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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
Non-League of Legends discussion should go in the LiquidLegends Lounge.
Certain topics are blacklisted from LoL General Discussion and they include:- "Elo hell"
- The Tribunal
- Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
Additionally, the TL LoL Ten Commandments are available for you to reference if you have any questions about this subforum.
Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions. Lastly, confine QQing and bragging to their respective threads.
There is no new champion this patch. Nidalee is getting a sexy update this patch but RIP solo jungle clear.
Patch 6.11: Live on June 1st, 2016
+ Show Spoiler [Previous GD Threads & Patch Notes] +
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who we should ban now? since all must bans received some kind of nerf treatment - Swain, Maokai, Lucian, Ekko, Ryze + few more
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I wonder if Blitzcrank will ever budge from his status as one of the statistically best bans in the game. As of last patch he's in the top 5 on bestbans.com for every elo.
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If you are a pro, Viktor.
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trinity sizeable buff for irelia/jax/udyr
pretty decent buff for jax too
at this point its staring to look like ms quints+zerkers is a better buy than swiftness, even counting the early game losses.
On June 02 2016 05:55 GrandInquisitor wrote: I wonder if Blitzcrank will ever budge from his status as one of the statistically best bans in the game. As of last patch he's in the top 5 on bestbans.com for every elo.
there was a time blitz was played by people who didn't want to support now its just people who like blitz which is bad because his hook is crazy as fuck
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I do think it's interesting that Riot often buffs Jax, when there are plenty of trash-tier champions that don't get buffs. I guess they really like his kit and hate whenever he starts getting weak (as opposed to say, Yorick). See also Corki.
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nobody likes yorick.
Corki gets buffed is played every game then gets nerfed rinse repeat
they buff jax every 6 month and nobody plays him anyway LOL
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On June 02 2016 05:56 GrandInquisitor wrote: I do think it's interesting that Riot often buffs Jax, when there are plenty of trash-tier champions that don't get buffs. I guess they really like his kit and hate whenever he starts getting weak (as opposed to say, Yorick). See also Corki. Him and Ahri are popular, sell skins, and Riot thinks they make esports entertaining.
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Jax probably will see some play at pro play as a top laner but probably as a red side pick. Ekko mid or AP Ekko top is going to wreck people harder with these changes due to the higher ap ratio on his ult damage and q.
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which one is red side and why does it really matter
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On June 02 2016 06:05 Slayer91 wrote: which one is red side and why does it really matter Red side starts at the top right and the reason why red side is because there plenty of bad match ups for jax in pro play even with these buffs so he will likely be a last pick champion in pro play.
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On June 02 2016 06:05 Slayer91 wrote: which one is red side and why does it really matter
I assume he thinks Jax has some bad matchups among T1/T2 champions.
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On June 02 2016 06:09 LightningStrike wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 06:05 Slayer91 wrote: which one is red side and why does it really matter Red side starts at the top right and the reason why red side is because there plenty of bad match ups for jax in pro play even with these buffs so he will likely be a last pick champion in pro play.
why is the top right side easier??? if anything its more annoying because you can get ganked from behind
or do you mean he gets last pick unless everyone picks top last this won't matter its not like the pro players are going to randomly pick something they never played before to try and get a 20 cs lead they can play like 4-5 champs well at any given game
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On June 02 2016 06:13 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 06:09 LightningStrike wrote:On June 02 2016 06:05 Slayer91 wrote: which one is red side and why does it really matter Red side starts at the top right and the reason why red side is because there plenty of bad match ups for jax in pro play even with these buffs so he will likely be a last pick champion in pro play. why is the top right side easier??? if anything its more annoying because you can get ganked from behind Because you can pick the match up as last pick as he gets countered hard by Ekko, Poppy, and Maokai because all three of them can trade effectively vs Jax. Yes you will be more vulnerable to a gank from the tribush but that why you should se if your jungler can come for a counter gank.
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do you want me to record videos playing against ekko poppy and maokai?
im not playing against the top brass but i'm sure whatever professional top laner can manage cleaner jax play as well
i mean stuff like vlad is much more annoying to deal with than tanks tanks are what jax gets better and better at fighting the more hp and sustain he gets
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On June 02 2016 06:16 Slayer91 wrote: do you want me to record videos playing against ekko poppy and maokai? Ya because I see little way for a jax can trade with those 3 champions who are being played in pro play right now. Even if with this nerf Maokai and Ekko will still be t1 top laners.
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stuff like pantheon, vlad and ryze are shit you don't want to play against those champions are about average anyway i'll see what enemies pick in sorro que tomorrow
jax has issues with kiting and harass he doesn't have issues with trading ekko could kind of do it but he got nerfed again. all 3 rely on autos once their burst is down and jax has a dodge for that.
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Teut, please give us more vids :3 I've wanted to be good at jax for a long time, but I always just suck dick at him. Usually end up going somewhat even/slightly ahead in lane phase and then I either splitpush and be useless or teamfight and be useless.
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I was about to say, Jax is a "run at them and bop em on the head" champion and that's right up Teut's alley.
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United States11390 Posts
On June 02 2016 05:48 M2 wrote: who we should ban now? since all must bans received some kind of nerf treatment - Swain, Maokai, Lucian, Ekko, Ryze + few more Lucian nerf is a placebo and doesn't do anything.
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On June 02 2016 06:29 Gahlo wrote: I was about to say, Jax is a "run at them and bop em on the head" champion and that's right up Teut's alley.
but with elegance and timing and hellish fury
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On June 02 2016 05:55 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 05:55 GrandInquisitor wrote: I wonder if Blitzcrank will ever budge from his status as one of the statistically best bans in the game. As of last patch he's in the top 5 on bestbans.com for every elo. there was a time blitz was played by people who didn't want to support now its just people who like blitz which is bad because his hook is crazy as fuck I know, right? I think if you had to make a list of the best abilities in the game, Blitz Q has got to be top 5 at least.
The way you can tell it's broken is that every single one of Blitzcrank's other abilities is utter trash on another champion.
Actually that's an interesting question. Who would want to swap out one of their Passive / W / E / R abilities for Blitzcrank's equivalent ability? Maybe Singed / Ezreal would want to swap Ws? I guess for E, it has to be a melee champion, since a lot of ADC would probably love a double damage AA reset that knocks up.
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blitzcrank passive is strong many champions could benefit. a few champions would like his W also (any adc with a bad w ashe or ez or varus), but it's not that strong on blitz himself lol.
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On June 02 2016 05:55 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 05:55 GrandInquisitor wrote: I wonder if Blitzcrank will ever budge from his status as one of the statistically best bans in the game. As of last patch he's in the top 5 on bestbans.com for every elo. there was a time blitz was played by people who didn't want to support now its just people who like blitz which is bad because his hook is crazy as fuck
People that don't want to play support anymore just don't play support.
lol
I would queue support all the time if I knew if I queued Jungle / Support that I could play like an 80/20 split of Jungle/Sup, but if I queued that I would only ever play support. As someone that has mained jungle for 6 seasons, I want to play jungle...
So now i play 50/50 jungle mid I guess.
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yep I thought the system of supporting 1 in every 5 games was good and healthy they need to adjust dynamic queue to allow you to set a preference like that (queue time versus secondary role amount)
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Nah, takes less lines of code to just force players into support if their queue time is too long.
Why give the player any choice in the matter.
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Wouldn't mind that either but I always just get top and long queue times if i queue jungle/top
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+ Show Spoiler +We are also now enabling Autofill in NA to address high MMR match times. Described from the article above: "To address position shortages, we’re adding an autofill mode that can trigger when queue times are too long. If players enter queue with excessive estimated wait times, the matchmaker will potentially assign them a role other than the two they selected." http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/GD/1du4BOW9-dynamic-queue-updates
Seriously though, if they just gave me a slider... That would be worth so much IMO.
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On June 02 2016 06:48 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 05:55 Slayer91 wrote:On June 02 2016 05:55 GrandInquisitor wrote: I wonder if Blitzcrank will ever budge from his status as one of the statistically best bans in the game. As of last patch he's in the top 5 on bestbans.com for every elo. there was a time blitz was played by people who didn't want to support now its just people who like blitz which is bad because his hook is crazy as fuck People that don't want to play support anymore just don't play support. lol I would queue support all the time if I knew if I queued Jungle / Support that I could play like an 80/20 split of Jungle/Sup, but if I queued that I would only ever play support. As someone that has mained jungle for 6 seasons, I want to play jungle... So now i play 50/50 jungle mid I guess. I queue as support/fill and from what I can gather from my played champions I have ~65% games as support... You guys are starting to make me think I should queue as x/support lol
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Maybe they changed the algorithm, but when it came out i went Jungle / Support and I legit got 10 straight games support.
Never tried it again.
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On June 02 2016 07:04 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 06:48 iCanada wrote:On June 02 2016 05:55 Slayer91 wrote:On June 02 2016 05:55 GrandInquisitor wrote: I wonder if Blitzcrank will ever budge from his status as one of the statistically best bans in the game. As of last patch he's in the top 5 on bestbans.com for every elo. there was a time blitz was played by people who didn't want to support now its just people who like blitz which is bad because his hook is crazy as fuck People that don't want to play support anymore just don't play support. lol I would queue support all the time if I knew if I queued Jungle / Support that I could play like an 80/20 split of Jungle/Sup, but if I queued that I would only ever play support. As someone that has mained jungle for 6 seasons, I want to play jungle... So now i play 50/50 jungle mid I guess. I queue as support/fill and from what I can gather from my played champions I have ~65% games as support... You guys are starting to make me think I should queue as x/support lol x/support is 80%+ support in my experience.
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In the update they said mid/support gives mid 16% of the time.
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ok so azir got gutted maybe with way weaker walling. What is this jax buff? In lane this basically means he will have some level of stacks always.I know they changed the ramping on it but this seems kinda crazy. Lucian q nerf will hurt his laning and ability to trade. ryze no longer has ult up permanently. Seeing has he will hit 40% cdr this is more now 30 second cd vs 18 which is not really that game changing.
Vel'koz looks op and i expect him to be see competitive play. If the R nerf to azir wasn't bad enough a velkoz counterpick should be too strong.
Wooo teemo buffs with the wits end :D
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i actually think this nerf changes nothing, 3 or 6s makes no difference he still has self peel,dash and the same stupid amount of dmg
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Going over the changes this patch.
TL;DR version: still ban Lucian, everything else is up to debate, Corki and Jax might show up in competitive play now.
Anivia: nerf probably only meant for low ELO players.
Azir: W no longer letting him damage turrets is huge, and his ult now having a flat timer of how long it stays up means he can't section off a corner of the map for an entire fight. He probably drops out of competitive play now, or at least falls down to below Viktor and probably Corki (assuming Corki goes mid with Ezreal bot for competitive).
Corki: Triforce changes along with his ult buff means he'll go back to being a flex pick in competitive.
Ekko: nerfs were a long time coming, this probably makes him drop entirely from competitive play outside of playing him as an AP assassin mid.
Illaoi: she still exists? Buffs are nice, might see more play now that she can just go BC into full tank and deal damage. Probably won't see competitive play as she shines brightest in 5v5s and most teams seem to be shirking away from such large-scale engagements in the early and mid game.
Jax: buff probably means he shows up in competitive play in 1-3-1 or 4-1 team comps, as he just grabs the new Triforce and split pushes until 18, TPs into a fight and wrecks face.
Kindred: nerfs probably drop her from 100% pick/ban, still a strong jungler though.
Lucian: nerfs mean jack shit when it's the 2-item power spike that makes him so strong, not the range of his Q or W (the first letting him clear waves and harass early on, the second not mattering at all).
Maokai: nerfs aren't enough, the tree still will be unkillable post 35 minutes.
Nidalee: rip jungle cougar lady, I hope to never see you or your fog-of-war ganks again this season.
Ryze: nerfs are small, not large enough, probably still pick/ban worthy in competitive.
Swain: nerfs are aimed mainly to stop his early game harass, probably drops him out of competitive, but will still be ban-worthy in solo Q.
Taliyah: buffs aren't enough, she needs more damage for team fights when she has only 3 skills that deal damage (compared to most other mages who have 3 or 4 damaging skills).
Vel'Koz: buffs are small, probably help him out a bit... Might show up as a support in competitive?
Zed: nerfs probably aren't enough, the bonus damage going up is the biggest offender.
Ahri: visual update.
Aurelion Sol: visual update.
Boots changes: might finally have people pick stuff other than swifties.
Triforce changes: fine changes overall, slight buff for most people who didn't benefit from the extra crit on it.
Stinger: doesn't matter a ton, as it's the combine for Nashors that mattered more than anything else.
Wit's End: buff means it'll return to being a niche item for specific champs (Teemo, Kayle, Diana).
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United States11390 Posts
The W change for Azir doesn't even mean that much given how much AS he gets from Stinger/Nashor's. A lot of Azir also like to take AS reds and the fury mastery which make it a lot easier to proc thunderlords in lane too.
However, it is annoying that the stinger > rylais build on azir is now dead with the AS decrease on stinger. Currently, stinger is the huge powerspike for Azir. You dont gain much of anything going from stinger to nashor besides 80ap and 10% cdr as the nashors passive doesnt apply on azir either.
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@Kinie
who is picking swain in competitive? I assumed it was just nerfing the numbers so he doesn't stomp low elo (plat and below) where people tf wrong and he just walks around and does lots of damage.
For competive i imagine he sucks at tower dives early, has no split push power as him he can't kill you or take turrets fast. He has no poke and no engage. You have to be in a teamfight and be fed enough that you do something. Which begs the question if you have a fed top/mid that you need tf for you can pick something with more utility
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mini rant why do people keep telling me I build teemo wrong? Like every master tier teemo 1 trick builds on hit or full split push with banner etc. But random joe still believes if you don't build this way but instead go the AP build for max shrooms. Which got nerfed over a year ago, then they added sweepers so anyone with a brain can just sweeper and never go over a shroom.
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On June 02 2016 09:18 MuddyJam wrote: @Kinie
who is picking swain in competitive? I assumed it was just nerfing the numbers so he doesn't stomp low elo (plat and below) where people tf wrong and he just walks around and does lots of damage.
For competive i imagine he sucks at tower dives early, has no split push power as him he can't kill you or take turrets fast. He has no poke and no engage. You have to be in a teamfight and be fed enough that you do something. Which begs the question if you have a fed top/mid that you need tf for you can pick something with more utility Smeb and some others. Strong individual champion, but doesn't seem to work well with most modern Pro comps.
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On June 02 2016 09:18 MuddyJam wrote: @Kinie
who is picking swain in competitive? I assumed it was just nerfing the numbers so he doesn't stomp low elo (plat and below) where people tf wrong and he just walks around and does lots of damage.
For competive i imagine he sucks at tower dives early, has no split push power as him he can't kill you or take turrets fast. He has no poke and no engage. You have to be in a teamfight and be fed enough that you do something. Which begs the question if you have a fed top/mid that you need tf for you can pick something with more utility Korea, China, Brazil, both Latin America regions, OPL... literally everybody that is in an active competition.
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United States11390 Posts
On June 02 2016 09:18 MuddyJam wrote: @Kinie
who is picking swain in competitive? I assumed it was just nerfing the numbers so he doesn't stomp low elo (plat and below) where people tf wrong and he just walks around and does lots of damage.
For competive i imagine he sucks at tower dives early, has no split push power as him he can't kill you or take turrets fast. He has no poke and no engage. You have to be in a teamfight and be fed enough that you do something. Which begs the question if you have a fed top/mid that you need tf for you can pick something with more utility http://lol.esportspedia.com/wiki/Swain/Match_History
Generally gets banned the next game too.
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Swain has been getting a ton of picks. Hes strong in lane and absolutely dumpsters the common melee picks.
Hes a tanky dps from mid or top. Yeah he doesn't have that much solo kill potential, but he brings 2-3x more damage than a maokai while being pretty much just as tanky.
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On June 02 2016 07:04 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 06:48 iCanada wrote:On June 02 2016 05:55 Slayer91 wrote:On June 02 2016 05:55 GrandInquisitor wrote: I wonder if Blitzcrank will ever budge from his status as one of the statistically best bans in the game. As of last patch he's in the top 5 on bestbans.com for every elo. there was a time blitz was played by people who didn't want to support now its just people who like blitz which is bad because his hook is crazy as fuck People that don't want to play support anymore just don't play support. lol I would queue support all the time if I knew if I queued Jungle / Support that I could play like an 80/20 split of Jungle/Sup, but if I queued that I would only ever play support. As someone that has mained jungle for 6 seasons, I want to play jungle... So now i play 50/50 jungle mid I guess. I queue as support/fill and from what I can gather from my played champions I have ~65% games as support... You guys are starting to make me think I should queue as x/support lol
dont do sup/fill if you want support the most
when I first tried that I got 2 games in a row as mid and adc, crazy I know
when I wanted sup after that I just did sup/jungle and got support every single time.
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On June 02 2016 09:18 MuddyJam wrote: @Kinie
who is picking swain in competitive? I assumed it was just nerfing the numbers so he doesn't stomp low elo (plat and below) where people tf wrong and he just walks around and does lots of damage.
For competive i imagine he sucks at tower dives early, has no split push power as him he can't kill you or take turrets fast. He has no poke and no engage. You have to be in a teamfight and be fed enough that you do something. Which begs the question if you have a fed top/mid that you need tf for you can pick something with more utility
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mini rant why do people keep telling me I build teemo wrong? Like every master tier teemo 1 trick builds on hit or full split push with banner etc. But random joe still believes if you don't build this way but instead go the AP build for max shrooms. Which got nerfed over a year ago, then they added sweepers so anyone with a brain can just sweeper and never go over a shroom.
LPL, LCK, OLE, Brazil have had him see play, usually out of top. He's been going RoA > Rylei > SV > Zhonyas in most games I believe, possibly an Abyssal somewhere in there.
He's playing a tanky sustain role and usually bullies out the melee tanks in top. In team fights so long as he's not focused down he's usually able to sit there and heal up any "splash damage" that occurs and dish out a fair bit of damage and light CC in the form of his slow/snare.
The biggest issue is he's not the most durable of tanks when compared to full-tank Trundle, Maokai, or Ekko, and the damage he deals (and sustains off of) falls off in the later game when ADCs and mages get more DPS and burst damage respectfully. That, and his engage is complete shit.
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he also has a positioning problem he's like a brick wall almost literally, he can keep the enemy team out but their adc can free damage him without fear. So his adc kinda has to kill tanks faster to win the fight, or have an entrenched position like baron/dragon bait.
I mean the thing about Swain is he's almost the exact same champion with the exact same problems, Riot just made his healing ramp up all game instead of drop off late game, so he can squeeze a little more out of his lane dominance that previously.
