PA being involved. This isn't the first time player's have posted their opinions on reddit to garner support and create outrage, and it isn't the first time it has been struck down afterwards by team statements. Although I just saw the reddit title, which is pretty overdramatic, so I guess things can be improved.
Wow, Jack called Ads a monkey, that's just sad lol. That's a word I'd reserve for actual clickbait with wild statements, not a standard rumour mill article.
On January 06 2018 15:43 Ansibled wrote: I'm not sure I follow with the idea that the PA being involved means that C9 has done something wrong, why is this the case?
Your ability to annoy Jack is honestly impressive, Ads. Even if you think this article is negative, what an overreaction holy... Imagine if this was a Reddit post or some other random news site nobody would even care.
On January 06 2018 19:48 Sent. wrote: Looks like team owners are just as prone to overreacting as reddit users. Poor Ads doesn't deserve this hate.
This is a well-known tactic by the LOL teams:
1) Person reports A. 2) Team denies A, calls reporter a liar. 3) Community credulously believes the team. 4a) A happens. No one apologizes. Team typically FURTHER states that it only became true because of the reporting. 4b) A does not happen. Reporter is forever stigmatized, even if he had a double sourced story that was very cautiously written such as, "this is probably going to happen".
On January 06 2018 19:48 Sent. wrote: Looks like team owners are just as prone to overreacting as reddit users. Poor Ads doesn't deserve this hate.
This is a well-known tactic by the LOL teams:
1) Person reports A. 2) Team denies A, calls reporter a liar. 3) Community credulously believes the team. 4a) A happens. No one apologizes. Team typically FURTHER states that it only became true because of the reporting. 4b) A does not happen. Reporter is forever stigmatized, even if he had a double sourced story that was very cautiously written such as, "this is probably going to happen".
This happens with all reporters tho. You either gotta have enough credibility to stand on your own after 4a/4b happens, or you gotta refrain from doing anything that is perceived as attacking the big bois.
This sorta happens all the time in regular sports, or even outside of sports when reporters decide to tackle big companies or politicians.
On January 06 2018 19:48 Sent. wrote: Looks like team owners are just as prone to overreacting as reddit users. Poor Ads doesn't deserve this hate.
This is a well-known tactic by the LOL teams:
1) Person reports A. 2) Team denies A, calls reporter a liar. 3) Community credulously believes the team. 4a) A happens. No one apologizes. Team typically FURTHER states that it only became true because of the reporting. 4b) A does not happen. Reporter is forever stigmatized, even if he had a double sourced story that was very cautiously written such as, "this is probably going to happen".
This happens with all reporters tho. You either gotta have enough credibility to stand on your own after 4a/4b happens, or you gotta refrain from doing anything that is perceived as attacking the big bois.
This sorta happens all the time in regular sports, or even outside of sports when reporters decide to tackle big companies or politicians.
From my experience fans in pro sports believe the worst about orgs basically as a default. Sometimes media orgs get bad reputations like the enquirer or are biased like Jay Mariotti and get banned from a locker room, but fans rarely just blindly accept team statements.
I think there's plenty of examples in the domestic abuse stories about athletes. Or the teams protecting coaches who were molesting players. Fans were and still are quick to venerate their chosen ones. Some of the small time guys got buried. It's only the other big fish of reporting who stood a chance.
and before anyone thinks I'm hating, I think jack is definitely overreacting. I just also think ads left himself way too open with the tone and content of the article.
It's pretty sad that we have to defend Ads from the tweets of a team owner. I don't understand why he didn't just contact TL quietly, sounds like an impulsive reaction on his part. The same result would've been achieved.
Well that would imply that he is a professional, which given how many people in the esports industry get their job is very unlikely. I still find it funny how Naz and the starcraft side of Liquid is more professional than most League orgs combined.
On January 08 2018 17:52 DarkCore wrote: It's pretty sad that we have to defend Ads from the tweets of a team owner. I don't understand why he didn't just contact TL quietly, sounds like an impulsive reaction on his part. The same result would've been achieved.
not like the guy mad he wasnt contacted about publically stated nonsense would ever get the idea to not contact anyone before publically stating nonsense
On January 08 2018 17:52 DarkCore wrote: It's pretty sad that we have to defend Ads from the tweets of a team owner. I don't understand why he didn't just contact TL quietly, sounds like an impulsive reaction on his part. The same result would've been achieved.
not like the guy mad he wasnt contacted about publically stated nonsense would ever get the idea to not contact anyone before publically stating nonsense
that would just be hypocritical
Isn't this exactly backwards? He got shit on publicly, so it's natural that he would respond publicly. Why would we expect him to defend himself in private against extremely public and unflattering allegations? It's rather rich to be now talking about professionalism and the proper way to do things after we fucked up first.
He's fighting a reputational battle here. The more publicly and loudly he expresses his view, the less likely it is that 6 months from now people are like "oh yeah didn't C9 fuck over Selfie that one time".
