Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
Is there a xhamp now that is though? It seems more like they need to tweak the runes. I think it does make sense to sort them out before changing things that may not need it once the other is sorted.
On November 21 2017 03:44 VayneAuthority wrote: dont worry, they took care of those shyvanas that were ruining everyones games
What's wrong with Shyvana? I haven't played much on preseason but I watch streams nightly and I actually haven't seen a Shyvana yet.
Been seeing a ton of Jungle Trist tho... I blame Ansi.
yea that was sarcasm, you can pretty much assume at this point any post I make is negative towards riot lol she had like a 3% pick rate and that was their big nerf of the patch, really makes you wonder what they get paid to do for 2 weeks
On November 21 2017 03:44 VayneAuthority wrote: dont worry, they took care of those shyvanas that were ruining everyones games
What's wrong with Shyvana? I haven't played much on preseason but I watch streams nightly and I actually haven't seen a Shyvana yet.
Been seeing a ton of Jungle Trist tho... I blame Ansi.
yea that was sarcasm, you can pretty much assume at this point any post I make is negative towards riot lol she had like a 3% pick rate and that was their big nerf of the patch, really makes you wonder what they get paid to do for 2 weeks
Ah, so she got nerfs, for who know why. Got it. I just put the thread up and didn't have a chance to read it yet.
Jinx chompers have become the equivalent of Veigar E, interesting change.
Uh, Orrn damage buffs? Did he really need those?
What's wrong with Shyvana? I haven't played much on preseason but I watch streams nightly and I actually haven't seen a Shyvana yet.
I have seen jungle Shyv absolutely dumpster games on KR and high Challenger streams. She has a very strong mid game, basically tower dives are super easy and she deals a lot of damage, but falls off late. But imo based on those streams, Kindred is a much bigger problem, she can fall behind but there comes a point where she will become a DPS burst ranged assassin who can also tower dive.
She was considered by many the best jungler on the last patch. Really strong early 1v1 and 2v2 with reduced mr. Also really good for abusing the catch up exp nerf and press the attck is pretty good on her
Yeah Shyvana was def. super strong on the last patch on multiple keystones. She felt ridiculously good and if anything it's a bit puzzling that they only touched her with -3AD.
I assume the rest of the champs need to wait until the Keystone nerfs come through to get a more accurate sense of where they are.
Champs higher then her that need obvious nerfs (do not need more time to see unless you're an ape)
#17 maokai #16 katarina ( absolutely insane on this patch for solo q) #14 sona ( got nerfed) #8 xin zhao (the actual best jungler on the patch for solo q) #4 MF (hits too hard with all the new poke masteries, early game is too oppressive) #3 ezreal ( needed bugfix)
I won't add taric #5 because I feel its a product of the heavy AD meta but he is really good.
Now sure maybe shyvana needed a nerf, but if they sat there for 2 weeks and said oh -3 ad and literally couldn't be bothered to fix any of these clear outliers they shouldnt even have bothered.
Win rates aren't always clear indicators of balance. Remember old LB? She was sitting on like a 49% across all leagues except D1, still got nerfed. And Shyv is the perfect example of that, there is nothing inherently broken in her kit, it's just that top players are able to eek out he power. Personally, I would be up for Shyv being back in the meta, the minor nerf suggests Riot has an agenda and Shyv isn't on it.
Shyv jungle in pro play is fun (her initiation combos with other wombos is just so fun, much cooler than Jarvan), but I get why Riot would not like it to be in soloQ she is the kind of pick that can be relevant while being non-interactive, and then splitpush, which they typically don't like.
Champs higher then her that need obvious nerfs (do not need more time to see unless you're an ape)
#17 maokai #16 katarina ( absolutely insane on this patch for solo q) #14 sona ( got nerfed) #8 xin zhao (the actual best jungler on the patch for solo q) #4 MF (hits too hard with all the new poke masteries, early game is too oppressive) #3 ezreal ( needed bugfix)
I won't add taric #5 because I feel its a product of the heavy AD meta but he is really good.
Now sure maybe shyvana needed a nerf, but if they sat there for 2 weeks and said oh -3 ad and literally couldn't be bothered to fix any of these clear outliers they shouldnt even have bothered.
Also I'm pretty sure the balance team doesn't not exclusively look at diamond.
4th at plat 7th at gold 3rd at silver 16th bronze
Which makes her 5th overall and clear highest winrate jungler. Which I get isn't everything but you sure used the numbers that fit your narrative the best. And even then, 17th out of 138 is pretty high. Feels like you are digging for something to complain about.
So that you think there are are things that needed it more is a fine opinion but I don't think rito was wrong to nerf her, especially when they did it so lightly.
In addition to the above, note that she shot up in winrate despite a simultaneous increase in play rate, suggesting that she is actually even stronger than her winrate suggests.
Moreover, Shyvana is almost completely keystone-agnostic. PTA, Lethal Tempo, Dark Harvest, Glacial Augment, Fleet Footwork, etc. are all performing extremely well on her. That suggests that you need to nerf her and not any of her keystones. Whereas if you nerf Miss Fortune, you're gonna hit her twice because her strength is almost 100% from Aery.
Don't think I've seen it mentioned, but I like the predator buff. I had been using it pre buff and having good luck with it. I'd been running it on Jungle Cho to surprising success.
Basicly once you have boots and level 6, you can pop predator turn on E and just run at people with the massive extra move speed. Apply E to slow, then hit Q when they are slowed and easy to hit, then W while they are knocked up and R when they are silenced. If they dash away from the initial run, you can usually just catch up since predator makes you so fast.
It's pretty good when your coolddowns are up, and this is a buff to cooldowns so I'm happy.
On November 21 2017 22:25 General_Winter wrote: Don't think I've seen it mentioned, but I like the predator buff. I had been using it pre buff and having good luck with it. I'd been running it on Jungle Cho to surprising success.
Basicly once you have boots and level 6, you can pop predator turn on E and just run at people with the massive extra move speed. Apply E to slow, then hit Q when they are slowed and easy to hit, then W while they are knocked up and R when they are silenced. If they dash away from the initial run, you can usually just catch up since predator makes you so fast.
It's pretty good when your coolddowns are up, and this is a buff to cooldowns so I'm happy.
I don't really know what to make of Predator. I would have thought it'd be an incredible enchant on anyone that builds Righteous Glory, but it seems to be the lowest win rate keystone on just about everybody. Hopefully this cooldown buff makes it viable.
It's trickier to use than say Electrocute or Aery. Those two you just play exactly the same but now have more power. Guess that's the same for stuff like PtA. I wouldn't be surprised if it was viable already but just that it's baseline "not amazing" situation is so much worse than the other easier to use keystones.
Riot has said before that people don't use item actives nearly as much as they should. This gives you an item active. If you take predator and don't use the active your keystone does stone nothing.
Yeah but Righteous Glory is just as "tricky" or hard to remember to use, and it's disgustingly good on Darius. Yet Predator is by far the worst keystone on him, worse than even Press the Attack or Fleet of Foot. https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Darius/
I think it's a lot harder to remember to use boots active or just an active you didn't specifically purchase. I've been trying out kindred a lot lately(they are a lot of fun) and almost always forget to mark target i'm heading to kill even when it's super obvious I'll get the kill. It could be predator is a bit like that. It's a bit more confusing and less straight forward than "just attack like you always do but you'll be stronger" so people shy away from it then if people do try it they don't really use it optimally. It's also about familiarity. Righteous glory has been around for quite awhile now so people just gotten more used to actually using it.
righteous glory is barely picked and just because BC has the lowest winrate out of all the items there doesnt mean its bad on darius lol
the winrates there seem meaningless
also predator is still pretty different from righteous glory
you use predator mostly for roaming while righteous glory can be used in fights/chasing down someone which is a lot more important. RG gives more movement speed and an aoe slow with no channel time which is way more important again.
On November 22 2017 03:43 dsyxelic wrote: why are you using those stats
righteous glory is barely picked and just because BC has the lowest winrate out of all the items there doesnt mean its bad on darius lol
the winrates there seem meaningless
also predator is still pretty different from righteous glory
you use predator mostly for roaming while righteous glory can be used in fights/chasing down someone which is a lot more important. RG gives more movement speed and an aoe slow with no channel time which is way more important again.
BC has the "lowest" because it's built so frequently that it necessarily normalizes to the mean Darius winrate, which is even lower. It's still a good item because it's ~+2% on a 88% built item.
By contrast, Predator is rarely picked, but even then is far, far below the standard Darius winrate, about equivalent to rushing Thornmail in lane on Darius. Which, sure, obviously it's not as good as the OP Grasp right now, but given how much value Darius gets out of RG you'd think it wouldn't be literally the absolute worst keystone on Darius.
RG/Predator are in fact different, but honestly, the difference is pretty minimal on Darius. There's not going to be a lot of teamfights where Darius is like "oh I better save Righteous Glory for later".