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Jax buff is interesting, having max stacks up more and the trinity changes could tip him over to the playable scale
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On June 02 2016 09:22 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 09:18 MuddyJam wrote: @Kinie
who is picking swain in competitive? I assumed it was just nerfing the numbers so he doesn't stomp low elo (plat and below) where people tf wrong and he just walks around and does lots of damage.
For competive i imagine he sucks at tower dives early, has no split push power as him he can't kill you or take turrets fast. He has no poke and no engage. You have to be in a teamfight and be fed enough that you do something. Which begs the question if you have a fed top/mid that you need tf for you can pick something with more utility http://lol.esportspedia.com/wiki/Swain/Match_HistoryGenerally gets banned the next game too.
You know Quas and Darshan will pick them first chance they get in LCS too.
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Idk why it was ever a mastery at all. It conflicts with basically everything riot wants in their game. Making it suboptimal is expected.
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only reason i care about it is because of 15% tenacity/slow resistance mastery which i love but there's less and less reason to go that route
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Yay, Vel'Koz buffs! Still deciding on a mid main after the Syndra changes, he might be it. Assuming I ever decide to play ranked again that is.
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yea it's nerfed to the point where it's useable but doesn't feel powerful at all (sorta like bond of stone) I'm not a fan of nerfing it further but I don't really ever take it as is so it's w/e
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Autofill seems like the right way to go with how long queue times can become when the system is short of people that want to play support.
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On June 02 2016 17:05 Redox wrote:Autofill seems like the right way to go with how long queue times can become when the system is short of people that want to play support. well theres pretty big shitstorm on reddit now and most high elo players/pro hate it
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I don't think people hate playing support or don't want to play support.
The problem is the algorithm doesn't give a weighting option between second and first priority... so in order to play your main role your secondary role cannot be support.
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Dislike the Grasp change. With the modifications to QSS and nerfs that were dished out to tank items we've seen carry tops coming back already. They should be focusing on buffing carry tops they want to see in the meta instead of forcing tanks out of it and ruining the jungle position for competitive play.
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On June 02 2016 17:05 Redox wrote:Autofill seems like the right way to go with how long queue times can become when the system is short of people that want to play support. Think Autofill is fine to me but they spend the last 8 months making people absolutely shit at playing league if they weren't in their 2 roles that now forcing them to be good again at everyone is a bit much. I mean the game has had a problem with 1 tricks for years which only got worse with the new champ select. Also now people can be punished for ignoring the champ select and just doing pick order which is what they should be doing anyway with auto fill.
I think they just didn't think Dynamic queue through properly when implementing it.
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yeah but autofill actually means support, so people will just need to add one additional role to their main 2, which is not that demanding, especially at the price of having queue times as long as before season 6
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Im a bit disappointed in the Ahri tails, I really hoped they'd have more swing to them. instead they just merge whenever she moves. Meow.
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On June 02 2016 18:52 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 17:05 Redox wrote:Autofill seems like the right way to go with how long queue times can become when the system is short of people that want to play support. I think they just didn't think Dynamic queue through properly when implementing it. Obviously if they have to make so many corrections to it (and still have tons of flaws in it). You would think they can calculate how all this stuff (queue times, average skill differences etc) will turn out in advance with all the queue data they have. Apparently not as it is actually a trial and error process for them. Idk if its in the nature of the issue or incompetence.
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So... Am I on crack, or should Nidalee passive instantly put her R as castable?
It feels like they put on a small cast delay on the reset to her R. QRWEQing camps don't work it feels like.
EDIT: NVM. I am just bad and can't play her because of the perma ban terrible at game.
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On June 02 2016 09:46 Amui wrote: Swain has been getting a ton of picks. Hes strong in lane and absolutely dumpsters the common melee picks.
Hes a tanky dps from mid or top. Yeah he doesn't have that much solo kill potential, but he brings 2-3x more damage than a maokai while being pretty much just as tanky.
he's not as tanky directly, but you have to focus him down or he just heals up stupidly fast. He's not super OP, but he's incredibly annoying to play against. He also never runs out of mana at some point, brick wall top laner.
http://www.surrenderat20.net/2016/06/61-pbe-update.html is there anyone who actually thinks grasp needs more nerfs? its sub par late game mastery every ekko,fizz tank in LCK takes fervor already. Seriously can riot be more out of touch
Grasp is a fine ability, I like how it falls off late game but dominates early. On a side note, Lucian ult critting seems a really funny way to deal with BC Ghostblade, might be what we need but I honestly don't want the horror of having no idea how much Lucian will ult me for.
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On June 02 2016 19:52 Redox wrote: Obviously if they have to make so many corrections to it (and still have tons of flaws in it). You would think they can calculate how all this stuff (queue times, average skill differences etc) will turn out in advance with all the queue data they have. Apparently not as it is actually a trial and error process for them. Idk if its in the nature of the issue or incompetence. Data doesn't mean they can perfectly predict how their algorithms will behave. You could always predict on a conceptual/theoretical level how it should work, but that doesn't mean that will translate to the practical level. If you want an overarching system it should work on all levels, not just on the lower end of the spectrum, while the high end gets fucked. I'm actually more and more in favour of splitting their system for a lower elo and a higher elo algorithm.
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Plus we have no access to the actual data. They just randomly spout percentages - and make random conclusion to push their agenda. This entire fiasco is mind numbingly retarded.
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On June 02 2016 21:01 Uldridge wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 19:52 Redox wrote: Obviously if they have to make so many corrections to it (and still have tons of flaws in it). You would think they can calculate how all this stuff (queue times, average skill differences etc) will turn out in advance with all the queue data they have. Apparently not as it is actually a trial and error process for them. Idk if its in the nature of the issue or incompetence. Data doesn't mean they can perfectly predict how their algorithms will behave. You could always predict on a conceptual/theoretical level how it should work, but that doesn't mean that will translate to the practical level. If you want an overarching system it should work on all levels, not just on the lower end of the spectrum, while the high end gets fucked. I'm actually more and more in favour of splitting their system for a lower elo and a higher elo algorithm. You also have to remember that they had other models to look at when implementing their system not just data from previous system. Could have looked at how other games worked with what they implemented and what solutions those companies came up with.
Think they just tried to reinvent the wheel thinking they wouldn't run into the exact same problems others did before them then when they do run into those problems now they scrambling to find a solution. Amateur work really.
edit: The edge case situation was always going to be bad, even when they announced the system change people talked about how bad the edge case is going to be. Since League is so much larger than most games it just means this edge case effects a lot more people than normal so I really don't get how they didn't have a plan in place from the outset. Maybe they thought they were large enough that the edge case situation would be diluted? Seems reasonable assumption to me if they had a backup plan ready as soon the system proved that wasn't the case but instead they had nothing.
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just dodge if you don't get a role you are comfortable on. it was the easiest way to climb last year and this will be no different
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It's a bit interesting just how much of a succes dynamic queue's role picking was since people are throwing fits about autofill now.
On June 02 2016 20:18 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 09:46 Amui wrote: Swain has been getting a ton of picks. Hes strong in lane and absolutely dumpsters the common melee picks.
Hes a tanky dps from mid or top. Yeah he doesn't have that much solo kill potential, but he brings 2-3x more damage than a maokai while being pretty much just as tanky. he's not as tanky directly, but you have to focus him down or he just heals up stupidly fast. He's not super OP, but he's incredibly annoying to play against. He also never runs out of mana at some point, brick wall top laner. Show nested quote +http://www.surrenderat20.net/2016/06/61-pbe-update.html is there anyone who actually thinks grasp needs more nerfs? its sub par late game mastery every ekko,fizz tank in LCK takes fervor already. Seriously can riot be more out of touch Grasp is a fine ability, I like how it falls off late game but dominates early. On a side note, Lucian ult critting seems a really funny way to deal with BC Ghostblade, might be what we need but I honestly don't want the horror of having no idea how much Lucian will ult me for. Personally I think the proposed Lucian change is bloody stupid, it smells like "hey you found a new way to play champion X, that's not how we wanted so go fuck youself" - yeah I'm exaggerating but meh. Riot have done it before with multiple other champions most of which being a AP champions going tank or non-supports going support, Fizz, Katarina, Annie, Zyra amongst others; not trying to be sarcastic but it would appear base damage is really hard to balance.
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On June 02 2016 23:20 Jek wrote:It's a bit interesting just how much of a succes dynamic queue's role picking was since people are throwing fits about autofill now. Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 20:18 DarkCore wrote:On June 02 2016 09:46 Amui wrote: Swain has been getting a ton of picks. Hes strong in lane and absolutely dumpsters the common melee picks.
Hes a tanky dps from mid or top. Yeah he doesn't have that much solo kill potential, but he brings 2-3x more damage than a maokai while being pretty much just as tanky. he's not as tanky directly, but you have to focus him down or he just heals up stupidly fast. He's not super OP, but he's incredibly annoying to play against. He also never runs out of mana at some point, brick wall top laner. http://www.surrenderat20.net/2016/06/61-pbe-update.html is there anyone who actually thinks grasp needs more nerfs? its sub par late game mastery every ekko,fizz tank in LCK takes fervor already. Seriously can riot be more out of touch Grasp is a fine ability, I like how it falls off late game but dominates early. On a side note, Lucian ult critting seems a really funny way to deal with BC Ghostblade, might be what we need but I honestly don't want the horror of having no idea how much Lucian will ult me for. Personally I think the proposed Lucian change is bloody stupid, it smells like "hey you found a new way to play champion X, that's not how we wanted so go fuck youself" - yeah I'm exaggerating but meh. Riot have done it before with multiple other champions most of which being a AP champions going tank or non-supports going support, Fizz, Katarina, Annie, Zyra amongst others; not trying to be sarcastic but it would appear base damage is really hard to balance. It also comes with the assumptions of other statistics at the time. There was no way to know on creation that down the line he'd have another 10 flat pen and 5%/stack up to 6 times armor reduction on his shit, plus 30-40% CDR depending on his core. It's just a change from the conceits at the time.
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The kindred nerfs don't feel that big to me as a Kindred player. I actually kind of think they are big buffs to soloqueue. Much much easier to get first couple stacks. No more like first mark spawning on Wolves and poor Kindred just feeling real real sad because wandering that far into blue jungle without the other jungle standing on a ward feels real gross.
Jungle clear isn't really effected. Same clear times and speeds early, no real change basically down to the auto except on buff camps and gromp which require one extra fade away auto attack.
E nerf sucks, but I don't think the smaller micro slow really stops her from doing what she wants to do early game anyway. She is still a monster inside her W and can chase over walls for scatter kills.
Q is doing slightly less damage unless you already snowballed out of control. I'll have to play a few more games with her, but after the first two she feels about the same. Would be nice if she was banned less though. I'd even like it if she was theoretically on the weaker side, if it made people quit banning her. She is fun, imo.
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On June 02 2016 23:20 Jek wrote: It's a bit interesting just how much of a succes dynamic queue's role picking was since people are throwing fits about autofill now.
Dynamic queue =/= new champion select. Either one could have been implemented individually, and they have horrid counter-synergy. It's vastly easier to build an algorithm to match solos with two picked roles than match a hodgepodge of group sizes up to 4 with picked roles to create an even game, and it's also (obviously) vastly easier to match groups together to make even games if you don't care about roles.
That's probably a big part of why their models and predictions were so off. These two things have an unpredictable and interactive effect on queue times and matchmaking fidelity.
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1: riot biggest mistake releasing dynamic q and new champ select same day because 95% can't distinguish the two.
2: Before new systeam if u qued went into rank and said fill you got support most games. Now you get support most games. WTF did they think fill would be? 20% in each roll, please unless you are absolutely retarded it was obvious more people liked certain rolls and the % would not be even.
3: Scip hits the hardest question on the patch head on!
4: Riot is not a Bond Villian, they have no super secret agenda. They are a company who makes it's money off in game purchases. Therefor they wanted as many committed people playing as they can. They make changes based on keeping the game popular and getting people more committed and spending more. They may not get it right every single time but that is the agenda.
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On June 02 2016 23:20 Jek wrote: It's a bit interesting just how much of a succes dynamic queue's role picking was since people are throwing fits about autofill now. . Isn't it like, "whats the point" of role-specific queue is a significant %of the time you don't get it? Why not just go back to pick order based on MMR ?
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On June 03 2016 00:18 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 23:20 Jek wrote: It's a bit interesting just how much of a succes dynamic queue's role picking was since people are throwing fits about autofill now.
Dynamic queue =/= new champion select. Either one could have been implemented individually, and they have horrid counter-synergy. It's vastly easier to build an algorithm to match solos with two picked roles than match a hodgepodge of group sizes up to 4 with picked roles to create an even game, and it's also (obviously) vastly easier to match groups together to make even games if you don't care about roles. That's probably a big part of why their models and predictions were so off. These two things have an unpredictable and interactive effect on queue times and matchmaking fidelity. This is a great point. It's not just that people are confusing the two, it's that they actively work against each other.
Looking forward to even more Reddit salt though and threats to quit for Overwatch. "I'm so mad about dynamic queue I'm going to go play a totally different game with dynamic queue!"
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I don't think releasing them at the same time was a mistake.
Dynamic Queue has been considered a failure in a number of games prior to LoL, and was something that the community was very opposed to from day 1.
On the other hand, people had been clamoring for a role select for years. Was something universally considered to be something that would improve the game.
By making them the same thing in most players eyes it makes it a trade off. Instead of "hey I hate this dynamic queue, give me soloqueue!" it is "man, dynamic queue sucks but at least I can always play my best roles."
On June 03 2016 01:20 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2016 00:18 TheTenthDoc wrote:On June 02 2016 23:20 Jek wrote: It's a bit interesting just how much of a succes dynamic queue's role picking was since people are throwing fits about autofill now.
Dynamic queue =/= new champion select. Either one could have been implemented individually, and they have horrid counter-synergy. It's vastly easier to build an algorithm to match solos with two picked roles than match a hodgepodge of group sizes up to 4 with picked roles to create an even game, and it's also (obviously) vastly easier to match groups together to make even games if you don't care about roles. That's probably a big part of why their models and predictions were so off. These two things have an unpredictable and interactive effect on queue times and matchmaking fidelity. This is a great point. It's not just that people are confusing the two, it's that they actively work against each other. Looking forward to even more Reddit salt though and threats to quit for Overwatch. "I'm so mad about dynamic queue I'm going to go play a totally different game with dynamic queue!"
I thought Blizz confirmed Overwatch was to have pure solo and 6v6 ranked play and just Dynamic Queue in quick play? I've been told they are removing Dynamic Queue from HotS ranked games.
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On June 03 2016 01:06 JimmiC wrote: 4: Riot is not a Bond Villian, they have no super secret agenda. They are a company who makes it's money off in game purchases. Therefor they wanted as many committed people playing as they can. They make changes based on keeping the game popular and getting people more committed and spending more. They may not get it right every single time but that is the agenda. Which alienates part of their playerbase because it grew so large it's not as uniform as it was during s2. And most people here and on reddit don't represent the largest chunk of said playerbase which is targeted by these changes. Hence all the complaints.
I've said it over and over again, but Riot's shitting on part of their playerbase because number-wise they can afford it, and because players are also weighted by how much income they can provide and not how "loyal" or competitive they are. This isn't season 2 or even season 3 LoL anymore, and I'm not talking about gameplay.
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On June 03 2016 01:10 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 23:20 Jek wrote: It's a bit interesting just how much of a succes dynamic queue's role picking was since people are throwing fits about autofill now. . Isn't it like, "whats the point" of role-specific queue is a significant %of the time you don't get it? Why not just go back to pick order based on MMR ? It was never pick order based on MMR. The closest Riot never made that stance other than "Yeah, that way but be nice to your teammates."
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If you are playing lots and not paying I'm not sure that I would describe you as loyal in Riots opinion. Your more like a necessary evil. As for weighting people on how competitive? First Pls... second there are people that are making there living off the game, some tons, I would say those people are pretty happy.
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If you've been palying 5 years, chances are you can buy any champion you want with IP, and you've already got your favourite skins. You've spent in the past. Now you're much less likely too. You aren't as interesting.
The players that were the most enthusiastic about LoL were the ones that drew others to the game via word of mouth, and early on what with the barrier of entry and stuff these were mostly "hardcore" (the "" are important, these labels got dumb) gamers used to these kind of mechanics and barriers, eg. a more competitive crowd. They don't have as much to spend anymore, they're not as numerous as the "casuals" which Riot has found a way to get to, and they've done their job of providing visibility. They aren't needed anymore, and a fresh player is worth more than them even if he's not enfranchised simply because with the way the game's changed (especially mystery gifts) he'll bring in a ton more money, even if he leaves in 6 months.
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If you've spent in the past you will likely spend again. That statement makes 0 sense from a marketing stand point. It is easier to keep customers then find new ones. Also riot needs viewership for its events. They are not making changes directed at attracting new customers at the expense of old. They are attempting to simply hit the changes that effect the most people, new and old.
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On June 03 2016 01:56 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2016 01:10 cLutZ wrote:On June 02 2016 23:20 Jek wrote: It's a bit interesting just how much of a succes dynamic queue's role picking was since people are throwing fits about autofill now. . Isn't it like, "whats the point" of role-specific queue is a significant %of the time you don't get it? Why not just go back to pick order based on MMR ? It was never pick order based on MMR. The closest Riot never made that stance other than "Yeah, that way but be nice to your teammates."
Yea, and that was one of the reasons they had to make the anti-toxicity measures, because they willfully blinded themselves to the fact that most problems started in champ select.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I don't think even the most salt-infested salt mine of saltworld would argue that New Role Select has got to go. New Role Select is probably the single best change to matchmaking that has ever taken place, as evidenced by how angry people are about "autofill". But I do think that it really exacerbates the extremely high-MMR matchmaking issue.
On June 03 2016 01:43 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2016 01:06 JimmiC wrote: 4: Riot is not a Bond Villian, they have no super secret agenda. They are a company who makes it's money off in game purchases. Therefor they wanted as many committed people playing as they can. They make changes based on keeping the game popular and getting people more committed and spending more. They may not get it right every single time but that is the agenda. Which alienates part of their playerbase because it grew so large it's not as uniform as it was during s2. And most people here and on reddit don't represent the largest chunk of said playerbase which is targeted by these changes. Hence all the complaints. I've said it over and over again, but Riot's shitting on part of their playerbase because number-wise they can afford it, and because players are also weighted by how much income they can provide and not how "loyal" or competitive they are. This isn't season 2 or even season 3 LoL anymore, and I'm not talking about gameplay. To be clear - Reddit will always shit on Riot. Every single change Riot has ever made to the game, according to Reddit, ruined it. This game died when Challenger Tier was introduced. It died when trinkets were introduced. It died when jungle timers were introduced. It died when Duskblade was introduced.
