Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread. While posting standards tend to be rather lax in this thread, pointless spam will not be tolerated.
On October 14 2015 07:06 MoonBear wrote: Vayne did nothing wrong
AD Carries deserve buffs
adc are fine even doublelift said in interview people are exaggerating too hard, if anything u got spoiled to being strongest role in entire game for 4 seasons and when roles got relative balanced every adc main started to whine like little baby
On October 14 2015 07:06 MoonBear wrote: Vayne did nothing wrong
AD Carries deserve buffs
adc are fine even doublelift said in interview people are exaggerating too hard, if anything u got spoiled to being strongest role in entire game for 4 seasons and when roles got relative balanced every adc main started to whine like little baby
They just need to make Caitlyn Caitlyn-y again. She is supposed to be the solution to all these problems like Trist, Vayne, Jinx, probably should also be for Kalista (but she's never been relevant during the Kalista era).
Honestly ad is just shitty to play unless your team is good at playing with you that is why people whine about it so much( excluding champs like vayne/trist). Compared to mid/top you just need so much babysitting for not big of a difference in reward unless you have lulu or w/e.
Which is a problem of itemization not really balance.
watching xj9 crush meteos in jungle and go 18-1 as reksi seems so unreal, im used to watch meteos dumpster usual soloQ pleb even known junglers like nb3 get crushed most of the time meanwhile whenever i watch him face xj9 he gets crushed, wonder how good he would do in competitive setting
On October 14 2015 09:22 kongoline wrote: watching xj9 crush meteos in jungle and go 18-1 as reksi seems so unreal, im used to watch meteos dumpster usual soloQ pleb even known junglers like nb3 get crushed most of the time meanwhile whenever i watch him face xj9 he gets crushed, wonder how good he would do in competitive setting
On October 14 2015 09:22 kongoline wrote: watching xj9 crush meteos in jungle and go 18-1 as reksi seems so unreal, im used to watch meteos dumpster usual soloQ pleb even known junglers like nb3 get crushed most of the time meanwhile whenever i watch him face xj9 he gets crushed, wonder how good he would do in competitive setting
xj9 was multiple times over top ~15 challenger way back. definitely the most successful carry/farm jungler.
but he's also highly unstable and not capable of functioning in a proper team setting. he was permabanned officially from the game and twitch. just read his facebook page to get a feel for what kind of person he is and you can see how he wouldn't work in the competitive setting
On October 14 2015 09:22 kongoline wrote: watching xj9 crush meteos in jungle and go 18-1 as reksi seems so unreal, im used to watch meteos dumpster usual soloQ pleb even known junglers like nb3 get crushed most of the time meanwhile whenever i watch him face xj9 he gets crushed, wonder how good he would do in competitive setting
On October 14 2015 09:22 kongoline wrote: watching xj9 crush meteos in jungle and go 18-1 as reksi seems so unreal, im used to watch meteos dumpster usual soloQ pleb even known junglers like nb3 get crushed most of the time meanwhile whenever i watch him face xj9 he gets crushed, wonder how good he would do in competitive setting
my doubts about this account would be that he builds cinderhulk a bunch. and that his cs is relatively low for how xj9 plays xj9 claims all over the place that cinderhulk is bad for his kind of jungling unless you are zac or tahm kench
On October 14 2015 08:40 Sufficiency wrote: I like how Riot called it a "QoL" buff when it is a straight buff in the rawest form.
For real. That E is gonna hit like a truck now. Auto reset and it scales with his % max health? Yikes.
Hmm. Is Mundo going to be the first champion to have damage scaling off his own health (E) and enemy's (current) health (Q)? GrandInquisitor we need you!
Correct if you limit to max self health and current target health, and welcome to the next part of the GrandInquisitor quiz!
1) What champ (other than soon-to-come Mundo) has one ability whose damage scales both off his own max health and another ability that scales off the target's max health?
2) What champ has a SINGLE ability that scales off of both his own max health AND the target's max health?
3) What's the only ability that scales off the target's BONUS health?
On October 14 2015 11:59 GrandInquisitor wrote: Correct if you limit to max self health and current target health, and welcome to the next part of the GrandInquisitor quiz!
1) What champ (other than soon-to-come Mundo) has one ability whose damage scales both off his own max health and another ability that scales off the target's max health?
2) What champ has a SINGLE ability that scales off of both his own max health AND the target's max health?
3) What's the only ability that scales off the target's BONUS health?
I was actually thinking about this while I was taking a bath, so I know the answers to these questions.
I assumed the pronoun was used in a gender neutral kind of way but it still does apply for Sej if we ignore gender. If we nitpick with the "his" pronoun then Sion is the only correct answer then.
A Kindred that gets going looks to be hilarious (or an ally to "leech" assists from and/or assist Kindred with invades). Pretty interesting she sorta in an odd sense scales off allies snowballing too.
On October 14 2015 08:40 Sufficiency wrote: I like how Riot called it a "QoL" buff when it is a straight buff in the rawest form.
For real. That E is gonna hit like a truck now. Auto reset and it scales with his % max health? Yikes.
Hmm. Is Mundo going to be the first champion to have damage scaling off his own health (E) and enemy's (current) health (Q)? GrandInquisitor we need you!
Olaf pre-olaf had AD scaling from health on his W's active. Build tank to do damage was pretty stupid but I dont think it'll as bad on Mundo since it's only a single attack.
The problem is that Mundo has no mana and spams pretty much whatever he wants. He also has a very much retarded laning phase where his Q last hits for free...
I don't know. I don't think the changes will magically make him OP (+damage on a melee champion without gapcloser is extremely ineffective as far as buffs go); I just think it might be easier to just revert some of his older nerfs.
Mundo doesn't spam whatever he wants. If you gave him mana and made his W cost that instead of his own health he'd suddenly show up super strong in lane (you don't wanna trade with the dude that has Shyvana's W on at will). Instead it's actually restraining him from trading until he get 6 (for the ult, and even then it's bleh) or he gets enough HP for his health pool and passive to overcome W's cost.
8.1 Hp5 won't really offset you taking 50 Hp5 whenever Burning Agony is turned on. You simply can't use it to trade early on, and that's fine, Mundo has trade-offs.
Quiz answers: for 1, I was actually thinking of someone other than Tahm Kench! Though Tahm Kench is of course als correct. And for 2, Sejuani is correct; Sion W doesn't do damage based off his health. (The use of his rather than hers is insignificant.)
On October 14 2015 14:57 Sufficiency wrote: The problem is that Mundo has no mana and spams pretty much whatever he wants. He also has a very much retarded laning phase where his Q last hits for free...
I don't know. I don't think the changes will magically make him OP (+damage on a melee champion without gapcloser is extremely ineffective as far as buffs go); I just think it might be easier to just revert some of his older nerfs.
Once you lane against an opponent with decent damage skill shots (that goes through minions), you have a really hard time in my experience. Think about cassiopeia, zed or olaf for example. Versatile champions like fiora or renekton are really annoying to deal with as well. Essentially you have cleavers to farm, while you get poked, and they have a free farm lane. That or you need to get close to farm, which is even worse.
I'm not saying buffing was necessary (i'm not on the level to say stuff like that anyway), but to say his laning fase is easy, just because of his Q is not nuanced enough I feel. The reason mundo often had an easy laning phase, is because we were in a meta were people often chose champions without much lane presence, in which mundo thrives.
Mundo buff will help mostly in 3 situations: More consistent damage while being dove, increasing your 1for1 chances, better trading if someone dives in on mundo in lane Q-auto-reset, and better tower damage, naturally with the reset. Tough to predict it making him great because the juggernauts are actually remade into his niche, but the new items aren't spectacular on him. He's still great vs double ap if that comes back, particularly if its double to double ap, as there won't be enough ignites to deal with him.
The Mundo buffs are significant. He's likely going to be picked back up as he is the ultimate juggernaut and with E resetting AAs with a nice %health buff to its first strike there's a lot more burst in Mundo's kit rather than him having to cleaver you to death.
On October 15 2015 03:12 Zdrastochye wrote: The Mundo buffs are significant. He's likely going to be picked back up as he is the ultimate juggernaut and with E resetting AAs with a nice %health buff to its first strike there's a lot more burst in Mundo's kit rather than him having to cleaver you to death.
A good reason to change my champion flair!
Yea. Especially with Titanic Hydra.
Its now possible to AA,E, Titanic Hydra for 3x Base AA + 380-600* + 17% Mundo Max HP basically instantly. Holy moly is that going to surprise people
* Depending on E rank and current HP; this includes titanic hydra bonus AD and on-hit damage
Edit: I am unsure if the 5% is to every attack or just the first attack. Lol wiki seems to imply its to every attack. % HP above is for the 5% on only the first
On October 14 2015 22:27 GrandInquisitor wrote: Quiz answers: for 1, I was actually thinking of someone other than Tahm Kench! Though Tahm Kench is of course als correct. And for 2, Sejuani is correct; Sion W doesn't do damage based off his health. (The use of his rather than hers is insignificant.)
Pff, clearly I've answered your own quiz better than you did except q3.
I just did a botgame with mundo, and though i know it's not representative of actual strength of the champion, the difference is huge. Like Goumindong said, the titanic hydra is really strong, and warmog's is even more useful than normal.
The question I have is Dead Man's Plate worth it on him? Will it do more damage for his kit now that he is slightly an auto attacking champion? Before I'd say if you had chain vest + giants belt you'd just go Sunfire and stand on top of them while cleavering them down. Now, I'm not so sure.
Honestly, the better question is why you don't want Dead Man's Plate on every single melee champion. It's an item that gives you mobility boots, a chunk of burst damage, a targeted slow, and also huge HP/armor tankiness stats.
On October 15 2015 04:59 Zdrastochye wrote: The question I have is Dead Man's Plate worth it on him? Will it do more damage for his kit now that he is slightly an auto attacking champion? Before I'd say if you had chain vest + giants belt you'd just go Sunfire and stand on top of them while cleavering them down. Now, I'm not so sure.
I don't think so. You like the move speed but you probably want Warmog's or Randuin's or Spirit Visage more. Especially since its not hard to catch people with cleaver spam. I mean, its not a bad item in the least, and the move speed is probably really oppressive with cleavers if you're ahead. But I am not sure it necessarily has a place in his build.
The reason you went sunfire is because it let you wave clear before you had enough stats to use W in lane and/or while enemies are around. Basically you can't really afford to use W to clear waves in the face of an enemy since its just free damage on yourself and they should punish you for it, so the early sunfire means that you don't have to W to clear/push waves and don't get constantly shoved in.
But now that you can get Titanic i think you might want to ignore Sunfire entirely as its stats are kind of weak for the price and Titanic has wave clear and loads of oomph. Wardens/Cowl depending on lane opponent into Giants Belt into Titanic into Randuins/Spirit Visage seems pretty strong. And i suppose you could go DMP instead of Randuins but i feel like the team fight slow and much better protection vs crits might be more valuable.
On October 15 2015 05:09 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote: What kind of stuff does and doesn't do mundo top well against?
Early Mundo was low wave clear and a potentially weak early game (his level 1 is insane if you start E and can get to someone or can hit lots of cleavers) so he is weak to champions which can exploit this. He farms OK under turret and has a potentially monstrous lategame so champions which can't get ahead will have problems, and champions that have to step out of the minions in order to deal damage will get a cleaver for their troubles.
Any champion which can push the wave and then be useful before Mundo can(snowballing the rest of the team) and/or fight through the minion wave does very well against him. Lategame he is much a tanks tank. He wants to body block for his allies while killing the enemy tank, then turn and cleaver the enemy squishies to slow them/push them out of the fight. So engage champions and assassins which can ignore him can be problematic.
On October 15 2015 05:09 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote: What kind of stuff does and doesn't do mundo top well against?
Conventionally Mundo loses lane to almost everything. He deals true damage to himself every time he uses an ability and his abilites aren't that impressive before he has some stats to back them up. He can cheese earlygame with E and Doran's blade but I wouldn't recommend it.
That being said, he's pretty safe 1v1 under the turret and farms quite well there. As long as your lane opponent isn't something that'll just murder you outright the moment you take a step out of line (e.g. Riven) Mundo can generally get through lane decently. Do need to be careful about getting dove 1v2 though (so ward up behind you if their jungler's Lee).
Mundo beats most other tanks midgame in 1 on 1's because of percent health damage and pure survivability. He also deals pretty well with kitable characters. He remains bad against executes (please no Riven again). If Mundo gets ahead at this point he also murders most ranged tops because they simply cannot deal the damage needed to kill him before he beats them into a pulp, and getting away from a Mundo with ult if you get hit with a cleaver is hard.
Mundo's immortal lategame but 'ignorable' in that he doesn't offer hard CC. Characters like Irelia will murder your backline before your tankiness really shines.
Overall Mundo is good as a 'going over the top' tank against other tanks and weak-ish laners and blows against characters with % missing HP abilities and characters with high burst.
I've just been killed three times by a Rengar as Fiddlesticks. Every time I have vision, I Q (Terrify) him, and he keeps autoing during the cc, twice every time (I didn't survive more autos than this), with the spell on cooldown, the cc icon over Rengar, everything. Uh-huh. Riot pls?
Edit: actually just had LB do the same thing. She casts Distorsion, so she's in range and I cast Q, she doesn't get cc'd. Another time had Rengar in a bush, Sivir a bit further, and me right next to the bush between them both. I cast Q on Rengar, he jumps right over me to Sivir (still in Q range), and the spell doesn't cast at all (no cd or mana used, nothing, as if he wasn't targetable).
It is technically not a bug( in this game I don't even know lol). Same way say nidalee can que up her abilities and hit you with a full combo even if you stun her midair.
That'd be dumb even with just abilities, but that included regular autos. Can you really queue up the jump, empowered Q, Q (which technically you can't do, because you have to auto and consume the buff before it reverts to the standard icon and lets you cast it) and then regular autos so you can ignore a cc?
It depends on when exactly you land the cc with stuns but dunno about flee cuz I almost never see/fid/noct/shaco lol and since sandbox doesn't exist can't really be bothered to test it out.
To explain it a bit more in league a lot of abilities actually have cast bars(which aren't included in the tooltip for some reason) and there is no cc in the game that interrupts them if they start. A really easy example is naut q and how you can pull yourself out of say blitz hook or tristana w/ezreal e/etc. That is the reason very often people can land their abilities after they get hit by cc.
The return of Alaric the bugmaster. He is the man that makes me positive that that Bengi stun was totally bugged and that it happens in every game of LOL and Riot just prays people don't notice them all.
There was that bug a while back that let you queue up autos to use them while stunned, BIC-ing or something it was called iirc? Maybe that bug came back.
edit: was something to do with letting you flash between CC's, like you could self-stun and then queue up autos during it, and then they have to be used up before you can be stunned again but by that time the stun effect has already ended.
For the autos, if you right-click something (that is in range) to auto it during a spell's casting time (for example Caitlyn's net), the auto will be queued and issued no matter what happens during this time. I think, but I'm not sure, that displacement are exceptions (if you get hit by Irelia's E during the net animation you'll auto, if Alistar headbutts you it'll override your commands so you won't auto), because they cancel whatever you queued.
I don't think it's possible to queue multiple autos this way, though? And it certainly shouldn't be possible to queue Rengar's empowered Q and Q (the same way you wouldn't be able to queue Lee Sin's Q2 because you need the first Q to hit before the second one is available to cast), but he did the whole plate.
I heard Riot is changing offensive players' names to... something less offensive (not emailsupportXXXXXX kind of placeholder names). With this in mind, here's a short list of potentially changed names I've found (obviously offensive in nature, but pretty interesting)
On October 15 2015 09:02 Alaric wrote: For the autos, if you right-click something (that is in range) to auto it during a spell's casting time (for example Caitlyn's net), the auto will be queued and issued no matter what happens during this time. I think, but I'm not sure, that displacement are exceptions (if you get hit by Irelia's E during the net animation you'll auto, if Alistar headbutts you it'll override your commands so you won't auto), because they cancel whatever you queued.
I don't think it's possible to queue multiple autos this way, though? And it certainly shouldn't be possible to queue Rengar's empowered Q and Q (the same way you wouldn't be able to queue Lee Sin's Q2 because you need the first Q to hit before the second one is available to cast), but he did the whole plate.
You shouldn't be able to queue anything in this way to get it past CC. What matters is when the animation starts not the action queue. Unless you're in an ability which queues an action as part of its animation. Because then the entire thing is basically one animation.
Basically, if you start an animation and get hit with a CC that does not interrupt animations (like a stun or a root) then the animation continues.
Rengar is getting his jump+q in because fear doesn't move block and his Q doesn't have an animation. He has probably pressed Q before he gets feared and so lands with a single auto attack Q. Then the fear hits.
On October 14 2015 09:22 kongoline wrote: watching xj9 crush meteos in jungle and go 18-1 as reksi seems so unreal, im used to watch meteos dumpster usual soloQ pleb even known junglers like nb3 get crushed most of the time meanwhile whenever i watch him face xj9 he gets crushed, wonder how good he would do in competitive setting
There are videos on youtube showing how it works. I mentioned Caitlyn because I remember a "tutorial" showing her casting her net then buffering an auto after Taric cast his stun at her. The stun hits her during the net animation and she autos once right after (then she's stunned). About what happened to me, I said he auto'd 2+ times during the fear, and he auto'd more than that. I cast it while he was getting in range/pouncing on me, so with the jump being an auto, taking that damage is normal, same with the following one (his aa animation is basically non-existent when chaining a jump with a Q or empQ) because of the cast time (and Terrify's range is lower than his passive/ult pounce range). The two other autos he did after the fear, with the indicator on his head and my ability on cd, though, are not.
On October 15 2015 13:30 Sufficiency wrote: I heard Riot is changing offensive players' names to... something less offensive (not emailsupportXXXXXX kind of placeholder names). With this in mind, here's a short list of potentially changed names I've found (obviously offensive in nature, but pretty interesting)
On October 15 2015 13:30 Sufficiency wrote: I heard Riot is changing offensive players' names to... something less offensive (not emailsupportXXXXXX kind of placeholder names). With this in mind, here's a short list of potentially changed names I've found (obviously offensive in nature, but pretty interesting)
Just curious: Why is Azir borderline OP in competitive, but does horribly in the solo queue environment?
I mean, what skillset is required to play him to his fullest? He doesn't seem THAT mechanically demanding, outside of the "Shurima Shuffle".
I don't own him, but am looking to pick up a mid laner for when I'm forced to play mid, and the whole concept intrigues me but I'm confused by the HUGE disparity between solo queue success and professional success...
With a lot of poke based champions and team comps, they're incredibly team reliant. Azir's biggest strength is obviously his zone control. If he can keep the enemy at arm's length, 2-4 soldiers are going to do a lot of work.
Problem with solo q is that communication is nearly non-existant. Azir's team isn't going to peel for him optimally and if the enemy hard engages with CC, he's toast. Most Azir can manage themselves with his dash, wall and pseudo-turret to fall back on. But if he gets stun locked and there's no peel, he's as good as dead.
Solo q rewards aggression far more than defensive play. It's also why assassins Mid are so prevalent.
Edit: if you want a solo q mid, pick something that can win lane, then hard carry late game. See sentence above.
On October 16 2015 00:16 Celial wrote: Just curious: Why is Azir borderline OP in competitive, but does horribly in the solo queue environment?
I mean, what skillset is required to play him to his fullest? He doesn't seem THAT mechanically demanding, outside of the "Shurima Shuffle".
I don't own him, but am looking to pick up a mid laner for when I'm forced to play mid, and the whole concept intrigues me but I'm confused by the HUGE disparity between solo queue success and professional success...
Azir has some problems:
1. Hard to play 2. Mana dependent if you do the 'pro' build with Nashor's, especially when solo queue is pokey. 3. Team dependent 4. Hard to play 5. Did I mention hard to play?
If you want a mid laner, I think the current best choices are TF, Lux, and Veigar. If you want something assassin-y, try Ahri or Talon. For something more niche, Swain, Yasuo, and Chogath.
Syndra is always a good mid lane choice if you want to put in a little time learn her
Apart from that, Ahri is probably the best choice. She does everything well, is simple to play and Riot/playing public loves her so she will always be relevant power-wise.
My approach is the complete opposite to NeoIllusion's. I believe you climb in elo if you simply don't do stupid stuff. Play safe and consistent. Risky playmaking is way overrated. There is no need to carry your team as long as you don't carry your opponents.
On October 16 2015 20:10 Prog wrote: My approach is the complete opposite to NeoIllusion's. I believe you climb in elo if you simply don't do stupid stuff. Play safe and consistent. Risky playmaking is way overrated. There is no need to carry your team as long as you don't carry your opponents.
It's funny you mention this since the other day I was speaking to Neo about how I kept losing games with "risky carry" heroes then I pick malphite and just destroy the game easily by not being dumb. I think people care far too much about "destroying their opponent" instead of just doing things to help your team win the game. Trying to carry your team is only consistent if you are drastically better than your rank. At least that's how I feel. You also don't learn how to play well as eventually you'll hit a level where you can no longer do this but you won't have the tools you need to just play a smart, safe, consistent game since all you are used to is going balls to the wall playmaking.
On October 16 2015 00:25 NeoIllusions wrote: With a lot of poke based champions and team comps, they're incredibly team reliant. Azir's biggest strength is obviously his zone control. If he can keep the enemy at arm's length, 2-4 soldiers are going to do a lot of work.
Problem with solo q is that communication is nearly non-existant. Azir's team isn't going to peel for him optimally and if the enemy hard engages with CC, he's toast. Most Azir can manage themselves with his dash, wall and pseudo-turret to fall back on. But if he gets stun locked and there's no peel, he's as good as dead.
Solo q rewards aggression far more than defensive play. It's also why assassins Mid are so prevalent.
Edit: if you want a solo q mid, pick something that can win lane, then hard carry late game. See sentence above.
errr idk dude but defensive play is all I ever did and out of my 999 problems climbing ladder wasn't one of them the easiest way to phrase it is, it's really really hard to lose if you never die and if you don't lose you win never die=almost always win
yeah, agree with Numy and Prog. Not doing retarded shit is the dominant soloQ strategy.
Well improving is basically trying to cut all the dumbness from your play right? Playing better is simply doing less dumb stuff and more smart stuff, in really simple terms.
I have a couple friends in silver-plat who I play with a bunch and they die a lot more than me, not just a little bit, but even if they're winning the game they'll usually die somewhere around 8 times. Every time you die you lose roughly a minute where you can do useful shit, so essentially just by dying 2 times less each game you gain 2 minutes worth of gold/objectives.
Well I guess my usage of dumb shit is bad here and should use "force yourself to do plays which you would usually think are too risky to do". For me the biggest improvement in my play was realizing a death or 2 really don't matter all that much and to be more realistic with how important me living is.
On October 16 2015 21:54 nafta wrote: Imo not doing dumb shit is how you get to where you roughly should be while by yoloing it up you improve faster.
it really depends if one of your main problems is doing dumb shit (which unless you're in masters it probably is) then trying to not do dumb shit until it becomes 2nd nature is the best way to improve imo.
^^ So often I have games where if only I hadn't died that 1 time we would have won. Like, really really often. Especially with junglers highly reliant on exp/gold like Olaf.
On October 16 2015 22:03 nafta wrote: Well I guess my usage of dumb shit is bad here and should use "force yourself to do plays which you would usually think are too risky to do". For me the biggest improvement in my play was realizing a death or 2 really don't matter all that much and to be more realistic with how important me living is.