On November 22 2017 03:43 dsyxelic wrote: why are you using those stats
righteous glory is barely picked and just because BC has the lowest winrate out of all the items there doesnt mean its bad on darius lol
the winrates there seem meaningless
also predator is still pretty different from righteous glory
you use predator mostly for roaming while righteous glory can be used in fights/chasing down someone which is a lot more important. RG gives more movement speed and an aoe slow with no channel time which is way more important again.
BC has the "lowest" because it's built so frequently that it necessarily normalizes to the mean Darius winrate, which is even lower. It's still a good item because it's ~+2% on a 88% built item.
By contrast, Predator is rarely picked, but even then is far, far below the standard Darius winrate, about equivalent to rushing Thornmail in lane on Darius. Which, sure, obviously it's not as good as the OP Grasp right now, but given how much value Darius gets out of RG you'd think it wouldn't be literally the absolute worst keystone on Darius.
RG/Predator are in fact different, but honestly, the difference is pretty minimal on Darius. There's not going to be a lot of teamfights where Darius is like "oh I better save Righteous Glory for later".
what do you mean by your last part?
why would he be saving righteous glory?
my point is that righteous glory
1) can be used in lane far more effectively than predator can to chase down/slow the enemy laner. can in some scenarios be used defensively to instantly use the slow when trying to run away 2) roaming isnt very important on darius so predator loses value there and RG is not typically used for roaming
those are 2 big advantages / key differences righteous glory has from predator so it shouldnt be a surprise that predator is not good on darius if righteous glory is good on him
If you take any damage during predator ramp up you don't get the ability and lose the whole cool down. Laners probably shouldn't be taking it getting actors or minion hit shuts it down. You need to be standing alone with no one near you. It looks like it was made for the jungle.
The other thing about predator is that it has a 15 second duration after the 3 second channel. So the most effective use of it involves looking ahead 12-18 seconds into the game, which is not easy. The 3 second channel also makes it much harder to use in a countergank context or any other time where you're forced to be reactive. Generally speaking, every other keystone is more useful reactively.
Zoe in action, its a bit disturbing but its also pretty nice
Zoe just doesn't seem like a very fun champion to play against when she gets all those free abilities and items. Like yesterday I watched an Ekko on stream get pushed out of lane because she got gunblade active so early in the game, and then proceeded to die to Redemption plus Comet proc (granted he could've dodged, but honestly who expects the surprise Redemption), it was just absurd. The items she can pick up are almost all incredibly powerful, and honestly right now because of her scaling she seems like a dope mid laner
Zoe in action, its a bit disturbing but its also pretty nice
Zoe just doesn't seem like a very fun champion to play against when she gets all those free abilities and items. Like yesterday I watched an Ekko on stream get pushed out of lane because she got gunblade active so early in the game, and then proceeded to die to Redemption plus Comet proc (granted he could've dodged, but honestly who expects the surprise Redemption), it was just absurd. The items she can pick up are almost all incredibly powerful, and honestly right now because of her scaling she seems like a dope mid laner
Long story short, she looks kind of busted to me as well, I would assume that she is gonna eat the nerf bat at least two times before they tame her
another certainlyT disaster, takes 2 problematic competitive champs in AP nid and leblanc, combines them and adds a hard CC so you cant miss the nuke, good stuff. I don't see how this kit can ever exist in a healthy state, either the Q does enough damage to be viable or its weak enough where shes pushed out
I dunno. She seems like a weaker version of old LB but with the trolly W instead of super ezmode burst and mobility. The randomness of W from minions is honestly the only issue I have with her atm, that being said I think it's way too hard to estimate her power since her kit is so complex both playing her and playing against her is something completely new.
I was always under the impression that Riot was trying to eliminate randomness in the game, and make it more predictable. But elemental dragons and now this champ have made me think otherwise.
Really don't like the RNG of her w because there's no real counterplay to it, which is indicator of poor balancing. If Zoe gets Ardent active, how do you beat that? Ghostblade? Free damage. Solari? Ez team fight.
I think that's a slight overstatement, but I agree with the sentiment. Picking up what the other team uses is ok because you can play around that. But the random drops are a problem. It is a bad trend when you look at it with the klepto drops including the skill potion which is busted.
Yeah i dont think rng is as bad as people like to say. If it was everyone would be playing and watching 7 card stud instead of Texas holdem.
Like the dragons are not bad it makes tge game slighty more dynamic when the different drops have different value. I like how you know 5 mins ahead what is coming.
From a pyscological perspective it might allow those (which is a large %) who need to blaim someone or something when the games not going well. Might be anice change to read "fuckin rng" instead of "fuckin support/jungler"
On November 23 2017 02:38 Alaric wrote: She also did something like 25-30% of Riven's health with her q, not even buffed by ult, and without much items. What the hell.
It's also her main form of damage, if she doesn't hit it she does very little damage. Exactly like old Nidalee, who was removed for being such a headache to play against. Can't wait to see Faker destroying people with her skillshots.
On November 23 2017 02:38 Alaric wrote: She also did something like 25-30% of Riven's health with her q, not even buffed by ult, and without much items. What the hell.
It's also her main form of damage, if she doesn't hit it she does very little damage. Exactly like old Nidalee, who was removed for being such a headache to play against. Can't wait to see Faker destroying people with her skillshots.
Old nid didn't have a way to lock you in place. Spears being invisible are different from getting hit by a skillshot that tagged you from 2k away that you have to dodge.
A Q combo from Zoe does almost as much damage while she also has setup.
The reason people will rightfully QQ about Zoe, even if she isn't faceroll OP, is because if she was a champ from the original cast they would Eve/Olaf/etc her and slate her for a rework ala the many Ryze, Leblanc, and Eve reworks. They would say something about the play style being oppressive, her being too hard to hard engage on for such a good poke champ, too much RNG on her W, etc.
Its not that I even dislike her, its just that its rude.
can u ever get high BE champs from capsules? i mean champions that cost 4800 or 6300. i swear ive gotten like 5 annie shards and soraka shards or some other useless shit and nothing decent. i dont have a lot of champions so it shouldnt be this hard to get a shard thats worth playing and i dont already own...
On November 23 2017 20:22 evilfatsh1t wrote: can u ever get high BE champs from capsules? i mean champions that cost 4800 or 6300. i swear ive gotten like 5 annie shards and soraka shards or some other useless shit and nothing decent. i dont have a lot of champions so it shouldnt be this hard to get a shard thats worth playing and i dont already own...
You can but it's rare.
I don't mind riot releasing fun champs rather than well-balanced champs so don't really care too much about Zoe. Here I thought trynd had too much rng and then they made this shit.
On November 23 2017 20:22 evilfatsh1t wrote: can u ever get high BE champs from capsules? i mean champions that cost 4800 or 6300. i swear ive gotten like 5 annie shards and soraka shards or some other useless shit and nothing decent. i dont have a lot of champions so it shouldnt be this hard to get a shard thats worth playing and i dont already own...
On November 23 2017 17:11 DarkCore wrote: I'm not arguing that Zoe is balanced, someone pointed out she's like some hybrid LeBlanc/Nidalee champ, which is absolutely true.
In a sense she is less mobile than those 2 though because she can not really run away. I think she depends much more on having a team around. But her poke seems indeed strong.
Still on the fence whether or not she's overpowered, strong certainly but the 2k Q damage videos are from either a fed as hell or full build Zoe landing her full combo and lets be honest all burst mages do similar kind of damage if they land a full combo.
Glacial Argument on Gnar is pure fun and Karthus buff on PBE. What a day to be alive. :D
EDIT: Alright. After derping around with support Zoe a few games... Her base numbers are pretty silly.
Zoe is overtuned IMO, but not broken. The problem is that if she is not broken (like I think), then we deserve to get back some old iterations of champions that are fun. Particularly AP Nidalee and Shotgun Ryze.
imo all zoe needs is increased mana cost. her abilities are too spammable which allows her to make mistakes often, but other than that i feel shes fairly meh. if were bringing back old champions though 100% i want old lb back. i still hate the new lb so much
Honestly I enjoy new Ryze more than the old one, you have to think about using his abilities instead of just spamming them as quickly as possible, which was the best way in the past. Now there are times when holding onto E in a fight is worth it if you can only hit a tank and want to spread Flux onto more targets for a sweet AoE Q. Or deciding between high damage Q or longer W root.
On November 24 2017 16:00 cLutZ wrote: New Leblanc is not fun at all. I used to play only Her + Ryze + Ori mid, and Ryze + Olaf top. Now I play none of those aside from sometimes Ori mid.
Orianna is still good
I really liked old Leblanc though and the new one is awful to play.
I randomly found this rough explanation of how Kleptomancy works from a Rioter, thought you all might be interested.