So is it fair to say that Riot is actually shitting on its playerbase? You're dealing with an entity of pure rage, where multiple top-voted posts called Riot literally Hitler because hextech crafting gave group players marginally enhanced key fragment drop rates. Dynamic Queue is just what 2016 reddit has chosen to be angry about.
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On June 03 2016 01:10 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2016 23:20 Jek wrote: It's a bit interesting just how much of a succes dynamic queue's role picking was since people are throwing fits about autofill now. . Isn't it like, "whats the point" of role-specific queue is a significant %of the time you don't get it? Why not just go back to pick order based on MMR ? pick order based on mmr was god awful. the difference in mmr would literally be a single point in most cases
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yes but you would be 1 point ahead the same amount of times you're one point behind..........
and higher elos the difference was significant
I liked it because it meant if you were good you got the role you wanted and if you didn't you got to support better players
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On June 03 2016 03:15 GrandInquisitor wrote:
To be clear - Reddit will always shit on Riot. Every single change Riot has ever made to the game, according to Reddit, ruined it. This game died when Challenger Tier was introduced. It died when trinkets were introduced. It died when jungle timers were introduced. It died when Duskblade was introduced.
So is it fair to say that Riot is actually shitting on its playerbase? You're dealing with an entity of pure rage, where multiple top-voted posts called Riot literally Hitler because hextech crafting gave group players marginally enhanced key fragment drop rates. Dynamic Queue is just what 2016 reddit has chosen to be angry about.
Reddit has a (IMO) unhealthy investment in streamers, so I doubt they will every really get off the dynamic queue hate-train until queue times are lower for the Bjerson or nightblue, or whichever clown they like now.
On June 03 2016 03:15 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2016 01:10 cLutZ wrote:On June 02 2016 23:20 Jek wrote: It's a bit interesting just how much of a succes dynamic queue's role picking was since people are throwing fits about autofill now. . Isn't it like, "whats the point" of role-specific queue is a significant %of the time you don't get it? Why not just go back to pick order based on MMR ? pick order based on mmr was god awful. the difference in mmr would literally be a single point in most cases
Not really an issue. People would never know, so Riot could have just released numbers (and we know they can massage them to make a point) saying, "the average first pick is 100 MMR higher than lastpick! So make sure you respect pick order!" But they didn't, so the issue was it wasn't enforced enough by Riot (i.e. being non-compliant with pick order was never treated nearly as harshly as calling someone a n****** or c*** etc, even though it was the root cause of a bigger % of tilting and ingame trolling, than typed language ever was, from what I saw).
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On June 03 2016 03:15 GrandInquisitor wrote:
To be clear - Reddit will always shit on Riot. Every single change Riot has ever made to the game, according to Reddit, ruined it. This game died when Challenger Tier was introduced. It died when trinkets were introduced. It died when jungle timers were introduced. It died when Duskblade was introduced.
So is it fair to say that Riot is actually shitting on its playerbase? You're dealing with an entity of pure rage, where multiple top-voted posts called Riot literally Hitler because hextech crafting gave group players marginally enhanced key fragment drop rates. Dynamic Queue is just what 2016 reddit has chosen to be angry about. its not only reddit check their official forum besides 2 years ago reddit used to be in love of riot, any negative comments were downvoted into oblivion in matter of seconds its the recent changes which made their most loyal and long lasting player base angry
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Lucian Attack speed per level lowered to 1.5 from 3.3 Lightslinger (Passive) second shot can no longer critically strike
This is taking ADC hate too far.
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tried out the MF variation of no crit build. Feels really good man, pretty sure I could one shot the enemy adc if I got a creep kill Q bounce after Duskblade, sadly the opportunity hasn't presented itself since the lane phase is usually over.
On June 03 2016 04:56 Ansibled wrote: Lucian Attack speed per level lowered to 1.5 from 3.3 Lightslinger (Passive) second shot can no longer critically strike
This is taking ADC hate too far.
Doesn't seem to matter that much Lucian players aren't building crit items as is, maybe they want him to buy new Trinity? I don't see it outperforming Ghostblade or BC but maybe if you have a BC top? Most likely just wishful thinking.
I think it's a really bad nerf if they want him to go back to essence.
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Lucian's passive is still dumb just because of how it can decide a fight on a dice roll more often than already happens once he's got crit. aa-Q-aa or aa-E-aa with a double crit on any of the autos and you just 100-0'd any squishy late game (and shove him out of the fight if there's no Soraka in midgame).
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That is just an issue with critical hits in general, although this change will reduce his effective crit chance.
This will be the last time I comment on Fizz changes until the next patch notes are released because I'll probably qq too much if so. But I think we all saw Fizz nerfs coming when the qss change happened. The problem with Fizz is Riot has gone so all in on wanting him to blow E offensively to do damage while ult is on cd, that his base damages are already pretty terrible.
Like if you want a poster boy for how overpowered mobility is in this game take a look at Fizz's base damage, there is a reason he see's play and base damage isn't it. Following that logic a nerf to E cd makes sense, the only base damage number that even has room to nerf is his missing health dot. Personally I really hope they don't do that, I feel like his missing health dot is the bridge to getting the items you need to be a threat when ult is on cd.
The nimble fighter nerf is so annoying, I just wish creep block wasn't a think in this game in general, nerfing a hero by saying "we're going to let poor pathfinding rng lead to some out trades" is frustrating.
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On June 03 2016 03:17 Slayer91 wrote: yes but you would be 1 point ahead the same amount of times you're one point behind..........
and higher elos the difference was significant
I liked it because it meant if you were good you got the role you wanted and if you didn't you got to support better players it didn't mean that though. out of 5 players on your team mmr differences are small enough to be irrelevant at determining who is better.
you were literally a queue dodge away between first and last pick.
~150 mmr is pretty normal fluctuation for any person so having teammates within that range deciding pick order is dumb
it also made duo queues get pick advantage as they'd be given first or last pick every game
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well if it's irrelevant it's fine as long as you get each slot roughly 20% of the time
but the higher you get the bigger the gaps get and the more it makes sense i mean that was before dynamic queue
duos were usually double last or first/last yea, but the system punishes duos super hard thus the classic case of the duo bot lane feeding because they were last picks and outclassed mmr wise
not sure what you consider pick advantage is last pick good because you can counter or is first pick good because you get what you want?
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On June 03 2016 07:03 Slayer91 wrote: well if it's irrelevant it's fine as long as you get each slot roughly 20% of the time
but the higher you get the bigger the gaps get and the more it makes sense i mean that was before dynamic queue
duos were usually double last or first/last yea, but the system punishes duos super hard thus the classic case of the duo bot lane feeding because they were last picks and outclassed mmr wise the only point where it would've had a noticeable effect was in challenger.
everything below that had a large number of players in small mmr range
the pick advantage is being given both every game just because you duo with someone higher or lower than you.
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not sure what you're talking about back in the old days anything higher than like 1800 you got your pick a sizeable amount of the time and when you didn't and got last pick you were playing with the guys in pro teams or that level
not sure why first/last is pick advantage surely first/last is about as good as 2.5th pick on average?
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On June 03 2016 07:06 Slayer91 wrote: not sure what you're talking about back in the old days anything higher than like 1800 you got your pick a noticeable amount of the time and when you didn't and got last pick you were playing with the guys in pro teams or that level i mean that the mmr difference between master and challenger reaches multiple hundreds.
the difference between d2 and d1 or d1 and master is at most 200ish which is pretty close to fluctuating levels just from playing the game
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20 mmr gaps could be like 100 from first to last it's significant anyway i'm not sure what your argument is either theres lots of ppl in the MMR range and you get distributed between pick slots and the skill is about the same or there isn't and higher rated ppl get pick priority
right now the system is doing it randomly which works well in most cases but badly when a big mmr gap exists
except it doesn't matter now because of dyn q
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On June 03 2016 07:08 Slayer91 wrote: 20 mmr gaps could be like 100 from first to last it's significant anyway i'm not sure what your argument is either theres lots of ppl in the MMR range and you get distributed between pick slots and the skill is about the same or there isn't and higher rated ppl get pick priority
right now the system is doing it randomly which works well in most cases but badly when a big mmr gap exists
except it doesn't matter now because of dyn q the point is that 100 mmr isn't a meaningful enough difference in skill to determine who should get first pick. this is why it was randomized. you can go up or down 100+ mmr in a single day over the course of like 5 games. it's just not the case that you got better or worse over the course of those games and therefore 100 mmr should not determine what pick order is
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the beauty of statistics is that on average it does matter
a pseudo random system like this makes more sense than a pure random one
the 100 mmr on average makes a difference, how much doesn't matter because once you decide you want to give pick priority to higher ranked players you should do so i don't see why you want an arbitrary cut off point for when you should get first pick
we aren't stealing peoples first picks here, on average you'll still get the same amount of times first pick/last pick etc its just that in your games the higher ranked people get their roles more often
it was a good system I think. Not sure on their reasoning for removing it. Probably the toxicity of "last pick sucks".
like you're basically saying you shouldn't say a certain hand in poker is stronger than another because on a given day the "weaker hand" could win 9 times out of 10 yes it can but on average the stronger hand wins and on average the 100 mmr player is quite a bit better
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On June 03 2016 07:17 Slayer91 wrote: the beauty of statistics is that on average it does matter
a pseudo random system like this makes more sense than a pure random one
the 100 mmr on average makes a difference, how much doesn't matter because once you decide you want to give pick priority to higher ranked players you should do so i don't see why you want an arbitrary cut off point for when you should get first pick
we aren't stealing peoples first picks here, on average you'll still get the same amount of times first pick/last pick etc its just that in your games the higher ranked people get their roles more often
it was a good system I think. Not sure on their reasoning for removing it. Probably the toxicity of "last pick sucks".
like you're basically saying you shouldn't say a certain hand in poker is stronger than another because on a given day the "weaker hand" could win 9 times out of 10 yes it can but on average the stronger hand wins and on average the 100 mmr player is quite a bit better
you know what statistically evens out over time and has less exploitability and edge cases? random pick order. thus we have that instead now
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wat
mmr pick order gives exactly the same results as random pick order for anything that isn't high elo or duos with big mmr differences mmr pick order is better for high elo and they handled the duo thing by restricting it
like, frolossus, you know that for average player experience it doesnt matter at all right?
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Frossie,
If you are arguing that MMR-based pick order is essentially random for all but higher MMR, that is not an argument against it. Pick order had to/has to be determined some way, and MMR is the best way given the tools the game has at its disposal. Random has no benefits to it, MMR gives the system a chance of giving the best player ban control and first role priority.
Given the new role-based queue an interesting thing would to assign pick order based on the relative probability that your assigned role is picked at that point in pro play. That would be kinda fun, for a day.
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On June 03 2016 07:34 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2016 07:17 Slayer91 wrote: the beauty of statistics is that on average it does matter
a pseudo random system like this makes more sense than a pure random one
the 100 mmr on average makes a difference, how much doesn't matter because once you decide you want to give pick priority to higher ranked players you should do so i don't see why you want an arbitrary cut off point for when you should get first pick
we aren't stealing peoples first picks here, on average you'll still get the same amount of times first pick/last pick etc its just that in your games the higher ranked people get their roles more often
it was a good system I think. Not sure on their reasoning for removing it. Probably the toxicity of "last pick sucks".
like you're basically saying you shouldn't say a certain hand in poker is stronger than another because on a given day the "weaker hand" could win 9 times out of 10 yes it can but on average the stronger hand wins and on average the 100 mmr player is quite a bit better
you know what statistically evens out over time and has less exploitability and edge cases? random pick order. thus we have that instead now assuming random people every game it doesnt makes any difference and if u were duoing with person with significantly lower elo imo they should have lower pick order
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Anyone else's ingame interface bugged all to hell?
Pings don't work at all. My enter key does literally nothing. I can't even get the chat box window to open. Same with Z to check the chat. Its just totally busted.
How am I supposed to communicate with no pings and no chat? Does this mean I am chat restricted? I only type timers and shit like "bait baron" in chat.
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idk theres been a bunch of issues in general all over
i encountered the fiora bug a few days ago which doesn't let her TP until she hits a minion or some shit
and just today I had a bug with ziggs where I couldn't TP from base for like 5 seconds until I reached my nexus turret or w.e
not to mention tons of client bugs as well
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Buying hextech champ shards is out.
If you own all but the 6300 champs, it's cheaper to buy the shards and get a random champ vs. buying champs outright.
I got 2 shards that I want to keep though, so it'll still be a while before I unlock any champs with it.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
This is kind of nice though for entirely the opposite reasons that Reddit thinks. Everyone has always criticized the NA ranked ladder for being too full of streamers instead of people tryharding. Maybe the streaming ban will create a subgroup of players that takes ranked more seriously and improves the NA scene. Plus the NATR probably has low ping for the CA players.
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On June 03 2016 12:55 cLutZ wrote: Frossie,
If you are arguing that MMR-based pick order is essentially random for all but higher MMR, that is not an argument against it. Pick order had to/has to be determined some way, and MMR is the best way given the tools the game has at its disposal. Random has no benefits to it, MMR gives the system a chance of giving the best player ban control and first role priority.
Given the new role-based queue an interesting thing would to assign pick order based on the relative probability that your assigned role is picked at that point in pro play. That would be kinda fun, for a day. that's the point. pick order should not give any advantages to anyone in any case. that is why it was randomized
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On June 03 2016 23:16 GrandInquisitor wrote: This is kind of nice though for entirely the opposite reasons that Reddit thinks. Everyone has always criticized the NA ranked ladder for being too full of streamers instead of people tryharding. Maybe the streaming ban will create a subgroup of players that takes ranked more seriously and improves the NA scene. Plus the NATR probably has low ping for the CA players. I'm pretty sure people like streams a lot more than NA doing well.
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EU LCS stream not showing on my sidebar. Anyone else have this?
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Same here. lolesports has a nice setup for the streams.
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On June 03 2016 23:49 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2016 12:55 cLutZ wrote: Frossie,
If you are arguing that MMR-based pick order is essentially random for all but higher MMR, that is not an argument against it. Pick order had to/has to be determined some way, and MMR is the best way given the tools the game has at its disposal. Random has no benefits to it, MMR gives the system a chance of giving the best player ban control and first role priority.
Given the new role-based queue an interesting thing would to assign pick order based on the relative probability that your assigned role is picked at that point in pro play. That would be kinda fun, for a day. that's the point. pick order should not give any advantages to anyone in any case. that is why it was randomized But that is not what they did at all. Pick order still gives advantages, they just randomized the allocation of the advantage.
Its like if Warren Buffet established a scholarship fund that gave out 10,000 scholarships a year to Nebraska high school seniors. Whether he allocates those randomly, or by some merit that he chooses, 10,000 kids are still getting a leg up in life. By not choosing, you still are making a choice: The choice to abdicate responsibility.
We have a very recent esports example with elemental drake:
+ Show Spoiler + G2 vs. Origen Game 1
G2 basically stomped this game, they controlled everything. @9 minutes they got first drake (air), @17 second drake (air again) and a 3k gold lead @ 24 3rd dake (air!) and a 6k gold lead, @28 baron >1 inhib, 2 inhib tower @31 4th drake (water), 11k gold lead, and they win at 34 mins or so.
Now, this is a happy tale because despite G2 getting almost no neutral objective rewards for their first 24 minutes of dominance, they won. On the other hand, they had to make some risky plays around baron, pulled off a baron, that could have swung the game, plays that would have been a formality with Earth, Water, or Fire drake buffs. Its not that random dragon didn't give any advantage because it was random. It did give an advantage (to Origen, just not enough to make up for them being much worse), it is just that Riot, by making it random, says "we didn't choose to give them 3 straight air drakes (even though, they did by choosing random).
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
You can't just say, if they had the same advantage with Fire Dragon they would have stomped, because Origen might have consciously chosen not to contest the Air Dragon because it was an Air Dragon, and taken something else in exchange.
(Not that they did, but just pointing out that Origen knew which dragon it was giving up when it decided not to contest.)
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On June 04 2016 02:48 GrandInquisitor wrote: You can't just say, if they had the same advantage with Fire Dragon they would have stomped, because Origen might have consciously chosen not to contest the Air Dragon because it was an Air Dragon, and taken something else in exchange.
(Not that they did, but just pointing out that Origen knew which dragon it was giving up when it decided not to contest.) Well, that is just another advantage to Origen. G2 wanted to fight them at the early dragons so they could snowball their lead before item leads become less relevant, and also its pretty hard to take an early baron against the Corki-Varus poke. I mean, that is a throw waiting to happen.
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The Issue with Autofill is it's just a even more bad version of prior champ select. Before everyone came in roleless, essentially autofilled, and they figure out their roles. now a couple people get their role, the rest are told they have to play a specific role, and yes they can ignore it, but it takes even more work to coordinate now than before it was added. not to mention you get the added queue times for a worse end result when you get autofilled.
And only NATR access players being able to actually play on a skilled ladder is going to hurt NA a ton. The asian scenes all switche to the KR server to avoid as much of the issues of dynamic queue+champ select as possible. the west can't do that ping-wise. EU isn't going to come to the NA server to cater to the west coast pro scene, and west coast to EUW is a nightmare.
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I think autofill is 99.99% just adding support to your role selection, so its not that complex as you are trying to describe it. And if there is really a role that no one wants to play, until riot find a way to fix it (if possible at all), I think that is only fair all of us to equally share the responsibility.
Which servers got the autofill, outside of NA? any others?
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On June 05 2016 00:51 M2 wrote: I think autofill is 99.99% just adding support to your role selection, so its not that complex as you are trying to describe it. And if there is really a role that no one wants to play, until riot find a way to fix it (if possible at all), I think that is only fair all of us to equally share the responsibility.
Which servers got the autofill, outside of NA? any others? Oh i just meant.
Before new champ select: 5 players have to fill their roles and have some choice
After autofill: some players have to fill, with no choice of role
The compromise for the huge increase in queue time, was a worse hero select than before.
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Is it really that rare to not get a support in high Elo? After a quick google-fu it appears, from a 1 year old analysis, that ~10% of all challengers are support mains that's for both NA and EU ladder. So even if you have every non-support players not pick support or fill in their selection you are more likely to get a support player than not.
Using the naive assumption that master tier is following a similar distribution, it looks like autofill is more of a countermeasure against the low player pool than against a lack of role X players. To be honest I think this outrage against autofill is simply because people have forgotten how it was prior to role select you even have the option to not join a queue with autofill enabled. Long queue timers or opt into a shorter queue times and maybe not get a role you picked. For me it just seems like old system++
On a sidenote it's a bit interesting how EU supports are miles ahead of their NA counterparts. oO
Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/37rla0/role_distribution_in_challenger/
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United States11390 Posts
NA supports are miles ahead of the meta though
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If an up to date analysis would still show EU supports are still doing significant better I'm tbh pretty baffled. NA supports in LCS/CS are in my opinion better than the ones we have over here. Maybe EU have an untapped talentpool of non-professional supports?