Yeah as long as you can still farm and your death didn't cause that much of a snowball it doesn't really matter. Bonus points if your death gives your team an advantage in some other way.
On October 16 2015 21:54 nafta wrote: Imo not doing dumb shit is how you get to where you roughly should be while by yoloing it up you improve faster.
it really depends if one of your main problems is doing dumb shit (which unless you're in masters it probably is) then trying to not do dumb shit until it becomes 2nd nature is the best way to improve imo.
^^ So often I have games where if only I hadn't died that 1 time we would have won. Like, really really often. Especially with junglers highly reliant on exp/gold like Olaf.
Maybe this is cuz you play only jungle and play everything but jungle. I honestly can't really recall many games where it matters all that much unless everyone but me is feeding. But then again if everyone is feeding how can you compensate by just playing safe?
Just because you died a few times trying to make a play but failed doesn't just remove the times it does work though. It is pretty hard to learn that something is a bad decision unless someone better than you explains it or you try it enough times to understand why it doesn't.
On October 16 2015 21:54 nafta wrote: Imo not doing dumb shit is how you get to where you roughly should be while by yoloing it up you improve faster.
it really depends if one of your main problems is doing dumb shit (which unless you're in masters it probably is) then trying to not do dumb shit until it becomes 2nd nature is the best way to improve imo.
^^ So often I have games where if only I hadn't died that 1 time we would have won. Like, really really often. Especially with junglers highly reliant on exp/gold like Olaf.
When watching streams, I noticed that up until the highest levels of play you basically learn more and more and better and better what NOT to do. And only at the highest levels the question then becomes what CAN I do. But 99.9999999999999% is "I should not do this".
As for the winningest champs, it seems they all share the quality apart from MF of being able to pick a direction and kill whatever is in that direction, supported by mass AoE/burst/CC.
On October 15 2015 15:14 Goumindong wrote: You shouldn't be able to queue anything in this way to get it past CC. What matters is when the animation starts not the action queue. Unless you're in an ability which queues an action as part of its animation. Because then the entire thing is basically one animation.
Basically, if you start an animation and get hit with a CC that does not interrupt animations (like a stun or a root) then the animation continues.
Rengar is getting his jump+q in because fear doesn't move block and his Q doesn't have an animation. He has probably pressed Q before he gets feared and so lands with a single auto attack Q. Then the fear hits.
It's more universal than that. The vast (vast, vast) majority of spells in League of Legends are not interruptible at all, including via stuns and suppression. Or rather, the windup animations of spells are not interruptible; if the spell has an actual animation to it (generally dashes), that part is interruptible.
I don't know why Riot coded the game this way. It's contrary to 100% of other games I've played with similar features. But it's been this way since pre-season 1 and probably somewhere around once a month when I'm actively reading this thread, someone pops in with a new "bug" that is the CC-windup-animation-interaction working as intended.
On October 16 2015 20:01 nafta wrote: If you wanna play mid viktor/lulu/karthus(don't blind pick kart though) are the easiest to play and easy to be useful with.
I think Lulu is a lot like Caitlyn in the sense that she gives the illusion of being easy because of her relative safety early game and the way they often feel like they're contributing a lot even if they aren't really doing anything. For instance, it's good enough in a lot of games to just E+W your AD on cooldown, but it's certainly not optimal in all of them, and it's sometimes actively bad. And I think a lot of people fall into the trap of running the same baseline strategy on Lulu every game (whether it's buffbot or something else) and sort of throwing up their hands and saying they were destined to lose in the games where it doesn't work. But Lulu's true strength is her versatility. Her decision tree is among the largest in the game. She's excellent at teamfighting, split-pushing, and skirmishing, but building for one of these aspects makes her substantially worse at the others. All of her spells are modal; in any given teamfight, you have more options than probably anyone else in the game, and though multiple paths might lead to a win, only one is optimal.
Cancelling in mid animation is a pretty terrible idea anyway. If the spell is not an actual "channel", it should just go through instead of getting interrupted accidentally.
One of the reasons why animations shouldn't be interrupted is because the animations are usually 0.1-0.2 seconds long; it's not actually possible for a player to react to an ANIMATION to interrupt. So if it is allowed you end up in a situation where you can randomly get interrupted because someone just happened to have thrown something at you while you are casting an ability.
Btw I now totally get Flash Wolves when they say that they see themselves as very aggressive and high pressure early game team. Despite not being one AT ALL.
Since I got Kindred I feel like I'm "working" so much in the game, trying to do so much, farming ganking, watching lanes for opportunities, invading, etc etc.
And then I have 25 cs at minute 10 and zero kills. And then I watch some Asian replay vods of Kindred.
Yeah, to me it seems like I'm being busy. But I'm not.
It is a revelation, like the MSL show where they were showing first person vods from pro games from BW.
I watch a lot of jungle streamers, and I felt like there is not that much difference how they spend their time between me and them. They were just overall "better", or making better decisions. But really, watching replays was the first time I noticed just how much more high level players do in the game.
50 cs at ten minutes, plus immense lane pressure, plus a few kills, plus some counter jungling. And they keep that pace, doubling their stats by minute 20. And when I look at worlds, or high level streams in general, then that's just the absolute basic foundation. Thats just the expected bare minimum.
Specifically talking about these two, especially the second one really let the realization sink in:
On October 16 2015 20:01 nafta wrote: If you wanna play mid viktor/lulu/karthus(don't blind pick kart though) are the easiest to play and easy to be useful with.
I think Lulu is a lot like Caitlyn in the sense that she gives the illusion of being easy because of her relative safety early game and the way they often feel like they're contributing a lot even if they aren't really doing anything. For instance, it's good enough in a lot of games to just E+W your AD on cooldown, but it's certainly not optimal in all of them, and it's sometimes actively bad. And I think a lot of people fall into the trap of running the same baseline strategy on Lulu every game (whether it's buffbot or something else) and sort of throwing up their hands and saying they were destined to lose in the games where it doesn't work. But Lulu's true strength is her versatility. Her decision tree is among the largest in the game. She's excellent at teamfighting, split-pushing, and skirmishing, but building for one of these aspects makes her substantially worse at the others. All of her spells are modal; in any given teamfight, you have more options than probably anyone else in the game, and though multiple paths might lead to a win, only one is optimal.
When you are playing a role you don't play the most important thing is having a champion that can lane safely, can be useful when behind and has a low skill floor. Just because she has a lot of options doesn't make it hard to pickup.
Not to mention there really aren't all that many. The only limiting factor of lulu is she isn't that good when there isn't a good champion on your team for you to buff but is still decent.
Caitlyn is not useful when behind which is why she isn't a good champion for new players.
Kinda funny to me how every single kr game the jungler starts on bot side while on eu top/jg dj and bot does a camp.
On October 17 2015 12:31 OhTwoMise wrote: But it's been this way since pre-season 1 and probably somewhere around once a month when I'm actively reading this thread, someone pops in with a new "bug" that is the CC-windup-animation-interaction working as intended.
Not that actively then. This time it was me, and to reiterate (in a spoiler 'cause it's long and not pertaining to the current discussion): + Show Spoiler +
- Rengar ults, I have a pink nearby and see him. - I cast Fiddle's Q, but am not in range yet. - Rengar pounces, getting in Q range, with his empowered Q activated. - while I'm casting Q (it has the slightest cast time, but still a cast time), he auto-resets with standard Q. - he's now feared. CC icon, my spell on cooldown, mana expended, everything. He autos me twice more, regular autos, and I die.
I know about queueing an auto (and some spells) using another spell's cast time to go around cc, and I know that you can't interrupt most animations (was a component in the Garen/Irelia match-up where in the time it takes me to E him after he presses Q and runs at me, he gets into melee range and starts the aa animation for Q; he's stunned but still completes it). Of course there are some exceptions like Ahri's Charm (it's even stronger than Rammus' taunt because it will stop someone mid-dash, while Rammus will taunt then and they'll only start moving back to him after the dash finishes), but that's what they are, exceptions. (Plus Ahri needs to be one of Riot's special snowflakes.)
The thing about queueing an ability, though, is that you need to be able to actually cast it. If you're oom, already cc'd, or the ability is on cd, it doesn't matter that at the point you'd be casting it in the queue you'd have enough mana or off cd: when you want to issue the cast command, you can't, so no queueing. Rengar's empowered abilities replace his standard abilities in the spell bar, and when you cast Q it doesn't go on cd/lose the "empowered" alternative set display until you've hit something. So you can't cast empQ, then queue another Q until you've hit something with the empowered auto, which makes it impossible to queue it. (I'm not sure if you can queue an empowered spell into the normal version of another spell either, what with his ability sets swapping and all. I guess Jayce/Nidalee/Elise can't queue up alternate form abilities either since they'd need the R cast to complete first, even if it's instant?)
And you can add to it that he kept attacking through the fear, it wasn't a single aa. It happened several times, I only remember the 2 on myself, and it was 2 autos and 3 autos (I assume he'd have continued but I was dead by then). You can queue an auto or spell using the animations, but not several like this.
Although not the same at all, I do encounter more 'weird things' in 5.20 than before. The pathing seemed to have worsened quite a bit; sometimes I move to a location opposite of where I'm clicking, without any obstacles in the way. And sometimes minions or champions seem to randomly teleport into the location they're heading, the largest being around 400 in range. The pathing thing might have been there al along, but i just didn't notice, but I'm 100% percent sure i never saw things randomly teleport before.
I noticed (when fooling around pre-2 minutes, spamming laugh, running around each other, etc.) that the collision size of units seems bigger. I was making wide circles running around a LeBlanc, rather than walk pretty close to (but not through) her. It's probably related to the bug that made 2 units close to each other accelerate (you know about that one if you've played Broodwar) that they finally fixed in this patch. But if they did it by making collision size bigger or by preventing units from moving too close to each other then I don't see how it can't be poised to worsen pathing, yeah. :/
Yeah the pathing has definitely been messed up. I've been on botlane and clicked midlane and have started walking in opposite direction(and no that wasn't a misclick) and all. It also feels much more difficult being a melee champion because the pathing is really strange with minions. Maybe that's why I've enjoyed playing Kassadin and Fizz the most lately(And btw, I stopped playing Kassadin for years because of all the nerfs, but after trying him out again impulsively, he's still just as OP and he's never banned)
On October 17 2015 12:31 OhTwoMise wrote: But it's been this way since pre-season 1 and probably somewhere around once a month when I'm actively reading this thread, someone pops in with a new "bug" that is the CC-windup-animation-interaction working as intended.
Not that actively then. This time it was me, and to reiterate (in a spoiler 'cause it's long and not pertaining to the current discussion): + Show Spoiler +
- Rengar ults, I have a pink nearby and see him. - I cast Fiddle's Q, but am not in range yet. - Rengar pounces, getting in Q range, with his empowered Q activated. - while I'm casting Q (it has the slightest cast time, but still a cast time), he auto-resets with standard Q. - he's now feared. CC icon, my spell on cooldown, mana expended, everything. He autos me twice more, regular autos, and I die.
I know about queueing an auto (and some spells) using another spell's cast time to go around cc, and I know that you can't interrupt most animations (was a component in the Garen/Irelia match-up where in the time it takes me to E him after he presses Q and runs at me, he gets into melee range and starts the aa animation for Q; he's stunned but still completes it). Of course there are some exceptions like Ahri's Charm (it's even stronger than Rammus' taunt because it will stop someone mid-dash, while Rammus will taunt then and they'll only start moving back to him after the dash finishes), but that's what they are, exceptions. (Plus Ahri needs to be one of Riot's special snowflakes.)
The thing about queueing an ability, though, is that you need to be able to actually cast it. If you're oom, already cc'd, or the ability is on cd, it doesn't matter that at the point you'd be casting it in the queue you'd have enough mana or off cd: when you want to issue the cast command, you can't, so no queueing. Rengar's empowered abilities replace his standard abilities in the spell bar, and when you cast Q it doesn't go on cd/lose the "empowered" alternative set display until you've hit something. So you can't cast empQ, then queue another Q until you've hit something with the empowered auto, which makes it impossible to queue it. (I'm not sure if you can queue an empowered spell into the normal version of another spell either, what with his ability sets swapping and all. I guess Jayce/Nidalee/Elise can't queue up alternate form abilities either since they'd need the R cast to complete first, even if it's instant?)
And you can add to it that he kept attacking through the fear, it wasn't a single aa. It happened several times, I only remember the 2 on myself, and it was 2 autos and 3 autos (I assume he'd have continued but I was dead by then). You can queue an auto or spell using the animations, but not several like this.
Guilty, though a year or so ago I used to read it very actively and it was prevalent then. A lot of the time no one identifies it as the windup-interaction feature and it gets dismissed as an isolated bug.
Hydra/Tiamat go a long way toward explaining your scenario (but don't quite get there alone). Can't offer you any more without seeing a replay. My guess is it has something to do with Rengar's dash-attack being treated as a spell and not an auto, which would theoretically allow dash + queued auto + queued Q + queued Tiamat.
On October 16 2015 20:01 nafta wrote: If you wanna play mid viktor/lulu/karthus(don't blind pick kart though) are the easiest to play and easy to be useful with.
I think Lulu is a lot like Caitlyn in the sense that she gives the illusion of being easy because of her relative safety early game and the way they often feel like they're contributing a lot even if they aren't really doing anything. For instance, it's good enough in a lot of games to just E+W your AD on cooldown, but it's certainly not optimal in all of them, and it's sometimes actively bad. And I think a lot of people fall into the trap of running the same baseline strategy on Lulu every game (whether it's buffbot or something else) and sort of throwing up their hands and saying they were destined to lose in the games where it doesn't work. But Lulu's true strength is her versatility. Her decision tree is among the largest in the game. She's excellent at teamfighting, split-pushing, and skirmishing, but building for one of these aspects makes her substantially worse at the others. All of her spells are modal; in any given teamfight, you have more options than probably anyone else in the game, and though multiple paths might lead to a win, only one is optimal.
When you are playing a role you don't play the most important thing is having a champion that can lane safely, can be useful when behind and has a low skill floor. Just because she has a lot of options doesn't make it hard to pickup.
Not to mention there really aren't all that many. The only limiting factor of lulu is she isn't that good when there isn't a good champion on your team for you to buff but is still decent.
Caitlyn is not useful when behind which is why she isn't a good champion for new players.
Kinda funny to me how every single kr game the jungler starts on bot side while on eu top/jg dj and bot does a camp.
Mostly disagree. I've seen a lot of Lulus do next to nothing because they don't understand how the hero works outside of lane. To be fair, I play at a very low level a lot of the time. I won't play at all with less than a 3-stack and a lot of my friends are quite bad (which means the pubs are also quite bad).
On October 17 2015 12:48 Sufficiency wrote: Cancelling in mid animation is a pretty terrible idea anyway. If the spell is not an actual "channel", it should just go through instead of getting interrupted accidentally.
One of the reasons why animations shouldn't be interrupted is because the animations are usually 0.1-0.2 seconds long; it's not actually possible for a player to react to an ANIMATION to interrupt. So if it is allowed you end up in a situation where you can randomly get interrupted because someone just happened to have thrown something at you while you are casting an ability.
Don't agree with this at all. There are plays to be made other than reaction. You ever play Guild Wars? It's not uncommon to interrupt .25 second casts with knockdowns/interrupts that take longer to cast than the targeted spell.
It's also not unreasonable to just put longer cast animations in. Obviously Riot didn't, but because they made the short animation choice does not automatically make interruptible spells a bad idea.
Guild War does have interruptions, but most spells in Guild War have longer activation time (often 0.75-1 seconds long, 0.25 is minimum without modifications). Also, Guild War has a series of mechanics on interruptions - it's not simple as "do this, and the spell stops.". IIRC a lot of the interruption mechanics is designed to counterplay healers.
On October 16 2015 20:01 nafta wrote: If you wanna play mid viktor/lulu/karthus(don't blind pick kart though) are the easiest to play and easy to be useful with.
Azir isn't really all that hard to play tbh. It is just most people in soloq aren't fans of using their brains.
Veigar is usualy banned, tf is decent but can be difficult to not feed on him in some matchups, ahri is just solid and lux is ok.
Maybe Karthus. But Viktor is kind of weak at the moment and Lulu definitely needs the right team to work with.(Viktor as well, but Viktor mainly needs coordination between your team) You would be much better off with something like Galio, Malzahar, Annie, or Lux.
On October 16 2015 00:25 NeoIllusions wrote: With a lot of poke based champions and team comps, they're incredibly team reliant. Azir's biggest strength is obviously his zone control. If he can keep the enemy at arm's length, 2-4 soldiers are going to do a lot of work.
Problem with solo q is that communication is nearly non-existant. Azir's team isn't going to peel for him optimally and if the enemy hard engages with CC, he's toast. Most Azir can manage themselves with his dash, wall and pseudo-turret to fall back on. But if he gets stun locked and there's no peel, he's as good as dead.
Solo q rewards aggression far more than defensive play. It's also why assassins Mid are so prevalent.
Edit: if you want a solo q mid, pick something that can win lane, then hard carry late game. See sentence above.
errr idk dude but defensive play is all I ever did and out of my 999 problems climbing ladder wasn't one of them the easiest way to phrase it is, it's really really hard to lose if you never die and if you don't lose you win never die=almost always win
yeah, agree with Numy and Prog. Not doing retarded shit is the dominant soloQ strategy.
Increasing the variance is always optimal for the losing team. When you're ahead it makes a lot of sense to play safe, you're going to win eventually in all likelihood and you don't want to F that up. When you're behind on the other hand you're not going to win eventually, so you've got to get something done, some advantage. Play too safe and you lose. Sure things can get super bad super fast if you fail your play, but losing in 20 minutes has the same effect on your MMR as losing in 30 minutes.
That being said, the biggest thing that you can do in Soloqueue is figure out who can lead and follow them or lead yourself. Harmony of action is so much more important than making risky or not risky plays for the vast majority of games. 5 people all-inning a bad play will beat 4 people half heatedly making a good one.
@Alaric not sure what to say. That type of buffering was removed from the game a long time ago, maybe some legacy code snuck into the last patch
"viktor kind of weak at the moment" Considering you were the person who kept saying viktor before the nerfs wasn't that strong this statement is irrelevant.
All you need for lulu is a strong bruiser/juggernaut or trist/jinx/vayne/kalista. Pretty sure chances are you will have one of those in almost every game.
I think you're a lot more likely to lose games by going for big plays than playing safe in soloq. With a mentality of playing safe, you can somewhat mitigate a skill disadvantage by trying to prevent plays through warding, and not letting them feed off you.
That doesn't mean you can't capitalize on enemy mistakes, but it's more important to not get baited into bad situations and die needlessly, at least in soloq.
On October 18 2015 18:08 nafta wrote: "viktor kind of weak at the moment" Considering you were the person who kept saying viktor before the nerfs wasn't that strong this statement is irrelevant.
All you need for lulu is a strong bruiser/juggernaut or trist/jinx/vayne/kalista. Pretty sure chances are you will have one of those in almost every game.
Fine Viktor in his current iteration sucks. He super sucks and is one of the worst overall mids you could pick, even if he has some use in competitive games. It's like telling people to play LeBlanc after the nerfs. She sucked before the nerfs too and then they nerfed her and she sucked more
On October 18 2015 18:08 nafta wrote: "viktor kind of weak at the moment" Considering you were the person who kept saying viktor before the nerfs wasn't that strong this statement is irrelevant.
All you need for lulu is a strong bruiser/juggernaut or trist/jinx/vayne/kalista. Pretty sure chances are you will have one of those in almost every game.
Fine Viktor in his current iteration sucks. He super sucks and is one of the worst overall mids you could pick, even if he has some use in competitive games. It's like telling people to play LeBlanc after the nerfs. She sucked before the nerfs too and then they nerfed her and she sucked more
On October 18 2015 18:08 nafta wrote: "viktor kind of weak at the moment" Considering you were the person who kept saying viktor before the nerfs wasn't that strong this statement is irrelevant.
All you need for lulu is a strong bruiser/juggernaut or trist/jinx/vayne/kalista. Pretty sure chances are you will have one of those in almost every game.
Fine Viktor in his current iteration sucks. He super sucks and is one of the worst overall mids you could pick, even if he has some use in competitive games. It's like telling people to play LeBlanc after the nerfs. She sucked before the nerfs too and then they nerfed her and she sucked more
ayy lmao
Viktor has a 46% ish win rate in Soloqueue mid. That is good for 39/46. Ahead of Orianna, Cassiopea, LeBlanc, Ekko, Kassadin, Azir, and Ryze. Would you recommend playing one of those?The 7 above him are, Syndra, Varus, Jayce, Ziggs, Teemo, Zed, Lulu. I know you recommended Lulu would you recommend any other? He isn't good, many other champions will hard clear mid just like he can, except they will also win games.
On October 19 2015 06:05 nafta wrote: I forgot the only thing that matters is winrate in champion.gg. I am sorry.
Winning games is indeed the only thing that matters. (well plus a sample size large enough to determine whether or not its indicative)
If you have a better sample of win rates i would love to see it. Because i go to Lolking and i see basically the same numbers repeated in all divisions. Bronze? Sucks. Silver? Sucks. Gold? Sucks. Plat? Sucks. Diamond? Sucks.
Its even moreso bad to suggest Viktor to players who want an easy mid because Viktor is a high skill champion. He only breaks even on win rate after 125+ games played as him where as plenty of other mids have high win rates on low experience
On October 19 2015 06:16 loSleb wrote: So if from now on I only play Heimerdinger top, I will get challenger because he has above 50% winrate? You are literally beyond saving.
Ayyyyy lmaooo
But for real, winrate for the masses doesn't say a whole lot about winrate for individuals. Just because there are a lot of shitters playing him doesn't mean he's a bad champion.
On October 19 2015 06:16 loSleb wrote: So if from now on I only play Heimerdinger top, I will get challenger because he has above 50% winrate? You are literally beyond saving.
1600 games evaluated this patch has a 1.2% standard error so Heimer top's real win rate is around 53 to 59 with about 95% probability. If you wanted to win games in soloqueue it would not be a bad idea.
11000 games for Viktor has about a .4% standard error, so call it 1% either way for a 95% confidence and you're looking at 45% to 47% win rate. Woooo, amazing!
Alright, so over 11000 games of Viktor, counting every player, he has a winrate of around 46%. This helps us in what way, exactly, to determine whether or not we should play him in soloq?
On October 19 2015 06:16 loSleb wrote: So if from now on I only play Heimerdinger top, I will get challenger because he has above 50% winrate? You are literally beyond saving.
1600 games evaluated this patch has a 1.2% standard error so Heimer top's real win rate is around 53 to 59 with about 95% probability. If you wanted to win games in soloqueue it would not be a bad idea.
11000 games for Viktor has about a .4% standard error, so call it 1% either way for a 95% confidence and you're looking at 45% to 47% win rate. Woooo, amazing!
Hold on. You are not going to argue about mixed role MMR here?
On October 19 2015 06:16 loSleb wrote: So if from now on I only play Heimerdinger top, I will get challenger because he has above 50% winrate? You are literally beyond saving.
1600 games evaluated this patch has a 1.2% standard error so Heimer top's real win rate is around 53 to 59 with about 95% probability. If you wanted to win games in soloqueue it would not be a bad idea.
11000 games for Viktor has about a .4% standard error, so call it 1% either way for a 95% confidence and you're looking at 45% to 47% win rate. Woooo, amazing!
Hold on. You are not going to argue about mixed role MMR here?