This is the kind of design that'll likely change a lot still as we observe games on live.
Behind the scenes, what it currently does is it has three "master loot bags" that it fills your temporary loot bag with. The three master bags are:
Start of game Once you hit level 4 Once the game hits 20 minutes
(Please do note that we go from lvl 4 to 20 minutes for meme efficiency)
When the game starts, we conditionally copy the start loot bag over to your temporary loot bag. By conditionally I mean that we avoid obvious silliness like putting a mana potion into the temporary loot bag for a manaless champion.
Whenever Kleptomancy procs, we pull an item out of your current temporary loot bag. By "pull out" I mean we create it in your inventory and delete it from the bag. Once your bag hits a certain minimum level of items, it is replenished.
When replenishing your temporary loot bag, we first conditionally delete the remaining items in it. This makes it so loot isn't entirely predictable in terms of "I'll get 4 elixirs of iron before 20 minutes every game". I say conditionally because sometimes we leave an old item in your bag. For instance, we don't delete health pots from your bag if at the time of replenishing your bag, your health is low. There's a few more rules like that, and we can tweak those. This is to ensure a baseline efficiency of the rune--if you're constantly trading and low health, you should get more health pots.
After conditionally deleting your remainder, we copy over the CURRENTLY APPROPRIATE bag, again conditionally. So if at your first replenish you're level 4+ and it's not yet 20 minutes in the game, we copy over the lvl 4+ bag into your temporary bag (adding to all the items in it that weren't deleted). Again, we don't copy in mana for manaless champs or elixirs of skills if you're maxed on skill points.
And that's pretty much it! This is called a grab bag loot implementation, and I learned a lot about those from talking to Fearless and Greg (whose summoner name I don't know. Gregab maybe? That's what he uses for internal playtests). The rune belongs to Greg now for live balance and follow up work, and I'm very happy with where we landed on the grab bag system. My goals were "delight and surprise" first, but built on a foundation of "gameplay powerful in most situations via vision, sustain, and temporary power spikes". ItsLowBo did a lot of great work on this rune too, contributing a lot of the items that came in later, like the Potion of Rouge.
Honestly, I'll be happy even if this rune is rarely picked in competitive as long as it has its fans in solo queue.
I tried to read up about it awhile back and couldn't find many good answers. The gist of it seemed to be Q first is the safest option especially in lower mmrs, safest in terms of power level. R being the better option but having the more varied power across skill level and games. I think the evolutions are more tuned around choice these days than before though so there may not be a wrong answer. R-> duskblade is pretty hot. Q in messy games is crazy and it gives you breathing room to go into either E/W/R next depending on how things going. E/W seems to be go to second choice and more a case of how the game is panning out. Can you jump in blow someone up then jump out again? E second seems good. Is the game becoming hard for you to get in and team lacks secondary engage/poke ability? W second sounds good then.
I haven't tried him in awhile so this could be all bad info lol. I liked R first personally, felt you get the best trade off between utility and power. Did feel a bit bad dueling the jungler compared to Q first though. That feeling of bumping into isolated jungler and just beating the shit out of him with Q first is amazing.
also is it just me or do all keystones need to be nerfed in general (maybe other masteries too). some of them arent that strong but other than a couple of outliers, they should be brought down a peg as a group imo. i just had a game with lucian with pta and me and lux literally deleted a full hp ezreal at lvl 2 after lux got one q off. getting deleted like that with almost no counterplay (heal only within a 0.5 second timeframe when you dont expect to be getting blown up and would prefer to use arcane shift instead) at lvl 2 without jg gank is pretty stupid.
There are a lot of keystones that synergize very well with certain champs, and it's hard to argue if either the keystone or the champion is broken. Since the champions came before, I would argue the keystones are broken but it's unlikely Riot will rework the whole thing this season, they really wanted to get rid of runes.
i just had a game with lucian with pta and me and lux literally deleted a full hp ezreal at lvl 2 after lux got one q off
This is because Riot didn't think through the main reason of runes in the bot lane, which was early survivability. It's why Blitz was ez win in low MMR, people would run full AS/AD runes and get blown up. Now there's no defensive runes and only slight stat buffs to offset them, but most keystones that do damage are strong in the early game for this reason. Even more so because there's no real sustain anymore, so a bad trade can push you out of lane.
I think most of the defensive runes are decently balanced, although it's hard to say because you don't see their effects directly.
On November 26 2017 18:28 evilfatsh1t wrote: also is it just me or do all keystones need to be nerfed in general (maybe other masteries too). some of them arent that strong but other than a couple of outliers, they should be brought down a peg as a group imo. i just had a game with lucian with pta and me and lux literally deleted a full hp ezreal at lvl 2 after lux got one q off. getting deleted like that with almost no counterplay (heal only within a 0.5 second timeframe when you dont expect to be getting blown up and would prefer to use arcane shift instead) at lvl 2 without jg gank is pretty stupid.
About your example, would the situation have been different in season 7? Ez base stats are among the weakest in his class and lucian level 2 powerspike is a meme. Rather than PtA here, I think the early damage from poke supports is a bit too high. Aery+scorch+MR runes removal(+buffed spellthief?) is a lot of extra damage at early levels.
If all keystones are strong then I don't think it's a bad state for the game. Some still need some tweaks (I haven't seen phase rush used so far, both in my games or on streams), but so far the balance looked quite good in my games for preseason. Games are more snowbally than usual but I think it's a more a matter of people building more damage / trying new things / not caring as much than a balance issue.
On November 26 2017 18:28 evilfatsh1t wrote: also is it just me or do all keystones need to be nerfed in general (maybe other masteries too). some of them arent that strong but other than a couple of outliers, they should be brought down a peg as a group imo. i just had a game with lucian with pta and me and lux literally deleted a full hp ezreal at lvl 2 after lux got one q off. getting deleted like that with almost no counterplay (heal only within a 0.5 second timeframe when you dont expect to be getting blown up and would prefer to use arcane shift instead) at lvl 2 without jg gank is pretty stupid.
About your example, would the situation have been different in season 7? Ez base stats are among the weakest in his class and lucian level 2 powerspike is a meme. Rather than PtA here, I think the early damage from poke supports is a bit too high. Aery+scorch+MR runes removal(+buffed spellthief?) is a lot of extra damage at early levels.
If all keystones are strong then I don't think it's a bad state for the game. Some still need some tweaks (I haven't seen phase rush used so far, both in my games or on streams), but so far the balance looked quite good in my games for preseason. Games are more snowbally than usual but I think it's a more a matter of people building more damage / trying new things / not caring as much than a balance issue.
I'm pretty sure if a level 2 lucian + lux land all their stuff on a level 1 ezreal, that ezreal has always died.
lucian is a really funny case right now, he's one of, if not the best PTA abuser in the game but he's also really undertuned as a champion now.
but yea in high elo matches you either play ranged or ornn basically top lane, that pretty much describes the nature of the game atm. Ranged champs are getting so damage from keystones before melee can even touch them that they will have to completely rebalance the game for ranged vs melee.
Some one finally broke the hush on ranged champs with dark harvest, kindred being the best abuser of it obviously
Riot: Unbound Spellbook would be too OP if summoners didn't start on CD when you swapped to them even though the ability itself has a cd and it is a keystone
I think it's mainly a jungler snowballing keystone. You'll basically have it for every gank you do, and hopefully by the endgame when it's hard to go farm jungle or grab a cannon you'll have 150 stacks and can easily save any harvest buff for any fight. Combine that with the in-fight resets and you've got something which can be a lot better than electrocute... if you're not behind.
I just hate attack speed being tied to precision main tree.
A lot of champions feel very clunky without it. Like this thread once brought up that loads of people run AS runes on Mao, but that's not really an option anymore.
I just hate attack speed being tied to precision main tree.
A lot of champions feel very clunky without it. Like this thread once brought up that loads of people run AS runes on Mao, but that's not really an option anymore.
Dark Harvest looks strong on reset champs.
I still think that they need to make the stats you get pickable or at least tie them to your secondary rather than the primary.
It would open up more options than we have currently.
On November 27 2017 05:35 Numy wrote: I still don't really understand dark harvest. Do you just hope to fight while cannon dies and get a reset from someone dying in the fight?
I just hate attack speed being tied to precision main tree.
A lot of champions feel very clunky without it. Like this thread once brought up that loads of people run AS runes on Mao, but that's not really an option anymore.
Dark Harvest looks strong on reset champs.
I still think that they need to make the stats you get pickable or at least tie them to your secondary rather than the primary.
It would open up more options than we have currently.
It's weird how they did that with Inspiration, but not anything else.
I just hate attack speed being tied to precision main tree.
A lot of champions feel very clunky without it. Like this thread once brought up that loads of people run AS runes on Mao, but that's not really an option anymore.
Dark Harvest looks strong on reset champs.