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Maybe NA's pro supports just play less Soloqueue. Its hard to say without a real solid distribution graph.
/shrug
I know there were a few NA guys who refused to play support in soloqeue unless they were duoing with a pro ADC.
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I dont see why anyone would want elo based pick order - I personally think last pick is way stronger than first pick this season, especially when i get what I wanted without fighting for my role. Cannot pick Xer or Yasuo first pick imo.
Also Taliyah's whole play pattern is god awful. I've never felt so held back by the abilities of the champ im playing. It ... just doesnt click if that statement makes sense.
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On June 03 2016 04:56 Ansibled wrote: Lucian Attack speed per level lowered to 1.5 from 3.3 Lightslinger (Passive) second shot can no longer critically strike
This is taking ADC hate too far.
hes picked in literally half of all the matches worldwide. He has a great early, great mid and an ok late. Lucian is rediculously op. Picture for a second a world where you pick lategame champions to run an endgame composition. Why is Lucian, who dominates lane, the champion du jour for the best team in the world in that composition (Bang's Lucian + Faker's Lulu)? And then you give him a build even stronger than the build that they ran at worlds and you wonder why he's getting nerfed.
Frankly people should be grateful his early game isnt really getting nerfed at all. Now if you're gonna pick a midgame dominant adc, then you're going to get one. The next one they have to deal with imo is Ez. They have relatively low risk and high reward when compared to vayne, or twitch, or MF.
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On June 05 2016 05:46 Purge wrote: Also Taliyah's whole play pattern is god awful. I've never felt so held back by the abilities of the champ im playing. It ... just doesnt click if that statement makes sense.
Why do you say that?
I think her E and W are quite easy to use.
I really do wish the W was able to be smartcast like Victor lazer or Rumble ult... but alas I dunno.
The worked ground on her Q feels awful. Don't max that shit, only useful in teamfights or all inning real real early.
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On June 05 2016 03:41 Jek wrote: If an up to date analysis would still show EU supports are still doing significant better I'm tbh pretty baffled. NA supports in LCS/CS are in my opinion better than the ones we have over here. Maybe EU have an untapped talentpool of non-professional supports? Looking at the pro scene, and the sheer number of retreads vs. how often new talent exploded into the scene in earlier seasons, it is safe to assume all regions have large untapped talent pools. The problem being that going from ranked to pro games is now a much more intricate and arduous process, plus Korea losing sister teams. So tons simply aren't making that transition anymore.
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Sitting in this loading screen, I feel real bad for the jungler on the other team.
Pantheon + TF + Reksai all on the same team. Good luck ganking anything. The old 2xtp-3xglobal be everywhere kill everything comp.
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On June 05 2016 06:47 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2016 05:46 Purge wrote: Also Taliyah's whole play pattern is god awful. I've never felt so held back by the abilities of the champ im playing. It ... just doesnt click if that statement makes sense. Why do you say that? I think her E and W are quite easy to use. I really do wish the W was able to be smartcast like Victor lazer or Rumble ult... but alas I dunno. The worked ground on her Q feels awful. Don't max that shit, only useful in teamfights or all inning real real early.
Its mostly the self silence on the W and the worked ground mechanic. Its super easy to lose track of the worked ground itself, its obnoxious when you're sieging (either into or defending) to keep finding a new patch of earth that doesn't leave you completely overextended. You cant cheese it and stand next to a wall to make the total diameter of the circle smaller and frankly, because its backloaded so heavily the spell is super easy to dodge. Also her ult does no damage so if you arent good w/ Q then good luck doing much of anything outside of fishing for EW.
Im tempted to complain about her build path sucking too and what have you, but I think that is just me not knowing the best way through a game on her. I'm sure that she works for some people, but shes disharmonious in my eyes at least.
Also why is WE not a thing that her developer is willing to make work. Like goddamn.
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I think EW combo feels the best right now. She can actually run at a lot of kids, EW, and just melt their face currently. Its a real weird play pattern though, also kind of risky because of how awkward W is to shoot. But if you land that, you can then Q them when they knocked away from their minions and they either die or flash. It is pretty strong actually.
The developer is just being stubborn as fuck. WE would be way better, but meh. I have a feeling once the balance team gets their hands on her (should be within a patch or so) we'll prolly get vector targetting on W. I agree the self silence on it feels real real bad. If it stays the way it is now, she might never be a good pick.
Worked ground kind of feels gross, but I play a lot of Midtheon, so I am used to aggressively shoving and leaning towards my jungler quite hard, so I think I get quite a lot more ground than most players do to work with. I think it should pretty much just be used for all inning, last hitting under tower with the single Q, or making a path for you to run real fast from ganks to your jungler.
I hear what you are saying. She is in a weird spot, I think she needs some "QoL" love and she'll be a strong pick. Notably, I think you should have to recast R to get off the wall, not to get on. Feels incredibly unintuitive, I havn't seen a single person use it right the first time. lol. I also think W should be vector cast without the self silence. But... What do I know.
EDIT: AP Ekko's everywhere just popping off killing everything. LOL. Seen one go legendary in three straight games.
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On June 05 2016 12:04 iCanada wrote: I think EW combo feels the best right now. She can actually run at a lot of kids, EW, and just melt their face currently. Its a real weird play pattern though, also kind of risky because of how awkward W is to shoot. But if you land that, you can then Q them when they knocked away from their minions and they either die or flash. It is pretty strong actually.
The developer is just being stubborn as fuck. WE would be way better, but meh. I have a feeling once the balance team gets their hands on her (should be within a patch or so) we'll prolly get vector targetting on W. I agree the self silence on it feels real real bad. If it stays the way it is now, she might never be a good pick.
Worked ground kind of feels gross, but I play a lot of Midtheon, so I am used to aggressively shoving and leaning towards my jungler quite hard, so I think I get quite a lot more ground than most players do to work with. I think it should pretty much just be used for all inning, last hitting under tower with the single Q, or making a path for you to run real fast from ganks to your jungler.
I hear what you are saying. She is in a weird spot, I think she needs some "QoL" love and she'll be a strong pick. Notably, I think you should have to recast R to get off the wall, not to get on. Feels incredibly unintuitive, I havn't seen a single person use it right the first time. lol. I also think W should be vector cast without the self silence. But... What do I know.
EDIT: AP Ekko's everywhere just popping off killing everything. LOL. Seen one go legendary in three straight games. Champ has too much utility in his kit. Unless they go totally overboard with nerfs I don't see ekko falling out of play with just number nerfs.
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They actually buffed his AP ratios again.
I think its funny because he didn't need AP buffs, he was in a good spot with AP before. Its just the obnoxious utility and damage he does as a tank that is broken.
Legit mid-lane Ekko been picked since like 6.3 in LCK all the time. More popular a pick than Varus Mid. KT, Rox, and SKT play it all the time.
Not a huge buff (like 130 damage on a full combo or something with 500 AP), but I don't think he really needed it in the first place.
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On June 05 2016 17:15 iCanada wrote: They actually buffed his AP ratios again.
I think its funny because he didn't need AP buffs, he was in a good spot with AP before. Its just the obnoxious utility and damage he does as a tank that is broken.
Legit mid-lane Ekko been picked since like 6.3 in LCK all the time. More popular a pick than Varus Mid. KT, Rox, and SKT play it all the time. At this point i think riot either doesn't know what makes characters play in specific roles on a design level, or they keep assigning new employees to reworks and rebalances and never use their experienced designers for anything. Which causes these cycles of the same issues over and over.
+ Show Spoiler +Drop the % missing HP, replace it with reducing his passive cooldown to like 3 seconds, drop the three stack passive base damage, increase the scaling to 100% AP, change the bonus self heal on ult into flat shield of % of damage taken, having the heal scale at like .4 AP . raise the 2nd part of the rewinder damage by 50%. And he's completely disincentivized from being a damn tank finally
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Holy...
I just got legit 400 stacks on Nasus an 18 minute ARAM.
Relic/Targon Execute Q OP. tfw you think you trolling hard and you not.
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Champ has too much utility in his kit. Unless they go totally overboard with nerfs I don't see ekko falling out of play with just number nerfs.
Riot balance team is like a floundering fish when it comes to dealing with Ekko. Yesterday we saw Huni play AP Ekko top and he was styling on Gragas not because of damage but because his kit is designed to outplay. I could live with him doing more damage but not in his current state.
Played against a good Taliyah today, coordinated bot lane dives are a nightmare for non mobile ADC: you get pressed into the wall and then dived on, quite difficult to deal with. Wonder if she will see competitive play
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On June 06 2016 02:35 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +Champ has too much utility in his kit. Unless they go totally overboard with nerfs I don't see ekko falling out of play with just number nerfs. Riot balance team is like a floundering fish when it comes to dealing with Ekko. Yesterday we saw Huni play AP Ekko top and he was styling on Gragas not because of damage but because his kit is designed to outplay. I could live with him doing more damage but not in his current state. Played against a good Taliyah today, coordinated bot lane dives are a nightmare for non mobile ADC: you get pressed into the wall and then dived on, quite difficult to deal with. Wonder if she will see competitive play
thats being pretty disingenuous to the game, he was fairly useless.
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For the same logic of why voice chat is not enabled why do we have chat? Like i see a huge number of games where the outcome is decided by someone getting upset. Like you could keep private chat and pick+bans etc but in game is just there for people to flame. Quality of league would go up from less flame for most players.
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So much hubris in this article. The writer assumes that they are the voice of millions of players and that that subset is the only important base of riots customers. That alone makes it not entirely worth listening to. And honestly he doesnt really touch on the more annoying things - that sometimes it feels like overwhelmingly the game hinges on the communication within your team premade than anyone else for example. Instead its just the same populist drivel that everyone can circlejerk to and get mad over.
/end
Chat exists as a legacy from when this game was S1 and really probably isnt going to ever get removed. If for the memes than nothing else.
Dunno how I feel about Ekko. the part of me that loves the idea of an AP yasuo loves him, but the irrational part of me that hates his gameplay and just dealing with him because of the tank meta thinks hes just terribly made. Now that hes not stupid I might try him out midlane again.
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theres one good point about dynamic q is that people who only play tryhard dynamic q's like mid/jungle/support trios or something will get a large advantage over people solo qing or randomly playing with friends, might need to have extra checks that trios play mostly vs trios and so forth but it punishes people not super tryharding but I guess thats fine tbh
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
His complaint is that "In season 6, we wait thirty minutes for a game filled with Challengers, Masters, and Diamonds ranging from D1 to D5 (sometimes even platinum players enter the fray)".
Here is every ranked game he's played on his main account in the last month: http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=strompest
Challenger x3, Master, D2 > Master x5 Challenger x2, Master x2, D2 > Master x4, D1 Challenger, Master x3, D2 < Master x5 Challenger x4, Master < Challenger x3, Master x2 Challenger, D1 x3, D2 > Master, D1 x4 Challenger x2, Master x2, D2 > Master x5 Challenger x4, Master < Challenger, Master x4 Challenger x2, Master x2, D1 < Challenger x2, Master x3
Feel free to go through his alt account too - basically the same there, except that since he was Master for those games there's slightly fewer Challengers and slightly more Diamonds.
From this I can conclude that this man is simply full of shit.
His matchmaking looks pretty balanced. His main account hasn't played with anyone lower than Diamond II in a month. Plus those Diamond II's tend to do really well, implying that they are just climbing quickly. For example the last Diamond II player he played with is now Master with 60% winrate.
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Why the hell do ADC's who are getting wrecked buy Cull? What is the thought process? "hey I am losing lane better spend some of my gold on combat inefficient items"?
I just straight up don't understand. Do all ADC players just think they are the best player in the world and they will just outplay the other guy currently beating them when they buy poor combat items and the other guy has more gold spent on actual combat items? Like a solo lane getting wrecked buys extra Doran items (Hell, Faker bought 3 doran rings on Anivia just a few hours ago in LCK) to stop the bleeding. A jungler getting wrecked in 2v2s buys green smite and makes sure he just doesn't fight any situation where it isn't advantageous. ADC players just like drop their trousers and bend over the barrel themselves.
I've seen pro players, high MMR players, bad players, and everything in between do this. I don't understand at all. I see it all the time (almost every other game in fact, whether it is LCS, my own Soloqueue, or streams), and I have literally never seen it do anything but get them killed more. Can anyone actually explain this at all?
On a different note, Diamondprox (sub for APEX right now) has been rushing GA as a second item after Bloodrazer on Kindred in his last few games this patch. Kind of makes sense, makes you tanky as hell when you think about it; your W will heal you probably 3 times in any all in skirmish or fight, then you get the heal from R. Level 6 thats a solid (54*3+200)=362. If they have a comp with a good damage split, I don't think there is a single item in the game for kindred that makes you tankier than just GA. Maybe Zz'Rot? I'm curious to try it out some, when Kindred escapes the ban phase that is. <_<
Speaking of Zz'Rot, how good is the movespeed passive from the raptor cloak? 1200 gold for 45 armor and tower dive speed actually sounds pretty attractive.
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every adc thinks "I'm behind there is zero way I can catch up no matter what so I'll just farm up a cull" every adc is insanely defeatist if they miss 3 cs in lane they have no hope for the future until 30 mins and 4 items
if you want the move speed get ohmwrecker
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Ugh. Its just so greedy.
If you buy an extra DBlade instead your jungler can at least make a play bottom if you on 2x Dblade + Longsword and they on DBlade + BF. If the 2nd DBlade is a Cull instead its not really worth the junglers time to come because you can't even engage your not only are you getting smashed, but now your Jungler is too because there was like 1000 gold handed out the other way when all 3 of you inevitably die.
Being down like 500 gold is bad enough as it is, when it turns into an effective 800 you're just dead. The risk / reward of someone coming to help you is awful: Worst case that loses the game, best case you are still 500 gold behind after the play works. Suddenly the only way helping you makes sense is if multiple people show up while the other team is diving top. Gross.
ADC's... Please stop it.
Honestly... Best case scenario you are up 180 gold in your build path than if you just didn't buy it at all. 180 gold! I get it if it is a farm lane, or you are in a winning lane, you get the 7 AD for free mid game. But when you are behind...
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no you don't understand they missed 3 cs the lane is over might as well farm
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I mean... you could also buy a DBlade and the scenario where the actual 500 gold difference and your effective gold difference is only 200, and that is gankable as hell. That is even a gank where if you play the 3v3 well you can get counter ganked and not lose the game. You can even possibly win the 3v3.
But I mean, if you're 3cs behind I guess...
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dblade doesn't make a profit mate
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I don't think the difference is as big as you are suggesting for a jungler. The AD of the two items is basically identical. The only difference is your health pool, which probably doesn't matter as much if you're the ones trying to initiate on them.
I'll grant you that 2x Doran's Blade > Cull + Doran's Blade, but you make it sound like ganking for a Doran's Blade / Cull lane is absolutely impossible but ganking for a 2x Doran's Blade lane is ezpz.
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yea sounds a bit oversalty it's not that big a deal and you won't influence the playerbase as a whole bitching on TL
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It is a bit exaggerated but it is pretty close to that break point where you just can't help. The Dblade is legit 400 gold more combat stats than cull. That is 20 cs worth of combat stats. If they already behind enough to feel like they need a cull that means they effectively 30 to 40 cs behind.
It is quite close to where you just can't help. It's also much more dangerous than ganking a mid or top that far behind because you are guaranteed to have less vision because the other lane gets 2 incontested pinks instead of one. You also have to worry about more summoners as well as the response of their top / mid / jungle more because there is no way to get to the lane without walking through wards because bot lane just has that much warding power.
It's a huge risk ganking a barely behind bot lane. It's real scary ganking a very behind bot lane.
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It's also 400 gold further away from having a real item.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I mean, you can keep saying "400 gold more combat stats than cull" but that doesn't make it true. Cull has one less AD (35 gold) and 80 less health (213 gold).
Even ignoring the fact that Cull's life-on-hit is worth more than Doran's Blade's lifesteal early in the game, all you're really saying is that a gank where your ADC lives with 80 HP wouldn't work if he had bought Cull instead.
Put another way, you saying that you "just can't gank" for a level 6 Caitlyn with Doran's Blade + Cull is like saying "sorry I can't gank because you're only 840/920 HP and you're missing one AD mark".
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I can tell you as a guy trying out support main for the first time the I lost lane can never win after small hiccup is real. I also find its like they have PTSD and the instant something goes wrong they look to blame me or the jungler. I usually just say chill all good and often they snap out of it. I also think if I mained ADC I'd find supports have the same blame induced PTSD.
Also I think it is one of the easiest lanes to bounce back in because if your losing and getting pushed you can have jungler gank, Mid roam or a TP from top. Or even better a combo of them. In a heart beat you can pick up 2-3 kills anytime. So don't lose heart friends!
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is autofill anywhere else but NA? why only there?
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On June 07 2016 00:53 iCanada wrote: Why the hell do ADC's who are getting wrecked buy Cull? What is the thought process? "hey I am losing lane better spend some of my gold on combat inefficient items"?
I just straight up don't understand. Do all ADC players just think they are the best player in the world and they will just outplay the other guy currently beating them when they buy poor combat items and the other guy has more gold spent on actual combat items? Like a solo lane getting wrecked buys extra Doran items (Hell, Faker bought 3 doran rings on Anivia just a few hours ago in LCK) to stop the bleeding. A jungler getting wrecked in 2v2s buys green smite and makes sure he just doesn't fight any situation where it isn't advantageous. ADC players just like drop their trousers and bend over the barrel themselves.
I've seen pro players, high MMR players, bad players, and everything in between do this. I don't understand at all. I see it all the time (almost every other game in fact, whether it is LCS, my own Soloqueue, or streams), and I have literally never seen it do anything but get them killed more. Can anyone actually explain this at all?
On a different note, Diamondprox (sub for APEX right now) has been rushing GA as a second item after Bloodrazer on Kindred in his last 10 games or so this patch. Kind of makes sense, makes you tanky as hell when you think about it; your W will heal you probably 3 times in any all in skirmish or fight, then you get the heal from R. Level 6 thats a solid (54*3+200)=362. If they have a comp with a good damage split, I don't think there is a single item in the game for kindred that makes you tankier than just GA. Maybe Zz'Rot? I'm curious to try it out some, when Kindred escapes the ban phase that is. <_<
Speaking of Zz'Rot, how good is the movespeed passive from the raptor cloak? 1200 gold for 45 armor and tower dive speed actually sounds pretty attractive.
link diamonds op.gg?