Not sure what you're saying. Nafta or someone said Viktor was a good pick if you're just going to be mid every once and a while. I said it was not because he loses games and he only starts to win games if you main him. The number of games i used to calculate the standard errors was the number of games champion.gg has recorded for their analysis in that particular role. About 11,000 games played as viktor mid and about 1600 games played as Heimer top. I.E. we're more sure that Viktor mid is weaker than average and still decently sure that Heimer top is above average.
Goumindong it just says there are a lot of bad players on him, nothing else.
Still cant believe people like Goumindong and LimpingGoat are allowed to post here. They're worse than wei2coolman. Like who wants to read their retarded shit on a daily basis? Even lurkers are coming out of the woodwork to say that these people need to be gone, and yet absolutely nothing happens. Well, I guess that makes sense, since watching all 5 major leagues takes up a lot of your time.
Like, literally the only good things about this site are the articles (sometimes) and the guys like Wonderful and 739. The mods don't give a shit about the rest of the site. Chexx told me he was gonna do something with the EUW inhouses but that was 6 months ago and since then I've heard nothing, despite me asking a couple times. Apparently they didn't want any help either to improve their own fucking site. We had a bunch of pretty good players here 2 years ago, but I guess this is what happens when you don't give a shit. "Stricter moderation", suuuuuuure. It's just sad that Neo has said time and time again that they will be doing more quality control, and yet this happens. + Show Spoiler +
User was warned for this post (crappy and annoying LL meme)
IMO deciding which champion to play in Solo Q should come down mostly to what you enjoy playing. I know it's clichéd but you really will have to put a large amount of time on any champion you want to get good at and this will be much easier if you're enjoying yourself. If the champion seems interesting, start playing it and if you enjoy playing it stick with it. No champion is so bad you can't carry with it.
On October 19 2015 06:16 loSleb wrote: So if from now on I only play Heimerdinger top, I will get challenger because he has above 50% winrate? You are literally beyond saving.
1600 games evaluated this patch has a 1.2% standard error so Heimer top's real win rate is around 53 to 59 with about 95% probability. If you wanted to win games in soloqueue it would not be a bad idea.
11000 games for Viktor has about a .4% standard error, so call it 1% either way for a 95% confidence and you're looking at 45% to 47% win rate. Woooo, amazing!
Hold on. You are not going to argue about mixed role MMR here?
Not sure what you're saying. Nafta or someone said Viktor was a good pick if you're just going to be mid every once and a while. I said it was not because he loses games and he only starts to win games if you main him. The number of games i used to calculate the standard errors was the number of games champion.gg has recorded for their analysis in that particular role. About 11,000 games played as viktor mid and about 1600 games played as Heimer top. I.E. we're more sure that Viktor mid is weaker than average and still decently sure that Heimer top is above average.
So you're saying that, as of champion select finishing, no team composition has an advantage over another? That, as of champion select, no team of players in ranked has an advantage over any other?
An easy example. There are 5 players on team A all playing their mains and team B has 5 AD mains. Does team A or B have a better chance to win given the players mixed role mmr is the same? I would suggest that team a has a better win chance and that they will acquire gold because of that. What if team a has good counter picks and so easily wins lane. Does that effect the gold acquisition? Of course all that does.
That is why it's hard to say that the win % with Viktor is the impact. That doesn't mean we can't generalize from very specific summary stats but it does mean that the value we are looking at is a mix of the indication and the impact with no clear way to disentangle the two.
If we don't care about disentangling them then you should be good to go. But you should still disentangle the effect of the dragons.
On October 19 2015 06:16 loSleb wrote: So if from now on I only play Heimerdinger top, I will get challenger because he has above 50% winrate? You are literally beyond saving.
1600 games evaluated this patch has a 1.2% standard error so Heimer top's real win rate is around 53 to 59 with about 95% probability. If you wanted to win games in soloqueue it would not be a bad idea.
11000 games for Viktor has about a .4% standard error, so call it 1% either way for a 95% confidence and you're looking at 45% to 47% win rate. Woooo, amazing!
Hold on. You are not going to argue about mixed role MMR here?
Not sure what you're saying. Nafta or someone said Viktor was a good pick if you're just going to be mid every once and a while. I said it was not because he loses games and he only starts to win games if you main him. The number of games i used to calculate the standard errors was the number of games champion.gg has recorded for their analysis in that particular role. About 11,000 games played as viktor mid and about 1600 games played as Heimer top. I.E. we're more sure that Viktor mid is weaker than average and still decently sure that Heimer top is above average.
Viktor has a lower then expected winrate because
-people build him wrong -people try and force things with him early, you just need to farm and scale -his laser can be finicky -he was just the most pick/banned laner in lcs so a lot of people randomly pick him when they have to off-role. (and offrolers will naturally have way below 50% winrate overall.) -a thousand other reasons that the winrate alone isn't a good answer to any question except "what is viktors winrate"
He is a safe, strong mid laner, who scales really hard, and has plenty of tools to outplay and turn around ganks. Once you get the hang of his e, his play pattern is super simple, and through his mobility there's lots of room to improve over your games.
Winrate really has nothing to do with this, maybe you should try actually playing the game rather then just giving statistics a bad name
On October 19 2015 07:09 Nos- wrote: SOMEONE END THIS
It's hard to have any reasonable discussion at all when people start discrediting anything you say with baseless statistics, and act like they have some crazy innate overriding understanding of the game because they looked at champion.gg
On October 19 2015 07:30 Amarok wrote: Also "What the best champ to carry with in Solo Q?" should be put in the "What is a tank?" tier of questions.
"What's best to carry with" is a bit of a misnomer, because you can carry with anything if you're good, or fail to carry with anything if you're bad. There are definitely some champions that are stronger then others in each meta if you have the right builds/understanding of them, and getting good players opinions on those can be really helpful. Even among us, we often find some strong build/champion and have some crazy winrate right off the bat for the next patch or two abusing that. Sadly it's kind of hard when people feel the need to try and overrule these discussions with random statistics.
Winrate is not the only metric that matters for indicating champion strength.
It is a metric and it is an important one. But it is not the only important one.
This is the standpoint of basically everyone on this forum, as well as Riots balance team. We have many sensible, logical reasons to think this way.
A champion can be really strong in specific team comps, but very weak in most others, making it too strong in instances where it is strong but weak when looked at overall.
A champion can be too strong in a specific matchup, but weak overall, making it very strong if picked at the correct time despite a low overall winrate.
A champion can be really strong but difficult to play, or just different to play in comparison to other champions. This can make a very strong champion have a low winrate.
A champion can be really strong with a specific item or rune setup that is not popular, which can skew winrate.
Basically, because there are real people playing the game, they play the game differently from each other and are not perfect robots in a vacuum, looking at the winrate for everybody is not a perfect indication of whether or not the champion is strong on an individual. It is one of several important factors, but when you look at it as the only one you make errors.
This only winrate metric argument is one that you have made several times on this forum. It is a bad argument and it makes everybody think you don't really play the game, and just tunnelvision on numbers without actually understanding things. There are times when statistics improve the quality of a discussion, but this is not one of them.
I would like you to please stop making this argument.
On October 19 2015 07:17 Fildun wrote: Still cant believe people like Goumindong and LimpingGoat are allowed to post here. They're worse than wei2coolman. Like who wants to read their retarded shit on a daily basis? Even lurkers are coming out of the woodwork to say that these people need to be gone, and yet absolutely nothing happens.
I actually think Goumindong is one of the least stressful to read regular posters on LL, just because 1.) His reading comprehension isn't terrible*, and 2.) He doesn't intentionally make ridiculous assumptions about what others are trying to say just because they didn't specify otherwise*.
Whether he adds anything productive (for example, this post does not) is more questionable I suppose, though I would say that he generally does in the form of substantiation.
*refer to most people responding to Goumindong on this topic for examples
On October 19 2015 06:26 Fildun wrote: Alright, so over 11000 games of Viktor, counting every player, he has a winrate of around 46%. This helps us in what way, exactly, to determine whether or not we should play him in soloq?
On October 19 2015 07:06 Goumindong wrote: Not sure what you're saying. Nafta or someone said Viktor was a good pick if you're just going to be mid every once and a while. I said it was not because he loses games and he only starts to win games if you main him. The number of games i used to calculate the standard errors was the number of games champion.gg has recorded for their analysis in that particular role. About 11,000 games played as viktor mid and about 1600 games played as Heimer top. I.E. we're more sure that Viktor mid is weaker than average and still decently sure that Heimer top is above average.
Viktor has a lower then expected winrate because
-people build him wrong -people try and force things with him early, you just need to farm and scale -his laser can be finicky -he was just the most pick/banned laner in lcs so a lot of people randomly pick him when they have to off-role. (and offrolers will naturally have way below 50% winrate overall.) -a thousand other reasons that the winrate alone isn't a good answer to any question except "what is viktors winrate"
He is a safe, strong mid laner, who scales really hard, and has plenty of tools to outplay and turn around ganks. Once you get the hang of his e, his play pattern is super simple, and through his mobility there's lots of room to improve over your games.
A large part of Gou's argument substantiation here is that Viktor takes on average 125 games to crack an even winrate with, a number that is substantially above average. Building on this, there are many champions who take a much lower number of games (on average) to become proficient enough with to crack and even winrate with, and that those champions would probably be better for solo queue off-role play.
Of course the effects of individual playstyle and proficiency dominate the effects of this suggestion, but in the context of someone asking "what's a good mid to occasionally play in solo queue?", which is what Goumindong is responding to, this is a very reasonable response.
All of this said, I agree with Ketara on basically all points.
On October 19 2015 07:17 Fildun wrote: Still cant believe people like Goumindong and LimpingGoat are allowed to post here. They're worse than wei2coolman. Like who wants to read their retarded shit on a daily basis? Even lurkers are coming out of the woodwork to say that these people need to be gone, and yet absolutely nothing happens.
I actually think Goumindong is one of the least stressful to read regular posters on LL, just because 1.) His reading comprehension isn't terrible*, and 2.) He doesn't intentionally make ridiculous assumptions about what others are trying to say just because they didn't specify otherwise*.
Whether he adds anything productive (for example, this post does not) is more questionable I suppose, though I would say that he generally does in the form of substantiation.
*refer to most people responding to Goumindong on this topic for examples
On October 19 2015 06:26 Fildun wrote: Alright, so over 11000 games of Viktor, counting every player, he has a winrate of around 46%. This helps us in what way, exactly, to determine whether or not we should play him in soloq?
On October 19 2015 07:06 Goumindong wrote: Not sure what you're saying. Nafta or someone said Viktor was a good pick if you're just going to be mid every once and a while. I said it was not because he loses games and he only starts to win games if you main him. The number of games i used to calculate the standard errors was the number of games champion.gg has recorded for their analysis in that particular role. About 11,000 games played as viktor mid and about 1600 games played as Heimer top. I.E. we're more sure that Viktor mid is weaker than average and still decently sure that Heimer top is above average.
Viktor has a lower then expected winrate because
-people build him wrong -people try and force things with him early, you just need to farm and scale -his laser can be finicky -he was just the most pick/banned laner in lcs so a lot of people randomly pick him when they have to off-role. (and offrolers will naturally have way below 50% winrate overall.) -a thousand other reasons that the winrate alone isn't a good answer to any question except "what is viktors winrate"
He is a safe, strong mid laner, who scales really hard, and has plenty of tools to outplay and turn around ganks. Once you get the hang of his e, his play pattern is super simple, and through his mobility there's lots of room to improve over your games.
A large part of Gou's argument substantiation here is that Viktor takes on average 125 games to crack an even winrate with, a number that is substantially above average. Building on this, there are many champions who take a much lower number of games (on average) to become proficient enough with to crack and even winrate with, and that those champions would probably be better for solo queue off-role play.
Of course the effects of individual playstyle and proficiency dominate the effects of this suggestion, but in the context of someone asking "what's a good mid to occasionally play in solo queue?", which is what Goumindong is responding to, this is a very reasonable response.
All of this said, I agree with Ketara on basically all points.
This viktor post alone is just mildly annoying, he's ignoring lots of factors and acting like the winrate is the end all of the situaiton. It's the fact that every time any discussion vaguely relating to which champions are good, he immediately comes out with statistics and derails the entire discussion, and if you try and ignore him he just keeps posting it until someone bites. And this has been happening for like, many months now.
It's completely wrecking any chance to have any discussion, at least if this was reddit people would have gotten bored of it by now and it would be downvoted but because of the forum format it's just filling every discussion with bait until someone bites and the discussion goes to shit. The great thing about tl is it use to be such a great place to get in depth advice from high elo players, and that gets completely derailed when random people start disagreeing with people with evidence like "winrates" which just derail everything and can't even lead to an actual debate outside of some philosophical argument about how to use stats.
It (meaning the general issue of people being able to just disagree with very qualified on the subject people, purely out of principle) has driven a bunch of the great, very good at the game, helpful posters away, which was what made the discussions here so valuable, and now these threads are just dumb arguments, when before they were at least 50% really valuable bits of information.
On October 19 2015 07:17 Fildun wrote: Still cant believe people like Goumindong and LimpingGoat are allowed to post here. They're worse than wei2coolman. Like who wants to read their retarded shit on a daily basis? Even lurkers are coming out of the woodwork to say that these people need to be gone, and yet absolutely nothing happens.
I actually think Goumindong is one of the least stressful to read regular posters on LL, just because 1.) His reading comprehension isn't terrible*, and 2.) He doesn't intentionally make ridiculous assumptions about what others are trying to say just because they didn't specify otherwise*.
Whether he adds anything productive (for example, this post does not) is more questionable I suppose, though I would say that he generally does in the form of substantiation.
*refer to most people responding to Goumindong on this topic for examples
His form is substantiation is almost universally in the form of bad theory / math though. Trying to argue with him is like arguing with a rock - he tries to sound really smart with jargon and math formula, but then you realize he has not even the basic understanding of what he is saying. He just furiously google things then pretend to be the expert.
That being said, I think the ban was a little heavy-handed. Nevertheless, it's probably for the best to take a break.
Repeatedly making game theory statements that are blatantly wrong is supposed to be bannable, this is just the first time in my memory that somebody has actually been banned for it.
Let's move on.
Talk about Lux IMO. She's not the #1 winrate mid anymore WHAT HAPPEN???
On October 19 2015 08:25 Ketara wrote: Repeatedly making game theory statements that are blatantly wrong is supposed to be bannable, this is just the first time in my memory that somebody has actually been banned for it.
Let's move on.
Talk about Lux IMO. She's not the #1 winrate mid anymore WHAT HAPPEN???
I'm still not sure how she got there, although i have been wrecked multiple times by 20 stack mejai's lux's.
I'd guess people just remembered how to play against her a bit agian though, (started watching for roams more and not underestimating her shield etc) which everyone seemed to have forgotten
On October 19 2015 08:25 Ketara wrote: Repeatedly making game theory statements that are blatantly wrong is supposed to be bannable, this is just the first time in my memory that somebody has actually been banned for it.
Let's move on.
Talk about Lux IMO. She's not the #1 winrate mid anymore WHAT HAPPEN???
Pretty sure she is still very high up there? Her win rate barely changed.
Also I am actually more interested in what happened to Veigar.
On October 19 2015 08:25 Ketara wrote: Repeatedly making game theory statements that are blatantly wrong is supposed to be bannable, this is just the first time in my memory that somebody has actually been banned for it.
Let's move on.
Talk about Lux IMO. She's not the #1 winrate mid anymore WHAT HAPPEN???
Pretty sure she is still very high up there? Her win rate barely changed.
Also I am actually more interested in what happened to Veigar.
Froggen did
More seriously, the main driving force behind new champions seeping into soloq is pro play, and we had basically no games to learn off of for ages. I imagine he would have been a staple almost immediately after the buffs in 5.18, combined with how his e is great against melee bruisers, who all also got buffed right after most pro play stopped, and he's been a very high priority for most teams since the first games of worlds.
Also i believe he was very popular in high diamond since the change, just took ages to propagate down, as usual.
Darius gets a lot more priority than Fiora in my games, don't think she has been picked or banned in my last 10 games. Don't really understand why, she's super strong.
Regarding Lux, I just think that a lot of people just picked her back up again, so winrate probably dropped for a bit because of it.
On October 19 2015 09:05 TheHumanSensation wrote: Also Ketara, if you aren't aware, Lux has been banned for the rest of the tournament due to a gragas bug.
On October 19 2015 08:25 Ketara wrote: Repeatedly making game theory statements that are blatantly wrong is supposed to be bannable, this is just the first time in my memory that somebody has actually been banned for it.
Let's move on.
Talk about Lux IMO. She's not the #1 winrate mid anymore WHAT HAPPEN???
Vaporized got banned for insisting Frozen Mallet and Rylais in the same build were great buys for Sejuani. That one person that refused to consider support WW as anything but OP.... All I can thing of.
On October 19 2015 09:03 Ketara wrote: Fiora doesn't fit the mold of makes Lux OP tho.
Garen and the rest of them are bad now? Weren't there like 6?
Kayle is good against Fiora and Darius too.
Oh that was more responding to the question about veigar
Original 4 were garen morde skarner darius, and gangplank happened to get reworked just before, as did fiora, both as solo things.
Garen was never really competitively viable, they basically just reworked old garen and (at least after the number tuning) he's basically the same as before, slightly rescaled. Skarner got gutted.
Morde fiora darius gangplank are all still pick/ban in competitive
On October 19 2015 09:05 TheHumanSensation wrote: Also Ketara, if you aren't aware, Lux has been banned for the rest of the tournament due to a gragas bug.
On October 19 2015 09:05 TheHumanSensation wrote: Also Ketara, if you aren't aware, Lux has been banned for the rest of the tournament due to a gragas bug.
edit: not sure why I quoted killerdoge
Wait wtf?
What's the bug?
The ancient one in a million, use a reactivateable ability (gragas q, lux e etc) only for it to not properly appear in game and the skill then be uncastable forever.
Been around for years, but apparently because it shows up in a worlds game, riot has to pretend it's not just a part of the game at this point and go full shen on it.
Main result is the team that's second pick is now even more screwed, as with elise being banned they can't rely on getting the second of reksai/gragas which are the three strongest junglers atm afaik.
Basically even more pressure to make teams let some of the "op's" through, like gp fiora veigar elise tahm lulu etc. Going to be interesting to see how people play around it.
Pick ban strats in the semis are going to be really interesting.
On October 19 2015 09:05 TheHumanSensation wrote: Also Ketara, if you aren't aware, Lux has been banned for the rest of the tournament due to a gragas bug.
edit: not sure why I quoted killerdoge
Wait wtf?
What's the bug?
The ancient one in a million, use a reactivateable ability (gragas q, lux e etc) only for it to not properly appear in game and the skill then be uncastable forever.
Been around for years, but apparently because it shows up in a worlds game, riot has to pretend it's not just a part of the game at this point and go full shen on it.
On October 19 2015 09:05 TheHumanSensation wrote: Also Ketara, if you aren't aware, Lux has been banned for the rest of the tournament due to a gragas bug.
edit: not sure why I quoted killerdoge
No one picked her before the ban though.
I'm only actually at like day4 of vod watching, so thanks for that I wasn't 100% confident in making that claim but was fairly sure of it.
On October 19 2015 09:05 TheHumanSensation wrote: Also Ketara, if you aren't aware, Lux has been banned for the rest of the tournament due to a gragas bug.
edit: not sure why I quoted killerdoge
Wait wtf?
What's the bug?
The ancient one in a million, use a reactivateable ability (gragas q, lux e etc) only for it to not properly appear in game and the skill then be uncastable forever.
Been around for years, but apparently because it shows up in a worlds game, riot has to pretend it's not just a part of the game at this point and go full shen on it.
Oh hadn't realised there were already articles about it.
I think that article is a bit guilty of going into the writing room with an agenda already in mind though. It's not neccesarily purely going to add another advantage to blue side. If anything, throwing more complexity into the draft by making jungle an even more heavily contested role, in addition to top, just makes the draft phase more complex and rewards the teams which navigate it better, which in turn should lead us closer to a 50% split.
It'll also probably increase variety which is good for viewers, so that's something :p
Should see more teams jut letting lots of op picks through now, since it's bascially impossible to ban all of them.
On October 19 2015 09:26 Ketara wrote: Wow.
That's kind of amazing.
I don't think I've ever had that bug happen to me as a Lux.
It's rare. Like, super super rare.
There's maybe a reddit thread about it once every 5-6 months when it happens to someone who uses things like r/lol. It could have happened literally any pro game in the last very long time, just so happened to be at worlds so riot feel the need to do something. I guess they feel that if they just do nothing, then people watching worlds will assume that riot just accepts that league is full of bugs and that's obviously a bad pr message, but still.
A guy supporting me with Lux had it happen during pre-6 laning a few days ago. We ended up surrendering at 20 because it was unplayable for him and the lane doesn't go too well 1v2 (and the others weren't doing hot either). That was the first time I saw it though.
I honestly think they're just genuinely terrified of it negatively effecting the integrity of the tournament. They were lucky the Fnatic/EDG game was pretty close and the series ended up being very one sided. All it takes is for someone at Riot to say "Imagine if that happened in Game 5 of the final with one team 5k gold up at 30 minutes, then the other teams wins a remake" to spook the horses bad enough to have Graggy banned.
the fact they banned the champs even though they have a fix ready is pure BS though. e: how appropriate, haven't posted in here since it moved out of tl.net subforum and my profile her*cough*champion*cough* is gragas
On October 19 2015 10:38 misirlou wrote: the fact they banned the champs even though they have a fix ready is pure BS though. e: how appropriate, haven't posted in here since it moved out of tl.net subforum and my profile her*cough*champion*cough* is gragas
They'd have to compile a completely unique patch though.
Live servers are already several patches past 5.18, so they'd need to make a new fork of 5.18, then have it played for the first time in live matches in the semi finals. Most patches get two weeks+ of a good 40 million people testing them before they get anywhere near the pros, there's no way they could test a completely new build internally in a few days, and not risk some even bigger bug appearing in the middle of semis and completely breaking the game.
On October 19 2015 12:32 suicideyear wrote: is the hotfix live at least for non-tournament realm?
i've seen the lux version of the bug happen before
Afaik they haven't actually "fixed" it yet, just "identified a cause," unless i missed a new post. And besides, it's no riskier to play gragas or lux then it has been for months. They'll probably just slot it into thee next patch if they have it done.
On October 19 2015 10:38 misirlou wrote: the fact they banned the champs even though they have a fix ready is pure BS though. e: how appropriate, haven't posted in here since it moved out of tl.net subforum and my profile her*cough*champion*cough* is gragas
Errr...
Having a fix does not mean the fix will work, nor that it wouldn't introduce further bugs.
I'll probably work on my Rek'Sai guide once Tahm gets nerfed and stops being freelo but for time being - Cinderhulk/Titanic/Deadman's is my favorite thing in the world atm.
On October 19 2015 12:54 AlterKot wrote: I'll probably work on my Rek'Sai guide once Tahm gets nerfed and stops being freelo but for time being - Cinderhulk/Titanic/Deadman's is my favorite thing in the world atm.
It would be nice if someone can make a revenue-sharing guide-hosting website. Similar to goldper10, but revenue is continuously being shared on an on-going basis. This will promote people to write better guides as well as keeping them updated.
On October 19 2015 13:07 Ketara wrote: Man I wish I could get paid for the Lux guide.
Thing took at least 40 hours to make.
I don't even get a flair on my strategy forum posts.
QQ
Incentives can be nice for guides since they do take a long time to make and update. But getting a host with ad support yourself can be very hard and very hard to monetize due to its lone, obscure location.