I still think that they need to make the stats you get pickable or at least tie them to your secondary rather than the primary.
It would open up more options than we have currently.
It's weird how they did that with Inspiration, but not anything else.
The others each represent an archetype, so have stats for that archetype. Inspiration is meant to be random utility for anyone, so it takes it's bonuses from the archetype you spec into as secondary.
It kind of makes sense from a wishy washy creative design point of view, if not a practical one :p
On November 26 2017 18:28 evilfatsh1t wrote: also is it just me or do all keystones need to be nerfed in general (maybe other masteries too). some of them arent that strong but other than a couple of outliers, they should be brought down a peg as a group imo. i just had a game with lucian with pta and me and lux literally deleted a full hp ezreal at lvl 2 after lux got one q off. getting deleted like that with almost no counterplay (heal only within a 0.5 second timeframe when you dont expect to be getting blown up and would prefer to use arcane shift instead) at lvl 2 without jg gank is pretty stupid.
About your example, would the situation have been different in season 7? Ez base stats are among the weakest in his class and lucian level 2 powerspike is a meme. Rather than PtA here, I think the early damage from poke supports is a bit too high. Aery+scorch+MR runes removal(+buffed spellthief?) is a lot of extra damage at early levels.
If all keystones are strong then I don't think it's a bad state for the game. Some still need some tweaks (I haven't seen phase rush used so far, both in my games or on streams), but so far the balance looked quite good in my games for preseason. Games are more snowbally than usual but I think it's a more a matter of people building more damage / trying new things / not caring as much than a balance issue.
I'm pretty sure if a level 2 lucian + lux land all their stuff on a level 1 ezreal, that ezreal has always died.
my issue wasnt that ez died. my issue was that he got deleted as if old lb came and qqe him with void deathcap. im not even exaggerating. what would have happened in s7 is ez would arcane shift out, heal, kite back and probably burn a flash and then die, with lucian and lux using 2-3 spells. this time me and lux used no spells and i didnt even get to see if ez used heal because he just died that fast
You blew up Ezreal just by AAing him to death at lv 1? Or did Lucian also use his Q/E? I just find that hard to believe, the difference in dmg of Lv 1->2 for Lucian passive and the keystones alone isn't large enough to just magically be the difference between Ez dying and staying alive.
Why don't supports start unbound spellbook with smite and hardcore invade jungle lvl 1/2/3 while you get a safe adc to farm lane with/let it crash into turret?
On November 27 2017 23:36 Uldridge wrote: Why don't supports start unbound spellbook with smite and hardcore invade jungle lvl 1/2/3 while you get a safe adc to farm lane with/let it crash into turret?
If I ever see a solo adc at level 1/2 I'd all-in at the level 2 we're 100% sure to get first either getting the kill or burning all sums. The AD will if he play safe be zoned from the two first waves and since you're both underleveled this early now you'd be for the entire lane phase too unless your jungler will spend a long long time bot leaving the enemy jungler to pretty much do whatever he please.
Basically level 2 and 3 advantage are way too important in botlane.
I would argue most supports would want a "real" keystone both aerie and aftershock are quite strong, but I can see the spellbook thingy working like you say in a couple of supps that don't use those to full effect or pick a different one altogether, like idk, morgana or maybe nami? something like that is what I would try it on, maybe TK but then you lose the grasp and that's also good on him
well you literally are exchanging your adc getting shit on with their jungler getting screwed hard, I would say it is worth exploring at least (the hard invade approach with 2 smites, or the support being annoying, both)
The invade is not a 100% guarentee, if it doesn't work you're completely fucked in botlane. But I agree it is worth messing around with, it's preseason after all and my arguements are simply just from how I'd imagine it should turn out.
I mean its not unheard of, there's always been people that grinded their way up to diamond by doing something weird/unusual even if they suck at the game. Just by implementing and getting really good at a cheese there is enough easily tiltable people out there that you'll climb if it's truly effective.
Generally people respond very poorly to anything not cookie cutter and have a hard time adapting
On November 27 2017 23:36 Uldridge wrote: Why don't supports start unbound spellbook with smite and hardcore invade jungle lvl 1/2/3 while you get a safe adc to farm lane with/let it crash into turret?
I tried this as Blitzcrank. I finished 0/9/0 and immediately deleted the rune page after the game.
To be fair I was on my second bottle of Rochefort 10 and it was 2AM. But still, 0/9 would not recommend.
Idk, as an ADC main if I saw the smite I'd groan but not tilt, there's far worse out there. Like picking Lux into a kill lane and wondering why you keep getting engaged on...
It’s more like my champ literally does nothing if farm is not facilitated to me until 1 1/2-2 items. There isn’t even a point to group if I don’t have at least bf + zeal adding a ranged minion to thwart their inhib push is probably less valuable than me finishing i.e. so I at least do damage should the game extend.
It’s not really “I must carry “ as much as I don’t add anything by grouping yet.
Speaking of tilted ADCs have the jungle mains here been playing around bot this pre season? I liked spending a lot of time bot last season, but this pre season I've found myself mostly ganking for mid and top. I feel like with new runes you can get kills really fast in the 2v1. Anyone else noticing this or have I just had a bunch of weird games in a row?
On November 28 2017 04:35 iCanada wrote: Can confirm ADC players tilt the hardest compared to any other position. Aside from maybe riven / yasuo hard mains.
The average ADC player has a pretty legit "I must carry" complex, and the whole ardent censor meta really didn't help at all. Thanks riot.
This and something that I've brought some time ago is that since the role selection was introduced I have the feeling that bot lane (both support and adc ) is on average around 2-3 divisions (even up to a tier) at lower skill level than the rest. I am not talking about mechanics (although even there they lack imo) but for game knowledge, like their positioning, trading skills, map movement, map awareness, rotations, vision control is significantly lower than the rest of that particular elo
On November 28 2017 04:57 General_Winter wrote: Speaking of tilted ADCs have the jungle mains here been playing around bot this pre season? I liked spending a lot of time bot last season, but this pre season I've found myself mostly ganking for mid and top. I feel like with new runes you can get kills really fast in the 2v1. Anyone else noticing this or have I just had a bunch of weird games in a row?
well in soloq most junglers have always enjoyed ganking the solo lanes over bot
theres less coordination so its easier to coordinate between 3 soloq players than 2
On November 28 2017 04:35 iCanada wrote: Can confirm ADC players tilt the hardest compared to any other position. Aside from maybe riven / yasuo hard mains.
The average ADC player has a pretty legit "I must carry" complex, and the whole ardent censor meta really didn't help at all. Thanks riot.
This and something that I've brought some time ago is that since the role selection was introduced I have the feeling that bot lane (both support and adc ) is on average around 2-3 divisions (even up to a tier) at lower skill level than the rest. I am not talking about mechanics (although even there they lack imo) but for game knowledge, like their positioning, trading skills, map movement, map awareness, rotations, vision control is significantly lower than the rest of that particular elo
That's like a summary of me, although I think the list is a bit exaggerated. I do notice that playing top in normals, I don't actually place wards simply because I'm used to having a support ward, and the advantage of being ranged meaning you will always be further back in the lane.
Would not say bot sucks at trading, mechanics or positioning in respect to their elo though. And map awareness skills is something I personally find is atrocious in 90% of the player base, even in Diamond ppl don't seem to see the mini map or listen to pings.
Listening to pings is tough because some people don't do it enough and others ping all the time so you end up ignoring it then they rage the 1 out of 50 that mattered. I think most solo q pinging is so that you cover your ass and not have someone say, where was the ping, rather then their is actual danger
Real talk, if I don't have to go bot as a jungler, i generally just don't unless I'm big or it's free as hell. Scary in soloqueue.
Idk, it's a riskier play. Reward is higher I suppose, but it's easier to fuck up, and overly passive lanes not biting means the whole trip is just you feeding and losing your shit to the other jungler. Idk, you go mid and he doesn't bite you traded your hp for mid and still created pressure. You don't lose anything because now your mid had priority, other jungler can't aggress on you because theoretically your mid can collapse and you win the 2v2.
Failed ganks bot lose you more, and "unsuccessful" ganks generally get you less advantage as well. 1 of 4 summoners blown is much less appealing than 1 of 2.
I feel like if I am making good calls all game I have more success creating 4 or 5 smaller plays and compounding a lead than winning the game from a bigger more risky play. A bad bot play where a few die and you lose a tower straight up loses you the game. Can also straight up win you the game, but you have much less control; worst case 3v3 you have control over 1/6 = 16% of the play. 2v2 worst case you have control over 25%. Best case 3v2 / 2v1 you have 20%/33%. So if you go to a solo lane you have (25/16-1) × 100% = 56% more influence on the play. Without the other jungler it's 65% more influence. Especially if you're the highest Elo jungler, you're much better off going to a solo lane, because you're taking more influence into your own hands than your teammates hands. And logically if you're higher Elo than their jungler, their lane has higher Elo than yours. And bottom that's most of the play influence.