If I understand it correctly Ads published an article one or two days before C9 released a statement on the same issue. After the c9 statement apparently a lot of concerns raised in the article seem unfounded.
Except maybe for not posting a correction, how exactly is Ads in the wrong here? Are there any claims made which were known to be false at the time of writing?
On January 09 2018 07:08 Yorbon wrote: If I understand it correctly Ads published an article one or two days before C9 released a statement on the same issue. After the c9 statement apparently a lot of concerns raised in the article seem unfounded.
Except maybe for not posting a correction, how exactly is Ads in the wrong here? Are there any claims made which were known to be false at the time of writing?
I feel like you answered your own question. If you post things that are later shown to be unfounded, that's about as good evidence as you can get that you were in the wrong. Maybe you can't be held criminally liable for libel without reckless disregard for truth (though some would say not contacting C9 for comment would count), but people are certainly entitled to be pissed at you.
Like if LS told me that you cheated on your wife, and without asking you for confirmation, I just go ahead and post on Facebook telling all our friends that you cheated on your wife, and you hadn't actually, wouldn't you be pissed at me? Would it really make things better if I was like "OK well I didn't KNOW it was false, I just didn't bother to check if it was false or not"?
And then when you got mad at me and defended yourself publicly, imagine that I had the gall to tell you "Pretty sad you didn't come talk to me privately about this. That would imply you were a professional. I still think it's funny how I"m so much more professional than you about this."
I feel like you answered your own question. If you post things that are later shown to be unfounded, that's about as good evidence as you can get that you were in the wrong. Maybe you can't be held criminally liable for libel without reckless disregard for truth (though some would say not contacting C9 for comment would count), but people are certainly entitled to be pissed at you.
You are taking this way too far, calling libel lol. The article wrote pretty clearly that most of it was speculation, and that's the nature of early reporting. Are you supposed to report on news only when all the facts have come to light? In terms of actually content quality, it's quite low, and a bit sensationalist, but no way as bad as actual tabloid trash. Libel is a pretty loose term, but in most cases you only really bring it up when the purpose of the text was to damage the party in question.
Holy shit that's a turd reaction from Jack. I thought the article was perhaps a bit unfair on the PA, but given the information available at the time there's nothing slanderous (let alone libellous) to C9 in the slightest. Always had a soft spot for C9 from the Season 3/4 days, so it's really disappointing to see Jack acting like such a clown about it.
Good to see Nazgul sticking up for Ads (and the broader community). I sincerely hope future content doesn't make any concessions to team owners in response to the absurd reaction to this article.
On January 06 2018 12:39 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I don't think anything negative about Cloud9 was said here
Explicitly? I agree. However, the article exists on the basis that the Player's Association needed to be involved at all, which implicitly places Cloud9 in a negative light in regards to Selfie's situation. I'm not surprised that Jack is upset about this article being written without even attempting to get a statement from him or the team in general.
That being said, agree with the rest of your statement 100%.
I feel like this is newer territory for the community sites, which have previously been focused on interviews, game recaps, biographical pieces, and the like when it comes to featured articles written by volunteer staff. This article is entering the realm of journalism, to which it fell short of the necessary standard. Historically, the community sites have handled these kinds of news-worthy topics by simply being a repository for information and the OP places no opinion. The opinion always came from community members commenting on the threads (they don't represent the opinions of the site and aren't endorsed by way of being featured).
If the community writers are going to be contributing this kind of journalistic content, the bar needs to be raised -- especially if the piece is critical in nature like this one was.
Hey,
Thanks for the feedback. I will try to ensure my next article of this tone does reach out to those in question, even tangentially as such.
On the C9 being put in a negative light, I feel like most of the negative light is being shed on the players association but regardless I can understand your point.
Just a question. Should the Player's Association not be involved in dozens of players being transferred across teams due to franchising? Is it not something they should be a part of to ensure that players aren't locked into what could essentially be ghost contracts due to basically no fault of their own? As far as we can tell, over three weeks transpired between his contract being transferred to C9 and his offer to be the substitute for the academy roster being denied. By then, most teams would have had their eye on rosters or even signed contracts.
Now, here's the thing, I'm not saying C9 did anything wrong. This could just be an unfortunate situation where "shit happens" and Selfie has to wait out a split. I'm saying that the players association should be there to help these unfortunate situations from happening and as such have failed in their role which means that the tone of the article changes from silence to ineffectiveness but the tone stays relatively the same. Now whether I made that clear enough in the article is debatable. With this many people getting it wrong, I guess I didn't. I'll try and ensure my next pieces are more accurate in their message.
Wew, I'm super late with a response. Sorry Ads.
To start, I think Kaneh's post earlier covers the part about the player's association involvement. It was Selfie's responsibility to request guidance if he felt he needed it. Unlike the player associations of traditional sports (which are unions), the NALCS PA is essentially an open resource for the players to help them make their own career decisions.