Unfortunately goldper10 basically only pays you for the first week of traffic. It's not bad for articles, but for guides it's bad.
On October 19 2015 13:07 Ketara wrote: Man I wish I could get paid for the Lux guide.
Thing took at least 40 hours to make.
I don't even get a flair on my strategy forum posts.
QQ
Incentives can be nice for guides since they do take a long time to make and update. But getting a host with ad support yourself can be very hard and very hard to monetize due to its lone, obscure location.
Unfortunately goldper10 basically only pays you for the first week of traffic. It's not bad for articles, but for guides it's bad.
I mean, the other issue there is a pro will just make a vague guide and get 100x the traffic of anyone else just from name value. Or alternatively a bad guide that looks pretty and gets updated daily gets put over a really good guide by some masters/challenger one trick pony which only gets occasional updates when some big thing changes.
Both problems that other guide sites tend to get wrecked by, but I imagine they wouldn't be helped by adding a monetary incentive.
On October 19 2015 13:23 Fildun wrote: The guide market is also pretty saturated with things like solomid, probuilds and mobafire existing, so I don't think it's that great of an idea.
Ketara, since when do you deserve a flair on strategy posts :p
On October 19 2015 13:23 Fildun wrote: The guide market is also pretty saturated with things like solomid, probuilds and mobafire existing, so I don't think it's that great of an idea.
Ketara, since when do you deserve a flair on strategy posts :p
On October 19 2015 13:23 Fildun wrote: The guide market is also pretty saturated with things like solomid, probuilds and mobafire existing, so I don't think it's that great of an idea.
Ketara, since when do you deserve a flair on strategy posts :p
Fildun plz
Fite me.
You can't hit people two leagues lower then yourself
In other news, some people are claiming that Kugimiya Rie is going to voice Annie in the Japanese version of the game. Lulu will be voiced by Yuuki Aoi (think Victorique, Kaname Madoka).
Edit: might be Kadawaki Ai for Annie (think Ilyasviel)
On October 19 2015 14:03 Sufficiency wrote: In other news, some people are claiming that Kugimiya Rie is going to voice Annie in the Japanese version of the game. Lulu will be voiced by Yuuki Aoi (think Victorique, Kaname Madoka).
Edit: might be Kadawaki Ai for Annie (think Ilyasviel)
On October 19 2015 14:03 Sufficiency wrote: In other news, some people are claiming that Kugimiya Rie is going to voice Annie in the Japanese version of the game. Lulu will be voiced by Yuuki Aoi (think Victorique, Kaname Madoka).
Edit: might be Kadawaki Ai for Annie (think Ilyasviel)
If Rie K is signed as a League voice actor the next champion or rework will most definitely be a tsundere.
On October 19 2015 12:54 AlterKot wrote: I'll probably work on my Rek'Sai guide once Tahm gets nerfed and stops being freelo but for time being - Cinderhulk/Titanic/Deadman's is my favorite thing in the world atm.
Lets see if you can beat 260 views 0 comments!
You need to create an obviously stupid argument in the general thread and play it out in a way that the usual candidates react to it. Then a mod will guide them to your thread. I also recommend doing some wrong math to lure in Ketara.
But I do indeed feel kinda bad for you. Putting in work for a champion you obviously have experience with and noone really cares. Really demotivates other people to write something. The sad thing is, if it were a worse guide people would respond.
On October 19 2015 12:54 AlterKot wrote: I'll probably work on my Rek'Sai guide once Tahm gets nerfed and stops being freelo but for time being - Cinderhulk/Titanic/Deadman's is my favorite thing in the world atm.
Lets see if you can beat 260 views 0 comments!
You need to create an obviously stupid argument in the general thread and play it out in a way that the usual candidates react to it. Then a mod will guide them to your thread. I also recommend doing some wrong math to lure in Ketara.
But I do indeed feel kinda bad for you. Putting in work for a champion you obviously have experience with and noone really cares. Really demotivates other people to write something. The sad thing is, if it were a worse guide people would respond.
Most people said they read it, thought it sounded correct and didn't feel like they had anything to add
Clearly need to have several controversial personal ideals, which aren't explained in thread, for people to call you out on to stimulate discussion :p
Either way, i didn't post it to get attention, more to get my own thoughts on paper for people to givefeedback on, and to procrastinate about an assignment.
Still slightly disappointed at the lack of discussion though If anyone has any questions I love talking about tf
Maybe I should just go spam my way back into top 60 lolskill, so i can have some tagline for clickbait title
On October 19 2015 12:54 AlterKot wrote: I'll probably work on my Rek'Sai guide once Tahm gets nerfed and stops being freelo but for time being - Cinderhulk/Titanic/Deadman's is my favorite thing in the world atm.
Lets see if you can beat 260 views 0 comments!
You need to create an obviously stupid argument in the general thread and play it out in a way that the usual candidates react to it. Then a mod will guide them to your thread. I also recommend doing some wrong math to lure in Ketara.
But I do indeed feel kinda bad for you. Putting in work for a champion you obviously have experience with and noone really cares. Really demotivates other people to write something. The sad thing is, if it were a worse guide people would respond.
Most people said they read it, thought it sounded correct and didn't feel like they had anything to add
Clearly need to have several controversial personal ideals, which aren't explained in thread, for people to call you out on to stimulate discussion :p
Either way, i didn't post it to get attention, more to get my own thoughts on paper for people to givefeedback on, and to procrastinate about an assignment.
Still slightly disappointed at the lack of discussion though If anyone has any questions I love talking about tf
Maybe I should just go spam my way back into top 60 lolskill, so i can have some tagline for clickbait title
Also almost nobody on this forum plays TF, so not much discussion from personal experience can be had. Today I wanted to play him in a couple normals to learn him, but then I didn't get mid a single time, so I cant give feedback yet.
On October 19 2015 12:54 AlterKot wrote: I'll probably work on my Rek'Sai guide once Tahm gets nerfed and stops being freelo but for time being - Cinderhulk/Titanic/Deadman's is my favorite thing in the world atm.
Lets see if you can beat 260 views 0 comments!
You need to create an obviously stupid argument in the general thread and play it out in a way that the usual candidates react to it. Then a mod will guide them to your thread. I also recommend doing some wrong math to lure in Ketara.
But I do indeed feel kinda bad for you. Putting in work for a champion you obviously have experience with and noone really cares. Really demotivates other people to write something. The sad thing is, if it were a worse guide people would respond.
Most people said they read it, thought it sounded correct and didn't feel like they had anything to add
Clearly need to have several controversial personal ideals, which aren't explained in thread, for people to call you out on to stimulate discussion :p
Either way, i didn't post it to get attention, more to get my own thoughts on paper for people to givefeedback on, and to procrastinate about an assignment.
Still slightly disappointed at the lack of discussion though If anyone has any questions I love talking about tf
Maybe I should just go spam my way back into top 60 lolskill, so i can have some tagline for clickbait title
Also almost nobody on this forum plays TF, so not much discussion from personal experience can be had. Today I wanted to play him in a couple normals to learn him, but then I didn't get mid a single time, so I cant give feedback yet.
If you're playing normals anyway couldn't you just use teambuilder?
On October 19 2015 12:54 AlterKot wrote: I'll probably work on my Rek'Sai guide once Tahm gets nerfed and stops being freelo but for time being - Cinderhulk/Titanic/Deadman's is my favorite thing in the world atm.
Lets see if you can beat 260 views 0 comments!
You need to create an obviously stupid argument in the general thread and play it out in a way that the usual candidates react to it. Then a mod will guide them to your thread. I also recommend doing some wrong math to lure in Ketara.
But I do indeed feel kinda bad for you. Putting in work for a champion you obviously have experience with and noone really cares. Really demotivates other people to write something. The sad thing is, if it were a worse guide people would respond.
Most people said they read it, thought it sounded correct and didn't feel like they had anything to add
Clearly need to have several controversial personal ideals, which aren't explained in thread, for people to call you out on to stimulate discussion :p
Either way, i didn't post it to get attention, more to get my own thoughts on paper for people to givefeedback on, and to procrastinate about an assignment.
Still slightly disappointed at the lack of discussion though If anyone has any questions I love talking about tf
Maybe I should just go spam my way back into top 60 lolskill, so i can have some tagline for clickbait title
Also almost nobody on this forum plays TF, so not much discussion from personal experience can be had. Today I wanted to play him in a couple normals to learn him, but then I didn't get mid a single time, so I cant give feedback yet.
If you're playing normals anyway couldn't you just use teambuilder?
I queued up for teambuilder as TF mid, wait time over 30 minutes.
Also @Ketara, sorry I totally forgot, I'm gonna give some now.
On October 19 2015 12:54 AlterKot wrote: I'll probably work on my Rek'Sai guide once Tahm gets nerfed and stops being freelo but for time being - Cinderhulk/Titanic/Deadman's is my favorite thing in the world atm.
Lets see if you can beat 260 views 0 comments!
You need to create an obviously stupid argument in the general thread and play it out in a way that the usual candidates react to it. Then a mod will guide them to your thread. I also recommend doing some wrong math to lure in Ketara.
But I do indeed feel kinda bad for you. Putting in work for a champion you obviously have experience with and noone really cares. Really demotivates other people to write something. The sad thing is, if it were a worse guide people would respond.
Most people said they read it, thought it sounded correct and didn't feel like they had anything to add
Clearly need to have several controversial personal ideals, which aren't explained in thread, for people to call you out on to stimulate discussion :p
Either way, i didn't post it to get attention, more to get my own thoughts on paper for people to givefeedback on, and to procrastinate about an assignment.
Still slightly disappointed at the lack of discussion though If anyone has any questions I love talking about tf
Maybe I should just go spam my way back into top 60 lolskill, so i can have some tagline for clickbait title
Also almost nobody on this forum plays TF, so not much discussion from personal experience can be had. Today I wanted to play him in a couple normals to learn him, but then I didn't get mid a single time, so I cant give feedback yet.
If you're playing normals anyway couldn't you just use teambuilder?
I queued up for teambuilder as TF mid, wait time over 30 minutes.
Also @Ketara, sorry I totally forgot, I'm gonna give some now.
Today I played against a Kennen support that bought mana potions. I love people who play champions without knowing how they work just because they saw them in competitive. No wonder multiple meta champions have low winrate.
From my perspective, TB is a failure due to its long queue time. But I could be biased because my MMR is probably pretty high (not bragging, but high plat is probably top 5%? So my normal Elo is presumably similar) so it may have a huge impact on queue time.
Not 100% confident that ranked TB will be any better, despite the differences.
You're missing the point. The beauty of TB is that you get to chose the champion and position you play. If you want to play OPMage27 in mid, you're making the choice to be in a long line.
On October 20 2015 02:15 Sufficiency wrote: From my perspective, TB is a failure due to its long queue time. But I could be biased because my MMR is probably pretty high (not bragging, but high plat is probably top 5%? So my normal Elo is presumably similar) so it may have a huge impact on queue time.
Not 100% confident that ranked TB will be any better, despite the differences.
the queue time being long is due to two separate things, firstly in current teambuilder you can't specify to play 2+ positions. it also has a smaller number of players playing it. both of these issues will be fixed when it goes to ranked TB because everyone who plays ranked has to play ranked TB and they are fixing the position selection issue with 'fill'
On October 20 2015 02:24 krndandaman wrote: as someone who is pretty good at copy pasting "[role]" I get the role I want 99% of the time in blind pick (if I wanted ofc). the other 1% being guys who just ignore you and lock it in.
also doesn't TB have separate MMR? I only tried it like 3 times and I got put against silver/bronze players as a dia. needless to say it wasn't balanced at all lol.
I think TB's MMR adjusts fairly quickly after you play a few games.
Also IIRC my games are always me and sometimes another plat, then some golds. I don't think I've met any bronze players and probably very few silvers (I don't check ranks, but bronze and low silver are easy to spot in game).
On October 20 2015 02:24 krndandaman wrote: as someone who is pretty good at copy pasting "[role]" I get the role I want 99% of the time in blind pick (if I wanted ofc). the other 1% being guys who just ignore you and lock it in.
also doesn't TB have separate MMR? I only tried it like 3 times and I got put against silver/bronze players as a dia. needless to say it wasn't balanced at all lol.
According to Lyte TB is adjusted after your MMR playing that role, champion and normals MMR.
A guy is claiming that on mumu liadries does double damage with froheart. Pretty sure he just wants mumu to get froheart because I have no idea why or how it would work like this. Anyone know?
On October 20 2015 03:04 JimmiC wrote: A guy is claiming that on mumu liadries does double damage with froheart. Pretty sure he just wants mumu to get froheart because I have no idea why or how it would work like this. Anyone know?
if FH still does an AoE slow aura then i think it'd work based on that principle
On October 20 2015 03:04 JimmiC wrote: A guy is claiming that on mumu liadries does double damage with froheart. Pretty sure he just wants mumu to get froheart because I have no idea why or how it would work like this. Anyone know?
On October 20 2015 15:43 killerdog wrote: Wouldn't rylias do the same thing but better?
disclaimer, do not mumu
Depends if you're going a full tank build that is trying to add a bit of damage, in which case you already have a FH, or if you're going tanky AP, where you'll have a Rylais.
I have a buddy who loves 3's and wants me to play. I was dicking around a bit and it's kinda fun. I was wonder if anyone who does it could give me a quick rundown of the current meta, and any general tips on the different builds or whatever. thanks.
found this off reddit. its pretty new/small but useful. lets you see a heatmap of teams at X minutes. pretty useful for planning invades.
What I want is a site like lolnexus that shows you data on the opponents in your current game. Specifically, it takes the purple side's top laner's recent top games on purple, and shows you where they are at 1:00 and 2:00; the purple jungler's recent purple jungle games and where he is at 1:00 and 2:00; and so on.
found this off reddit. its pretty new/small but useful. lets you see a heatmap of teams at X minutes. pretty useful for planning invades.
What I want is a site like lolnexus that shows you data on the opponents in your current game. Specifically, it takes the purple side's top laner's recent top games on purple, and shows you where they are at 1:00 and 2:00; the purple jungler's recent purple jungle games and where he is at 1:00 and 2:00; and so on.
I'd like a site that lets me track who uses that site and ddoses them so I can have easy ganks.
On October 22 2015 03:32 JimmiC wrote: I have a buddy who loves 3's and wants me to play. I was dicking around a bit and it's kinda fun. I was wonder if anyone who does it could give me a quick rundown of the current meta, and any general tips on the different builds or whatever. thanks.
i've been playing it a bit, particularly to get my bronze friend a border/ranked rewards.
you have a few options
-solo lanes with jungler. usually a bruiser top, ap bot. jungler with cc/decent early game. exhaust instead of flash is an option for jungler.
-no jungle with botlane. bruiser toplaner with tanky support and adc bot. support doesn't take flash and takes exhaust/ignite. (top or support taking smite is an option). typical supports are braum maokai leona nunu etc typical ad's are vayne sivir graves
-no jungle with botlane. self reliant ap toplaner that either brings damage or utility (diana/ekko with smite are great for powerfarming and becoming a beast, lulu/morg are great for utility and good waveclear). adc.
-no jungle with botlane. ad bruiser top, ap carry with support.
from what i've seen, the strongest comp and the one many top challenger teams prefer is the 3rd one (utility or smite ap dmg toplaner with adc/sup). however this one is a bit more challenging to play since you need to take advantage early or you get outscaled. support needs to be very proactive in his movements and make sure he can keep tabs on enemy jungler constantly. with proper play, you'll be able to push in both lanes (if they're playing sololane+jungler) and take control of the map.
as for builds you generally want items that make immediate impact since the game mode snowballs much harder.
thats just the basics.
i'd be down to get competitive in 3s if we had any other players interested.
honestly not that hard to get high diamond/challenger if all 3 are around diamond soloq.
I know we always give Riot a lot of flak for using buzzwords. Then I saw the new units introduction to Legacy of the Void and pretty much every single new unit / upgrade is followed by the phrase "micro-intensive" or "new micro options".
On October 22 2015 11:07 Sufficiency wrote: I know we always give Riot a lot of flak for using buzzwords. Then I saw the new units introduction to Legacy of the Void and pretty much every single new unit / upgrade is followed by the phrase "micro-intensive" or "new micro options".
But do they preserve the competitive integrity? Are those micro-intensive units fulfilling your end game fantasy?
I really Hope riot gets rid of promos or changes them next season. I shouldn't be the only gold 1 in a game full of plat 3 and 4 players for 10 straight games because of promo Rng. I must have lost my gold 3/2 promos about 15 times this season and it took me 3 try's to finally get plat. And I think I only got it because playing at mid plat is easier to carry then gold 1/plat 5 where everyone is toxic as fuck.
If you lose your promos 2-3 and then immediately get back in then it means you have perfect 50% winratio. If you have to win more than 1 to get back to promos (or 2 or 3 if you went 1-3 or 0-3) then it means your mmr is actually lower than plat. In any case you actually are supposed to have ~plat4 mmr in order to get to plat.
On October 22 2015 20:24 IamPryda wrote: I really Hope riot gets rid of promos or changes them next season. I shouldn't be the only gold 1 in a game full of plat 3 and 4 players for 10 straight games because of promo Rng. I must have lost my gold 3/2 promos about 15 times this season and it took me 3 try's to finally get plat. And I think I only got it because playing at mid plat is easier to carry then gold 1/plat 5 where everyone is toxic as fuck.
I remember them saying they were thinking about keeping promos, but once you beat a division series you kind of "unlocked" it. So you'd only have to do the promo for, say, silver 2 once.
On October 22 2015 20:24 IamPryda wrote: I really Hope riot gets rid of promos or changes them next season. I shouldn't be the only gold 1 in a game full of plat 3 and 4 players for 10 straight games because of promo Rng. I must have lost my gold 3/2 promos about 15 times this season and it took me 3 try's to finally get plat. And I think I only got it because playing at mid plat is easier to carry then gold 1/plat 5 where everyone is toxic as fuck.
I remember them saying they were thinking about keeping promos, but once you beat a division series you kind of "unlocked" it. So you'd only have to do the promo for, say, silver 2 once.
I don't get it. So after season reset you start from the division you ended up or ?
On October 22 2015 20:24 IamPryda wrote: I really Hope riot gets rid of promos or changes them next season. I shouldn't be the only gold 1 in a game full of plat 3 and 4 players for 10 straight games because of promo Rng. I must have lost my gold 3/2 promos about 15 times this season and it took me 3 try's to finally get plat. And I think I only got it because playing at mid plat is easier to carry then gold 1/plat 5 where everyone is toxic as fuck.
I remember them saying they were thinking about keeping promos, but once you beat a division series you kind of "unlocked" it. So you'd only have to do the promo for, say, silver 2 once.
I don't get it. So after season reset you start from the division you ended up or ?
You're prob thinking about provisionals. Those are staying. Rito is removing promos for divisions.
On October 22 2015 21:58 AlterKot wrote: If you lose your promos 2-3 and then immediately get back in then it means you have perfect 50% winratio. If you have to win more than 1 to get back to promos (or 2 or 3 if you went 1-3 or 0-3) then it means your mmr is actually lower than plat. In any case you actually are supposed to have ~plat4 mmr in order to get to plat.
If I am winning 50 percent of my games at an mmr between plat 3/4 but am stuck in gold 1 that's kind of silly. I know that maintaining that mmr it's easy to get back in promos and eventually U will win that 1 extra game but it feels like a chore more then achievement. More so when u carry the guys who are 2 divisions above and even worse when u lose because of the guy 2 divisions above u and have to say damn if this guy got promoted and I can't I must really suck.
Might be a more relevant place to continue your venting.
I'm curious with the slowed down pace of champion releases how many champion reworks will take effect in 2016. I know there's a few that Riot had mentioned they wanted to change (Poppy being one) due to them simply having outdated kits, and I'm sure some of them could stand to get a graphic update as well. If they only release half a dozen champions I'm sure they'll have ample time/resources to rework an additional half dozen as well. Looking at a champion like Singed who looks so passé compared to the new highly mobile Ekko-type champions, as well as his own kit being fairly boring/binary.
Might be a more relevant place to continue your venting.
I'm curious with the slowed down pace of champion releases how many champion reworks will take effect in 2016. I know there's a few that Riot had mentioned they wanted to change (Poppy being one) due to them simply having outdated kits, and I'm sure some of them could stand to get a graphic update as well. If they only release half a dozen champions I'm sure they'll have ample time/resources to rework an additional half dozen as well. Looking at a champion like Singed who looks so passé compared to the new highly mobile Ekko-type champions, as well as his own kit being fairly boring/binary.
Not really Qing I won my promo series just stating id like to see some changes to the ladder next season. To answer your question I think taric and atleast one other champ should have reworks hitting the pbe shorty after worlds.
On October 22 2015 21:58 AlterKot wrote: If you lose your promos 2-3 and then immediately get back in then it means you have perfect 50% winratio. If you have to win more than 1 to get back to promos (or 2 or 3 if you went 1-3 or 0-3) then it means your mmr is actually lower than plat. In any case you actually are supposed to have ~plat4 mmr in order to get to plat.
If I am winning 50 percent of my games at an mmr between plat 3/4 but am stuck in gold 1 that's kind of silly. I know that maintaining that mmr it's easy to get back in promos and eventually U will win that 1 extra game but it feels like a chore more then achievement. More so when u carry the guys who are 2 divisions above and even worse when u lose because of the guy 2 divisions above u and have to say damn if this guy got promoted and I can't I must really suck.
How do you know you are actually plat 4-5 though? Just because you meet them in game?
I would say constantly meeting them in ranked over a long period a time is a decent indication of your mmr. Just as u would have to assume your mmr is lower then your rank if your diamond 5 but your game is all plat 1/2 players
On October 22 2015 11:07 Sufficiency wrote: I know we always give Riot a lot of flak for using buzzwords. Then I saw the new units introduction to Legacy of the Void and pretty much every single new unit / upgrade is followed by the phrase "micro-intensive" or "new micro options".
Well I always like to say that Riot and Blizzard are basically cut from the same cloth. They follow each others mannerisms pretty closely. Although Riot has been doing a better job mostly. Sometimes they do dumb stuff but it always feels like they trying to get better.
Finally got mid for the first time in like 2 weeks. It's amazing how different the game feels to play when you're on something you're fully comfortable with
Was is nov 11th the season ended? I can't decide if i should try and push for d4/d3, or embrace the d5 badge of shame :p
It's November 11th at midnight yeah. I know I'll stop at Plat V if I can reach it, Gold I is definitely doable and probably where my "true" level is, within variance. I'm playing a bunch of Plat IV-V people in my games but their winrate is often below 50%, or people are obviously duoing. I think baring unlucky streaks or a bad timing with my promos, I'll get to Gold I easily, then I'll see if grinding to Plat is doable. Are you more likely to climb to D IV or drop to Plat I if you try?
On October 23 2015 18:50 Alaric wrote: It's November 11th at midnight yeah. I know I'll stop at Plat V if I can reach it, Gold I is definitely doable and probably where my "true" level is, within variance. I'm playing a bunch of Plat IV-V people in my games but their winrate is often below 50%, or people are obviously duoing. I think baring unlucky streaks or a bad timing with my promos, I'll get to Gold I easily, then I'll see if grinding to Plat is doable. Are you more likely to climb to D IV or drop to Plat I if you try?