Also much more likely bottom has vision than top. You're more likely to lose pressure, or get stuffed by other jungler / them backing off.
Obviously, if bottom lane is something stupid volatile like Blitz Lucian vs Draven Leona or some shit then I'll be bottom because one of them going to feed and hopefully its not my team. Or ardent meta.... but otherwise fuck bottom.
On November 28 2017 04:35 iCanada wrote: Can confirm ADC players tilt the hardest compared to any other position. Aside from maybe riven / yasuo hard mains.
The average ADC player has a pretty legit "I must carry" complex, and the whole ardent censor meta really didn't help at all. Thanks riot.
This and something that I've brought some time ago is that since the role selection was introduced I have the feeling that bot lane (both support and adc ) is on average around 2-3 divisions (even up to a tier) at lower skill level than the rest. I am not talking about mechanics (although even there they lack imo) but for game knowledge, like their positioning, trading skills, map movement, map awareness, rotations, vision control is significantly lower than the rest of that particular elo
I dont think there's much of a skill difference between any of the roles (except Ardent Censer meta supports). I think it's more due to it being a duo lane so if there's any significant skill differential between the duos it'll be much more appearent. It's also much easier to play safe in a 1v1 lane since it's generally harder to solo dive.
The way I see it supports are macro players while ADCs are micro. This is two different playstyles/skillset that unless you're premade can be hard to combine and another aspect of a duo lane is that bad synergy between two players is something that cannot happen in a solo lane.
Everyone outside RTS players have horrible map awareness.
really? in my experience i've seen the least amount of brains from top laners in most of the elo's i've played in
because all you really need to climb to somewhere in diamond for toplane is to play some split pusher or strong laner and 1 trick it, its not very hard and its viable pretty much all the time.
for them, TP is not a spell used for global pressure, its just to come back to lane to feed quicker
The most probable answer to the original statement is just that it’s harder for the system to judge the appropriate elo for a dual lane main since they are matched with a random amount of lane synergy every game.
On November 28 2017 09:12 iCanada wrote: Real talk, if I don't have to go bot as a jungler, i generally just don't unless I'm big or it's free as hell. Scary in soloqueue.
Idk, it's a riskier play. Reward is higher I suppose, but it's easier to fuck up, and overly passive lanes not biting means the whole trip is just you feeding and losing your shit to the other jungler. Idk, you go mid and he doesn't bite you traded your hp for mid and still created pressure. You don't lose anything because now your mid had priority, other jungler can't aggress on you because theoretically your mid can collapse and you win the 2v2.
Failed ganks bot lose you more, and "unsuccessful" ganks generally get you less advantage as well. 1 of 4 summoners blown is much less appealing than 1 of 2.
I feel like if I am making good calls all game I have more success creating 4 or 5 smaller plays and compounding a lead than winning the game from a bigger more risky play. A bad bot play where a few die and you lose a tower straight up loses you the game. Can also straight up win you the game, but you have much less control; worst case 3v3 you have control over 1/6 = 16% of the play. 2v2 worst case you have control over 25%. Best case 3v2 / 2v1 you have 20%/33%. So if you go to a solo lane you have (25/16-1) × 100% = 56% more influence on the play. Without the other jungler it's 65% more influence. Especially if you're the highest Elo jungler, you're much better off going to a solo lane, because you're taking more influence into your own hands than your teammates hands. And logically if you're higher Elo than their jungler, their lane has higher Elo than yours. And bottom that's most of the play influence.
Also much more likely bottom has vision than top. You're more likely to lose pressure, or get stuffed by other jungler / them backing off.
Obviously, if bottom lane is something stupid volatile like Blitz Lucian vs Draven Leona or some shit then I'll be bottom because one of them going to feed and hopefully its not my team. Or ardent meta.... but otherwise fuck bottom.
You and I have totally different approaches. I didn't play ranked for most of last season and found myself needing to climb very quickly towards the end. I did that by picking jungle every game and camping the living shit out of bot lane. One gank top, maybe, at level 3, and after that babysitting my bot lane until they won the game. That strat led to a 65% WR on my main junglers and a 100% WR on Nunu.
The fact that bot lane ganks are so impactful is exactly why you need to be there. The risk/reward is far greater there than any other lane. And if you are confident in your abilities, then you want to be maximizing your rewards, and the way to do that is by hanging out in the lane where your presence has the greatest impact. Otherwise, you are intentionally lowering your impact on the game relative to the other jungler if he camps bot and you gank top.
if youre a nunu trying to gank for a janna/caitlyn lane thats just retarded
but if you're 'baby sitting' as in just making sure some important spots are warded so that lane doesnt get 4-5 manned without you knowing and being able to respond to it, thats more than enough in soloq.
generally on someone like nunu I tend to just run into the jungle and try to drop wards. I can get control of a certain quadrant and notify my teammates where the enemy jungler is, if I meet the jungler thats fine too since we now have information on where he is. prefer not to heavily gank on someone like him especially botlane since its super hard on anyone with decent escapes or disengage.
Exactly. The point isn't that you need to be chainganking for your Soraka. It's that your mere presence creates pressure, and choosing where on the map you spend your time is important even if you aren't ganking. Games are very rarely decided by skirmishes in the top river, but very often decided by a key bot lane fight. And when that game-deciding bot lane fight is starting, you want to be a part of it and not waiting in top river bush.
Obviously this is horribly biased advice because the end of last season was basically the strongest ADCs have ever been. But it is almost always easier to win with a fed ADC than a fed top.
yeah i basically agree but controlling topside is fine too since you can just ping to botlane where the enemy jg is
i have more faith in my botlane escaping a gank than my toplaner. but again, its dependent on several things such as champions and what side you're on. if you're on blue side top lane is safer if you're on red side botlane is safer from ganks so that should also be taken into account
anyone want to give me a run down of what champs are strong mid, top and jungle for someone who hasn't played since august and is to lazy to do research? just 2 or 3 for each role should do it
Yeah, if I sync my farming with bot warding well enough i can just ensure like 95% vision uptime on river and lane brushes.
Then every time you try and make a play i can make something bigger than a slight zoning happen, grow a big lead. I also can respond to any huge dives you attempt.
I'm confident in my abilities, less confident in my teammates abilities. Chances are one player on your team will be a monkey in pretty much every game. Lol. If that's s bot lane player that can be real risky. I think if you're confident in yourself you make plays you have more influence in the success of, not ones where you have less. I'm confident that I can make it impossible for other guy to make effective ganks bot with vision, and get more in some sort of cross map play.
You also have to consider how just not being in sight at all puts out a lot of map pressure too, but every time you walk over a ward you are releasing all of that in every area you are not. I think it was Scip that said like 99% of junglers would be higher ELO if they just never ganked till level 6 at the earliest. obviously less true last season. I don't necessarily follow that, but there is big merit there. Its nerve racking if you havn't seen the enemy jungler, its like 4 minutes, and you know he started on the other side of the map.
Part of this is my penchant to play uber fast farming immobile champs though. I generally just don't feel safe walking behind bot lane. Always vision. Risky. I also can generally get your whole top side jungle at worst during a single sussed out gank. That happens twice and I'm rich enough to prettymuch go wherever I want. Even bot lane. Lol.
But it sounds like we just have different styles though. I generally win by just always having more gold than other jungler. I definitely went to the Saintvicuous/Meteos school of jungling, sounds like you're more mainstream. For example I'd probably just never pick nunu. Lol. More likely to pick like Shyvana, Graves, Skarner, Udyr, Nidalee, Evelynn. Shit like that.
On November 28 2017 15:20 IamPryda wrote: anyone want to give me a run down of what champs are strong mid, top and jungle for someone who hasn't played since august and is to lazy to do research? just 2 or 3 for each role should do it
Ornn is probably the strongest toplaner at the moment. Zoe is very strong in capable hands with Taliyah by extension being very viable too as she's extremely good against her, Malzahar is pretty good too and borderline broken in his "good" match ups, Kassadin is as always in yoloQ a good pick too for mid. Junglers I'm not too sure about but from in-game experience I see a lot of high damage champs (Xin and J4 with multiple AD items) doing good with Rammus being the premiere tank jungler.