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On June 07 2016 06:57 MuddyJam wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2016 00:53 iCanada wrote: Why the hell do ADC's who are getting wrecked buy Cull? What is the thought process? "hey I am losing lane better spend some of my gold on combat inefficient items"?
I just straight up don't understand. Do all ADC players just think they are the best player in the world and they will just outplay the other guy currently beating them when they buy poor combat items and the other guy has more gold spent on actual combat items? Like a solo lane getting wrecked buys extra Doran items (Hell, Faker bought 3 doran rings on Anivia just a few hours ago in LCK) to stop the bleeding. A jungler getting wrecked in 2v2s buys green smite and makes sure he just doesn't fight any situation where it isn't advantageous. ADC players just like drop their trousers and bend over the barrel themselves.
I've seen pro players, high MMR players, bad players, and everything in between do this. I don't understand at all. I see it all the time (almost every other game in fact, whether it is LCS, my own Soloqueue, or streams), and I have literally never seen it do anything but get them killed more. Can anyone actually explain this at all?
On a different note, Diamondprox (sub for APEX right now) has been rushing GA as a second item after Bloodrazer on Kindred in his last few games this patch. Kind of makes sense, makes you tanky as hell when you think about it; your W will heal you probably 3 times in any all in skirmish or fight, then you get the heal from R. Level 6 thats a solid (54*3+200)=362. If they have a comp with a good damage split, I don't think there is a single item in the game for kindred that makes you tankier than just GA. Maybe Zz'Rot? I'm curious to try it out some, when Kindred escapes the ban phase that is. <_<
Speaking of Zz'Rot, how good is the movespeed passive from the raptor cloak? 1200 gold for 45 armor and tower dive speed actually sounds pretty attractive. link diamonds op.gg?
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=GMB Diamondprox
Played 6 games on Kindred today, tried it out. I think the GA rush makes quite a lot of sense if you have a squishy (like Assassin / duelist top, Ranged support, traditional midlaner) team, but if you have a bruiser-y (Swain, Vlad, Maokai, Alistar etc) team I think you just build damage.
That seems to be the way Diamond does is as well.
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he did it in one game that's not enough to all a pattern. i imagine it would be a if super ahead then you buy the insurance kind of a deal. In the one game he did buy it he was way ahead.
If you look at his kr id you don't see any of that
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He was equal with Contractz' Lee Sin till the 25 minute mark, and he bought the thing at the 14 minute mark... He also isn't even ahead of any of the solo laners or ADC's in gold till around the same time frame. Look
I just thought it was note worthy, 3 item kindred with GA+PD is pretty much a straight up bruiser. Relatively comparable eHP with a Reksai building either Warrior+2x Tank or Cinderhydra. Cinderhydra prolly is a bit tankier, but I think GA rush Kindred does way more damage than Cinderhydra Reksai.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I like it because it has massive synergy with Kindred's ult. One of the greatest dangers of Kindred is that you're always just one cc-chain away from being locked out of your R - GA prevents that and basically guarantees you'll get off your ult, either before or after your GA pops.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4mvto1/a_trick_i_just_found_to_detect_death_brushes/
Huh.
Leave it to BoxBox to discover random mechanics to abuse. That is actually huge. You can face check brushes in baron and be confident from like 1200 range away they not baiting in that brush. If LoL is still around in like 5 years, that will be BoxBox' legacy man.
On June 07 2016 13:34 GrandInquisitor wrote: I like it because it has massive synergy with Kindred's ult. One of the greatest dangers of Kindred is that you're always just one cc-chain away from being locked out of your R - GA prevents that and basically guarantees you'll get off your ult, either before or after your GA pops.
Yeah. I also think you give yourself more time to be useful in fights without having to snowball as much. I have to say, not sure if i like the changes in this patch cycle to Kindred. I'd have preferred if they moved some of her damage off the marks, not too them s much. Would make her a more consistent champion, which would be nice because she is kind of feast or famine right now.
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On June 07 2016 14:20 iCanada wrote:https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/4mvto1/a_trick_i_just_found_to_detect_death_brushes/Huh. Leave it to BoxBox to discover random mechanics to abuse. That is actually huge. You can face check brushes in baron and be confident from like 1200 range away they not baiting in that brush. If LoL is still around in like 5 years, that will be BoxBox' legacy man. Show nested quote +On June 07 2016 13:34 GrandInquisitor wrote: I like it because it has massive synergy with Kindred's ult. One of the greatest dangers of Kindred is that you're always just one cc-chain away from being locked out of your R - GA prevents that and basically guarantees you'll get off your ult, either before or after your GA pops. Yeah. I also think you give yourself more time to be useful in fights without having to snowball as much. I have to say, not sure if i like the changes in this patch cycle to Kindred. I'd have preferred if they moved some of her damage off the marks, not too them s much. Would make her a more consistent champion, which would be nice because she is kind of feast or famine right now. It's going to be very hard to abuse tbh. It looks like pathing doesn't chaange until you're within ~400-500 range of the bush, which is more or less the same as a ward. You're dead to a deathbush if you get that close as a non-tank.
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You can tell from the minimap that your pathing line isn't straight but curved slighty. You can see from a much higher range on the minimap. Depending on their champ spread from what I can tell you get minimum 700 range, if they have like Voli/Cho/Hec kind of champs its much much longer range (more like 1200) you can see on minimap.
I think it is a neat interaction. A tool to add to the toolbox anyway.
I don't think it makes facechecking any brush risk free in a hectic game, but like late game when your support gets caught warding baron you can at least make a more informed decision about if they on it or death brushing you. It also means nothing in soloqueue. You can ping the enemy jungler walking through 3 wards when you making a play other side of the map, people still die to the ganks sometimes. If you retreat pinged the brush even 1000 range away, you know Ashe baby is facechecking that shit anyway. Sad day.
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Well, looks like I'm in the client update alpha.
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Me too. Sucks right now you can only do normal blind picks on it.
Seems pretty hype otherwise. Surprisingly I didn't really find any huge bugs. I guess 90% of the features not enabled.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/state-season-mid-season-followup
An interesting view into where the game is going over the next few patches.
Personally I think that Cloud Dragon, even if it is having some noticeable effect on winrate, should be changed, if only because it is completely unnoticeable. No one at any point ever says "Man I can really feel the effects of that Cloud Dragon". I wouldn't mind if they collapsed it all into Fire + Earth, honestly.
Also, man, I wish other games would do stuff like this. Imagine if Blizzard did stuff like this for Hearthstone. Shit they don't even put out patch notes for Overwatch.
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On June 09 2016 03:30 GrandInquisitor wrote:http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/state-season-mid-season-followupAn interesting view into where the game is going over the next few patches. Personally I think that Cloud Dragon, even if it is having some noticeable effect on winrate, should be changed, if only because it is completely unnoticeable. No one at any point ever says "Man I can really feel the effects of that Cloud Dragon". I wouldn't mind if they collapsed it all into Fire + Earth, honestly. Also, man, I wish other games would do stuff like this. Imagine if Blizzard did stuff like this for Hearthstone. Shit they don't even put out patch notes for Overwatch. I think the SC2 feedback updates are great.
This is my favourite cloud dragon stat.
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On June 09 2016 03:30 GrandInquisitor wrote:http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/state-season-mid-season-followupAn interesting view into where the game is going over the next few patches. Personally I think that Cloud Dragon, even if it is having some noticeable effect on winrate, should be changed, if only because it is completely unnoticeable. No one at any point ever says "Man I can really feel the effects of that Cloud Dragon". I wouldn't mind if they collapsed it all into Fire + Earth, honestly. Also, man, I wish other games would do stuff like this. Imagine if Blizzard did stuff like this for Hearthstone. Shit they don't even put out patch notes for Overwatch.
Have you ever had 2 cloud drakes?
Its pretty noticable, imo. 1 not really, but 2 you just feel amazingly fast.
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On June 09 2016 03:30 GrandInquisitor wrote:http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/state-season-mid-season-followupAn interesting view into where the game is going over the next few patches. Personally I think that Cloud Dragon, even if it is having some noticeable effect on winrate, should be changed, if only because it is completely unnoticeable. No one at any point ever says "Man I can really feel the effects of that Cloud Dragon". I wouldn't mind if they collapsed it all into Fire + Earth, honestly. Also, man, I wish other games would do stuff like this. Imagine if Blizzard did stuff like this for Hearthstone. Shit they don't even put out patch notes for Overwatch. "We changed Janna's passive because it's super powerful but noone really takes notice."
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On June 09 2016 03:41 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 03:30 GrandInquisitor wrote:http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/state-season-mid-season-followupAn interesting view into where the game is going over the next few patches. Personally I think that Cloud Dragon, even if it is having some noticeable effect on winrate, should be changed, if only because it is completely unnoticeable. No one at any point ever says "Man I can really feel the effects of that Cloud Dragon". I wouldn't mind if they collapsed it all into Fire + Earth, honestly. Also, man, I wish other games would do stuff like this. Imagine if Blizzard did stuff like this for Hearthstone. Shit they don't even put out patch notes for Overwatch. Have you ever had 2 cloud drakes? Its pretty noticable, imo. 1 not really, but 2 you just feel amazingly fast.
But its also deceptive because its out of combat speed, like mobi boots, so you are mentally tricked by it as well.
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Riot person wrote:
Some of the kit changes look pretty successful so far (e.g. Malz passive creating a healthier playstyle or Zyra capturing more of a plant queen feel).
6.12 Changes to a few champions, items and systems on ARAM.
6.14 - 6.15 Potentially some ARAM followup work too, depending on whether we see any major emergent issues after the 6.12 changes.
I'm silently screaming inside to these. Healthier playstyle for Malz. What? And as if there were anything wrong with how Zyra felt before. I wish Rioters would sit down and play against Zyra and Illaoi and see how much fun playing against them as a melee is. Because unless you delete them, you basically sit there and take their crap and go "well, wonder what the hell I'm supposed to do."
They also completely broke ARAM in the last 3-4 patches. All the new mage kits tend to just be completely broken in one aspect or another, playing against them in a 5v5 for a prolonged period of time is not fun and also makes rolling way more about power rolls and less about playing your damn champion well. The keystone masteries already had it going that direction too, since poke mages get a ridiculous amount of utility from deathfire touch and thunderlord's before a melee ever gets to use anything.
I guess their philosophy is that ARAM is a joke mode, so we're completely okay breaking both its knees, bashing its skull in, and then trying to use bandages to try to fix the bloodied corpse.
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You pick anything with mobility or the ability to poke/farm at range and you stop caring about Illaoi. Also works if you can just shove (she's got 0 gank-assist, post-6 she'd probably rather get ganked even without her jungler nearby once she's set up). Her animations are so slow that something like Fizz's Q lets you walk up to her, dash and dodge her Q by getting in her back before it slams, if you react when you see her starting the animation.
Sure if you're Wukong you're going to get shat on (and I assume his clone gives her ult another tentacle too), but if you're Riven, Yasuo, or champions with multiple sources of damage like Darius (his passive dicks her E), or if you can jump her as soon as she misses a Q/E, she's not that big of a threat.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I play a lot of ARAM and didn't notice any Mark/Dash changes. The wiki says they haven't been changed since 5.10.
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On June 09 2016 04:50 GrandInquisitor wrote: I play a lot of ARAM and didn't notice any Mark/Dash changes. The wiki says they haven't been changed since 5.10.
I suppose this might just be in my head. I have had issues with how the snowball animates for several patches. It would skip frames very noticeably, might just completely be fooling me because that issue went away recently. I'm probably just being irrational on this count given the other comments about Malzahar/Zyra making my blood boil.
I'm aware of Illaio's weaknesses, but the rising prevalence of champions that just completely screw with immobile melee champions is annoying. Gangplank is another example- what do you do against his barrels as a melee? If your teammates aren't there, you just kind of twiddle your thumbs because you can't even get close to him if he already had time to setup, or you just shrug your shoulders and accept the damage you're going to likely take. It is not even about the mechanic itself, it is more about the rate of occurrence. Gangplank's barrels became more limited, whereas Zyra/Illaio recently had the frequency of plants/tentacles go through the roof.
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Illaoi looks to be the ultimate noob crushing top laner right now. I had a game were she got first blood, and then proceeded to 1vs2 Eve and Olaf multiple times. Then she TPed bot lane and 1vs3ed Eve, Cait and Braum. If she hits her abilities, especially her ultimate on multiple people, you're in for a world of hurt. Can legit blow up squishies when fed, she could do it before but not to this degree.
They also completely broke ARAM in the last 3-4 patches. All the new mage kits tend to just be completely broken in one aspect or another, playing against them in a 5v5 for a prolonged period of time is not fun and also makes rolling way more about power rolls and less about playing your damn champion well. The keystone masteries already had it going that direction too, since poke mages get a ridiculous amount of utility from deathfire touch and thunderlord's before a melee ever gets to use anything.
What changes broke ARAM. The game mode is so random, most games favor one team anyway. Tbh I find hard engage tank comps to be more broken than endless poke mages, because after a certain point they just start to steamroll since they're so tanky and murder squishies in melee. Doesn't matter if Lux is doing a lot of poke damage, once you;re 15 minutes into the game tank Sion will bulldozer you down. I've had games playing Kog Maw doing 50% more damage than the closest enemy damage dealer, but it didn't matter because they had Sion/J4/Lulu ult/Kata, I didn't live a single team fight I didn't have flash.
Snowball is stupidly OP in ARAM on quite a few bruisers, that keeps poke mages from running rampant.
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Tbh i find aram is most often determined by the team with the fewest terrible builds :^)
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Today I had the greatest ragelord on my team. He threw a tantrum about me not throwing a tantrum when he stole a penta kill from me. That's some next level anger issues.
Disintegration Ray of the Sad Mummy is pretty disgusting. :D
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I wouldn't call that QQ, he just thinks it's funny. And Illaoi crushes people who have to stay on her to fight her (and can't bruteforce, like Darius can). Pantheon jungle isn't an issue as long as you position decently, for example—which can mean way at the front but far enough from the river that you can retreat to a couple tentacles on the wall if he comes. No need to reach your tower, just walk to the tentacles, he has to walk up to you to do anything so it's an easy E if you anticipate, and then if it's post-6 it's pretty much a crushing 1v2.
She depends both on the match-up (Nidalee or Kennen are excruciating for example) and on your opponent. Sure if he sits on his ass and doesn't try to dodge you'll crush him, but if he's got a mobile/fast champion and actually tries to do things you don't have much control on the lane at all. Fwiw Rammus beats her too because activating W cuts a lot of her burst, and between his passive and her garbage base AS he can just walk up and manfight her early on, there's nothing she can do.
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I think this, http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/shopkeepers-inn/305322-the-locicero-memorial-for-general-awesomeness
would have been a better place to post it. I was first chuckling and impressed by his flash/ignite being faster than my mid air Q. The proceding spam about not wanting to win or tryharding enough in ranked to care about kills got me laughing.
He had been flaming everyone in the game from when the enemy placed a ward to check where our jungler started. He was quite... innovative in his chats so I think he was sorta making a parody of true ragelords. Pretty sure any Rioter looking at his reports, if it would ever get to that, would be laughing at some of his lines.
"I hope you start smoking so you can actually get cancer" was one of his better.
On June 09 2016 05:33 Slusher wrote: Tbh i find aram is most often determined by the team with the fewest terrible builds :^) I find it usually to be who have the most tanks, unless you have some sort of insane team that can win before they become immortal. That or of course a good Vayne+Protect Vayne champs.
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those implied buffs to velkoz coming soon seem like overkill. I feel he is just going to pop onto pro scene and do busted damage.
No idea what the minor support changes would be. Like mechanically support has the lest "fun" in it. the utility is in heals/shields/buff which don't feel as impactful to avg joe. \been thinking recently support is just busted which is why nobody plays it. Any other role if your good you gets the kills and nobody questions that you carried and you won lane. Generally as support the smuck bronze/silver/gold adc will congratulate himself or can undo your work. After laning your are even less flashy. There is a reason hook champions are played a lot because people can point to a move they made. Just wondering what people opinions are like if support lacks wide reaching mechanics that are fun
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I think support is mechanically very satisfying. I think good thresh play is like as mechanically impressive as it gets. Same with new Taric and Bard.
Hell even good Janna / Ali / Braum play requires solid game knowledge and mechanical proficiency. Shielding the right targets at the right times, stuffing key skill shots and initiations. As a player who mostly played melee champs I started playing support in S5 just from getting dicked on mechanically by real good supports. A good Janna makes so many champs useless it's disgusting. This requires game knowledge, situational awareness, and very good twitch gameplay and accuracy.
In my opinion it's real real rewarding. Way more rewarding and imo difficult than pulling off high level insec plays and shit. Maybe it's just because I've played probably 500 lee sin games over the years and much less Janna... but I think it's more rewarding. Less zomg front page on reddit. Our even noticed in Game (100% that adc popping off lol) but you have so much outplay potential and it is pretty amazing when you do it right.
Good Janna players can make even Lee's and Nids who land all their Q's look like compete boosted animals. If you don't enjoy doing that then I guess support isn't your thing, but personally feels quite good to me.
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On June 09 2016 10:43 MuddyJam wrote: those implied buffs to velkoz coming soon seem like overkill. I feel he is just going to pop onto pro scene and do busted damage.
No idea what the minor support changes would be. Like mechanically support has the lest "fun" in it. the utility is in heals/shields/buff which don't feel as impactful to avg joe. \been thinking recently support is just busted which is why nobody plays it. Any other role if your good you gets the kills and nobody questions that you carried and you won lane. Generally as support the smuck bronze/silver/gold adc will congratulate himself or can undo your work. After laning your are even less flashy. There is a reason hook champions are played a lot because people can point to a move they made. Just wondering what people opinions are like if support lacks wide reaching mechanics that are fun
Obligatory images from a support, + Show Spoiler +
Any smuck player will congratulate himself or undo your work regardless of role. Most noticable for supports and junglers since, their job is to well... Help their team members so their efforts is a team effort and thus someone can ignore their work as opposed to solokills where it truely is their own work.
I dont think supports lack mechanical or flashy plays. The only supports without flashy plays are pretty much Soraka and Trundle, Trundle has it the worst since it can be hard to see just how big of an impact his ultimate has compared to Soraka saving your behind over and over again. That's not to say they can't do anything flash (full team silence, a 6 root from one of those Pillar'ed into a wall) but it's nothing compared to something like Thresh or Bard.
I think the reason supporting is relatively unpopular is because players find getting +1 on their kill score more fun than on their assist score. That combined with being in a duo lane, because everyone are Faker-senpai's alterego and thus can always outplay on their own.