The eternal question :p
I think I have a few more losses at 0lp before i demote if i fall that far
On October 23 2015 18:50 Alaric wrote: It's November 11th at midnight yeah. I know I'll stop at Plat V if I can reach it, Gold I is definitely doable and probably where my "true" level is, within variance. I'm playing a bunch of Plat IV-V people in my games but their winrate is often below 50%, or people are obviously duoing. I think baring unlucky streaks or a bad timing with my promos, I'll get to Gold I easily, then I'll see if grinding to Plat is doable. Are you more likely to climb to D IV or drop to Plat I if you try?
The eternal question :p
I think I have a few more losses at 0lp before i demote if i fall that far
On October 23 2015 16:38 Celial wrote: holy shit witch doctor brand is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo pretty i think i need to buy him and main brand support
That's what I did today. It is indeed really good. Played supp Brand and carried the shit out of our game, damn.
On October 23 2015 18:50 Alaric wrote: It's November 11th at midnight yeah. I know I'll stop at Plat V if I can reach it, Gold I is definitely doable and probably where my "true" level is, within variance. I'm playing a bunch of Plat IV-V people in my games but their winrate is often below 50%, or people are obviously duoing. I think baring unlucky streaks or a bad timing with my promos, I'll get to Gold I easily, then I'll see if grinding to Plat is doable. Are you more likely to climb to D IV or drop to Plat I if you try?
My smurf is safely in Plat I. But my main has fallen to Plat III...
I don’t think I can gather enough energy to keep playing though... Plat III isn't too awful.
On October 22 2015 23:21 Zdrastochye wrote: I'm curious with the slowed down pace of champion releases how many champion reworks will take effect in 2016. I know there's a few that Riot had mentioned they wanted to change (Poppy being one) due to them simply having outdated kits, and I'm sure some of them could stand to get a graphic update as well. If they only release half a dozen champions I'm sure they'll have ample time/resources to rework an additional half dozen as well. Looking at a champion like Singed who looks so passé compared to the new highly mobile Ekko-type champions, as well as his own kit being fairly boring/binary.
I just want them to do that Shaco remake so I can come to terms with how terrible or nice they will make him. The wait is making me edgy.
Because here's my impersonation of Riot explaining a Shaco rework:
Hey guys, Riot here. Today we want to talk about Shaco. We really like the concept of a crazy, gank heavy, early game assassin, who is just as at home in the enemy jungle as in his own.
However, when we got working on how to modernize the joker while keeping his identity, we ran into a problem. When Shaco is strong enough to be a viable jungler, he's too strong, to the point that he crowds out a lot of other jungle options. This has historically forced us to keep his power level a bit too low for our liking.
So we're going to add counterplay to Shacos core gameplay, to give enemies a chance to get out of that gank after he sneaks up behind you.
We're making Shiv a skillshot. Then we can up his numbers a little bit since you can dodge his only slow.
That's the rework aren't we brilliant!
Really what I'd like to see on a Shaco rework is a complete overhaul of his clone. I'd like it to be able to use skills and I'd like a godtier Shaco to be able to make really crazy plays and outsmart people with it in spectacular ways.
But they're also gonna make Shiv a skillshot. Don't think they won't.
On October 24 2015 01:37 Ketara wrote: Because here's my impersonation of Riot explaining a Shaco rework:
Hey guys, Riot here. Today we want to talk about Shaco. We really like the concept of a crazy, gank heavy, early game assassin, who is just as at home in the enemy jungle as in his own.
However, when we got working on how to modernize the joker while keeping his identity, we ran into a problem. When Shaco is strong enough to be a viable jungler, he's too strong, to the point that he crowds out a lot of other jungle options. This has historically forced us to keep his power level a bit too low for our liking.
So we're going to add counterplay to Shacos core gameplay, to give enemies a chance to get out of that gank after he sneaks up behind you.
We're making Shiv a skillshot. Then we can up his numbers a little bit since you can dodge his only slow.
That's the rework aren't we brilliant!
It was a good impression but I think you needed to talk about preserving strategic diversity.
On October 24 2015 01:37 Ketara wrote: Because here's my impersonation of Riot explaining a Shaco rework:
Hey guys, Riot here. Today we want to talk about Shaco. We really like the concept of a crazy, gank heavy, early game assassin, who is just as at home in the enemy jungle as in his own.
However, when we got working on how to modernize the joker while keeping his identity, we ran into a problem. When Shaco is strong enough to be a viable jungler, he's too strong, to the point that he crowds out a lot of other jungle options. This has historically forced us to keep his power level a bit too low for our liking.
So we're going to add counterplay to Shacos core gameplay, to give enemies a chance to get out of that gank after he sneaks up behind you.
We're making Shiv a skillshot. Then we can up his numbers a little bit since you can dodge his only slow.
That's the rework aren't we brilliant!
I am in tears laughing about how Riot that sounds.
The skillshot wouldn't change too much 'cause I often see Shaco start the gank with Shiv out of stealth anyway. As for the clone jukes and mind games, it's already possible, it's just... taxing.
On October 24 2015 01:51 Alaric wrote: The skillshot wouldn't change too much 'cause I often see Shaco start the gank with Shiv out of stealth anyway. As for the clone jukes and mind games, it's already possible, it's just... taxing.
No it isnt you just spam ping him before he clones and you will see which is the real one. Same for leblanc( also interesting fact leblanc clone auto moves after the passive procs).
Also riot's pet system is so fucking garbage holy shit. Half the time the pet doesn't do what you tell it.
And Viktor's ult is functionally a pet... technically they improved Morde's and Viktor's ults as part of their reworks, but pets in general are still garbage.
On October 24 2015 01:51 Alaric wrote: The skillshot wouldn't change too much 'cause I often see Shaco start the gank with Shiv out of stealth anyway. As for the clone jukes and mind games, it's already possible, it's just... taxing.
It feels harder than some other assassins due to them having the ability to escape without having to use flash once they go in. Once you Q in, all you have is the clone that many folks can spot the difference in. It doesn't seem to have as much room for error as some other folks have like say LeBlanc(can double jump out), Ahri(same as LB), or Talon(he blinks in with E but can stealth out w/ R). Once you Q in with Shaco, you're in it to win it.
It feels like Q has too much on it. It's his engage, it's his damage, it's his escape. Speaking of damage, while I am probably sure I am wrong on the math, it doesn't feel like it gives the same "yeah I am going to wipe that squishy out" feeling other skills have. I learned that the crit on it is not really a crit, its more of a bonus damage, so IE isn't as good on him as one would think it might be(at least not as an early item). Damage that you can build faster seems much better on him.
If Riot's game client wasn't so buggy Shaco would be the perfect champion to have a perma-clone (albeit with a CD) to trick people into going after the wrong guy. It'll never happen but that'd be more fun for sure. Realistically they should make his kit crit dependent then he can be complained about as being "RNG or bust".
They should probably also review how the backstab passive interacts with the model orientation. I say this not due to a bug or anything, more along the lines of we have Fiora that uses it massively so it might be a good idea to review other champs that use the same mechanic.
Thats interesting, hope they add more bans, not just change the way it works
Really?
In 5's it kind of makes sense, because you can ban after a composition, but in soloq the vast majority of the time even though there are only a few actually broke champions, people just decide on 6-7 "must bans" and then those never ever get played.
Adding more bans would just increase the number of "must bans" as decided by the random soloq community, which would just make another few champions impossible for people to play, and not really improve the experience in any real way, just makes it harder for people to play what they want.
It would just go from nobody ever getting to play tahm/morde/darius/fiora/gp/veigar to nobody ever getting to play those 6 + diana vayne yasuo and elise. Plus it would make balancing even harder since nobody would ever get to play a supposedly "op" champ ever at all, so there's no way for any buffs/nerfs to actually resonate with the community enough for people to adapt.
Hell, skarner is still a top 15 ban this patch, and that's in plat+, he's apparently near permaban in gold/silver. More bans would just leave champions stuck in purgatory for even longer for no reason.
Thats interesting, hope they add more bans, not just change the way it works
Really?
In 5's it kind of makes sense, because you can ban after a composition, but in soloq the vast majority of the time even though there are only a few actually broke champions, people just decide on 6-7 "must bans" and then those never ever get played.
Adding more bans would just increase the number of "must bans" as decided by the random soloq community, which would just make another few champions impossible for people to play, and not really improve the experience in any real way, just makes it harder for people to play what they want.
It would just go from nobody ever getting to play tahm/morde/darius/fiora/gp/veigar to nobody ever getting to play those 6 + diana vayne yasuo and elise. Plus it would make balancing even harder since nobody would ever get to play a supposedly "op" champ ever at all, so there's no way for any buffs/nerfs to actually resonate with the community enough for people to adapt.
Hell, skarner is still a top 15 ban this patch, and that's in plat+, he's apparently near permaban in gold/silver. More bans would just leave champions stuck in purgatory for even longer for no reason.
TBH, that's why I'd be in favor of 2 bans each at the start, and then another 2 later on in the pick phase. More stuff left open initially, and then you can actually reactionary ban.
It's important to note that (i believe?) the main mode of soloq is switching to teambuilder at some point next season. That means the main reason people want to be higher in pick order (to get their role) isn't there anymore. This means being firstpick, and things like banning halfway through champ select, are way easier for riot to mess around with since "pick order" is nowhere near as important to the players as it was before.
i think soloq is perfect as it is everyone could be a diamond if you played a little bit better it makes no sense to invent a bicycle all other again for no reason whatsoever its so annoying to listen to you people whine about thgings that are not worth whining about its just a game dont take it so extra seriously i mean if the system wasnt good you wouldnt see all those good players in great games in the finals we have now the system you guys want would indubitably promote bad plays
I find that quite a bit more interesting, personally. Backtracking, blatantly making excuses, not giving a real answer in any meaningful way. Why isn't Riot working on this mode if it's not actually toxic? Just wtf.
On October 25 2015 01:44 brokenwatch wrote: i think soloq is perfect as it is everyone could be a diamond if you played a little bit better it makes no sense to invent a bicycle all other again for no reason whatsoever its so annoying to listen to you people whine about thgings that are not worth whining about its just a game dont take it so extra seriously i mean if the system wasnt good you wouldnt see all those good players in great games in the finals we have now the system you guys want would indubitably promote bad plays
1) No one is whining, they are discussing something someone actually said was going to happen and thinking about pros and cons. One of the biggest posts on the subject actually says more bans would be bad for soloq, although I disagree.
2) "If the system [presumably in soloq?] wasn't good you wouldn't see all those good players in great games in the finals"
Uhh... soloq has nothing to do with the quality of players in competitive games, and thus the quality of games they produce at the professional level. Would more bans be bad for competitive? I don't think so. You seem to think so. Why do you think that? Perhaps not just MORE bans, but a different system altogether from 3 bans each before any picks are made. Blanket statements like "any change would be bad" doesn't really add to the discussion at all. Change IS being made, as confirmed by someone from Riot, so you're bound to be unhappy.
I find that quite a bit more interesting, personally. Backtracking, blatantly making excuses, not giving a real answer in any meaningful way. Why isn't Riot working on this mode if it's not actually toxic? Just wtf.
1. Poor monetization potential (by "poor" I mean none whatsoever) 2. Little interests from a vast majority of the player base 3. Difficult and expensive to implement.
Personally I'd love it if Sandbox was locked to only like, Diamond players and up. I know that will never happen but it's fun to imagine, and reinforces the idea that game knowledge is 10x as important as mechanics.
I find that quite a bit more interesting, personally. Backtracking, blatantly making excuses, not giving a real answer in any meaningful way. Why isn't Riot working on this mode if it's not actually toxic? Just wtf.
1. Poor monetization potential (by "poor" I mean none whatsoever) 2. Little interests from a vast majority of the player base 3. Difficult and expensive to implement.
I doubt that it's actually that difficult to implement given URF mode.
I do agree that they don't do it because it can't make them money.
Locking the mode behind a diamond wall would be even more backwards than just not releasing it. A mode designed to help players improve mechanically given only to the top 1% of players. lol.
I find that quite a bit more interesting, personally. Backtracking, blatantly making excuses, not giving a real answer in any meaningful way. Why isn't Riot working on this mode if it's not actually toxic? Just wtf.
1. Poor monetization potential (by "poor" I mean none whatsoever) 2. Little interests from a vast majority of the player base 3. Difficult and expensive to implement.
I doubt that it's actually that difficult to implement given URF mode.
I do agree that they don't do it because it can't make them money.
Locking the mode behind a diamond wall would be even more backwards than just not releasing it. A mode designed to help players improve mechanically given only to the top 1% of players. lol.
It's not even remotely comparable to URF mode. The set of features that are needed to be a "sandbox" is enormous.
On October 25 2015 06:05 GrandInquisitor wrote: Personally I'd love it if Sandbox was locked to only like, Diamond players and up. I know that will never happen but it's fun to imagine, and reinforces the idea that game knowledge is 10x as important as mechanics.
What is the point of this?
It's just going to annoy people who want to use it.
A save and load tool would cover the basic functionality of a sandbox, given that save files can be shared. But then again we don't even have replays so what are you going to do
On October 25 2015 06:37 Ketara wrote: I wonder how angry people would get if they made it and then charged 5$ for it.
Not as angry as you think, probably. Actually, this might be a pretty good idea. At least better than GrandInquisitor's one.
If they charged for it then it would have to be 100% completely bug free, and I think we know the chances of it not constantly breaking are pretty low.
On October 25 2015 07:01 Sufficiency wrote: It's not even remotely comparable to URF mode. The set of features that are needed to be a "sandbox" is enormous.
What. Make cooldowns zero seconds instead of almost zero. Make it that you can play against other people and not take damage to practise skillshots.
It's basically a more condensed version of URF and they already have the framework. It's basically like the training mode every single fighting game ever has implemented.
And a sandbox mode. I'm pretty sceptical about the whole idea to be honest.
Pro players already know what terrain is flashable for example. They play enough games daily to have had enough situations pop up where they had to make a certain move and see it succeed or fail. It's all about this: do you have enough composure to actually take enough damage to walk to the absolute edge of a certain wall to flash it and make that flash. Players know they can make that flash, it's just about timing. For example, that gank in CLG vs FW where Doublelift knows he can make that flash only if he's a bit further, but uses the summoner anyway and fails because he doesn't wait long enough or doesn't understand that it was a hopeless situation. It's all context based. And I don't think that a sandbox mode would improve the top players that much. There's a reason they get their kills in ganks or in teamfights and that's because they force the opponent to choose a lesser of two evils. A sandbox mode won't ever make you better in choosing the lesser of two evils, since that's entirey situational.
On October 25 2015 07:01 Sufficiency wrote: It's not even remotely comparable to URF mode. The set of features that are needed to be a "sandbox" is enormous.
What. Make cooldowns zero seconds instead of almost zero. Make it that you can play against other people and not take damage to practise skillshots.
It's basically a more condensed version of URF and they already have the framework. It's basically like the training mode every single fighting game ever has implemented.
And a sandbox mode. I'm pretty sceptical about the whole idea to be honest.
Pro players already know what terrain is flashable for example. They play enough games daily to have had enough situations pop up where they had to make a certain move and see it succeed or fail. It's all about this: do you have enough composure to actually take enough damage to walk to the absolute edge of a certain wall to flash it and make that flash. Players know they can make that flash, it's just about timing. For example, that gank in CLG vs FW where Doublelift knows he can make that flash only if he's a bit further, but uses the summoner anyway and fails because he doesn't wait long enough or doesn't understand that it was a hopeless situation. It's all context based. And I don't think that a sandbox mode would improve the top players that much. There's a reason they get their kills in ganks or in teamfights and that's because they force the opponent to choose a lesser of two evils. A sandbox mode won't ever make you better in choosing the lesser of two evils, since that's entirey situational.
Then we have different definitions of sandbox mode. You are saying URF mode is essentially a sandbox. I will only consider it a sandbox if it offers greater level of control by the player - spawn any units at will, modify gold/experience, etc.
On October 25 2015 07:01 Sufficiency wrote: It's not even remotely comparable to URF mode. The set of features that are needed to be a "sandbox" is enormous.
What. Make cooldowns zero seconds instead of almost zero. Make it that you can play against other people and not take damage to practise skillshots.
It's basically a more condensed version of URF and they already have the framework. It's basically like the training mode every single fighting game ever has implemented.
And a sandbox mode. I'm pretty sceptical about the whole idea to be honest.
Pro players already know what terrain is flashable for example. They play enough games daily to have had enough situations pop up where they had to make a certain move and see it succeed or fail. It's all about this: do you have enough composure to actually take enough damage to walk to the absolute edge of a certain wall to flash it and make that flash. Players know they can make that flash, it's just about timing. For example, that gank in CLG vs FW where Doublelift knows he can make that flash only if he's a bit further, but uses the summoner anyway and fails because he doesn't wait long enough or doesn't understand that it was a hopeless situation. It's all context based. And I don't think that a sandbox mode would improve the top players that much. There's a reason they get their kills in ganks or in teamfights and that's because they force the opponent to choose a lesser of two evils. A sandbox mode won't ever make you better in choosing the lesser of two evils, since that's entirey situational.
And what about all the crazy, ridiculous bugged out interactions that happen when skills start firing at the same time?
Maybe if two blitz hooks shoot at once, they share an id tag and the server crashes. Maybe if karthus tries to ult while viktor has two ultimates active at once, the server crashes. Maybe if a maokai reaches 300 sapplings, the server crashes. Maybe if a draven has more then 5 spinning axes going at once the server crashes.
Without knowing how every single aspect of league is coded, you have no idea what would get broken by having no cooldown, and we've had bugs in the past where one small interaction between champions has taken down games or even the whole server.
It would take a HUGE amount of testing to check even a small number of the potential fringe cases. Not to mention cases with older mechanics where some things are hard coded into the game.
Completely ignoring the fact that a sandbox mode would be expected to have all sorts of customiseability on top of just cooldowns, those alone are months if not more of playtesting, just to insure that the servers don't crash the second it gets released.
Getting sandbox mode is just unreasonable with how bad riot's code is. The fact that we don't have urf in customs as a replacement for practice mode cuz they can't even do that properly is a joke though.
Well atm, we first of all don't even have a player console to enter commands into (chat box aside).
Probably far too hopeful to expect "spawn cannon 10" level control ever given the level of client side control available. Riot's engine wasn't built like source engine is, there's so much less flexibility it isn't even funny.
Some ways I could see them implementing a pseudo sandbox.
- items in store that level you up upon usage - items in store that spawn a target dummy with 2k health and 100/100 resists(or whatever is reasonable) - CDR limit set to 90% - trinkets give CDR
On October 25 2015 19:13 Amui wrote: Well atm, we first of all don't even have a player console to enter commands into (chat box aside).
Probably far too hopeful to expect "spawn cannon 10" level control ever given the level of client side control available. Riot's engine wasn't built like source engine is, there's so much less flexibility it isn't even funny.
Some ways I could see them implementing a pseudo sandbox.
- items in store that level you up upon usage - items in store that spawn a target dummy with 2k health and 100/100 resists(or whatever is reasonable) - CDR limit set to 90% - trinkets give CDR
in other words broodwar/wc3 custom maps :D
it is kinda sad that a lot of the community doesn't know what sandbox mode is and they whine about it when most people just want a practice mode so we can actually learn how to do proper combos and get better reaction time
On October 25 2015 07:01 Sufficiency wrote: It's not even remotely comparable to URF mode. The set of features that are needed to be a "sandbox" is enormous.
What. Make cooldowns zero seconds instead of almost zero. Make it that you can play against other people and not take damage to practise skillshots.
It's basically a more condensed version of URF and they already have the framework. It's basically like the training mode every single fighting game ever has implemented.
And a sandbox mode. I'm pretty sceptical about the whole idea to be honest.
Pro players already know what terrain is flashable for example. They play enough games daily to have had enough situations pop up where they had to make a certain move and see it succeed or fail. It's all about this: do you have enough composure to actually take enough damage to walk to the absolute edge of a certain wall to flash it and make that flash. Players know they can make that flash, it's just about timing. For example, that gank in CLG vs FW where Doublelift knows he can make that flash only if he's a bit further, but uses the summoner anyway and fails because he doesn't wait long enough or doesn't understand that it was a hopeless situation. It's all context based. And I don't think that a sandbox mode would improve the top players that much. There's a reason they get their kills in ganks or in teamfights and that's because they force the opponent to choose a lesser of two evils. A sandbox mode won't ever make you better in choosing the lesser of two evils, since that's entirey situational.
Then we have different definitions of sandbox mode. You are saying URF mode is essentially a sandbox. I will only consider it a sandbox if it offers greater level of control by the player - spawn any units at will, modify gold/experience, etc.
Well, i mean... Ideally you have that stuff. But I'd be fine with a custom Urf Mode.
Most stuff you need to test would go a lot faster. I mean really, what is there to test / practice mechanics wise? Wall flashing / jumping, Skill Mechanics (inc animation canceling etc). Everything else we already have ways to practice. The biggest thing is like... say you want to learn the Riven E-R combo's to eliminate the mini self stun... you need to have like 2 minutes of downtime between every try! It will take you an hour to have the practice that we know we have the technology to do in like 5 minutes.
Riven is balanced on players being able to do the animation cancel, but if they can't have time to practice it the champion is just out of reach for them, and will always be unless they spend like 5 hours playing PvClient in order to practice. I think that is more toxic than the mode itself could ever be. If you ever want to be flamed, try picking riven in a ranked game and not cancelling a single R animation.
One of the issues that Riot said they had with implementing sandbox mode is that everybody had different ideas as to what should be in it. Looking at this conversation it seems like they're right.
When they do implement it they need to satisfy at least the majority of people, which means they have to implement a lot more than URF. I do think they're going to do it now, but I can see how it wouldn't be easy and it will take time.
That said, I also think that the current URF mode satisfies a lot of what people want and it seems silly for them to not to just turn it on as available for custom games.
It seems silly to me that they don't turn on ALL their special game modes for customs.
Off topic game nights could be great fun if we could play one game of each custom mode.
I have some noob questions about Rene. Are you susposed to activate your hydra right after u w to stop the long ass animation of 3 swipes? What other times are best to use it or does it really matter as far as damage in combo.
On October 25 2015 22:25 JimmiC wrote: I have some noob questions about Rene. Are you susposed to activate your hydra right after u w to stop the long ass animation of 3 swipes? What other times are best to use it or does it really matter as far as damage in combo.
Yes. Canceling W's end lag is pretty much the only time you want to use Hydra in a fight with Renekton.
On October 25 2015 20:28 Ketara wrote: One of the issues that Riot said they had with implementing sandbox mode is that everybody had different ideas as to what should be in it. Looking at this conversation it seems like they're right.
When they do implement it they need to satisfy at least the majority of people, which means they have to implement a lot more than URF. I do think they're going to do it now, but I can see how it wouldn't be easy and it will take time.
That said, I also think that the current URF mode satisfies a lot of what people want and it seems silly for them to not to just turn it on as available for custom games.
It seems silly to me that they don't turn on ALL their special game modes for customs.
Off topic game nights could be great fun if we could play one game of each custom mode.
Riot is not going to make URF a custom game mode unless they are absolutely stupid.
URF draws a huge amount of traffic for Riot two years in a row now. I do not see any reason why Riot would give up this huge source of traffic and monetization and make it die in custom mode.
On October 25 2015 20:28 Ketara wrote: One of the issues that Riot said they had with implementing sandbox mode is that everybody had different ideas as to what should be in it. Looking at this conversation it seems like they're right.
When they do implement it they need to satisfy at least the majority of people, which means they have to implement a lot more than URF. I do think they're going to do it now, but I can see how it wouldn't be easy and it will take time.
That said, I also think that the current URF mode satisfies a lot of what people want and it seems silly for them to not to just turn it on as available for custom games.