On November 28 2017 15:20 IamPryda wrote: anyone want to give me a run down of what champs are strong mid, top and jungle for someone who hasn't played since august and is to lazy to do research? just 2 or 3 for each role should do it
Top - Ornn, Mao, Teemo, Rumble, Jayce Mid- Malz, Thalia, Zilean , Xerath, Lux - poke champs Jungle - Xin and Jarvan are like a level above the rest, then Shyvana, Reksai, Kayn, Rammus, The Wolf
On November 28 2017 15:20 IamPryda wrote: anyone want to give me a run down of what champs are strong mid, top and jungle for someone who hasn't played since august and is to lazy to do research? just 2 or 3 for each role should do it
Top - Ornn, Mao, Teemo, Rumble, Jayce Mid- Malz, Thalia, Zilean , Xerath, Lux - poke champs Jungle - Xin and Jarvan are like a level above the rest, then Shyvana, Reksai, Kayn, Rammus, The Wolf
Hope this helps
I feel like Kassa, Kat, Ori, Syndra and GP deserves to be mentioned for mid as well as K6 and Rengar for jungle. A lot of viable top champs atm but Ornn and Mao are definitely the most consistent I feel.
Not mentioned, but Leona is ridiculously broken right now. Picked every game, wins like 55% or some shit.
Anyone try Zoe ADC? If she can lane 2v2 I could see that being legit. The mobility mixed with self peel is unreal. Range is a little low, and base stats kinda suck tho.
On November 29 2017 05:31 Ansibled wrote: I think Shyvana is still complete garbage and if they want that champion to ever be good again they need to revert sated devourer.
Last patch: 12th highest pick rate, 3rd highest win rate.
This patch: 4th highest pick rate, 7th highest win rate.
You may think she's a bad champion, but she's doing a good job of winning games regardless of who is playing her.
it's easy to see why, it's not because she's a good champ all of a sudden. They made jungling with a lot of champs so fucking painful and slow with attack speed being tied to precision and none of the options being good for junglers. Champions with naturally good clears have good winrates simply due to that fact, nothing else.
I tried a game of vi on a whim the other day and I legit died to jungle creeps for the first time in probably 3+ years. It felt like I was in a time chamber jungling in slow motion.
Of course it's going to take them months to even address issues like this then even longer to actually fix it so don't hold your breath. Instead they will continue to do idiotic things like nerf champions that aren't strong on a baseline to bandage what the jungle currently is, aftershock and electrocute paradise
The first clear being bad for a lot of champs has been a problem since S3, and it has always been a strain on the jungle pool. I still don't see why its even a good thing to have it that way.
On November 28 2017 15:20 IamPryda wrote: anyone want to give me a run down of what champs are strong mid, top and jungle for someone who hasn't played since august and is to lazy to do research? just 2 or 3 for each role should do it
Ornn is probably the strongest toplaner at the moment. Zoe is very strong in capable hands with Taliyah by extension being very viable too as she's extremely good against her, Malzahar is pretty good too and borderline broken in his "good" match ups, Kassadin is as always in yoloQ a good pick too for mid. Junglers I'm not too sure about but from in-game experience I see a lot of high damage champs (Xin and J4 with multiple AD items) doing good with Rammus being the premiere tank jungler.
Think I am gonna try out Zoe, Kassadin and Ekko have always been my favorite mids and seems like she has some similar play patterns. And def excited to see Rammy meta in jungle what about sej I feel like I remember seeing her being played at worlds
On November 28 2017 15:20 IamPryda wrote: anyone want to give me a run down of what champs are strong mid, top and jungle for someone who hasn't played since august and is to lazy to do research? just 2 or 3 for each role should do it
Ornn is probably the strongest toplaner at the moment. Zoe is very strong in capable hands with Taliyah by extension being very viable too as she's extremely good against her, Malzahar is pretty good too and borderline broken in his "good" match ups, Kassadin is as always in yoloQ a good pick too for mid. Junglers I'm not too sure about but from in-game experience I see a lot of high damage champs (Xin and J4 with multiple AD items) doing good with Rammus being the premiere tank jungler.
Think I am gonna try out Zoe, Kassadin and Ekko have always been my favorite mids and seems like she has some similar play patterns. And def excited to see Rammy meta in jungle what about sej I feel like I remember seeing her being played at worlds
She's seeing play at Kespa Cup, so she's still good. Really likes Aftershock.
On November 28 2017 15:20 IamPryda wrote: anyone want to give me a run down of what champs are strong mid, top and jungle for someone who hasn't played since august and is to lazy to do research? just 2 or 3 for each role should do it
Ornn is probably the strongest toplaner at the moment. Zoe is very strong in capable hands with Taliyah by extension being very viable too as she's extremely good against her, Malzahar is pretty good too and borderline broken in his "good" match ups, Kassadin is as always in yoloQ a good pick too for mid. Junglers I'm not too sure about but from in-game experience I see a lot of high damage champs (Xin and J4 with multiple AD items) doing good with Rammus being the premiere tank jungler.
Think I am gonna try out Zoe, Kassadin and Ekko have always been my favorite mids and seems like she has some similar play patterns. And def excited to see Rammy meta in jungle what about sej I feel like I remember seeing her being played at worlds
She feels much more like your playing old nidalee imo.
You have zero escapes, and other than your w, not really any actual escape/engage mobility plays.
Feels like your options are just hanging around poking til someone gets cc'd or you hit an e, then going for a high damage q. With a caveat for chaotic w outplays.
Compared to someone like kassadin or ekko it doesn't feel like it's ever that optimal to actually go in hard in teamfights.
I was pretty sure it worked the correct way, but didn't want to say anything cause I couldn't find the original source and wasn't in the mood to get shouted down.
Probably. IMO its a talent that doesn't understand League of Legends (at the moment). Auto attacks, and particularly attack speed, are only relevant to 1 position (unless you consider early jungle clear). Even ADCs rarely need attack speed 1.5s into the fight, what they need is better kiting. Like, if it was AS and MS after 1.5S, that would be extremely interesting.
I just generally think Riot overrates autos (aside from the ardent meta which was about non-ADC itemization). If Autos were as good as they think, we'd never have had a Jihn-Ashe-Varus AD meta and we would be stuck in a Jax-Irelia-Olaf dominated toplane.
I think most Junglers would take Lethal tempo if it worked on towers / monsters, even nerfedly. Most junglers are taking PTA right now, and honestly it sucks on most of them. But you kind of have to take Precision because you want the attack speed compared to the AD. PTA is pretty bad on most junglers, but it is way better than Lethal Tempo and Fleet Footwork, and having the AS 9 times out of 10 is just better than having a more useful keystone (Electrocute, Dark Harvest (not really sold on it, think it is under-tuned), Aerie) because it makes your early game just so much better.
Sooo much harder to proc Press The Attack than Electrocute. Its flat worse aside from maybe helping your ADC tank bust late game, but they likely are using PTA if they are a traditional ADC as is, and if not the tank wont bust regardless. LOL. I guess you can proc PTA more than once, but thats just not going to happen in any series fight.
I want Predator to be good too, but I don't know. I think the damage is too low. The ghost is nice I suppose. Idk, just seems thematically mediocre, like you can chase the guy down and start a fight, but then your keystone does less damage than his so you lose if all else is equal. I guess the thought is ganking, but effectively if means its not really a playmaking rune, it is like a follow up / counter ganking rune. Except for on Evelynn, I think its better than Electrocute if you would normally struggle to follow up the charm against their comp. Might be better in general on Eve, but I havn't played her enough.
As an aside, I don't understand why you can't tailor your stat bonus with your secondary path. Bleh. Feels like most champs have like one ideal path, with maybe one rune you change game dependently. The math nerd in me is sad, I lost a pretty big theory craft advantage over lots of players. I really enjoyed having runes for every different matchup in the book.
We worked out that aery (at least) was dealing magic damage when you were primarily physical, and physical damage when you were primarily ap based.
This was apparently a bug and got fixed last patch, so now it deals the same as your main damage type.
Aery is based off of what items you have. It only checks your main damage type when your item AD/AP are tied(probably the same way Camille's shield works).
Could Zoe be a support? I've had her in a game with me earlier which felt pretty decent and now I'm watching qtpie have her support. Looking at her kit again it does seem to work decently well in support. Her strongest ability is most likely her E while waveclear is a big issue for her. All of that is fine in support. Only issue I see with this is that Zyra most likely does the same stuff better than her? Her E range in the jungle is huuuuge though.
I've also given up on jungle I think. Went back to top/mid and destroyed people. Jungle is too hard and too much flame ;(
We worked out that aery (at least) was dealing magic damage when you were primarily physical, and physical damage when you were primarily ap based.
This was apparently a bug and got fixed last patch, so now it deals the same as your main damage type.
Aery is based off of what items you have. It only checks your main damage type when your item AD/AP are tied(probably the same way Camille's shield works).
That's what I meant by physical damage vs ap damage
On November 29 2017 23:48 Numy wrote: Could Zoe be a support? I've had her in a game with me earlier which felt pretty decent and now I'm watching qtpie have her support. Looking at her kit again it does seem to work decently well in support. Her strongest ability is most likely her E while waveclear is a big issue for her. All of that is fine in support. Only issue I see with this is that Zyra most likely does the same stuff better than her? Her E range in the jungle is huuuuge though.