The added immensely increased gold income for supports some years ago made supports much more popular (before I could go weeks without anyone else wanting it). If Riot would add assist streak bonus back in I think support would see a rise in popularity again, the brief period of time it was there supports could occasionally end up with as much or more gold than laners it was more or less a 50-50 calling support in champion select in the few patches assist streak had a high value.
I think support is currently is in a good spot, if Riot really really really wants to make it more popular they just need to increase gold income, ie put the old assist streaks values back in.
Strangely enough I found the periode of time where full build for support was Shurelia and Mobis the most fun, "you have nothing, make it work".
tl;dr People want to buy Manolo shoes but can only afford Gucci when playing support.
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The biggest problem with support right now isn't the role itself, but opening yourself up to the role as a possibility gives you a sub 20% chance of getting your main role.
It would 100% be my secondary role if it was 50/50 with mid, but I think they said the actual statistic in that roundtable video they did was 16% main role when sup secondary. (which is higher then I would have guessed based on anecdotal experience)
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On June 09 2016 15:36 Slusher wrote: The biggest problem with support right now isn't the role itself, but opening yourself up to the role as a possibility gives you a sub 20% chance of getting your main role.
It would 100% be my secondary role if it was 50/50 with mid, but I think they said the actual statistic in that roundtable video they did was 16% main role when sup secondary. (which is higher then I would have guessed based on anecdotal experience) Definitely. I'd be happy even if it was like 40/60 not support-support. But because I can go 10 games without getting my supposed primary role, I'll sometimes opt out of support with one role I don't play much simply for a breath of fresh air.
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Don't give supports more gold, give them decent items for the budget so they can still build stuff without needing inflated gold sources or to end up with a deathcap and 300 AP. That's what made Shurelya's good: sure it wasn't a crapton of stats and didn't turn you into a carry, but for a small amount of gold you had relevant stats and excellent utility through the active. Reduce the stats on Glory then make it cost like 2k gold with a smooth build path, or something along these lines.
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@Jek
yeah I guess they do have nicer champs than they used to. Worth noting thresh/bard/braum are the newest supports released. But it doesn't change that if your not high elo then support doesn't exist as is more of a team mascot that race each other to go 0/10. Like if you are a smuck player it makes no sense to ever go support. Dunno just feel support needs a new or added mechanic. Kinda like how tp makes top lane more interesting. Riot changed jungle heavily with the smite changes maybe they need a support change.
Point is if your a bad player you don't have much of a feedback loop to what is good play. If you a solo lane you can get kills/towers etc. If jungle you can know ganks are good. As bad support its hard for a new player to get feedback on if your warding is good. And the adc at low lvls can do some very wild things which can make it impossible to have any consistency to then learn the game.
Also for learning its good to have these closed feedback loops. If i play cs:go I can see, o I missed alot there I can aim better and its very immediate. If you play most roles in lol you can see if you miss cs and now you can work on that.
Remark: I am not claiming - support takes no skill - you can't roflstomp solo que as support
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I threw this idea in the rip solo q thread, but rather than change the support position I think they should try to find a way for people who are ok with supporting to support without locking out their main role. The idea that I threw out was opening up a currency similar to the aram rerolls, any time you play support you get a 'priority token' to get a priority q time for your primary role, give it a cap of 2, maybe 3 with a decay time of 24hrs/token.
For me personally this idea would be perfect, however I do recognize that it is abusable. It will encourage people who don't want to support to pick it simply for the token, leading to troll picks, poor strategical roam timings (read:24/7) or just simply taking their support games less seriously.
I think changing support (in response to bottleneck issues in team builder) before addressing the fact that there are a lot of players who select their secondary as a way to optimize % chance at primary as opposed to what they enjoy playing 2nd most is actually just stupid, and lacking forethought.
I also think the feedback thing makes sense but at the same time it's a cop out, I mean how often do you hear players who aren't climbing (but are trying) complain that they can't figure out why? I feel like the #1 complaint is they don't know why they aren't winning. (blaming teammates counts here, because if thats the "only reason" they don't know why they are losing)
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On June 09 2016 20:26 Slusher wrote: I also think the feedback thing makes sense but at the same time it's a cop out, I mean how often do you hear players who aren't climbing (but are trying) complain that they can't figure out why? I feel like the #1 complaint is they don't know why they aren't winning. (blaming teammates counts here, because if thats the "only reason" they don't know why they are losing)
Pro tip for life right there if you replace climbing with getting better.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On June 09 2016 17:16 Alaric wrote: Don't give supports more gold, give them decent items for the budget so they can still build stuff without needing inflated gold sources or to end up with a deathcap and 300 AP. That's what made Shurelya's good: sure it wasn't a crapton of stats and didn't turn you into a carry, but for a small amount of gold you had relevant stats and excellent utility through the active. Reduce the stats on Glory then make it cost like 2k gold with a smooth build path, or something along these lines. Yeah, thats what made shurelyas good and thats what made teams buy 3 shurelyas in 1 game
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That's because it appealed to both tanks (some of which are supports) and caster-oriented supports, with HP/CDR/mp5 in a neat package. I guess I should have said "stats relevant to supports", kinda how HoG and philostone were prevalent but noone picked up Kage's lucky pick. If the item gives good stats for the cost but doesn't cost that much, once the enemy team gets to ~3 items they'll be starting to have stronger stats because they use their slots better (of course trinkets half-invalidates this because a ward slot isn't a thing anymore).
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
What stats are relevant to supports and not relevant to anyone else if you want slot efficiency to kick in time you need to make those "op" support items cost like 700-800 gold imo and even then top laners and junglers will probably pick them up
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Sad as it is, the answer may have to come through summoner spell reworks. Just like how the jungle items are tied to smite, you might just need support items tied to a summoner spell that no other lane really wants to take (maybe Exhaust, though lots of mid laners run Exhaust). It wouldn't shock me if in Season 7 or 8 the game simply defines your role by your first summoner spell. Smite = Jungle; Heal = ADC; Exhaust = Support; Teleport/Ignite = Top/Mid. That's sort of what happens right now anyway, the occasional Ignite Support / Exhaust Mid notwithstanding.
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You can carry with support at any elo, pick carry supports in lower elos if you feel you have no impact/don't trust your ADC. Someone like Karma, Brand, Zyra are dope when played properly, you can snowball so hard if the opponent has no clue how to lane against them. It's not uncommon for Brand and Zyra support to have most damage in the game.
Support itemization is good right now. People brought it up already, but items in S2 for supports were atrocious, Righteous Glory and yellow Supp item are much, much better designed than something like Shurelyas, from build path to stats.
What stats are relevant to supports and not relevant to anyone else
Items with mana regen and CD but no offensive stats for Janna and friends. Which we kind of already have in the form of Talisman and Mikaels. But the same doesn't apply to tanky initiators like Braum or Leona, those champs like to build tank items, and I can't really see items being designed for them that would not be good for tanks as well.
Dunno why you think supports are not in a good state, I find them to be doing great. Build paths are quite variable, if played right you can have a big impact on the game, and viability is diverse. I do have to agree though that support in team builder is disgusting, I actually used to play support as my second role but I don't want to play it 9/10 games. Now I just queue ADC/mid, win 60% of my ADC games and ~45% of my mid games because I suck at the role compared to my MMR and get by with that, with occasional support sprees.
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On June 09 2016 23:48 DarkCore wrote: You can carry with support at any elo, pick carry supports in lower elos if you feel you have no impact/don't trust your ADC. Someone like Karma, Brand, Zyra are dope when played properly, you can snowball so hard if the opponent has no clue how to lane against them. It's not uncommon for Brand and Zyra support to have most damage in the game. .
Nobody in this whole thread has claimed you can't carry as support. Nobody is claiming you can't or its hard to get out of low elo if you are support. What i am arguing is from a game design standpoint is supports design is terrible. Please don't derail discussion, if you don't understand them then ask.
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How come Zyra, Karma, etc. are becoming popular now over Braum, Alistar, etc.? Sure tank itemisation took hits but that only marginally affected tank supports.
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On June 10 2016 00:54 Alaric wrote: How come Zyra, Karma, etc. are becoming popular now over Braum, Alistar, etc.? Sure tank itemisation took hits but that only marginally affected tank supports. Zyra's rework was a massive buff, massive as in gigantic. She was "not good but ok" before, now she's "good", her ability to set up dragon/baron fights by just derping around the area to spawn a host of seeds is not to be underestimated (Illaoi can do something similar).
Karma I think, is because we now have two Juggernauts++ aka Swain and Vladimir.
On June 09 2016 19:52 MuddyJam wrote: Point is if your a bad player you don't have much of a feedback loop to what is good play. If you a solo lane you can get kills/towers etc. If jungle you can know ganks are good. As bad support its hard for a new player to get feedback on if your warding is good. And the adc at low lvls can do some very wild things which can make it impossible to have any consistency to then learn the game.
All new players regardless of role are bad at warding. :^)
Kidding aside, warding is something you really just have to learn from experience, where/when/how you ward depends almost entirely on team comps how you ward vs a Shaco is completely different than from say an Elise. There is of course some pretty standard timings and techniques you need to know.
In lower levels warding shouldnt really be your priority to master, I know I sound as a condescending prick but at this level players dont watch the map often enough. Learning how to use the champions kit properly should take priority, you will win more games by keeping your carries safe, and even more with proper engages, than placing wards that's not going to be used (this even holds true for low diamond mmr).
The "adc do wild things" goes both ways, a bad support makes it harder for an adc to learn too. The lesson to learn in these cases is "life is precious, dont commit suicide too".
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And zyra is really fun to play as a support. You feel like you can have a real impact from the damage perspective while still having the CC with snare and slows.
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On June 10 2016 00:54 Alaric wrote: How come Zyra, Karma, etc. are becoming popular now over Braum, Alistar, etc.? Sure tank itemisation took hits but that only marginally affected tank supports. People are starting to realize how hilarious mantra E is with censor?
Also zyra got super buffed so it's legit hard for a melee support to stay in lane against her. And she has disengage to boot so you can't even engage into her later.
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On June 09 2016 19:52 MuddyJam wrote: @Jek
yeah I guess they do have nicer champs than they used to. Worth noting thresh/bard/braum are the newest supports released. But it doesn't change that if your not high elo then support doesn't exist as is more of a team mascot that race each other to go 0/10. Like if you are a smuck player it makes no sense to ever go support. Dunno just feel support needs a new or added mechanic. Kinda like how tp makes top lane more interesting. Riot changed jungle heavily with the smite changes maybe they need a support change.
Point is if your a bad player you don't have much of a feedback loop to what is good play. If you a solo lane you can get kills/towers etc. If jungle you can know ganks are good. As bad support its hard for a new player to get feedback on if your warding is good. And the adc at low lvls can do some very wild things which can make it impossible to have any consistency to then learn the game.
Also for learning its good to have these closed feedback loops. If i play cs:go I can see, o I missed alot there I can aim better and its very immediate. If you play most roles in lol you can see if you miss cs and now you can work on that.
Remark: I am not claiming - support takes no skill - you can't roflstomp solo que as support
I don't think this is true. I mean, everyone pretty much has to ask them self exactly the same questions everyone else has to.
Am [are] I [my lanes / my ADC] farming well? Why not? Am I playing the matchup properly? Am I putting out enough pressure to allow them to farm safely? What can I do differently?
Are people dying to Ganks? Why? Did you see it coming? If no your warding sucked. If you saw it coming and still died, what did you do wrong that you could have done differently so you didn't die? What can I do differently?
Are you guys taking objectives? Why why not? Did you have the appropriate vision? What can I do differently?
Are you winning teamfights? Why or why not? Should you have tried to team fight with your comp in the first place? What can I do differently?
Did you gank? Should you have ganked? Was it successful? Why or why not? What can I do differently
Are you properly enabling whomever on your team to carry you? Are you identifying who exactly is in a position to carry you?
Support literally has all the same feedback loops ADC, Mid, Top, and Jungle have.
On June 09 2016 23:00 Scip wrote: What stats are relevant to supports and not relevant to anyone else if you want slot efficiency to kick in time you need to make those "op" support items cost like 700-800 gold imo and even then top laners and junglers will probably pick them up
I think you can make them a little more expensive that that. Supports all the time get like Sightstone + Support Item + Locket.
The key is just having a contrast between slot efficiency and gold efficiency. You are stronger early with gold efficient items, but after one or maybe 2 big slot efficient items you just way stronger.
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warding is such a small part of playing support jesus
support is just slightly less gold/xp and high utility champions, they can snowball pretty fucking hard because they aren't bound to farming lanes
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On June 10 2016 01:35 Jek wrote: All new players regardless of role are bad at warding. :^)
Kidding aside, warding is something you really just have to learn from experience, where/when/how you ward depends almost entirely on team comps how you ward vs a Shaco is completely different than from say an Elise. There is of course some pretty standard timings and techniques you need to know.
In lower levels warding shouldnt really be your priority to master, I know I sound as a condescending prick but at this level players dont watch the map often enough. Learning how to use the champions kit properly should take priority, you will win more games by keeping your carries safe, and even more with proper engages, than placing wards that's not going to be used (this even holds true for low diamond mmr).
The "adc do wild things" goes both ways, a bad support makes it harder for an adc to learn too. The lesson to learn in these cases is "life is precious, dont commit suicide too".
I completely agree with you on warding and to focus on champions kit. Maybe this is the way you have to go with supports is you give them more interesting kits. Like people do like bard/thresh/braum pretty well who all have pretty nice mechanics. never played bard but I imagine bards ult is fun. thresh has lantern which feels nice to use and save people and has a hook. Braum feels mainly (for want of a better word) to block projectiles. Like tanking the culling and taking no damage feels really rewarding.
Laning 2v2 bot is probably not helped by the community being toxic in general so when you pair two people who don't know what they are doing its easy to blame each other. Which again is not helped by high variance in ability of the partner and often a wide range of champions played.
edit @iCandada While your right the loops I was thinking of immediate ones like "i should of flashed" "i fail flashed" "I missed my skillshot". Things like gank timings and having the lane positioned badly and roaming are not trivial things.
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On June 09 2016 23:42 GrandInquisitor wrote: Sad as it is, the answer may have to come through summoner spell reworks. Just like how the jungle items are tied to smite, you might just need support items tied to a summoner spell that no other lane really wants to take (maybe Exhaust, though lots of mid laners run Exhaust). It wouldn't shock me if in Season 7 or 8 the game simply defines your role by your first summoner spell. Smite = Jungle; Heal = ADC; Exhaust = Support; Teleport/Ignite = Top/Mid. That's sort of what happens right now anyway, the occasional Ignite Support / Exhaust Mid notwithstanding. mid needs exhaust to deal with stuff like fizz and diana right now
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On June 10 2016 02:19 Slayer91 wrote: warding is such a small part of playing support jesus
support is just slightly less gold/xp and high utility champions, they can snowball pretty fucking hard because they aren't bound to farming lanes
I agree 100%. Warding is on everyone with the current vision system anyway.
I mean warding is a big deal, but its not something that one dude is ever going to "carry". If you are the only person on your team warding, you gonna have shit vision. If no one else is buying pinks, you gonna have shit vision, and shit vision control of the enemy team.
I think a lot of low ELO or inexperienced supports would be better off just buying Mejai's instead of SS and snowballing, and just learning where / how to ward with their green trinket. The vision you get from having 2 green trinkets vs having a sightstone and Blue & red trinkets is effectively the same. And if they aren't warding well anyway you don't really need a red trinket.
Support right now is pretty much running around and enabling. Its like playing Maokai jungle back in the day gold gen stacking and when all your camps belonged to your mid laner who was racing to try and reach the most CS at 20 minutes with every other mid laner ever. Just usually you have to camp bot lane for most of the game so your ADC doesn't ragequit. LOL. (Although, thats pretty much every position right now, LOL. Number of times I've seen an ignite top laner get raged out when the other guy TP's bot once is too damn high. poor guy is like shitting on his lane and taking towers usually too. Ah Platinum.... Everyone thinks they Faker but plays like the bronze baddies we are and the rage ensues)
On June 10 2016 02:24 MuddyJam wrote: edit @iCandada While your right the loops I was thinking of immediate ones like "i should of flashed" "i fail flashed" "I missed my skillshot". Things like gank timings and having the lane positioned badly and roaming are not trivial things.
I mean... Support players have skillshots and flash too... I don't understand your point.
Its fine if you don't like playing support, but stop trying to make up broad overarching theories on why people don't play support. Most people just have this overwhelming urge to be the one killing things. That is why people play garbage like Yasuo top or Vayne that gets run over and require things to go perfectly and then feed horribly when they could have just pick Maokai or Sivir and get hard carried for being around and useful.
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On June 10 2016 03:19 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2016 02:24 MuddyJam wrote: edit @iCandada While your right the loops I was thinking of immediate ones like "i should of flashed" "i fail flashed" "I missed my skillshot". Things like gank timings and having the lane positioned badly and roaming are not trivial things. I mean... Support players have skillshots and flash too... I don't understand your point. Its fine if you don't like playing support, but stop trying to make up broad overarching theories on why people don't play support. Most people just have this overwhelming urge to be the one killing things. That is why people play garbage like Yasuo top or Vayne and then feed horribly when they could just pick Maokai or Sivir and get hard carried for being around and useful.
that would be because I was wrong on the closed loops thing . I'm theorising why support is not popular. It has never been popular. Its no different to wondering what makes video game A a good one and why people don't enjoy playing game B.
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On June 09 2016 23:48 DarkCore wrote:You can carry with support at any elo, pick carry supports in lower elos if you feel you have no impact/don't trust your ADC. Someone like Karma, Brand, Zyra are dope when played properly, you can snowball so hard if the opponent has no clue how to lane against them. It's not uncommon for Brand and Zyra support to have most damage in the game. Support itemization is good right now. People brought it up already, but items in S2 for supports were atrocious, Righteous Glory and yellow Supp item are much, much better designed than something like Shurelyas, from build path to stats.Items with mana regen and CD but no offensive stats for Janna and friends. Which we kind of already have in the form of Talisman and Mikaels. But the same doesn't apply to tanky initiators like Braum or Leona, those champs like to build tank items, and I can't really see items being designed for them that would not be good for tanks as well. Dunno why you think supports are not in a good state, I find them to be doing great. Build paths are quite variable, if played right you can have a big impact on the game, and viability is diverse. I do have to agree though that support in team builder is disgusting, I actually used to play support as my second role but I don't want to play it 9/10 games. Now I just queue ADC/mid, win 60% of my ADC games and ~45% of my mid games because I suck at the role compared to my MMR and get by with that, with occasional support sprees.
What? Shurelias is arguably the best build order, stats, and active combination on an item since the brokenness of S1 and beta nonsense.