It seems silly to me that they don't turn on ALL their special game modes for customs.
Off topic game nights could be great fun if we could play one game of each custom mode.
Riot is not going to make URF a custom game mode unless they are absolutely stupid.
URF draws a huge amount of traffic for Riot two years in a row now. I do not see any reason why Riot would give up this huge source of traffic and monetization and make it die in custom mode.
That's such bullshit.
Custom game Urf Mode wont kill the traffic for Matchmade Urf mode any more than custom game SR hasn't killed Solo or Premade Matchmade SR.
If anything, you'd see a lot of people who dont play SR, play Urf more regularly and buy skins and stuff to show off in Urf. And even if it would make Riot lose money in the short term... wtf since when is releasing something you already have to make your customers happy a bad thing?
On October 25 2015 20:28 Ketara wrote: One of the issues that Riot said they had with implementing sandbox mode is that everybody had different ideas as to what should be in it. Looking at this conversation it seems like they're right.
When they do implement it they need to satisfy at least the majority of people, which means they have to implement a lot more than URF. I do think they're going to do it now, but I can see how it wouldn't be easy and it will take time.
That said, I also think that the current URF mode satisfies a lot of what people want and it seems silly for them to not to just turn it on as available for custom games.
It seems silly to me that they don't turn on ALL their special game modes for customs.
Off topic game nights could be great fun if we could play one game of each custom mode.
Riot is not going to make URF a custom game mode unless they are absolutely stupid.
URF draws a huge amount of traffic for Riot two years in a row now. I do not see any reason why Riot would give up this huge source of traffic and monetization and make it die in custom mode.
That's such bullshit.
Custom game Urf Mode wont kill the traffic for Matchmade Urf mode any more than custom game SR hasn't killed Solo or Premade Matchmade SR.
If anything, you'd see a lot of people who dont play SR, play Urf more regularly and buy skins and stuff to show off in Urf. And even if it would make Riot lose money in the short term... wtf since when is releasing something you already have to make your customers happy a bad thing?
How is it bullshit?
Comparing custom SR vs matchmade SR is the actual bullshit. You can't compare a mode that persists 100% of the time to a mode that only happens a couple of weeks each year.
On October 25 2015 20:28 Ketara wrote: One of the issues that Riot said they had with implementing sandbox mode is that everybody had different ideas as to what should be in it. Looking at this conversation it seems like they're right.
When they do implement it they need to satisfy at least the majority of people, which means they have to implement a lot more than URF. I do think they're going to do it now, but I can see how it wouldn't be easy and it will take time.
That said, I also think that the current URF mode satisfies a lot of what people want and it seems silly for them to not to just turn it on as available for custom games.
It seems silly to me that they don't turn on ALL their special game modes for customs.
Off topic game nights could be great fun if we could play one game of each custom mode.
Riot is not going to make URF a custom game mode unless they are absolutely stupid.
URF draws a huge amount of traffic for Riot two years in a row now. I do not see any reason why Riot would give up this huge source of traffic and monetization and make it die in custom mode.
That's such bullshit.
Custom game Urf Mode wont kill the traffic for Matchmade Urf mode any more than custom game SR hasn't killed Solo or Premade Matchmade SR.
If anything, you'd see a lot of people who dont play SR, play Urf more regularly and buy skins and stuff to show off in Urf. And even if it would make Riot lose money in the short term... wtf since when is releasing something you already have to make your customers happy a bad thing?
How is it bullshit?
Comparing custom SR vs matchmade SR is the actual bullshit. It's not even remotely comparable.
How is custom game Urf, and matchmade Urf even remotely comparable then? I don't follow your logic.
On October 25 2015 20:28 Ketara wrote: One of the issues that Riot said they had with implementing sandbox mode is that everybody had different ideas as to what should be in it. Looking at this conversation it seems like they're right.
When they do implement it they need to satisfy at least the majority of people, which means they have to implement a lot more than URF. I do think they're going to do it now, but I can see how it wouldn't be easy and it will take time.
That said, I also think that the current URF mode satisfies a lot of what people want and it seems silly for them to not to just turn it on as available for custom games.
It seems silly to me that they don't turn on ALL their special game modes for customs.
Off topic game nights could be great fun if we could play one game of each custom mode.
Riot is not going to make URF a custom game mode unless they are absolutely stupid.
URF draws a huge amount of traffic for Riot two years in a row now. I do not see any reason why Riot would give up this huge source of traffic and monetization and make it die in custom mode.
That's such bullshit.
Custom game Urf Mode wont kill the traffic for Matchmade Urf mode any more than custom game SR hasn't killed Solo or Premade Matchmade SR.
If anything, you'd see a lot of people who dont play SR, play Urf more regularly and buy skins and stuff to show off in Urf. And even if it would make Riot lose money in the short term... wtf since when is releasing something you already have to make your customers happy a bad thing?
How is it bullshit?
Comparing custom SR vs matchmade SR is the actual bullshit. It's not even remotely comparable.
How is custom game Urf, and matchmade Urf even remotely comparable then? I don't follow your logic.
You are saying:
1. Custom SR is available all year round. Has no impact on matchmade SR which is also available all year round. 2. Therefore, custom URF that is available all year round has no impact on matchmade URF which only happens a few weeks each year.
On October 25 2015 20:28 Ketara wrote: One of the issues that Riot said they had with implementing sandbox mode is that everybody had different ideas as to what should be in it. Looking at this conversation it seems like they're right.
When they do implement it they need to satisfy at least the majority of people, which means they have to implement a lot more than URF. I do think they're going to do it now, but I can see how it wouldn't be easy and it will take time.
That said, I also think that the current URF mode satisfies a lot of what people want and it seems silly for them to not to just turn it on as available for custom games.
It seems silly to me that they don't turn on ALL their special game modes for customs.
Off topic game nights could be great fun if we could play one game of each custom mode.
Riot is not going to make URF a custom game mode unless they are absolutely stupid.
URF draws a huge amount of traffic for Riot two years in a row now. I do not see any reason why Riot would give up this huge source of traffic and monetization and make it die in custom mode.
That's such bullshit.
Custom game Urf Mode wont kill the traffic for Matchmade Urf mode any more than custom game SR hasn't killed Solo or Premade Matchmade SR.
If anything, you'd see a lot of people who dont play SR, play Urf more regularly and buy skins and stuff to show off in Urf. And even if it would make Riot lose money in the short term... wtf since when is releasing something you already have to make your customers happy a bad thing?
How is it bullshit?
Comparing custom SR vs matchmade SR is the actual bullshit. It's not even remotely comparable.
How is custom game Urf, and matchmade Urf even remotely comparable then? I don't follow your logic.
You are saying:
1. Custom SR is available all year round. Has no impact on matchmade SR which is also available all year round. 2. Therefore, custom URF that is available all year round has no impact on matchmade URF which only happens a few weeks each year.
????????
Yeah...
Do you ever play games that are non-matchmade? In the Original DotA if you ever wanted a fair gaem you had to spend like 2 hours waiting for ten people around the same skill level to get in a game. Most of the time you'd still have one person who was playing the map for the first time and got absolutely pooped on... like a bronze level player randomly thrown into a challenger game.
I'd play matchmade urf over non-matchmade urf any day.
Sure it might kill your momentary week of hype, but I think you gain more traffic over the course of the year by having it. People LOVED Aram when the map first came out... there were always custom games for it.
On October 25 2015 20:28 Ketara wrote: One of the issues that Riot said they had with implementing sandbox mode is that everybody had different ideas as to what should be in it. Looking at this conversation it seems like they're right.
When they do implement it they need to satisfy at least the majority of people, which means they have to implement a lot more than URF. I do think they're going to do it now, but I can see how it wouldn't be easy and it will take time.
That said, I also think that the current URF mode satisfies a lot of what people want and it seems silly for them to not to just turn it on as available for custom games.
It seems silly to me that they don't turn on ALL their special game modes for customs.
Off topic game nights could be great fun if we could play one game of each custom mode.
Riot is not going to make URF a custom game mode unless they are absolutely stupid.
URF draws a huge amount of traffic for Riot two years in a row now. I do not see any reason why Riot would give up this huge source of traffic and monetization and make it die in custom mode.
That's such bullshit.
Custom game Urf Mode wont kill the traffic for Matchmade Urf mode any more than custom game SR hasn't killed Solo or Premade Matchmade SR.
If anything, you'd see a lot of people who dont play SR, play Urf more regularly and buy skins and stuff to show off in Urf. And even if it would make Riot lose money in the short term... wtf since when is releasing something you already have to make your customers happy a bad thing?
How is it bullshit?
Comparing custom SR vs matchmade SR is the actual bullshit. It's not even remotely comparable.
How is custom game Urf, and matchmade Urf even remotely comparable then? I don't follow your logic.
You are saying:
1. Custom SR is available all year round. Has no impact on matchmade SR which is also available all year round. 2. Therefore, custom URF that is available all year round has no impact on matchmade URF which only happens a few weeks each year.
????????
Yeah...
Do you ever play games that are non-matchmade? In the Original DotA if you ever wanted a fair gaem you had to spend like 2 hours waiting for ten people around the same skill level to get in a game. Most of the time you'd still have one person who was playing the map for the first time and got absolutely pooped on... like a bronze level player randomly thrown into a challenger game.
I'd play matchmade urf over non-matchmade urf any day.
Sure it might kill your momentary week of hype, but I think you gain more traffic over the course of the year by having it. People LOVED Aram when the map first came out... there were always custom games for it.
The problem is exclusivity and time-limited offer of URF. You are still failing to address this issue.
On October 25 2015 20:28 Ketara wrote: One of the issues that Riot said they had with implementing sandbox mode is that everybody had different ideas as to what should be in it. Looking at this conversation it seems like they're right.
When they do implement it they need to satisfy at least the majority of people, which means they have to implement a lot more than URF. I do think they're going to do it now, but I can see how it wouldn't be easy and it will take time.
That said, I also think that the current URF mode satisfies a lot of what people want and it seems silly for them to not to just turn it on as available for custom games.
It seems silly to me that they don't turn on ALL their special game modes for customs.
Off topic game nights could be great fun if we could play one game of each custom mode.
Riot is not going to make URF a custom game mode unless they are absolutely stupid.
URF draws a huge amount of traffic for Riot two years in a row now. I do not see any reason why Riot would give up this huge source of traffic and monetization and make it die in custom mode.
That's such bullshit.
Custom game Urf Mode wont kill the traffic for Matchmade Urf mode any more than custom game SR hasn't killed Solo or Premade Matchmade SR.
If anything, you'd see a lot of people who dont play SR, play Urf more regularly and buy skins and stuff to show off in Urf. And even if it would make Riot lose money in the short term... wtf since when is releasing something you already have to make your customers happy a bad thing?
How is it bullshit?
Comparing custom SR vs matchmade SR is the actual bullshit. It's not even remotely comparable.
How is custom game Urf, and matchmade Urf even remotely comparable then? I don't follow your logic.
You are saying:
1. Custom SR is available all year round. Has no impact on matchmade SR which is also available all year round. 2. Therefore, custom URF that is available all year round has no impact on matchmade URF which only happens a few weeks each year.
????????
Yeah...
Do you ever play games that are non-matchmade? In the Original DotA if you ever wanted a fair gaem you had to spend like 2 hours waiting for ten people around the same skill level to get in a game. Most of the time you'd still have one person who was playing the map for the first time and got absolutely pooped on... like a bronze level player randomly thrown into a challenger game.
I'd play matchmade urf over non-matchmade urf any day.
Sure it might kill your momentary week of hype, but I think you gain more traffic over the course of the year by having it. People LOVED Aram when the map first came out... there were always custom games for it.
The problem is exclusivity and time-limited offer of URF. You are still failing to address this issue.
Well, I guess the thing is I honestly dont see how limiting URF to a single week exclusive window makes riot any money. If I love the URF game mode, and only that game mode, why would I buy skins for URF? Thats pretty stupid.
I mean, sure they get more traffic than they typically would, but I dont think that demographic is the one that buys a bunch of skins. I also think that means more money spent on the server, and more people pissed at the inevitable server failures that come congruent with the increased traffic.
That said, what do I know... I dont do sales or marketing, but I think you make more money out of the good faith of just giving your customers URF 24/7. I've thought it was incredibly stupid to keep it a exclusive thing anyway; my wife would play URF religiously, its like a more lolzy less serious ARAM... I am sure there are several others that would as well, and I bet they probably buy a skin a month.
I think there is a lot more money in the casual that plays once a week than the hardcore player that plays 24/7. They both buy the same skins, the casual probably buys more because they likely spend more time working; the casual only gives like 5% of the server load. Look at Gyms, their entire business model is trying to get the maximum number of casual gym memberships as possible.
On October 25 2015 20:28 Ketara wrote: One of the issues that Riot said they had with implementing sandbox mode is that everybody had different ideas as to what should be in it. Looking at this conversation it seems like they're right.
When they do implement it they need to satisfy at least the majority of people, which means they have to implement a lot more than URF. I do think they're going to do it now, but I can see how it wouldn't be easy and it will take time.
That said, I also think that the current URF mode satisfies a lot of what people want and it seems silly for them to not to just turn it on as available for custom games.
It seems silly to me that they don't turn on ALL their special game modes for customs.
Off topic game nights could be great fun if we could play one game of each custom mode.
Riot is not going to make URF a custom game mode unless they are absolutely stupid.
URF draws a huge amount of traffic for Riot two years in a row now. I do not see any reason why Riot would give up this huge source of traffic and monetization and make it die in custom mode.
That's such bullshit.
Custom game Urf Mode wont kill the traffic for Matchmade Urf mode any more than custom game SR hasn't killed Solo or Premade Matchmade SR.
If anything, you'd see a lot of people who dont play SR, play Urf more regularly and buy skins and stuff to show off in Urf. And even if it would make Riot lose money in the short term... wtf since when is releasing something you already have to make your customers happy a bad thing?
How is it bullshit?
Comparing custom SR vs matchmade SR is the actual bullshit. It's not even remotely comparable.
How is custom game Urf, and matchmade Urf even remotely comparable then? I don't follow your logic.
You are saying:
1. Custom SR is available all year round. Has no impact on matchmade SR which is also available all year round. 2. Therefore, custom URF that is available all year round has no impact on matchmade URF which only happens a few weeks each year.
????????
Yeah...
Do you ever play games that are non-matchmade? In the Original DotA if you ever wanted a fair gaem you had to spend like 2 hours waiting for ten people around the same skill level to get in a game. Most of the time you'd still have one person who was playing the map for the first time and got absolutely pooped on... like a bronze level player randomly thrown into a challenger game.
I'd play matchmade urf over non-matchmade urf any day.
Sure it might kill your momentary week of hype, but I think you gain more traffic over the course of the year by having it. People LOVED Aram when the map first came out... there were always custom games for it.
The problem is exclusivity and time-limited offer of URF. You are still failing to address this issue.
Well, I guess the thing is I honestly dont see how limiting URF to a single week exclusive window makes riot any money. If I love the URF game mode, and only that game mode, why would I buy skins for URF? Thats pretty stupid.
I mean, sure they get more traffic than they typically would, but I dont think that demographic is the one that buys a bunch of skins. I also think that means more money spent on the server, and more people pissed at the inevitable server failures that come congruent with the increased traffic.
That said, what do I know... I dont do sales or marketing, but I think you make more money out of the good faith of just giving your customers URF 24/7. I've thought it was incredibly stupid to keep it a exclusive thing anyway; my wife would play URF religiously, its like a more lolzy less serious ARAM... I am sure there are several others that would as well, and I bet they probably buy a skin a month.
On October 25 2015 20:28 Ketara wrote: One of the issues that Riot said they had with implementing sandbox mode is that everybody had different ideas as to what should be in it. Looking at this conversation it seems like they're right.
When they do implement it they need to satisfy at least the majority of people, which means they have to implement a lot more than URF. I do think they're going to do it now, but I can see how it wouldn't be easy and it will take time.
That said, I also think that the current URF mode satisfies a lot of what people want and it seems silly for them to not to just turn it on as available for custom games.
It seems silly to me that they don't turn on ALL their special game modes for customs.
Off topic game nights could be great fun if we could play one game of each custom mode.
Riot is not going to make URF a custom game mode unless they are absolutely stupid.
URF draws a huge amount of traffic for Riot two years in a row now. I do not see any reason why Riot would give up this huge source of traffic and monetization and make it die in custom mode.
That's such bullshit.
Custom game Urf Mode wont kill the traffic for Matchmade Urf mode any more than custom game SR hasn't killed Solo or Premade Matchmade SR.
If anything, you'd see a lot of people who dont play SR, play Urf more regularly and buy skins and stuff to show off in Urf. And even if it would make Riot lose money in the short term... wtf since when is releasing something you already have to make your customers happy a bad thing?
How is it bullshit?
Comparing custom SR vs matchmade SR is the actual bullshit. It's not even remotely comparable.
How is custom game Urf, and matchmade Urf even remotely comparable then? I don't follow your logic.
You are saying:
1. Custom SR is available all year round. Has no impact on matchmade SR which is also available all year round. 2. Therefore, custom URF that is available all year round has no impact on matchmade URF which only happens a few weeks each year.
????????
Yeah...
Do you ever play games that are non-matchmade? In the Original DotA if you ever wanted a fair gaem you had to spend like 2 hours waiting for ten people around the same skill level to get in a game. Most of the time you'd still have one person who was playing the map for the first time and got absolutely pooped on... like a bronze level player randomly thrown into a challenger game.
I'd play matchmade urf over non-matchmade urf any day.
Sure it might kill your momentary week of hype, but I think you gain more traffic over the course of the year by having it. People LOVED Aram when the map first came out... there were always custom games for it.
The problem is exclusivity and time-limited offer of URF. You are still failing to address this issue.
Well, I guess the thing is I honestly dont see how limiting URF to a single week exclusive window makes riot any money. If I love the URF game mode, and only that game mode, why would I buy skins for URF? Thats pretty stupid.
I mean, sure they get more traffic than they typically would, but I dont think that demographic is the one that buys a bunch of skins. I also think that means more money spent on the server, and more people pissed at the inevitable server failures that come congruent with the increased traffic.
That said, what do I know... I dont do sales or marketing, but I think you make more money out of the good faith of just giving your customers URF 24/7. I've thought it was incredibly stupid to keep it a exclusive thing anyway; my wife would play URF religiously, its like a more lolzy less serious ARAM... I am sure there are several others that would as well, and I bet they probably buy a skin a month.
You should watch this.
*SNIP*
Well, that is unfortunate.
Sometimes it strikes me how different i am than most people... here we have another example.
I suppose this is why I am a Mechanical Engineer and not a Businessman.
I mean, you need to look no further then this website to see people who never really play league, but come back to play a few urf games whenever urf is back in rotation. If it was always there they'd have no reason to come back after the novelty wore off.
But still, I don't buy that riot is in a situation where they need to deny useful content to their core userbase, just to pad numbers a few times a year. Especially when those users are HIGHLY unlikely to buy skins or anything.
On October 26 2015 02:01 Sufficiency wrote: [quote]
Riot is not going to make URF a custom game mode unless they are absolutely stupid.
URF draws a huge amount of traffic for Riot two years in a row now. I do not see any reason why Riot would give up this huge source of traffic and monetization and make it die in custom mode.
That's such bullshit.
Custom game Urf Mode wont kill the traffic for Matchmade Urf mode any more than custom game SR hasn't killed Solo or Premade Matchmade SR.
If anything, you'd see a lot of people who dont play SR, play Urf more regularly and buy skins and stuff to show off in Urf. And even if it would make Riot lose money in the short term... wtf since when is releasing something you already have to make your customers happy a bad thing?
How is it bullshit?
Comparing custom SR vs matchmade SR is the actual bullshit. It's not even remotely comparable.
How is custom game Urf, and matchmade Urf even remotely comparable then? I don't follow your logic.
You are saying:
1. Custom SR is available all year round. Has no impact on matchmade SR which is also available all year round. 2. Therefore, custom URF that is available all year round has no impact on matchmade URF which only happens a few weeks each year.
????????
Yeah...
Do you ever play games that are non-matchmade? In the Original DotA if you ever wanted a fair gaem you had to spend like 2 hours waiting for ten people around the same skill level to get in a game. Most of the time you'd still have one person who was playing the map for the first time and got absolutely pooped on... like a bronze level player randomly thrown into a challenger game.
I'd play matchmade urf over non-matchmade urf any day.
Sure it might kill your momentary week of hype, but I think you gain more traffic over the course of the year by having it. People LOVED Aram when the map first came out... there were always custom games for it.
The problem is exclusivity and time-limited offer of URF. You are still failing to address this issue.
Well, I guess the thing is I honestly dont see how limiting URF to a single week exclusive window makes riot any money. If I love the URF game mode, and only that game mode, why would I buy skins for URF? Thats pretty stupid.
I mean, sure they get more traffic than they typically would, but I dont think that demographic is the one that buys a bunch of skins. I also think that means more money spent on the server, and more people pissed at the inevitable server failures that come congruent with the increased traffic.
That said, what do I know... I dont do sales or marketing, but I think you make more money out of the good faith of just giving your customers URF 24/7. I've thought it was incredibly stupid to keep it a exclusive thing anyway; my wife would play URF religiously, its like a more lolzy less serious ARAM... I am sure there are several others that would as well, and I bet they probably buy a skin a month.
You should watch this.
*SNIP*
Well, that is unfortunate.
Sometimes it strikes me how different i am than most people... here we have another example.
I suppose this is why I am a Mechanical Engineer and not a Businessman.
Riot has a fair share of this problem itself - especially with their player behaviour team (the Tribunal). In my opinion, the fact that it's led by Lyte who is more of a scholar type of person without much business experience really hurt how it is perceived by the players. I have been thinking about writing an essay about it.
On October 26 2015 03:45 killerdog wrote: I mean, you need to look no further then this website to see people who never really play league, but come back to play a few urf games whenever urf is back in rotation. If it was always there they'd have no reason to come back after the novelty wore off.
But still, I don't buy that riot is in a situation where they need to deny useful content to their core userbase, just to pad numbers a few times a year. Especially when those users are HIGHLY unlikely to buy skins or anything.
If there is one thing I have learned about riot in those 5 years it is until enough people complain about something it will not change and so far there hasn't been that big of a whinefest.
Custom game Urf Mode wont kill the traffic for Matchmade Urf mode any more than custom game SR hasn't killed Solo or Premade Matchmade SR.
If anything, you'd see a lot of people who dont play SR, play Urf more regularly and buy skins and stuff to show off in Urf. And even if it would make Riot lose money in the short term... wtf since when is releasing something you already have to make your customers happy a bad thing?
How is it bullshit?
Comparing custom SR vs matchmade SR is the actual bullshit. It's not even remotely comparable.
How is custom game Urf, and matchmade Urf even remotely comparable then? I don't follow your logic.
You are saying:
1. Custom SR is available all year round. Has no impact on matchmade SR which is also available all year round. 2. Therefore, custom URF that is available all year round has no impact on matchmade URF which only happens a few weeks each year.
????????
Yeah...
Do you ever play games that are non-matchmade? In the Original DotA if you ever wanted a fair gaem you had to spend like 2 hours waiting for ten people around the same skill level to get in a game. Most of the time you'd still have one person who was playing the map for the first time and got absolutely pooped on... like a bronze level player randomly thrown into a challenger game.
I'd play matchmade urf over non-matchmade urf any day.
Sure it might kill your momentary week of hype, but I think you gain more traffic over the course of the year by having it. People LOVED Aram when the map first came out... there were always custom games for it.