I've also given up on jungle I think. Went back to top/mid and destroyed people. Jungle is too hard and too much flame ;(
Yesterday I got one shot by 0/8 Mid Zoe with lich bane and level 1 boots, while I was 8/2 pantheon with 2.5 items including EoN and Phage, I was actually at 4/5 health, not full, however, I would imagine that a champ with such ability will be useful as a support as well, some kind of damage support that makes more damage then the carries with fewer items, way fewer items
On November 29 2017 23:48 Numy wrote: Could Zoe be a support? I've had her in a game with me earlier which felt pretty decent and now I'm watching qtpie have her support. Looking at her kit again it does seem to work decently well in support. Her strongest ability is most likely her E while waveclear is a big issue for her. All of that is fine in support. Only issue I see with this is that Zyra most likely does the same stuff better than her? Her E range in the jungle is huuuuge though.
I've also given up on jungle I think. Went back to top/mid and destroyed people. Jungle is too hard and too much flame ;(
Yesterday I got one shot by 0/8 Mid Zoe with lich bane and level 1 boots, while I was 8/2 pantheon with 2.5 items including EoN and Phage, I was actually at 4/5 health, not full, however, I would imagine that a champ with such ability will be useful as a support as well, some kind of damage support that makes more damage then the carries with fewer items, way fewer items
Might as well play Zyra that does just as much or even more damage outside max Zoe combo, have better teamfighting and while shorter range more reliable and AoE CC. Come on guys, relax on the Zoe hype train...
On November 29 2017 23:48 Numy wrote: Could Zoe be a support? I've had her in a game with me earlier which felt pretty decent and now I'm watching qtpie have her support. Looking at her kit again it does seem to work decently well in support. Her strongest ability is most likely her E while waveclear is a big issue for her. All of that is fine in support. Only issue I see with this is that Zyra most likely does the same stuff better than her? Her E range in the jungle is huuuuge though.
I've also given up on jungle I think. Went back to top/mid and destroyed people. Jungle is too hard and too much flame ;(
Yesterday I got one shot by 0/8 Mid Zoe with lich bane and level 1 boots, while I was 8/2 pantheon with 2.5 items including EoN and Phage, I was actually at 4/5 health, not full, however, I would imagine that a champ with such ability will be useful as a support as well, some kind of damage support that makes more damage then the carries with fewer items, way fewer items
Might as well play Zyra that does just as much or even more damage outside max Zoe combo, have better teamfighting and while shorter range more reliable and AoE CC. Come on guys, relax on the Zoe hype train...
By any means I am not saying that Zoe is the best at what she does, but that she might be relevant and working for the ones who would prefer to play Zoe and not lets say Zyra
On November 29 2017 23:48 Numy wrote: Could Zoe be a support? I've had her in a game with me earlier which felt pretty decent and now I'm watching qtpie have her support. Looking at her kit again it does seem to work decently well in support. Her strongest ability is most likely her E while waveclear is a big issue for her. All of that is fine in support. Only issue I see with this is that Zyra most likely does the same stuff better than her? Her E range in the jungle is huuuuge though.
I've also given up on jungle I think. Went back to top/mid and destroyed people. Jungle is too hard and too much flame ;(
Yesterday I got one shot by 0/8 Mid Zoe with lich bane and level 1 boots, while I was 8/2 pantheon with 2.5 items including EoN and Phage, I was actually at 4/5 health, not full, however, I would imagine that a champ with such ability will be useful as a support as well, some kind of damage support that makes more damage then the carries with fewer items, way fewer items
Might as well play Zyra that does just as much or even more damage outside max Zoe combo, have better teamfighting and while shorter range more reliable and AoE CC. Come on guys, relax on the Zoe hype train...
Hype train? I'm not saying she's busted. Just wondering if that may be role she falls into after awhile.
Related. Looking at OP.gg there are 30 top laners with positive win rates, mid 20s jungle with positive win rates and high 20s mid lane with positive win rates.
For adc there are two positive champs and just barely a third if you count twitch. Basicly everyone's wins are coming from when Ez or MF isn't banned. Everyone's win rates are going to be inflated from when they get to pick those champs and everyone is going to look boosted when they are banned. That has got to be doing weird things to pairings and how the mmr algo tries to match bot laners.
On November 30 2017 05:14 General_Winter wrote: Related. Looking at OP.gg there are 30 top laners with positive win rates, mid 20s jungle with positive win rates and high 20s mid lane with positive win rates.
For adc there are two positive champs and just barely a third if you count twitch. Basicly everyone's wins are coming from when Ez or MF isn't banned. Everyone's win rates are going to be inflated from when they get to pick those champs and everyone is going to look boosted when they are banned. That has got to be doing weird things to pairings and how the mmr algo tries to match bot laners.
I mentioned the exact same thing in this or the previous patch thread, it seems a bit ridiculous that almost all ADC are sitting on a sub 50% win rate. I've tried out MF myself, completely forgot her AS without runes is trash so I couldn't cs, played like trash, didn't pull off a good ult once, landed like no Qs in lane, still completely destroyed the game and did most damage. I consider Ezreal a bit more skillful, but klepto is just crazy good on him, the Q buff is just icing on the cake.
The new rune system looks good on paper for DPS ADC, but in reality Aery/Comet/Klepto are just way too strong, to the point they're taking over a role they're not supposed to be core on. Even Lethality Varus is making a comeback because of it lol, I thought that cancer was gone for good.
On November 29 2017 23:48 Numy wrote: Could Zoe be a support? I've had her in a game with me earlier which felt pretty decent and now I'm watching qtpie have her support. Looking at her kit again it does seem to work decently well in support. Her strongest ability is most likely her E while waveclear is a big issue for her. All of that is fine in support. Only issue I see with this is that Zyra most likely does the same stuff better than her? Her E range in the jungle is huuuuge though.
I've also given up on jungle I think. Went back to top/mid and destroyed people. Jungle is too hard and too much flame ;(
think i mentioned it earlier on this thread or a previous one but yeah she works support. it was disgusting with jhin where a W or sleep can chain into each other and just 1 shot especially with the zoe passive + q with jhin 4th auto q. it's just gross.
but zoe itself is just so busted right now that its probably just good as a champ
On December 01 2017 10:04 Slusher wrote: I don’t know if the kit would be that bad if it took more than spec shoes to one shot
Yeah I also think numbers are a bit off and the rng with W drops from minions is too much. They should not drop really good stuff. She is not as op as some claim though, she also has clear weaknesses and win rate is still negative. Although I suspect it will rise soon with more experienced players. Also she still has a big bug apparently with range extension on Q via R not working properly if the target is sleeping and QQR is used.
On December 01 2017 11:54 Gahlo wrote: Why would QQR extend the range?
Well it does extend the range if R is cast quickly. Maybe it should never do it idk but it is still a bug if it works most of the time but in a few instances does not, which is apparently related to using E.
Thinking about it I am pretty sure this "late" extension is supposed to happen. The range of the spell not being fixed when fired but depending on your own movement is at the core of the special feel of this spell.
On December 01 2017 11:54 Gahlo wrote: Why would QQR extend the range?
Well it does extend the range if R is cast quickly. Maybe it should never do it idk but it is still a bug if it works most of the time but in a few instances does not, which is apparently related to using E.
Thinking about it I am pretty sure this "late" extension is supposed to happen. The range of the spell not being fixed when fired but depending on your own movement is at the core of the special feel of this spell.
I dunno. It's felt very "load the balista, move to aim it, let fly!" to me, which leads to a more QRQ play pattern. I think given the sheer lunacy of the damage it can do that being able to adjust after firing might be a bit much.
On December 01 2017 11:54 Gahlo wrote: Why would QQR extend the range?
Well it does extend the range if R is cast quickly. Maybe it should never do it idk but it is still a bug if it works most of the time but in a few instances does not, which is apparently related to using E.
Thinking about it I am pretty sure this "late" extension is supposed to happen. The range of the spell not being fixed when fired but depending on your own movement is at the core of the special feel of this spell.
I dunno. It's felt very "load the balista, move to aim it, let fly!" to me, which leads to a more QRQ play pattern. I think given the sheer lunacy of the damage it can do that being able to adjust after firing might be a bit much.
Then let it do less dmg, that is kinda irrelevant for the point. The extension with movement definitely adds an extra layer of skill and uniqueness.
The only issue I have with Zoe at the moment is the randomness of her W and the true damage on E. There's way too much variance on what you can get with spell thief and the bonus damage on E should just be magic it being true damage just feels like it's something they setup intentionally to change later so they could have her overtuned at release. :-/
On December 01 2017 10:03 Bladeorade wrote: Zoe seems really busted
why does Riot develop these ridiculous kits
certainlyT does it
It has got to be so hard to make new champs with 140 in the game. If its to standard you get the " this is basically champ x with a stun" or whatever. And if it is too out there we get these issues. And then you have to make the numbers work. I bet they feel like goldilocks trying to get it just right (but never able to for all the millions of players)
I was actually thinking tge easiest way would be to balance like a core set of champs for competitive, cycling a few in from time to time to make it interesting. Then making these "fun" crazy champs ok for solo que but not viable pro.