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Support is not popular because you don't get kills and if you do people get mad at you. Therefore score line not as impressive. Also people think it's hard to carry from support and since everyone falsely believes they are better then everyone at there Eli and teammates are the reason they don't want to play a roll that they also falsey believe is even more reliant on teammates.
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Yeah.
Like I said, its the same reason people play garbage like Yasuo and Vayne. They'd rather hard carry 1 game out of 5, be genuinely a non-factor in one other win then lose the remaining three games than just generally be useful and win 3 games out of 5.
Ironically I think most of those champs are actually more team reliant than the average champ because you need your team to draft you enablers and to support you through the moments where you aren't that strong.
Or instead of Vayne you could pick Sivir and just be strong and useful (waveclear, ult engage, Spellshield) all the time no matter what, even if you some reason you losing lane hard and are hung out to dry, while having a similarly strong if not stronger late game. But Vayne's strength is the obvious shredding and flashy outplays, where as Sivirs strength is pressing the go button and sneakily doing damage to things the player isn't paying attention to with Boomerang Blade crits.
It is silly, imo.
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Well, I think Sivir is really fun. She's like the Olaf of botlane.
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On June 10 2016 03:25 MuddyJam wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2016 03:19 iCanada wrote:On June 10 2016 02:24 MuddyJam wrote: edit @iCandada While your right the loops I was thinking of immediate ones like "i should of flashed" "i fail flashed" "I missed my skillshot". Things like gank timings and having the lane positioned badly and roaming are not trivial things. I mean... Support players have skillshots and flash too... I don't understand your point. Its fine if you don't like playing support, but stop trying to make up broad overarching theories on why people don't play support. Most people just have this overwhelming urge to be the one killing things. That is why people play garbage like Yasuo top or Vayne and then feed horribly when they could just pick Maokai or Sivir and get hard carried for being around and useful. that would be because I was wrong on the closed loops thing . I'm theorising why support is not popular. It has never been popular. Its no different to wondering what makes video game A a good one and why people don't enjoy playing game B.
Support is not popular because people like to do damage. Its the same reason why lots of people play carry tops even when tanks were super strong. Its the same reason why people play Yasuo and Vayne even though they suck on those champions and those champions kinda suck(in most compositions).
Secondary considerations might be a more concrete evaluation of performance. They can see they did well when they have high CS and high kills. But you can't always see that on support. They can check how they're doing against the competition by looking at the scoreboard. Its a lot harder to do that on support even if you enable every play.
You really can't make support more rewarding to those people without basically breaking the game. Which is fine for me. I main support and am quite happy with it (and my short queue times trololol). But then again, i was happy with it in the "ward bitch" era because well, i was really good at putting up Christmas lights and this made climbing easy.
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I actually really liked supports before the gold income too.
I remember building just wards and 3 dorans items and just shitting on item and a half ADC's with Lulu when she first came out. Man Lulu did so much damage back then.
If you actually just didn't troll and bought 48327432 wards it was so easy to climb in those days.
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that and running in 4 people getting exhausted and dying every teamfight
building no hp on irelia didn't make sense either its not cost efficient at all and you don't need max cdr to die in 4 seconds
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On June 10 2016 03:58 iCanada wrote: But Vayne's strength is the obvious shredding and flashy outplays
To me the biggest strength of Vayne is how she handcuffs the opposing support to lane. (Although i know this wasn't your point )
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The biggest strength of vayne is that when that fucking tank runs in your general direction you can right click him and actually do damage. Vayne is like the great equalizer for ad players who get tilted from getting killed by fucking everything all the time.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On June 10 2016 03:26 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 23:48 DarkCore wrote:You can carry with support at any elo, pick carry supports in lower elos if you feel you have no impact/don't trust your ADC. Someone like Karma, Brand, Zyra are dope when played properly, you can snowball so hard if the opponent has no clue how to lane against them. It's not uncommon for Brand and Zyra support to have most damage in the game. Support itemization is good right now. People brought it up already, but items in S2 for supports were atrocious, Righteous Glory and yellow Supp item are much, much better designed than something like Shurelyas, from build path to stats.What stats are relevant to supports and not relevant to anyone else Items with mana regen and CD but no offensive stats for Janna and friends. Which we kind of already have in the form of Talisman and Mikaels. But the same doesn't apply to tanky initiators like Braum or Leona, those champs like to build tank items, and I can't really see items being designed for them that would not be good for tanks as well. Dunno why you think supports are not in a good state, I find them to be doing great. Build paths are quite variable, if played right you can have a big impact on the game, and viability is diverse. I do have to agree though that support in team builder is disgusting, I actually used to play support as my second role but I don't want to play it 9/10 games. Now I just queue ADC/mid, win 60% of my ADC games and ~45% of my mid games because I suck at the role compared to my MMR and get by with that, with occasional support sprees. What? Shurelias is arguably the best build order, stats, and active combination on an item since the brokenness of S1 and beta nonsense. Yeah, I mean thats why teams were getting them in amounts that would warrant a multibuy discount if it were virtually any real life object
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best item was always aegis anyway
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I'm curious about Ashe. This is a champ that according to champion.gg, is below average for an ADC in gold, kills, damage, and deaths (i.e., dies a lot): http://champion.gg/champion/Ashe
But she somehow still has an incredible winrate. Compare to say, MF, who has a high winrate but also high stats across the board, and it makes you ask, how is Ashe winning games? I guess it must just be her ult/utility?
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i think of ashe as a poor mans adc version of azir
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Ashe still has a use when behind, and that is hitting that ult and slowing everyone. She can die, but if she gets her ult off on the most fed carry then it breaks even. Although I too am surprised by the stats.
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On June 10 2016 13:17 GrandInquisitor wrote:I'm curious about Ashe. This is a champ that according to champion.gg, is below average for an ADC in gold, kills, damage, and deaths (i.e., dies a lot): http://champion.gg/champion/AsheBut she somehow still has an incredible winrate. Compare to say, MF, who has a high winrate but also high stats across the board, and it makes you ask, how is Ashe winning games? I guess it must just be her ult/utility? Most people are very bad at ad. The ad champs that have skills that make them useful without being good are the highest winrate. Shocked. I wonder why most people who aren't retards have been telling everyone to just play mf/ashe/sivir when they have to ad unless they are really good for years now...
The only exception is twitch. He is hard to play vs good teams but easy to abuse baddies with.
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On June 10 2016 10:11 St3MoR wrote: best item was always aegis anyway Runic Bulwark hype!
I miss the Bulwark + Locket jungle meta.
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On June 10 2016 18:45 Gahlo wrote:Runic Bulwark hype! I miss the Bulwark + Locket jungle meta.
Pssh. I miss the Double Gp5 jungle meta. Somehow Shyvana, Maokai, Lee Sin, Cho Gath, Skarner and Mundo could all coexist on a single patch.
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On June 10 2016 13:17 GrandInquisitor wrote:I'm curious about Ashe. This is a champ that according to champion.gg, is below average for an ADC in gold, kills, damage, and deaths (i.e., dies a lot): http://champion.gg/champion/AsheBut she somehow still has an incredible winrate. Compare to say, MF, who has a high winrate but also high stats across the board, and it makes you ask, how is Ashe winning games? I guess it must just be her ult/utility?
theres this spell called ashe arrow its pretty good
i mean she also does a ton of damage by just right clicking which makes her useful later even if she's feeding and on low gold
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yea that was cancer you were a template champ with locket+bulwark every game no matter what
but hey, at least your team was statisically stronger unless the other jungler did the same thing
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On June 11 2016 02:12 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2016 18:45 Gahlo wrote:On June 10 2016 10:11 St3MoR wrote: best item was always aegis anyway Runic Bulwark hype! I miss the Bulwark + Locket jungle meta. Pssh. I miss the Double Gp5 jungle meta. Somehow Shyvana, Maokai, Lee Sin, Cho Gath, Skarner and Mundo could all coexist on a single patch.
bc it was s2 and every1 was terrible. Gentleman agreements not to push towers or invade junglers. Also nobody had discovered how to insec people yet so lee sin was way weaker in teamfights.
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we talking the same season m5 dominated by invading jungle
not like anyone invades jungle now
laneswaps werent in yet so we didnt see laneswaps which leads to uber fast tower pushes but thats about it
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On June 11 2016 02:37 MuddyJam wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2016 02:12 cLutZ wrote:On June 10 2016 18:45 Gahlo wrote:On June 10 2016 10:11 St3MoR wrote: best item was always aegis anyway Runic Bulwark hype! I miss the Bulwark + Locket jungle meta. Pssh. I miss the Double Gp5 jungle meta. Somehow Shyvana, Maokai, Lee Sin, Cho Gath, Skarner and Mundo could all coexist on a single patch. bc it was s2 and every1 was terrible. Gentleman agreements not to push towers or invade junglers. Also nobody had discovered how to insec people yet so lee sin was way weaker in teamfights.
Nah, it was because the jungle was so weak you could clear it with boots + pots as any champion in the game (seriously, I did it with Katarina and Ashe). And there were no "jungle specific" items, where historically one of the items has been significantly better or worse than the others. When anyone can clear the jungle fairly quickly and healthily that is one less point of balance you have to weigh among champions.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On June 11 2016 02:15 Slayer91 wrote: yea that was cancer you were a template champ with locket+bulwark every game no matter what
but hey, at least your team was statisically stronger unless the other jungler did the same thing Locket is still freelo. It's less broken than Bulwark was, but eventually Riot's going to have to do something about it. Your team's just at a massive disadvantage if no one chooses to build an item that gives up to 350g worth of MR / 4600g worth of "HP".
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yea theres no reason for it to be in the game someone has this idea of "oh it benefits people who don't split push" or some bullshit like that but split pushing it pretty rare and when it happens its just tanks saving tp to get to the teamfight
you are basically giving passive power to other people instead of doing something fun its against all riots philosophies
like i guess it helps against assassins but they already get screwed when people group due to exhaust and cc and shit
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On June 11 2016 02:52 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2016 02:15 Slayer91 wrote: yea that was cancer you were a template champ with locket+bulwark every game no matter what
but hey, at least your team was statisically stronger unless the other jungler did the same thing Locket is still freelo. It's less broken than Bulwark was, but eventually Riot's going to have to do something about it. Your team's just at a massive disadvantage if no one chooses to build an item that gives up to 350g worth of MR / 4600g worth of "HP". Locket aura is 270g of MR and Shield is 920g of "HP" per person since 5.16.
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Kindred as a champ brings out the troll in so many junglers. LOL.
Just watched a third straight replay of Peanut dying in the river at level 3 for a scuttle crab. Apparently I'm not the only one who looks like a complete boosted animal in half my games on the champion while dying for marks I ran way the fuck out of my way for.
Sad thing is Kindred would probably be a pretty strong champion played with SoA control hard farm jungler style. I bet midgame with like 1 mark from a gank and mostly just farm she still is a hella strong duelist and skirmisher.
I'm just as bad as all the Yasuo and Vayne players I belittle. lol.
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On June 11 2016 02:39 Slayer91 wrote: we talking the same season m5 dominated by invading jungle
-exception that proves the rule -one result doesn't make a pattern
I look forward to your highlight real of oddone snoopeh and cloudtemplar being aggressive.
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yea they were all great junglers who stood the test of time and didnt get carried at all
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those poor wards were getting slaughtered by them, so aggresive!
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On June 11 2016 03:08 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2016 02:52 GrandInquisitor wrote:On June 11 2016 02:15 Slayer91 wrote: yea that was cancer you were a template champ with locket+bulwark every game no matter what
but hey, at least your team was statisically stronger unless the other jungler did the same thing Locket is still freelo. It's less broken than Bulwark was, but eventually Riot's going to have to do something about it. Your team's just at a massive disadvantage if no one chooses to build an item that gives up to 350g worth of MR / 4600g worth of "HP". Locket aura is 270g of MR and Shield is 920g of "HP" per person since 5.16. Yeah, that's what I meant - that should have read "1350g worth of MR / 4600g worth of HP", i.e., 270 x 5 and 920 x 5.
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On June 11 2016 04:26 Slayer91 wrote: yea they were all great junglers who stood the test of time and didnt get carried at all
Plus, it wasn't just Diamond playing aggro. Lilballz could play Maokai/Shen, but also played aggro junglers like Lee Sin, Elise, and Khazix. Cyanide was another decently aggro EU jungler, Watch played everything competently for quite a while (while never being great).
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On June 11 2016 05:04 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2016 04:26 Slayer91 wrote: yea they were all great junglers who stood the test of time and didnt get carried at all Plus, it wasn't just Diamond playing aggro. Lilballz could play Maokai/Shen, but also played aggro junglers like Lee Sin, Elise, and Khazix. Cyanide was another decently aggro EU jungler, Watch played everything competently for quite a while (while never being great).
o right i forgot how khazix and elise time traveled from s3 to s2. >.>
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The passive aggression of this thread is rising. Can't people just say what they mean instead of little bitchy quips.
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I've been noticing that my teams have been glass as hell (with like full AD Fiora / Riven / Yas / Irelia / Illoai top complete with a ranged support), so I've been building Kindred pretty beefy last 3 or 4 games.
Been grabbing SoA w/ scaling HP yellows instead of flat armor (because it isn't as greedy with SoA as it is with Fervor), and then building Razer > Cleaver > GA & Hurricane components. Mid game you just have like 2.7k HP with ult and W sustain and resists to whatever is scary. You stack cleaver like instantly (AutoE-Q-Auto is 6 stacks). People expect you to fall over instantly in CC, and you just don't... then you can get real real sick ults off to support your carry top who is attacking fully shredded targets.
Feels pretty strong, but the games could have just been freelo too, because in general everything went pretty well.
Any one else tried this?
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On June 11 2016 07:57 JimmiC wrote: The passive aggression of this thread is rising. Can't people just say what they mean instead of little bitchy quips.
well aggression just gets you banned keke
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On June 11 2016 07:57 JimmiC wrote: The passive aggression of this thread is rising. Can't people just say what they mean instead of little bitchy quips.
fight me! yeah sorry seem to be giving passive aggressive replies atm :/
It it just me or is grinding elo the dullest thing ever? Gone up 4 divisions in a week (<30 odd games) and have no real sense of achievement
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thats got not a lot to do with league of legends
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On June 11 2016 09:14 MuddyJam wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2016 07:57 JimmiC wrote: The passive aggression of this thread is rising. Can't people just say what they mean instead of little bitchy quips. fight me! yeah sorry seem to be giving passive aggressive replies atm :/ It it just me or is grinding elo the dullest thing ever? Gone up 4 divisions in a week (<30 odd games) and have no real sense of achievement Assuming that this isn't some stealth bragging, 4 divisions in a week does seem like an achievement to me. Heck, you only have to do is repeat the process 5 more times and boom, you're top tier. Of course, it should get harder as you go.
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On June 11 2016 09:14 MuddyJam wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2016 07:57 JimmiC wrote: The passive aggression of this thread is rising. Can't people just say what they mean instead of little bitchy quips. fight me! yeah sorry seem to be giving passive aggressive replies atm :/ It it just me or is grinding elo the dullest thing ever? Gone up 4 divisions in a week (<30 odd games) and have no real sense of achievement yeah it's pretty boring. but it's nice to have end of season rewards and epeen associated with high rankings
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On June 11 2016 12:16 Faeny wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2016 09:14 MuddyJam wrote:On June 11 2016 07:57 JimmiC wrote: The passive aggression of this thread is rising. Can't people just say what they mean instead of little bitchy quips. fight me! yeah sorry seem to be giving passive aggressive replies atm :/ It it just me or is grinding elo the dullest thing ever? Gone up 4 divisions in a week (<30 odd games) and have no real sense of achievement Assuming that this isn't some stealth bragging, 4 divisions in a week does seem like an achievement to me. Heck, you only have to do is repeat the process 5 more times and boom, you're top tier. Of course, it should get harder as you go. God ranked is so boring, I just win every game. There's just no real sense of achievement when you shit on your opponents every game. When is there supposed to be some kind of challenge?
said Faker.
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Pshh. Faker is the most joyful and trolly soloq player.
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Tryharding doesn't work in soloq. You just get annoyed at one point and start trolling like everyone else.
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On June 11 2016 19:23 nafta wrote: Tryharding doesn't work in soloq. You just get annoyed at one point and start trolling like everyone else. That's why we play fun police champions. So we can tryhard while we troll.
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Does anyone else feel like matchmaking broke in the past few days? My que times have more than doubled from 2 minutes to 6-9 minutes, and every game I've played has been a 1 sided stomping (some times breaking my ways sometimes against me) with the winning team being up double digit kills before 20 minutes, usually with 1 big feeder.
Is this just me having a run of bad luck or did something change?
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Probably just bad luck mixed with tilt, so it seems every game is lopsided (or maybe it is). I haven't felt any changes in matchmaking, although this season I just really hate premades. Queue times depend on rank and what roles you play, I have ~5-10 minutes with ADC/mid and 10sec-2 min with ADC/support in D5.
Tryharding doesn't work in soloq. You just get annoyed at one point and start trolling like everyone else.
Don't tryhard in soloQ, put effort into the game but don't overexert yourself, or you'll tilt so hard. Unless you're a smurf, there are just too many games you can't carry because team sucks.
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im sure nafta needs advice at how to play solo queue
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Sometimes it feel like queue system just fucks up for some reason. I queue as support/fill and usually have very low waits, however occassionally I get a rediculous ~10m queue. Noticed that sometimes I can leave a super long queue, rejoin one and get a game immediately.
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could be that you were about to get matched soon anyway -- as support/fill your position in the queue doesnt really matter since there's nobody else picking those roles
canceling queue as say, jungle/mid would probably be much worse for you
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On June 12 2016 03:10 Slayer91 wrote: im sure nafta needs advice at how to play solo queue
I didn't mean it as advice, more like agreeing. Maybe I should've said 'Yeah, don't bother tryharding'?
Sometimes it feel like queue system just fucks up for some reason. I queue as support/fill and usually have very low waits, however occassionally I get a rediculous ~10m queue. Noticed that sometimes I can leave a super long queue, rejoin one and get a game immediately.
I'm so sure that has to do with whether or not you get a premade in the game: the system wants to queue premades with similar ones, so if your queue has one then the wait time jumps quite a bit.
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I'll tryhard all I want because I have the emotional strength not to be affected by factors outside my control by players making mistakes that I could be making on a bad day
edit: that said "all I want" usually isn't that much kek
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On June 12 2016 03:48 Slayer91 wrote: could be that you were about to get matched soon anyway -- as support/fill your position in the queue doesnt really matter since there's nobody else picking those roles
canceling queue as say, jungle/mid would probably be much worse for you I get 4 minutes as fill average only in diamond 3. Don't remember it being this long before I took a break tbh.
When you add in all the dodges rip.