The problem is exclusivity and time-limited offer of URF. You are still failing to address this issue.
Well, I guess the thing is I honestly dont see how limiting URF to a single week exclusive window makes riot any money. If I love the URF game mode, and only that game mode, why would I buy skins for URF? Thats pretty stupid.
I mean, sure they get more traffic than they typically would, but I dont think that demographic is the one that buys a bunch of skins. I also think that means more money spent on the server, and more people pissed at the inevitable server failures that come congruent with the increased traffic.
That said, what do I know... I dont do sales or marketing, but I think you make more money out of the good faith of just giving your customers URF 24/7. I've thought it was incredibly stupid to keep it a exclusive thing anyway; my wife would play URF religiously, its like a more lolzy less serious ARAM... I am sure there are several others that would as well, and I bet they probably buy a skin a month.
You should watch this.
*SNIP*
Well, that is unfortunate.
Sometimes it strikes me how different i am than most people... here we have another example.
I suppose this is why I am a Mechanical Engineer and not a Businessman.
Riot has a fair share of this problem itself - especially with their player behaviour team (the Tribunal). In my opinion, the fact that it's led by Lyte who is more of a scholar type of person without much business experience really hurt how it is perceived by the players. I have been thinking about writing an essay about it.
Do people actually not like Lyte? I dunno, he seems to back up everything he says with like 10 different peer reviewed studies or papers. It is kind of hard not to like Lyte.
I thought most of the stupid stuff people bitch about from Riot isn't with respect to Lyte, but with respect to other rioters stealing some buzzwords he said and twisting them to justify whatever? (Like, Sandbox mode, for example... Lyte himself said he didn't believe the mode would be "toxic")
On October 26 2015 02:08 Sufficiency wrote: [quote]
How is it bullshit?
Comparing custom SR vs matchmade SR is the actual bullshit. It's not even remotely comparable.
How is custom game Urf, and matchmade Urf even remotely comparable then? I don't follow your logic.
You are saying:
1. Custom SR is available all year round. Has no impact on matchmade SR which is also available all year round. 2. Therefore, custom URF that is available all year round has no impact on matchmade URF which only happens a few weeks each year.
????????
Yeah...
Do you ever play games that are non-matchmade? In the Original DotA if you ever wanted a fair gaem you had to spend like 2 hours waiting for ten people around the same skill level to get in a game. Most of the time you'd still have one person who was playing the map for the first time and got absolutely pooped on... like a bronze level player randomly thrown into a challenger game.
I'd play matchmade urf over non-matchmade urf any day.
Sure it might kill your momentary week of hype, but I think you gain more traffic over the course of the year by having it. People LOVED Aram when the map first came out... there were always custom games for it.
The problem is exclusivity and time-limited offer of URF. You are still failing to address this issue.
Well, I guess the thing is I honestly dont see how limiting URF to a single week exclusive window makes riot any money. If I love the URF game mode, and only that game mode, why would I buy skins for URF? Thats pretty stupid.
I mean, sure they get more traffic than they typically would, but I dont think that demographic is the one that buys a bunch of skins. I also think that means more money spent on the server, and more people pissed at the inevitable server failures that come congruent with the increased traffic.
That said, what do I know... I dont do sales or marketing, but I think you make more money out of the good faith of just giving your customers URF 24/7. I've thought it was incredibly stupid to keep it a exclusive thing anyway; my wife would play URF religiously, its like a more lolzy less serious ARAM... I am sure there are several others that would as well, and I bet they probably buy a skin a month.
You should watch this.
*SNIP*
Well, that is unfortunate.
Sometimes it strikes me how different i am than most people... here we have another example.
I suppose this is why I am a Mechanical Engineer and not a Businessman.
Riot has a fair share of this problem itself - especially with their player behaviour team (the Tribunal). In my opinion, the fact that it's led by Lyte who is more of a scholar type of person without much business experience really hurt how it is perceived by the players. I have been thinking about writing an essay about it.
Do people actually not like Lyte? I dunno, he seems to back up everything he says with like 10 different peer reviewed studies or papers. It is kind of hard not to like Lyte.
I thought most of the stupid stuff people bitch about from Riot isn't with respect to Lyte, but with respect to other rioters stealing some buzzwords he said and twisting them to justify whatever? (Like, Sandbox mode, for example... Lyte himself said he didn't believe the mode would be "toxic")
You obviously haven't been on reddit lately. His reputation is sort of in the gutters right now.
As far as the toxicity + punishment issue is concerned: while I do not have direct knowledge of how it works, I have full faith that the current automatic punishment system is a great system and definitely superior to the old collaborative filtering Tribunal. After all, Riot has years of experience, lots of training data, and a very knowledgeable team to make it happen. I believe without a doubt that it improves player experience overall. But going back to the JC Penny video, the problem is that Riot's system is probably good as a whole for the players but FEELS bad because it's done by a machine learning algorithm - and we as humans HATE being evaluated by a piece of computer program or a string of mathematical formula - especially if we are the ones who are getting punished.
So that's the thesis I have in mind. Not sure if I really want to write it up, since I still need to do a bit more research to flesh out some of the arguments a little better. Currently I do find the incentives lacking so I am putting it on the backburner for now.
On October 26 2015 02:08 Sufficiency wrote: [quote]
How is it bullshit?
Comparing custom SR vs matchmade SR is the actual bullshit. It's not even remotely comparable.
How is custom game Urf, and matchmade Urf even remotely comparable then? I don't follow your logic.
You are saying:
1. Custom SR is available all year round. Has no impact on matchmade SR which is also available all year round. 2. Therefore, custom URF that is available all year round has no impact on matchmade URF which only happens a few weeks each year.
????????
Yeah...
Do you ever play games that are non-matchmade? In the Original DotA if you ever wanted a fair gaem you had to spend like 2 hours waiting for ten people around the same skill level to get in a game. Most of the time you'd still have one person who was playing the map for the first time and got absolutely pooped on... like a bronze level player randomly thrown into a challenger game.
I'd play matchmade urf over non-matchmade urf any day.
Sure it might kill your momentary week of hype, but I think you gain more traffic over the course of the year by having it. People LOVED Aram when the map first came out... there were always custom games for it.
The problem is exclusivity and time-limited offer of URF. You are still failing to address this issue.
Well, I guess the thing is I honestly dont see how limiting URF to a single week exclusive window makes riot any money. If I love the URF game mode, and only that game mode, why would I buy skins for URF? Thats pretty stupid.
I mean, sure they get more traffic than they typically would, but I dont think that demographic is the one that buys a bunch of skins. I also think that means more money spent on the server, and more people pissed at the inevitable server failures that come congruent with the increased traffic.
That said, what do I know... I dont do sales or marketing, but I think you make more money out of the good faith of just giving your customers URF 24/7. I've thought it was incredibly stupid to keep it a exclusive thing anyway; my wife would play URF religiously, its like a more lolzy less serious ARAM... I am sure there are several others that would as well, and I bet they probably buy a skin a month.
You should watch this.
*SNIP*
Well, that is unfortunate.
Sometimes it strikes me how different i am than most people... here we have another example.
I suppose this is why I am a Mechanical Engineer and not a Businessman.
Riot has a fair share of this problem itself - especially with their player behaviour team (the Tribunal). In my opinion, the fact that it's led by Lyte who is more of a scholar type of person without much business experience really hurt how it is perceived by the players. I have been thinking about writing an essay about it.
Do people actually not like Lyte? I dunno, he seems to back up everything he says with like 10 different peer reviewed studies or papers. It is kind of hard not to like Lyte.
I thought most of the stupid stuff people bitch about from Riot isn't with respect to Lyte, but with respect to other rioters stealing some buzzwords he said and twisting them to justify whatever? (Like, Sandbox mode, for example... Lyte himself said he didn't believe the mode would be "toxic")
I've seen a great many of his posts, and he either refers to " peer reviewed " studies or links the same one over and over. I've actually never seen a well-sourced statement by him. Its just a step above the YouTube feminist pseudoscience that is out there, if at all.
On October 26 2015 06:27 Ketara wrote: Punishment system is a thing where actually working is vastly preferred to feels good, though.
I don't disagree with you. In fact I believe 100% that this is a better system than the old Tribunal. But the problem is that humans are not always rational. The way the new Tribunal is done can feel inhumane and unsympathetic.
This sort of goes back to the JC Penny video I've linked. Just because it's actually good does not mean it feels good. When it doesn't feel good, it's bad for business.
Have people noticed a difference since it has been implemented? The only difference I have seen is less intentional feeders since the border announcement but that could just be me/people around me getting lucky. The actual flaming part is the same.
How is custom game Urf, and matchmade Urf even remotely comparable then? I don't follow your logic.
You are saying:
1. Custom SR is available all year round. Has no impact on matchmade SR which is also available all year round. 2. Therefore, custom URF that is available all year round has no impact on matchmade URF which only happens a few weeks each year.
????????
Yeah...
Do you ever play games that are non-matchmade? In the Original DotA if you ever wanted a fair gaem you had to spend like 2 hours waiting for ten people around the same skill level to get in a game. Most of the time you'd still have one person who was playing the map for the first time and got absolutely pooped on... like a bronze level player randomly thrown into a challenger game.
I'd play matchmade urf over non-matchmade urf any day.
Sure it might kill your momentary week of hype, but I think you gain more traffic over the course of the year by having it. People LOVED Aram when the map first came out... there were always custom games for it.
The problem is exclusivity and time-limited offer of URF. You are still failing to address this issue.
Well, I guess the thing is I honestly dont see how limiting URF to a single week exclusive window makes riot any money. If I love the URF game mode, and only that game mode, why would I buy skins for URF? Thats pretty stupid.
I mean, sure they get more traffic than they typically would, but I dont think that demographic is the one that buys a bunch of skins. I also think that means more money spent on the server, and more people pissed at the inevitable server failures that come congruent with the increased traffic.
That said, what do I know... I dont do sales or marketing, but I think you make more money out of the good faith of just giving your customers URF 24/7. I've thought it was incredibly stupid to keep it a exclusive thing anyway; my wife would play URF religiously, its like a more lolzy less serious ARAM... I am sure there are several others that would as well, and I bet they probably buy a skin a month.
You should watch this.
*SNIP*
Well, that is unfortunate.
Sometimes it strikes me how different i am than most people... here we have another example.
I suppose this is why I am a Mechanical Engineer and not a Businessman.
Riot has a fair share of this problem itself - especially with their player behaviour team (the Tribunal). In my opinion, the fact that it's led by Lyte who is more of a scholar type of person without much business experience really hurt how it is perceived by the players. I have been thinking about writing an essay about it.
Do people actually not like Lyte? I dunno, he seems to back up everything he says with like 10 different peer reviewed studies or papers. It is kind of hard not to like Lyte.
I thought most of the stupid stuff people bitch about from Riot isn't with respect to Lyte, but with respect to other rioters stealing some buzzwords he said and twisting them to justify whatever? (Like, Sandbox mode, for example... Lyte himself said he didn't believe the mode would be "toxic")
I've seen a great many of his posts, and he either refers to " peer reviewed " studies or links the same one over and over. I've actually never seen a well-sourced statement by him. Its just a step above the YouTube feminist pseudoscience that is out there, if at all.
Out of curiosity, did you check the sources on the one he linked? There were likely another 50 papers referenced.
In addition, I bet a large part of the studies he'd like to link are behind pay walls.
Getting a Ph.D in Behavioral Sciences is no joke, he knows what he is talking about and isn't spewing pseudoscience.... buddy went to college for 8 years minimum, assuming he had like a 4.0 through the whole shebang.
Dont fool yourself, Lyte is probably one of the smartest and most talented people at Riot, and the industry for that matter.
On October 26 2015 06:37 nafta wrote: Have people noticed a difference since it has been implemented? The only difference I have seen is less intentional feeders since the border announcement but that could just be me/people around me getting lucky. The actual flaming part is the same.
I have for sure.
There has been considerably less intentional feeding, less flaming, less raging and trolling in general.
Atleast, maybe people are less obvious about it. I have noticed it. I think some people forget how absolutely ragey and ridiculous LoL was in S1.
On October 26 2015 02:12 Sufficiency wrote: [quote]
You are saying:
1. Custom SR is available all year round. Has no impact on matchmade SR which is also available all year round. 2. Therefore, custom URF that is available all year round has no impact on matchmade URF which only happens a few weeks each year.
????????
Yeah...
Do you ever play games that are non-matchmade? In the Original DotA if you ever wanted a fair gaem you had to spend like 2 hours waiting for ten people around the same skill level to get in a game. Most of the time you'd still have one person who was playing the map for the first time and got absolutely pooped on... like a bronze level player randomly thrown into a challenger game.
I'd play matchmade urf over non-matchmade urf any day.
Sure it might kill your momentary week of hype, but I think you gain more traffic over the course of the year by having it. People LOVED Aram when the map first came out... there were always custom games for it.
The problem is exclusivity and time-limited offer of URF. You are still failing to address this issue.
Well, I guess the thing is I honestly dont see how limiting URF to a single week exclusive window makes riot any money. If I love the URF game mode, and only that game mode, why would I buy skins for URF? Thats pretty stupid.
I mean, sure they get more traffic than they typically would, but I dont think that demographic is the one that buys a bunch of skins. I also think that means more money spent on the server, and more people pissed at the inevitable server failures that come congruent with the increased traffic.
That said, what do I know... I dont do sales or marketing, but I think you make more money out of the good faith of just giving your customers URF 24/7. I've thought it was incredibly stupid to keep it a exclusive thing anyway; my wife would play URF religiously, its like a more lolzy less serious ARAM... I am sure there are several others that would as well, and I bet they probably buy a skin a month.
You should watch this.
*SNIP*
Well, that is unfortunate.
Sometimes it strikes me how different i am than most people... here we have another example.
I suppose this is why I am a Mechanical Engineer and not a Businessman.
Riot has a fair share of this problem itself - especially with their player behaviour team (the Tribunal). In my opinion, the fact that it's led by Lyte who is more of a scholar type of person without much business experience really hurt how it is perceived by the players. I have been thinking about writing an essay about it.
Do people actually not like Lyte? I dunno, he seems to back up everything he says with like 10 different peer reviewed studies or papers. It is kind of hard not to like Lyte.
I thought most of the stupid stuff people bitch about from Riot isn't with respect to Lyte, but with respect to other rioters stealing some buzzwords he said and twisting them to justify whatever? (Like, Sandbox mode, for example... Lyte himself said he didn't believe the mode would be "toxic")
I've seen a great many of his posts, and he either refers to " peer reviewed " studies or links the same one over and over. I've actually never seen a well-sourced statement by him. Its just a step above the YouTube feminist pseudoscience that is out there, if at all.
Out of curiosity, did you check the sources on the one he linked? There were likely another 50 papers referenced.
In addition, I bet a large part of the studies he'd like to link are behind pay walls.
Getting a Ph.D in Behavioral Sciences is no joke, he knows what he is talking about and isn't spewing pseudoscience.... buddy went to college for 8 years minimum, assuming he had like a 4.0 through the whole shebang.
Dont fool yourself, Lyte is probably one of the smartest and most talented people at Riot, and the industry for that matter.
I respectfully disagree. Getting a PhD in biological science (he did it in neuroscience) is very easy. Sure, a lot of time needs to be spent on it, but it's nothing special as far as the degree is concerned. In fact, if you have a degree in mechanical engineering, you should be more than smart enough to do a PhD in neuroscience if you have the time - except you will be greeted with a bleak future as a PhD in biological science gives you very little room career wise and there are way too many of them out there to compete with you.
And no, I highly doubt it that he has 4.0 GPA. Those people tends to go to medical school or go for PhD + MD programs if they REALLY like research. Even if he was an overachiever in university, a career in a game company is honestly a joke for someone with a PhD.
We cannot deny that he is an intellectual; but to say Lyte is "one of the smartest and most talented people at Riot" is a bit of a joke.
Could you link some of those lyte papers? The ones I have seen are not what I would call "reliable".
Well people not writing anything or you muting them and you not seeing anything not much of a difference lol. Even s2 when everyone was 24/7 flaming it was basically the same as now.
On October 26 2015 02:12 Sufficiency wrote: [quote]
You are saying:
1. Custom SR is available all year round. Has no impact on matchmade SR which is also available all year round. 2. Therefore, custom URF that is available all year round has no impact on matchmade URF which only happens a few weeks each year.
????????
Yeah...
Do you ever play games that are non-matchmade? In the Original DotA if you ever wanted a fair gaem you had to spend like 2 hours waiting for ten people around the same skill level to get in a game. Most of the time you'd still have one person who was playing the map for the first time and got absolutely pooped on... like a bronze level player randomly thrown into a challenger game.
I'd play matchmade urf over non-matchmade urf any day.
Sure it might kill your momentary week of hype, but I think you gain more traffic over the course of the year by having it. People LOVED Aram when the map first came out... there were always custom games for it.
The problem is exclusivity and time-limited offer of URF. You are still failing to address this issue.
Well, I guess the thing is I honestly dont see how limiting URF to a single week exclusive window makes riot any money. If I love the URF game mode, and only that game mode, why would I buy skins for URF? Thats pretty stupid.
I mean, sure they get more traffic than they typically would, but I dont think that demographic is the one that buys a bunch of skins. I also think that means more money spent on the server, and more people pissed at the inevitable server failures that come congruent with the increased traffic.
That said, what do I know... I dont do sales or marketing, but I think you make more money out of the good faith of just giving your customers URF 24/7. I've thought it was incredibly stupid to keep it a exclusive thing anyway; my wife would play URF religiously, its like a more lolzy less serious ARAM... I am sure there are several others that would as well, and I bet they probably buy a skin a month.
You should watch this.
*SNIP*
Well, that is unfortunate.
Sometimes it strikes me how different i am than most people... here we have another example.
I suppose this is why I am a Mechanical Engineer and not a Businessman.
Riot has a fair share of this problem itself - especially with their player behaviour team (the Tribunal). In my opinion, the fact that it's led by Lyte who is more of a scholar type of person without much business experience really hurt how it is perceived by the players. I have been thinking about writing an essay about it.
Do people actually not like Lyte? I dunno, he seems to back up everything he says with like 10 different peer reviewed studies or papers. It is kind of hard not to like Lyte.
I thought most of the stupid stuff people bitch about from Riot isn't with respect to Lyte, but with respect to other rioters stealing some buzzwords he said and twisting them to justify whatever? (Like, Sandbox mode, for example... Lyte himself said he didn't believe the mode would be "toxic")
I've seen a great many of his posts, and he either refers to " peer reviewed " studies or links the same one over and over. I've actually never seen a well-sourced statement by him. Its just a step above the YouTube feminist pseudoscience that is out there, if at all.
Out of curiosity, did you check the sources on the one he linked? There were likely another 50 papers referenced.
In addition, I bet a large part of the studies he'd like to link are behind pay walls.
Getting a Ph.D in Behavioral Sciences is no joke, he knows what he is talking about and isn't spewing pseudoscience.... buddy went to college for 8 years minimum, assuming he had like a 4.0 through the whole shebang.
Dont fool yourself, Lyte is probably one of the smartest and most talented people at Riot, and the industry for that matter.
The one I have seen linked is probably not the one you are referencing, because its a single paper on SSRN. I don't disagree that he's probably smart, but from the evidence presented (that I've seen, and I don't follow him on twitlonger or troll his releases) he seems to be merely pushing his personal POV and using his degree as an appeal to authority.
He hasn't, as far as I have seen, released a whitepaper that is well sourced on the subject. Instead he does what a lot of online figures do, and picks and chooses the weakest arguments put up against his position (on reddit, LOL forums, twitter) and refutes them (because he has chosen the 6th Grade level position to argue against).
The classic description I would have for him is "a pyromanic in a field of strawmen."
Do you ever play games that are non-matchmade? In the Original DotA if you ever wanted a fair gaem you had to spend like 2 hours waiting for ten people around the same skill level to get in a game. Most of the time you'd still have one person who was playing the map for the first time and got absolutely pooped on... like a bronze level player randomly thrown into a challenger game.
I'd play matchmade urf over non-matchmade urf any day.
Sure it might kill your momentary week of hype, but I think you gain more traffic over the course of the year by having it. People LOVED Aram when the map first came out... there were always custom games for it.
The problem is exclusivity and time-limited offer of URF. You are still failing to address this issue.
Well, I guess the thing is I honestly dont see how limiting URF to a single week exclusive window makes riot any money. If I love the URF game mode, and only that game mode, why would I buy skins for URF? Thats pretty stupid.
I mean, sure they get more traffic than they typically would, but I dont think that demographic is the one that buys a bunch of skins. I also think that means more money spent on the server, and more people pissed at the inevitable server failures that come congruent with the increased traffic.
That said, what do I know... I dont do sales or marketing, but I think you make more money out of the good faith of just giving your customers URF 24/7. I've thought it was incredibly stupid to keep it a exclusive thing anyway; my wife would play URF religiously, its like a more lolzy less serious ARAM... I am sure there are several others that would as well, and I bet they probably buy a skin a month.
You should watch this.
*SNIP*
Well, that is unfortunate.
Sometimes it strikes me how different i am than most people... here we have another example.
I suppose this is why I am a Mechanical Engineer and not a Businessman.
Riot has a fair share of this problem itself - especially with their player behaviour team (the Tribunal). In my opinion, the fact that it's led by Lyte who is more of a scholar type of person without much business experience really hurt how it is perceived by the players. I have been thinking about writing an essay about it.
Do people actually not like Lyte? I dunno, he seems to back up everything he says with like 10 different peer reviewed studies or papers. It is kind of hard not to like Lyte.
I thought most of the stupid stuff people bitch about from Riot isn't with respect to Lyte, but with respect to other rioters stealing some buzzwords he said and twisting them to justify whatever? (Like, Sandbox mode, for example... Lyte himself said he didn't believe the mode would be "toxic")
I've seen a great many of his posts, and he either refers to " peer reviewed " studies or links the same one over and over. I've actually never seen a well-sourced statement by him. Its just a step above the YouTube feminist pseudoscience that is out there, if at all.
Out of curiosity, did you check the sources on the one he linked? There were likely another 50 papers referenced.
In addition, I bet a large part of the studies he'd like to link are behind pay walls.
Getting a Ph.D in Behavioral Sciences is no joke, he knows what he is talking about and isn't spewing pseudoscience.... buddy went to college for 8 years minimum, assuming he had like a 4.0 through the whole shebang.
Dont fool yourself, Lyte is probably one of the smartest and most talented people at Riot, and the industry for that matter.
I respectfully disagree. Getting a PhD in biological science (he did it in neuroscience) is very easy. Sure, a lot of time needs to be spent on it, but it's nothing special as far as the degree is concerned. In fact, if you have a degree in mechanical engineering, you should be more than smart enough to do a PhD in neuroscience if you have the time - except you will be greeted with a bleak future as a PhD in biological science gives you very little room career wise and there are way too many of them out there to compete with you.
And no, I highly doubt it that he has 4.0 GPA. Those people tends to go to medical school or go for PhD + MD programs if they REALLY like research.
We cannot deny that he is an intellectual; but to say Lyte is "one of the smartest and most talented people at Riot" is a bit of a joke.
I dont think it is fair for you to judge how easy or difficult his doctorate was to get. I think by definition getting a doctorate is very difficult, no matter what it is in. Thats a crap ton of dedication, stress, and risk. I respect that a lot, personally.