Because making 140 good.for both is probably impossible
Well they could just only make new champs if they come up with some novel idea. I wonder if they community will handle that though.
Zoe has some cool stuff but man they missed the mark with some of her abilities. If she was more of an actual trickster instead of being this nida type annoying bullshit it would have been so much better.
I don't know did they really need to make her W like that? Sure it's a novel idea but why is that a thing? I dislike it. Her R is very cool and the way her Q interacts with it is awesome. Why does this champion also need a hard CC and the ability for free summoners?
I feel like they were going for an on hit AP champion interlacing spells with autos and ended up with an AP Nuke champ. Whats the point of her passive if EQRQ 1 shots? It's like an old AP Nidalee with more burst, hard CC and Lux passive.
I would rather see a lower damage burst with higher potential output than nuke this and nuke that oh and here's a free summoner for no reason. I like the idea of her passive and R and Q combination but combined with hard CC and free summoners is just too much.
Her numbers will get nerfed to oblivion before the next real League competition and then we won't see her again until the rework.
I feel like I got some good ideas for actual new champions rito hire me
Shoutout to Liquid Zess for getting me my account back
Riot really messed up Zoe imo, I really can't believe they would slip up and create a champion like old Nidalee, who was just cancer to play against. Massive range, low-mid CD nuke poke is not healthy. And her stun is insanely good, it can be used to either blow you up or set you up for her team.
I would really like Zoe if they gutted her damage and turned her into a support. Her stun is good enough for that, and then she could fill an interesting poke support role.
Q definitely needs to be tuned more towards bonus ap, right now if someone has not purchased mr sorc shoes and lost chapter are enough to finish someone hit by your e.
It’s so overturned that lichbane on a character with built in empowered autos is a noob trap. Why buy an item that requires you to auto when ludens splash can put you over the 100-0 threshold much safer.
I honestly think she’s workable if you make q more bonus ap reliant and make teleportation immune to her w. She is the second coming of Nidalee for sure but no heal and no cat form make her way easier to deal with ppl are just blinded by the current e>q combo damage because it is stupid.
On December 03 2017 05:55 Sent. wrote: I can't buy mystery champion boxes anymore (the one that cost sth like 3850 and gives you a random champion). Is it a bug or a feature?
Riot didn't even let me buy Mystery Boxes because I own too many champs haha. Wish I could spend my blue essence on something, it's just piling up these days.
It’s so overturned that lichbane on a character with built in empowered autos is a noob trap. Why buy an item that requires you to auto when ludens splash can put you over the 100-0 threshold much safer.
Imo it's the extra CD that makes the item good on her, makes her abilities even more spammable.
On December 03 2017 06:59 DarkCore wrote: Riot didn't even let me buy Mystery Boxes because I own too many champs haha. Wish I could spend my blue essence on something, it's just piling up these days.
It’s so overturned that lichbane on a character with built in empowered autos is a noob trap. Why buy an item that requires you to auto when ludens splash can put you over the 100-0 threshold much safer.
Imo it's the extra CD that makes the item good on her, makes her abilities even more spammable.
When the BE store came out they made the mistake and didn't have that restriction. I bought 24 of them.
On December 03 2017 06:59 DarkCore wrote: Riot didn't even let me buy Mystery Boxes because I own too many champs haha. Wish I could spend my blue essence on something, it's just piling up these days.
It’s so overturned that lichbane on a character with built in empowered autos is a noob trap. Why buy an item that requires you to auto when ludens splash can put you over the 100-0 threshold much safer.
Imo it's the extra CD that makes the item good on her, makes her abilities even more spammable.
Isn't Morello much more efficient? It's cheaper, have more AP, more CDR and more mana.
I don't consider myself an expert, it was just an opinion. Most of my experience with Zoe has been having to deal with her past the laning phase, when she either blows me up as an ADC, or is impossible to lockdown as a top laner.
On December 04 2017 01:21 DarkCore wrote: I don't consider myself an expert, it was just an opinion. Most of my experience with Zoe has been having to deal with her past the laning phase, when she either blows me up as an ADC, or is impossible to lockdown as a top laner.
Why is she impossible to lock down? She has zero mobility. In my experience Zoes just get destroyed later on but I'm at weak shit elo so doubt that's good experience..
On December 04 2017 01:21 DarkCore wrote: I don't consider myself an expert, it was just an opinion. Most of my experience with Zoe has been having to deal with her past the laning phase, when she either blows me up as an ADC, or is impossible to lockdown as a top laner.
I dont really find her hard to lockdown, but then again I only play brainless toplaners like Ornn, Maokai or Nautilus.
On December 04 2017 01:21 DarkCore wrote: I don't consider myself an expert, it was just an opinion. Most of my experience with Zoe has been having to deal with her past the laning phase, when she either blows me up as an ADC, or is impossible to lockdown as a top laner.
Why is she impossible to lock down? She has zero mobility. In my experience Zoes just get destroyed later on but I'm at weak shit elo so doubt that's good experience..
The games I've played (which is few ~80% ban rate lol) she's been super hit or miss. I think she's sort of like Yasuo/Riven/Zed either the player is extremely good at the champion or just plain out suck and only play her because she's fun. At the moment it feels pretty hard to get a good feel of how strong she actually is thanks to the Yasuo-syndrome and how wonky she feels to play against.
On December 04 2017 01:21 DarkCore wrote: I don't consider myself an expert, it was just an opinion. Most of my experience with Zoe has been having to deal with her past the laning phase, when she either blows me up as an ADC, or is impossible to lockdown as a top laner.
Why is she impossible to lock down? She has zero mobility. In my experience Zoes just get destroyed later on but I'm at weak shit elo so doubt that's good experience..
Because her ult is short enough CD that she can play way back, and if you dive her she just tosses e at her feet and uses her w with its ridiculous speed boost to kite.
On December 04 2017 01:21 DarkCore wrote: I don't consider myself an expert, it was just an opinion. Most of my experience with Zoe has been having to deal with her past the laning phase, when she either blows me up as an ADC, or is impossible to lockdown as a top laner.
Why is she impossible to lock down? She has zero mobility. In my experience Zoes just get destroyed later on but I'm at weak shit elo so doubt that's good experience..
Because her ult is short enough CD that she can play way back, and if you dive her she just tosses e at her feet and uses her w with its ridiculous speed boost to kite.
On December 04 2017 01:21 DarkCore wrote: I don't consider myself an expert, it was just an opinion. Most of my experience with Zoe has been having to deal with her past the laning phase, when she either blows me up as an ADC, or is impossible to lockdown as a top laner.
Why is she impossible to lock down? She has zero mobility. In my experience Zoes just get destroyed later on but I'm at weak shit elo so doubt that's good experience..
Because her ult is short enough CD that she can play way back, and if you dive her she just tosses e at her feet and uses her w with its ridiculous speed boost to kite.
I remember when people here criticized me for criticizing the shyvana nerf heavily.
Champ is barely relevant, as I already predicted electrocute assassins own the jungle with minor aftershock play. The balance team is clueless, the faster you accept that the better.
I'm super confused why you say she's barely relevant when she's the most relevant she's been in quite some time? Fairly high play and winrate in Solo Q. Even saw some play in Kespa cup.
You are getting such a small sample size as well. Like some of those people are playing their pocket picks regardless of what is the "best" option. But I mean shyv even after the nerf is still on that list at any rate, and doing better here.
Their balance team has been out to lunch before but this seems like a poor example of that.
So I know most website like op.gg in addition to including raw winrates for champs include win rate for people with a bucnhbofngames, 40+ 50+ etc. but at least for op.gg although they show you per champion you can't see or sort all champions by win rates on experienced players. Anyone know a website that shows that?
On December 06 2017 01:16 General_Winter wrote: So I know most website like op.gg in addition to including raw winrates for champs include win rate for people with a bucnhbofngames, 40+ 50+ etc. but at least for op.gg although they show you per champion you can't see or sort all champions by win rates on experienced players. Anyone know a website that shows that?
On December 06 2017 01:16 General_Winter wrote: So I know most website like op.gg in addition to including raw winrates for champs include win rate for people with a bucnhbofngames, 40+ 50+ etc. but at least for op.gg although they show you per champion you can't see or sort all champions by win rates on experienced players. Anyone know a website that shows that?
On December 06 2017 01:16 General_Winter wrote: So I know most website like op.gg in addition to including raw winrates for champs include win rate for people with a bucnhbofngames, 40+ 50+ etc. but at least for op.gg although they show you per champion you can't see or sort all champions by win rates on experienced players. Anyone know a website that shows that?