I don't really tilt from people being bad. Just feels like a waste tryharding when nobody else is. Don't really care if I win or lose that much anyway.
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I never notice queue times since I just shitpost on tl or something while im waiting
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On June 12 2016 03:42 Jek wrote: Sometimes it feel like queue system just fucks up for some reason. I queue as support/fill and usually have very low waits, however occassionally I get a rediculous ~10m queue. Noticed that sometimes I can leave a super long queue, rejoin one and get a game immediately.
Yeah, i think sometimes it pre-selects a chunk of players for a game then gets lost trying to find the last player instead of just making good matches from the available pool sometimes.
Happens to me all the time. Probably once every 3 games or so I get an uber queue that if I don't pay attention will take 15 minutes to pop, or I can cancel and restart at like 5 minutes and it insta-pops.
Or it is just totally busted. Not sure, but i hope it is just grouping chunks because otherwise something is hella hella wrong. Its not a huge deal, but i think my queue times for how bad I am are pretty long ass. I guess I do queue Jungle/Mid though, so kinda my fault.
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So the que Times been high for you lately? Bazing
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On June 11 2016 19:23 nafta wrote: Tryharding doesn't work in soloq. You just get annoyed at one point and start trolling like everyone else. Oh please, not once has my resolve to tryhard in soloQ been broken
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On June 13 2016 19:06 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2016 19:23 nafta wrote: Tryharding doesn't work in soloq. You just get annoyed at one point and start trolling like everyone else. Oh please, not once has my resolve to tryhard in soloQ been broken No matter how resolute you are, the other 4 people on your team may not share the same ideals.
When there are 15 kills in 10 minutes, when the top laner is x9'ng your jungler, when the talon has more kills than long swords, I can guarantee you that somebody isn't try harding.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On June 13 2016 19:49 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2016 19:06 Scip wrote:On June 11 2016 19:23 nafta wrote: Tryharding doesn't work in soloq. You just get annoyed at one point and start trolling like everyone else. Oh please, not once has my resolve to tryhard in soloQ been broken No matter how resolute you are, the other 4 people on your team may not share the same ideals. When there are 15 kills in 10 minutes, when the top laner is x9'ng your jungler, when the talon has more kills than long swords, I can guarantee you that somebody isn't try harding. in no way does that respond to my response
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But it does for people who constantly blame teammates for there issues.
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Nobody signed a contract that said everyone is else has to try as hard as you are the point of tryharding is schooling nerds on the other team your team was gonna do what they were gonna do anyway
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I've been noticing malz making it through pick ban so I thought I'd give a whirl played twice dominated twice, not idea how to use him. I think he's still pretty op if anyone else is looking for freelo
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I think I have a 100% win rate vs. Malz since the rework, that said I think I've only seen him like 4 times.
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seriously? Maybe I'm secret good with him but I feel awful and just get wicked scores and win
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No he is pretty good champion.
I think he is pretty easy to be successful with, if you have any real game knowledge. He is real safe and he has wicked pick potential.
I think his play pattern is hella boring though. If you jungler has 2v2 advantage and their mid has no waveclear you can bully them pretty hard. If you guys don't win the 2v2 you kind of just passively waveclear with EW because if you trade you are even squishier and more gankable than old malz. If they have good waveclear you need to just passively waveclear because if you trade with them at all you get shoved under tower and imo Malz as a champ is pretty bad at last-hitting under tower, not to mention stray minion auto's pop your passive.
You have kill potential after 1 trade if your lane opponent is real bad or you have protobelt/flash. Otherwise you just get picks.
You can get nitty-gritty on him as a champion, but I think that has a lot of potential for you to just get outplayed real hard. You lose literally every trade if you don't have passive up. You can hard bully a lot of people that don't understand his passive this way. Realistically if you trade twice its pretty even, but lots of people are bad and trade once and feel real sad they lost, and just don't trade again and slowly lose the lane. Realistically if you auto Malz early and often you can kick his teeth in levels 1 through 6, and he can't really 1-shot people anymore with his Ultimate.
I think he is good, but i think he would be less good if people knew how to play against him. It takes much more game knowledge to abuse him than it does to succeed as him, and I think the ban wave actually makes him way stronger unlike most champs. I even think the lane becomes free as hell for any champ you want to pick as long as you take Cleanse QSS. All his ult damage is in the pool now so if you cleanse it you basically take no damage. I think he wins a lot of lanes he probably shouldn't. its like how people can take cleanse QSS and body Lissandra, but it is actually much much worse because at least Liss gets damage when she doesn't get the CC. All of Malz ult damage is in the pool from his old W.
That said, even if he isn't abusing people who don't know how to lane against him or took the wrong summoners I think he is strong. How safe he is and how strong his lock-up is makes him a god in a game of picks, which soloqueue definitely is. Pro play is too, but I think supports would rush Crucible things that he wants to pick would rush QSS and he would be much less effective.
EDIT: Herp derp Cleanse and Crucible suck.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Mikael's does not remove suppression.
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Well look at that you're right. When did they change that?
o.o
Weird. I guess Cleanse doesn't work either, but QSS does? wtf... That doesn't make sense but I guess that is the world we live in.
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Cleanse and Crucible never worked on suppression at all.
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They Remade it in patch 1.0.63, the same patch they released Nidalee.
+ Show Spoiler + Remake: Now removes all stuns, slows, taunts, fears, snares, sleeps and immobilizers. No longer provides debuff immunity (but still removes debuffs when cast). Provides a 50% duration reduction to stuns, slows, taunts, fears, snares, sleeps and immobilizers for the next 3 seconds. Cooldown increased to 120 seconds from 100. Willpower (mastery): Cooldown reduction reduced to 20 seconds from 30.
I was quite confident it did before... But there is no proof of what it did before besides "removes all crowd control effects." You could be right that it never did.
I knew QSS did, just assumed the other two did. My bad.
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On June 13 2016 19:06 Scip wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2016 19:23 nafta wrote: Tryharding doesn't work in soloq. You just get annoyed at one point and start trolling like everyone else. Oh please, not once has my resolve to tryhard in soloQ been broken Ok for most of us plebs it doesn't then .
I don't recall crucible ever removing things that it currently doesn't.
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On June 14 2016 05:57 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2016 19:06 Scip wrote:On June 11 2016 19:23 nafta wrote: Tryharding doesn't work in soloq. You just get annoyed at one point and start trolling like everyone else. Oh please, not once has my resolve to tryhard in soloQ been broken Ok for most of us plebs it doesn't then . I don't recall crucible ever removing things that it currently doesn't.
I think you're right on Crucible. I was talking out of ignorance.
I've concluded it is impossible to win the game on spartan and get an S. The system weights CS so much, and if you going off on spartan you don't want to farm, you want to dive bottom. If a Panth has 15 kills and the game ends at 28 minutes, and he only has 160 farm its not because he sucks at farming, he made a conscious choice to go kill things and take objectives instead of farming them.
He probably even donated 3 or 4 waves to an ADC or mid laner because he knew they need to carry him late game.
LoL Client see thats shit and gives you a B+ or some shit. Wtf.
Only way to actually get an S on Spartan is to pop off in lane, then stay in lane and not gank anywhere ever and lose the game with the guy you dicked on eventually carrying the other team to sweet sweet victory while you keep pace with 10 CS/minute. S+ BABY HELL YEAH! That is how you get mastery 7, you just got to farm all day and lose, apparently. 3 straight losses, 3 straight S's. Rank 7 boys!
Dat Algorithm promoting trash gameplay. 4/1/3 with 10 cs/minute is apparently better than going off and hard carrying.
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On June 14 2016 06:36 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2016 05:57 nafta wrote:On June 13 2016 19:06 Scip wrote:On June 11 2016 19:23 nafta wrote: Tryharding doesn't work in soloq. You just get annoyed at one point and start trolling like everyone else. Oh please, not once has my resolve to tryhard in soloQ been broken Ok for most of us plebs it doesn't then . I don't recall crucible ever removing things that it currently doesn't. I think you're right on Crucible. I was talking out of ignorance. I've concluded it is impossible to win the game on spartan and get an S. The system weights CS so much, and if you going off on spartan you don't want to farm, you want to dive bottom. If a Panth has 15 kills and the game ends at 28 minutes, and he only has 160 farm its not because he sucks at farming, he made a conscious choice to go kill things and take objectives instead of farming them. He probably even donated 3 or 4 waves to an ADC or mid laner because he knew they need to carry him late game. LoL Client see thats shit and gives you a B+ or some shit. Wtf. Only way to actually get an S on Spartan is to pop off in lane, then stay in lane and not gank anywhere ever and lose the game with the guy you dicked on eventually carrying the other team to sweet sweet victory while you keep pace with 10 CS/minute. S+ BABY HELL YEAH! That is how you get mastery 7, you just got to farm all day and lose, apparently. 3 straight losses, 3 straight S's. Rank 7 boys! Dat Algorithm promoting trash gameplay. 4/1/3 with 10 cs/minute is apparently better than going off and hard carrying. Yeah, it doesn't seem to be very good at correlating carrying the game with mastery.
I know somebody who absolutely dominated on panth, with 10-15 kills in 25 minute games, and like 70 CS. There is no doubt that he's winning the game because his not farming = everybody on enemy team not farming, but he gets shit scores because his CS is bronze level.
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You tell him man; if you want rank 7 on Spartan you need to reverse carry a few games and farm instead of diving things and winning.
feelsbadman.
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
Man I am having such a blast with Taliyah.
I go 12/18/0, mpen/scaling hp/ap/ms, dorans 2pot, QEW Q>E>W>R, and usually take TP but exhaust, barrier, heal, ignite depending on the matchup all feel good tbh. I actually think I missed out on some solo kills lvl 4/5 because I did not have ignite. But I have been able to make a lot of plays with TP. I get 1 point in R at 6, but don't touch it against until all my other skills are maxed. Doesn't feel like any real reason to max ult at all tbh.
I usually go double dorans -> rylais rush. Morellos is usually my second item. If I am against very AP heavy or a zed/yasuo I will grab abysall/zhona second (sometimes first if I am really getting my shit kicked in). Luden's usually my next buy and then I finish it off with a liandries/deathcap/void.
Early game I push hard with Q. You can clear caster minions lvl 1 with 1 Q, or melees with an AA + Q. I even outpushed a ziggs. Her waveclear with Q is pretty ridiculous. Then lvl 3/4 I usually go for an EWQ combo. It's at this point I am usually low on mana, but the other mid is usually at 30 or 40% hp while I am practically full.
Don't go RoA or GLP on taliyah, it's a fucking trap. You don't need more mana than double dring + morellos. As soon as you get rylais you can get so many picks. If you find someone and hit them with a Q it's a guaranteed engage/flash/summoner burned.
I almost ALWAYS go swifty boots, despite the nerf. While she can zoom zoom around the map, her in combat movespeed is soooo slow. That's why I like the MS quints. MS quints + swifties + rylais + ludens and nobody can outrun you. The EWQ combo on a squishy can 1 shot, it's a surprising amount of damage.
I have had trouble against people who can jump on you, like kat or ekko. I push them early, but then eventually they can just get right in your face with a blink and it's tough to deal with them. I am bad though, because I think if someone like kat or ekko jumps you, you can E, drop W on yourself and backup with Q. What usually happens is I try and make a play with W, miss, and then they jump me. You really have to be patient with your W with champs that can jump right to you. W is really cool though. I have thrown people over the dragon/baron pit, you can stop amumu from completing his bandage toss (which means you can probably stop lee mid q and leona, etc. I wonder if you can stop Ali W?)
The wall is really really fucking good. I have saved a number of towers/secured a couple barons and dragons just from the wall. Not to mention if you flank a teamfight you can be down in gold as a team, but split the fight into 2 or 3 v 5 and turn the game around. You can roam really well during the laning phase by pushing the minion wave with a QE, then surf down to bot lane.
All in all, super fun champ, and I think really strong. She needs a frontline though. But I never feel useless. Pre rylais you still do TON of damage, and after rylais with Q spam if you hit them, enemies never get away without blowing sums.
The wall is wonky sometimes though. I forget which way I am facing, or I think I am facing one way, and I end up riding the wall in the exact OPPOSITE direction from the team./fight and I get a lot of ??? spam LOL.
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Why are people not spamming Kayle games? Like wits end has been buffed heavily which I thought was only good for teemo but just checked op.gg and nashors wits Kayle has like a 70% in plat+ in Korea which is crazy.
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On June 14 2016 09:30 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2016 06:36 iCanada wrote:On June 14 2016 05:57 nafta wrote:On June 13 2016 19:06 Scip wrote:On June 11 2016 19:23 nafta wrote: Tryharding doesn't work in soloq. You just get annoyed at one point and start trolling like everyone else. Oh please, not once has my resolve to tryhard in soloQ been broken Ok for most of us plebs it doesn't then . I don't recall crucible ever removing things that it currently doesn't. I think you're right on Crucible. I was talking out of ignorance. I've concluded it is impossible to win the game on spartan and get an S. The system weights CS so much, and if you going off on spartan you don't want to farm, you want to dive bottom. If a Panth has 15 kills and the game ends at 28 minutes, and he only has 160 farm its not because he sucks at farming, he made a conscious choice to go kill things and take objectives instead of farming them. He probably even donated 3 or 4 waves to an ADC or mid laner because he knew they need to carry him late game. LoL Client see thats shit and gives you a B+ or some shit. Wtf. Only way to actually get an S on Spartan is to pop off in lane, then stay in lane and not gank anywhere ever and lose the game with the guy you dicked on eventually carrying the other team to sweet sweet victory while you keep pace with 10 CS/minute. S+ BABY HELL YEAH! That is how you get mastery 7, you just got to farm all day and lose, apparently. 3 straight losses, 3 straight S's. Rank 7 boys! Dat Algorithm promoting trash gameplay. 4/1/3 with 10 cs/minute is apparently better than going off and hard carrying. Yeah, it doesn't seem to be very good at correlating carrying the game with mastery. I know somebody who absolutely dominated on panth, with 10-15 kills in 25 minute games, and like 70 CS. There is no doubt that he's winning the game because his not farming = everybody on enemy team not farming, but he gets shit scores because his CS is bronze level. Dirty assassin players that takes over the game by farming champions often spills over on supports getting low rating too because they kill everyone before you can get assists.
On June 14 2016 22:44 MuddyJam wrote: Why are people not spamming Kayle games? Like wits end has been buffed heavily which I thought was only good for teemo but just checked op.gg and nashors wits Kayle has like a 70% in plat+ in Korea which is crazy. Because she's not being played in the NA/EU LCS.
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Thank fucking god. Kayle is one of the most cancer things I've ever had to lane against.
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On June 14 2016 23:04 Gahlo wrote: Thank fucking god. Kayle is one of the most cancer things I've ever had to lane against. Let me guess, you've forgotten about both pre-works Nidalee who got a million resists in cougar form and Janna who could full wave clear from level 5.
Completely unrelated, when do you use whom instead of who?
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
On June 14 2016 23:44 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2016 23:04 Gahlo wrote: Thank fucking god. Kayle is one of the most cancer things I've ever had to lane against. Let me guess, you've forgotten about both pre-works Nidalee who got a million resists in cougar form and Janna who could full wave clear from level 5. Completely unrelated, when do you use whom instead of who?
Someone can correct me, but I think when you would use him/her vs he/she.
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Basically when the thing being referred to isn't the subject of the sentence, it's whom. Otherwise it's who.
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On June 14 2016 22:44 MuddyJam wrote: Why are people not spamming Kayle games? Like wits end has been buffed heavily which I thought was only good for teemo but just checked op.gg and nashors wits Kayle has like a 70% in plat+ in Korea which is crazy.
I did try it and it did feel OP as hell. What are they building after nashors and wits. I did great but I'm sure I could have built better. Do you still get Rage Blade? I went Nashor, Attack speed Boots, Wits, Rylais, Hat, GA.
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Builds whatever you want on kayle. Every item in the game synergizes with her kit so much.
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On June 14 2016 22:44 MuddyJam wrote: Why are people not spamming Kayle games? i saw that question on reddit few days ago and somebody answered that azir is better version of kayle which i agree with
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On June 15 2016 02:00 kongoline wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2016 22:44 MuddyJam wrote: Why are people not spamming Kayle games? i saw that question on reddit few days ago and somebody answered that azir is better version of kayle which i agree with Maybe if you are Faker.
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I gave every kayle player PTSD back when I was spamming irelia and that was pre buffs even if she kills you early you just keep killing her later
probably rekt her with jax too
maybe they should play her mid
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yeah kayle is WAY simpler to use than azir
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On June 15 2016 02:50 Slayer91 wrote: I gave every kayle player PTSD back when I was spamming irelia and that was pre buffs even if she kills you early you just keep killing her later
probably rekt her with jax too
maybe they should play her mid Can't she just keep hitting you as Jax, and if you try to jump her/stun she casts Q to slow you and walk away, repeat?
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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On June 15 2016 03:05 GrandInquisitor wrote:No one plays Kayle because of the Kayle Cycle, which consists of seven steps: 1) she is always OP 2) but she is never played 3) until a pro finally plays her and hard carries4) whereupon everyone plays her 5) so Riot nerfs her 6) so everyone stops playing her 7) but return to step 1, because she's still OPYou think I'm joking, but I'm really not. I don't think there's ever been a patch where Kayle hasn't been near the top of the winrate charts.
this is the truth
On June 15 2016 02:58 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2016 02:50 Slayer91 wrote: I gave every kayle player PTSD back when I was spamming irelia and that was pre buffs even if she kills you early you just keep killing her later
probably rekt her with jax too
maybe they should play her mid Can't she just keep hitting you as Jax, and if you try to jump her/stun she casts Q to slow you and walk away, repeat?
wat aint no jax in range that aint gonna start blasting like assuming we're past the whole "i'm melee you're range i'm going to be a stray dog looking for scraps until level 6" point. Kayle isn't the best at punishing that because she's AoE and you can dodge her autos and she just pushes hard and theres gaps where she's melee and can't do anything.
Like you get two autos on a creep q auto W before she can get her Q animation off she's already chunked You can probably land the stun too and she can't turn around till you can just walk into the bush or something and then Q's up again what do.
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Wouldn't the smart Kayle just afk farm against any lane with kill pressure and just outscale massively?
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afk farm when your own farming skill pushes the wave ok chief
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Holy shit I am so glad they left in the gold items. They removed them in the PBE.
<3
They would have hard fucked melee some melee comps if they took out the minion execute. At higher levels of play melee champs need the waveclear and sustain or they just roll over any die to pushing waveclear comps.
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There is higher levels of play in AMRAM? learn something new every day!
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Yeah there are tournaments and stuff.
I'm bad, but I watch the streams sometimes. LOL.
Its not that popular.
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United States37500 Posts
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