I think it's pretty clear now that Selfie's ability to make sound career decisions is... less than stellar.
As for this bit:
Now, here's the thing, I'm not saying C9 did anything wrong.
The entire article was written from the skewed perspective of Selfie's Reddit post. Even parts of the article like this:
He declined the offer, however, due to the aforementioned pay issues, he was unable to secure a release from his contract.
...ended up being extremely misleading, as Selfie could, in fact, have secured a release from his contract. He opted not to. Nevertheless, it was reported as a fact that he was stuck in the contract with no options. Bits like that are scattered across the article, which is what primarily casts C9 in a negative light (just as Selfie's Reddit post did).
The icing on the cake is then the declaration that the PA should have been involved, as if there was something that Selfie needed protection from (other than himself). The article was written under the assumption that the PA is a union (even though it's not), and unions only need to intervene when members are being mistreated.
The great irony is that a PA representative could have been involved, if only Selfie had requested it. That is, again, Selfie's own failure.
Nevertheless, all of this could have been avoided entirely with only a request for comment by C9. Jack's frustration on the matter is a result of the Liquid brand holding more weight than the average Joe's speculation blog. You claim innocence when it comes to explicitly saying the words "C9 did something wrong", but the sentiment is threaded throughout the article. Just read the subtitle:
In its first big test, the NA LCS players association has failed to even register on the radar, as the furor over Cloud9’s treatment of Marcin “Selfie” Wolski rages on.
Bold emphasis mine. It doesn't get much more bandwagon than that short of an explicit condemnation. Why was this a big test for the association? The very same sentence specifies: C9's treatment of Selfie. Oh, and the community is outraged about it -- but no, the article doesn't imply C9 did anything wrong, not at all.
I feel like a few mental hoops had to be jumped through to make the case that the article attempted to be neutral to C9. You can't be critical of the PA for failing to act on something C9 did, but then also claim that what C9 did was perfectly fine. What point is there to being critical of the PA then? Exactly what should they have been expected to do for Selfie, especially given the full facts that came out with C9's statement (which again, a failure to even request comment from the org)? What exactly was the purpose of this article?
The article only holds relevance under the presumption that C9 was in the wrong over Selfie's treatment, which is exactly why it has aged poorly.
On January 09 2018 07:08 Yorbon wrote: If I understand it correctly Ads published an article one or two days before C9 released a statement on the same issue. After the c9 statement apparently a lot of concerns raised in the article seem unfounded.
Except maybe for not posting a correction, how exactly is Ads in the wrong here? Are there any claims made which were known to be false at the time of writing?
In the wrong in three ways:
1. Taking a Reddit self post at face value 2. Making assumptions regarding the effectiveness of the NA LCS player's association based on said Reddit post 3. Failing to even attempt at getting a response from C9 before publishing
On January 08 2018 19:51 Fildun wrote: Well that would imply that he is a professional, which given how many people in the esports industry get their job is very unlikely. I still find it funny how Naz and the starcraft side of Liquid is more professional than most League orgs combined.
Why is it funny? Naz was doing BW and managing before most people posting here were even born.
In fact, there are a number of us with wives and kids now so a lot of experience goes a long way.
On January 08 2018 19:51 Fildun wrote: Well that would imply that he is a professional, which given how many people in the esports industry get their job is very unlikely. I still find it funny how Naz and the starcraft side of Liquid is more professional than most League orgs combined.
Why is it funny? Naz was doing BW and managing before most people posting here were even born.
In fact, there are a number of us with wives and kids now so a lot of experience goes a long way.
Probably because its funny (insane) that people give $20 million investments to guys who make Trump look like a responsible twitterer.
On January 08 2018 19:51 Fildun wrote: Well that would imply that he is a professional, which given how many people in the esports industry get their job is very unlikely. I still find it funny how Naz and the starcraft side of Liquid is more professional than most League orgs combined.
Why is it funny? Naz was doing BW and managing before most people posting here were even born.
In fact, there are a number of us with wives and kids now so a lot of experience goes a long way.
Probably because its funny (insane) that people give $20 million investments to guys who make Trump look like a responsible twitterer.
There wasn't anything Jack tweeted that wasn't justified. While this article was written in the same way -- and with the same standards -- that all previous TL community features were subject to, it's precisely because e-sports is now an industry pulling $20 million investments that this standard now sits well below what should be acceptable. Jack absolutely needed to publicly defend his org's reputation and discourage inaccurate, sub-par content from a trusted source like TL.
Either TL, as an active e-sports organization, needs to better scrutinize what goes into a featured piece (proper journalism) or it needs to distance itself from community contributions (properly separate TL from the community sites). Naz and Steve have indicated they're intending to do the latter, but it's 100% on TL for not keeping up with industry expectations on this front.
The Liquid brand holds a lot of weight these days and just as Jack couldn't determine the difference between the org and the community, neither can the average Joe who reads this article and thinks it's sanctioned by the org (which is, ultimately, what justifies Jack's tweets).