I never said he did, I said him finishing his Ph.D in 8 years meant he probably had grades similar to that. I know at the UofA, for me to get into a Masters program in engineering, you need a GPA of at least 3.8... so if you dont have that from your degree you need to do some "GPA boosting" in order to be considered. I guess I am assuming that this is the case for all programs at every post secondary institute. I could be wrong on this.
And, I would argue that Lyte must be one of the smartest / most talented people at Riot... He is what, 28? Basically that means he finished his degree at 26, so after 2 years he basically runs a department at one of the largest multinational companies in the industry... I think it is pretty clear Riot thinks he is one of their best people. You are right though, that is speculation.
On October 26 2015 02:29 Sufficiency wrote: [quote]
The problem is exclusivity and time-limited offer of URF. You are still failing to address this issue.
Well, I guess the thing is I honestly dont see how limiting URF to a single week exclusive window makes riot any money. If I love the URF game mode, and only that game mode, why would I buy skins for URF? Thats pretty stupid.
I mean, sure they get more traffic than they typically would, but I dont think that demographic is the one that buys a bunch of skins. I also think that means more money spent on the server, and more people pissed at the inevitable server failures that come congruent with the increased traffic.
That said, what do I know... I dont do sales or marketing, but I think you make more money out of the good faith of just giving your customers URF 24/7. I've thought it was incredibly stupid to keep it a exclusive thing anyway; my wife would play URF religiously, its like a more lolzy less serious ARAM... I am sure there are several others that would as well, and I bet they probably buy a skin a month.
You should watch this.
*SNIP*
Well, that is unfortunate.
Sometimes it strikes me how different i am than most people... here we have another example.
I suppose this is why I am a Mechanical Engineer and not a Businessman.
Riot has a fair share of this problem itself - especially with their player behaviour team (the Tribunal). In my opinion, the fact that it's led by Lyte who is more of a scholar type of person without much business experience really hurt how it is perceived by the players. I have been thinking about writing an essay about it.
Do people actually not like Lyte? I dunno, he seems to back up everything he says with like 10 different peer reviewed studies or papers. It is kind of hard not to like Lyte.
I thought most of the stupid stuff people bitch about from Riot isn't with respect to Lyte, but with respect to other rioters stealing some buzzwords he said and twisting them to justify whatever? (Like, Sandbox mode, for example... Lyte himself said he didn't believe the mode would be "toxic")
I've seen a great many of his posts, and he either refers to " peer reviewed " studies or links the same one over and over. I've actually never seen a well-sourced statement by him. Its just a step above the YouTube feminist pseudoscience that is out there, if at all.
Out of curiosity, did you check the sources on the one he linked? There were likely another 50 papers referenced.
In addition, I bet a large part of the studies he'd like to link are behind pay walls.
Getting a Ph.D in Behavioral Sciences is no joke, he knows what he is talking about and isn't spewing pseudoscience.... buddy went to college for 8 years minimum, assuming he had like a 4.0 through the whole shebang.
Dont fool yourself, Lyte is probably one of the smartest and most talented people at Riot, and the industry for that matter.
I respectfully disagree. Getting a PhD in biological science (he did it in neuroscience) is very easy. Sure, a lot of time needs to be spent on it, but it's nothing special as far as the degree is concerned. In fact, if you have a degree in mechanical engineering, you should be more than smart enough to do a PhD in neuroscience if you have the time - except you will be greeted with a bleak future as a PhD in biological science gives you very little room career wise and there are way too many of them out there to compete with you.
And no, I highly doubt it that he has 4.0 GPA. Those people tends to go to medical school or go for PhD + MD programs if they REALLY like research.
We cannot deny that he is an intellectual; but to say Lyte is "one of the smartest and most talented people at Riot" is a bit of a joke.
I dont think it is fair for you to judge how easy or difficult his doctorate was to get. I think by definition getting a doctorate is very difficult, no matter what it is in. Thats a crap ton of dedication, stress, and risk. I respect that a lot, personally.
I never said he did, I said him finishing his Ph.D in 8 years meant he probably had grades similar to that. I know at the UofA, for me to get into a Masters program in engineering, you need a GPA of at least 3.8... so if you dont have that from your degree you need to do some "GPA boosting" in order to be considered. I guess I am assuming that this is the case for all programs at every post secondary institute. I could be wrong on this.
And, I would argue that Lyte must be one of the smartest / most talented people at Riot... He is what, 28? Basically that means he finished his degree at 26, so after 2 years he basically runs a department at one of the largest multinational companies in the industry... I think it is pretty clear Riot thinks he is one of their best people. You are right though, that is speculation.
OK let's get this straight:
A PhD in neuroscience is nothing impressive. It's a simple degree that does not require much intellectual requirement - unlike someone who has a PhD in physics, mathematics, or a related field. It's a dime in a dozen degree. Granted, he got his PhD in University of Washington which IMO is fairly good as far as graduate departments go, but overall you are giving his degree way too much credits.
Also I seriously doubt you need a 3.8 GPA for a PhD in biological science. Unlike other departments, most high achievers in this field typically go to medical school so the "cream on top" is already removed.
Anyway, I think we are digressing too much from it. I honestly don't care about his degree; I do think that when people are being sarcastic about his degree on the internet (especially on reddit) it's a symptom caused by the impersonal new Tribunal which lacks human empathy.
Well, I guess the thing is I honestly dont see how limiting URF to a single week exclusive window makes riot any money. If I love the URF game mode, and only that game mode, why would I buy skins for URF? Thats pretty stupid.
I mean, sure they get more traffic than they typically would, but I dont think that demographic is the one that buys a bunch of skins. I also think that means more money spent on the server, and more people pissed at the inevitable server failures that come congruent with the increased traffic.
That said, what do I know... I dont do sales or marketing, but I think you make more money out of the good faith of just giving your customers URF 24/7. I've thought it was incredibly stupid to keep it a exclusive thing anyway; my wife would play URF religiously, its like a more lolzy less serious ARAM... I am sure there are several others that would as well, and I bet they probably buy a skin a month.
You should watch this.
*SNIP*
Well, that is unfortunate.
Sometimes it strikes me how different i am than most people... here we have another example.
I suppose this is why I am a Mechanical Engineer and not a Businessman.
Riot has a fair share of this problem itself - especially with their player behaviour team (the Tribunal). In my opinion, the fact that it's led by Lyte who is more of a scholar type of person without much business experience really hurt how it is perceived by the players. I have been thinking about writing an essay about it.
Do people actually not like Lyte? I dunno, he seems to back up everything he says with like 10 different peer reviewed studies or papers. It is kind of hard not to like Lyte.
I thought most of the stupid stuff people bitch about from Riot isn't with respect to Lyte, but with respect to other rioters stealing some buzzwords he said and twisting them to justify whatever? (Like, Sandbox mode, for example... Lyte himself said he didn't believe the mode would be "toxic")
I've seen a great many of his posts, and he either refers to " peer reviewed " studies or links the same one over and over. I've actually never seen a well-sourced statement by him. Its just a step above the YouTube feminist pseudoscience that is out there, if at all.
Out of curiosity, did you check the sources on the one he linked? There were likely another 50 papers referenced.
In addition, I bet a large part of the studies he'd like to link are behind pay walls.
Getting a Ph.D in Behavioral Sciences is no joke, he knows what he is talking about and isn't spewing pseudoscience.... buddy went to college for 8 years minimum, assuming he had like a 4.0 through the whole shebang.
Dont fool yourself, Lyte is probably one of the smartest and most talented people at Riot, and the industry for that matter.
I respectfully disagree. Getting a PhD in biological science (he did it in neuroscience) is very easy. Sure, a lot of time needs to be spent on it, but it's nothing special as far as the degree is concerned. In fact, if you have a degree in mechanical engineering, you should be more than smart enough to do a PhD in neuroscience if you have the time - except you will be greeted with a bleak future as a PhD in biological science gives you very little room career wise and there are way too many of them out there to compete with you.
And no, I highly doubt it that he has 4.0 GPA. Those people tends to go to medical school or go for PhD + MD programs if they REALLY like research.
We cannot deny that he is an intellectual; but to say Lyte is "one of the smartest and most talented people at Riot" is a bit of a joke.
I dont think it is fair for you to judge how easy or difficult his doctorate was to get. I think by definition getting a doctorate is very difficult, no matter what it is in. Thats a crap ton of dedication, stress, and risk. I respect that a lot, personally.
I never said he did, I said him finishing his Ph.D in 8 years meant he probably had grades similar to that. I know at the UofA, for me to get into a Masters program in engineering, you need a GPA of at least 3.8... so if you dont have that from your degree you need to do some "GPA boosting" in order to be considered. I guess I am assuming that this is the case for all programs at every post secondary institute. I could be wrong on this.
And, I would argue that Lyte must be one of the smartest / most talented people at Riot... He is what, 28? Basically that means he finished his degree at 26, so after 2 years he basically runs a department at one of the largest multinational companies in the industry... I think it is pretty clear Riot thinks he is one of their best people. You are right though, that is speculation.
OK let's get this straight:
A PhD in neuroscience is nothing impressive. It's a simple degree that does not require much intellectual requirement - unlike someone who has a PhD in physics, mathematics, or a related field. It's a dime in a dozen degree. Granted, he got his PhD in University of Washington which IMO is fairly good as far as graduate departments go, but overall you are giving his degree way too much credits.
Also I seriously doubt you need a 3.8 GPA for a PhD in biological science.
I think calling a Ph.D of any kind "unimpressive" is rather short-sighted, especially not knowing what it took for him to get it. Don't get me wrong, I'm certain there are plenty of Ph.Ds out there who still don't know what they are doing, but this is a rather blanket statement to make. "Dime a dozen" is also curious because of the percentage of people out there who earn Ph.Ds at all is presumably rather low. Are there statistics out there that show that there are far more neuroscience Ph.Ds or information that justifies the ease of getting them?
On October 26 2015 07:10 Ketara wrote: Wow Sufficiency, that's incredibly condescending and egotistical of you.
On October 26 2015 07:10 Ketara wrote: Wow Sufficiency, that's incredibly condescending and egotistical of you.
Sorry if I sounded this way. But to go from PhD in neuroscience to "smartest person in Riot Games" (by the way, Riot has many people with advanced degrees and it has almost 1000 employees in total?) is very far fetched.
I don't deny his dedication which led him to complete his degree, however.
On October 26 2015 07:10 Ketara wrote: Wow Sufficiency, that's incredibly condescending and egotistical of you.
Sorry if I sounded this way. But to go from PhD in neuroscience to "smartest person in Riot Games" (by the way, Riot has many people with advanced degrees and it has almost 1000 employees in total?) is very far fetched.
I don't deny his dedication which led him to complete his degree, however.
...
You pretty much did deny it. You don't need a ton of dedication to do something that is easy. As far as I am concerned, unless you took that course-load and associated courses, I dont really think you have any ability to disregard someones credentials like that. As far as I am concerned, that is incredibly disrespectful. How do you quantify difficulty of a degree or program? I personally found all the mechanics / math courses in my Engineering Degree to be quite easy, however many people struggle with them. Am I smarter? Not neccesarily, just more inclined to do math and mechanics.
You are also twisting my words. I never said he was the smartest person there, just one of the smartest... All I implied was that he was one of their higher level employees, which you would be stupid to disagree with. In a company with over 1000 employees, a department head IS most definitely a higher level employee. Lyte has hundreds of people working under him.
Degrees aside, whether 4.0 or not does not matter, whether Lyte has a PhD or not does not matter. What Lyte has been doing clearly does not work, and he just keeps on trashing his reputation with his ask.fm account.
On October 26 2015 09:14 crimethinking wrote: Degrees aside, whether 4.0 or not does not matter, whether Lyte has a PhD or not does not matter. What Lyte has been doing clearly does not work, and he just keeps on trashing his reputation with his ask.fm account.
Why doesn't it work?
I feel like games are consistently less toxic than they were 1 or 2 years ago.
On October 26 2015 09:14 crimethinking wrote: Degrees aside, whether 4.0 or not does not matter, whether Lyte has a PhD or not does not matter. What Lyte has been doing clearly does not work, and he just keeps on trashing his reputation with his ask.fm account.
Why doesn't it work?
I feel like games are consistently less toxic than they were 1 or 2 years ago.
I'd agree with this as well. I remember people in like 1700 ELO ranked games just force feeding because someone picked the role they wanted... nearly every other game.
If you went a game without being told someone hoped your mom and dad got cancer and died right in front of you, you felt like you had just been in the nicest game, even if the entire chat log was things that by todays standards would be ragey as all hell.
In the very least, you had racial slurs, sexist exclamations, and general assholery in literally every single game. I've played 45 ranked games in the last two weeks, and I literally have not seen one troll. The difference is incredibly substantial.
Pretty sure the Tribunal works, and works far better than it used to two years ago.
That being said, I believe the best product for the consumer (be it electronics, clothing, or the Tribunal) isn't entirely due its intricate engineering or quality; a lot of it has to do with how it is being sold and how it feels for the consumer (see that JC Penny video again). While I have never been punished by the Tribunal and probably never will, it is my opinion that the Tribunal possibly lacks "the human element" and human empathy. As a result, it feels bad (especially if you are the one being punished). The way some of the Rioters behave on their ask.fm and other social media doesn't help with this either - sometimes I feel that the way they act is a little obnoxious. I think the way people call out Lyte's PhD degree sarcastically reflects this.
I think what Riot's behaviour team needs (and maybe Riot as a whole) is better PR discipline as well as "selling" their product better. As someone with fairly heavy academic background, I think I can see how Lyte thinks about the Tribunal - it's about maximizing prediction accuracy while minimizing false positives. In fact I'd agree with him that this is the way to go. However, treating players as merely numbers and statistics is probably not the best way to sell the Tribunal to the players.
Riot for me has a fairly long history of doing the right / intelligent thing, and then submitting it to the public in a way that makes smart decisions look awful.
Might be because these academics making good systems are the same people trying to explain them.
iCanada I'd still like to see his litany of sources, if they exist.
Also, Ketara/Suff I disagree. They aren't really making great decisions because IMO Riot has a great deal of groupthink. Its not just in the tribunal stuff (where I would say they need to be much more targeted, and give better notice to what they are targeting), it happens with champion releases/reworks, the LCS format, and how they generally get very defensive on Ask.fm, twitter, reddit, etc. It appears to me that often they have never heard these criticisms until after the patch/announcement goes live. They are a big company (personnel wise) but it appears that each department needs an outside voice that is actually listened to. I have a friend who is a Sr. Dev at NCSoft and he would be perfect for shaking up Riot in a positive way, but he tells me their hiring process actually perpetuates this situation.
On October 26 2015 12:13 cLutZ wrote: iCanada I'd still like to see his litany of sources, if they exist.
Also, Ketara/Suff I disagree. They aren't really making great decisions because IMO Riot has a great deal of groupthink. Its not just in the tribunal stuff (where I would say they need to be much more targeted, and give better notice to what they are targeting), it happens with champion releases/reworks, the LCS format, and how they generally get very defensive on Ask.fm, twitter, reddit, etc. It appears to me that often they have never heard these criticisms until after the patch/announcement goes live. They are a big company (personnel wise) but it appears that each department needs an outside voice that is actually listened to. I have a friend who is a Sr. Dev at NCSoft and he would be perfect for shaking up Riot in a positive way, but he tells me their hiring process actually perpetuates this situation.
Maybe. But honestly all teams have this problem more or less and it's not the most crucial problem Riot has right now.
Going back to the PR training part, let's look at this askfm post by Lyte for a moment:
Someone asked Lyte what happened to the 4v5 compensation system Lyte promised from ~1 year ago.
Lyte basically said the following:
1. 4v5 compensation is no longer being developed. 2. Here are some totally unrelated stuff that we did develop to distract you! 3. 4v5 happens rarely, so we decided to do "some other more important stuff" instead.
The third point is interesting because I have done an analysis on this too and I basically agree with his statement. So as far as the statement itself is concerned I believe he is speaking the truth - 4v5, objectively, is not the biggest issue with the game right now. The problem is that you should NEVER say to the customers (the players) matter-of-fact-ly that the customers' concerns are "not important". It's mind-bogglingly bad PR.
I think in this instance, Lyte spoke extremely poorly. I don't think the problem here is with groupthink; the problem here is his lack of "business mindset" and - sorry this sounds harsh - empathy. I really think he should stop using his askfm.
You may argue that I am basically saying the same thing on my analysis, but I do not work for Riot and I am (generally speaking) a nobody, so it's not comparable. Interestingly, every time my analysis gets mentioned (either by me or posted by someone else) there are a lot of very emotionally charged responses - because 4v5 sucks and it is a problem. This is something which I didn't grasp really well when I originally wrote the analysis myself. I, too, lacked empathy approaching this issue and could have phrased certain things better.
I think that implementing an instant feedback that punishes players for bad behaviour right after the game + leaverbuster that just bans people that AFK/Leave the game is a very good way to deal with 4v5, as those situations are not likely to repeat in the future.
On October 26 2015 12:13 cLutZ wrote: iCanada I'd still like to see his litany of sources, if they exist.
Also, Ketara/Suff I disagree. They aren't really making great decisions because IMO Riot has a great deal of groupthink. Its not just in the tribunal stuff (where I would say they need to be much more targeted, and give better notice to what they are targeting), it happens with champion releases/reworks, the LCS format, and how they generally get very defensive on Ask.fm, twitter, reddit, etc. It appears to me that often they have never heard these criticisms until after the patch/announcement goes live. They are a big company (personnel wise) but it appears that each department needs an outside voice that is actually listened to. I have a friend who is a Sr. Dev at NCSoft and he would be perfect for shaking up Riot in a positive way, but he tells me their hiring process actually perpetuates this situation.
Maybe. But honestly all teams have this problem more or less and it's not the most crucial problem Riot has right now.
Going back to the PR training part, let's look at this askfm post by Lyte for a moment:
Someone asked Lyte what happened to the 4v5 compensation system Lyte promised from ~1 year ago.
Lyte basically said the following:
1. 4v5 compensation is no longer being developed. 2. Here are some totally unrelated stuff that we did develop to distract you! 3. 4v5 happens rarely, so we decided to do "some other more important stuff" instead.
The third point is interesting because I have done an analysis on this too and I basically agree with his statement. So as far as the statement itself is concerned I believe he is speaking the truth - 4v5, objectively, is not the biggest issue with the game right now. The problem is that you should NEVER say to the customers (the players) matter-of-fact-ly that the customers' concerns are "not important". It's mind-bogglingly bad PR.
I think in this instance, Lyte spoke extremely poorly. I don't think the problem here is with groupthink; the problem here is his lack of "business mindset" and - sorry this sounds harsh - empathy. I really think he should stop using his askfm.
You may argue that I am basically saying the same thing on my analysis, but I do not work for Riot and I am (generally speaking) a nobody, so it's not comparable. Interestingly, every time my analysis gets mentioned (either by me or posted by someone else) there are a lot of very emotionally charged responses - because 4v5 sucks and it is a problem. This is something which I didn't grasp really well when I originally wrote the analysis myself. I, too, lacked empathy approaching this issue and could have phrased certain things better.
if someone afk's at the 10 or 12 minute mark, I'd count that as a 4v5 too, and I've had that happen in definitely >2-3% of my games in the last month or two.
People getting mad because someone said something, or did something, or whatever then just abandoning an even/winning game.
I think the 25+ min win percentage bump is pretty easy to figure out, obviously you surrender at 20 automatically in almost all 4v5 situations unless you are absolutely crushing them in the lanes you do have, so getting them to come back at that point is just an extra body for them to have to deal with before they can get to your fed people.
4v5 is quite possibly the worst feeling in this game for everyone involved, the winning team and the losing team, even the 5-10 min bracket you have listed is a game I just want to be able to leave, I don't even care if it's not loss forgiven it feels like a punishment, like the timeout when you dodge, feels less bad than min 10 to min 20 in this instance.
there's a reason the community brings it up a lot, when it happens it sticks with you for a couple of days.
In the last month more than 10% of my games have been 4v5s. I've played a lot, so it's most likely not just variance. I personally think it's a pretty big issue.
On October 26 2015 12:13 cLutZ wrote: iCanada I'd still like to see his litany of sources, if they exist.
Also, Ketara/Suff I disagree. They aren't really making great decisions because IMO Riot has a great deal of groupthink. Its not just in the tribunal stuff (where I would say they need to be much more targeted, and give better notice to what they are targeting), it happens with champion releases/reworks, the LCS format, and how they generally get very defensive on Ask.fm, twitter, reddit, etc. It appears to me that often they have never heard these criticisms until after the patch/announcement goes live. They are a big company (personnel wise) but it appears that each department needs an outside voice that is actually listened to. I have a friend who is a Sr. Dev at NCSoft and he would be perfect for shaking up Riot in a positive way, but he tells me their hiring process actually perpetuates this situation.
Maybe. But honestly all teams have this problem more or less and it's not the most crucial problem Riot has right now.
Going back to the PR training part, let's look at this askfm post by Lyte for a moment:
Someone asked Lyte what happened to the 4v5 compensation system Lyte promised from ~1 year ago.
Lyte basically said the following:
1. 4v5 compensation is no longer being developed. 2. Here are some totally unrelated stuff that we did develop to distract you! 3. 4v5 happens rarely, so we decided to do "some other more important stuff" instead.
The third point is interesting because I have done an analysis on this too and I basically agree with his statement. So as far as the statement itself is concerned I believe he is speaking the truth - 4v5, objectively, is not the biggest issue with the game right now. The problem is that you should NEVER say to the customers (the players) matter-of-fact-ly that the customers' concerns are "not important". It's mind-bogglingly bad PR.
I think in this instance, Lyte spoke extremely poorly. I don't think the problem here is with groupthink; the problem here is his lack of "business mindset" and - sorry this sounds harsh - empathy. I really think he should stop using his askfm.
You may argue that I am basically saying the same thing on my analysis, but I do not work for Riot and I am (generally speaking) a nobody, so it's not comparable. Interestingly, every time my analysis gets mentioned (either by me or posted by someone else) there are a lot of very emotionally charged responses - because 4v5 sucks and it is a problem. This is something which I didn't grasp really well when I originally wrote the analysis myself. I, too, lacked empathy approaching this issue and could have phrased certain things better.
His answers there don't even make sense, because leaver buster should result in an mmr compensation so the system is more accurate. Then he just says that the LP part on the front end has been more challenging because its hard to balance not punishing losers with rewarding winners. Bing bang boom, any college grad in the room that doesn't drink the riot coolade says this and its fixed as a statement ( mostly). IMO you are being too charitable in not living the two.
crushed garen in lane, late game he still kept ulting me for 1.6k true dmg with a full tank build, what a fun concept and great idea by riot hope we see more true dmg in the future ...
So I've been thinking about playing in a window since my "mechanics" are ok but I definitely could use help with tunnel-visioning. Is there any consesus on whether 4:3 or 16 is better, playing on 1080p 24" should i go for 720p, or is that too small and I should aim for 800-900 height?
On October 26 2015 22:18 AlterKot wrote: So I've been thinking about playing in a window since my "mechanics" are ok but I definitely could use help with tunnel-visioning. Is there any consesus on whether 4:3 or 16 is better, playing on 1080p 24" should i go for 720p, or is that too small and I should aim for 800-900 height?
How is playing in a window meant to help with tunnel vision?
Personally I have been playing on 1366x768 for years but the main reason was so I could play on the same resolution everywhere. Don't think it helps much for that shit.
On October 26 2015 22:18 AlterKot wrote: So I've been thinking about playing in a window since my "mechanics" are ok but I definitely could use help with tunnel-visioning. Is there any consesus on whether 4:3 or 16 is better, playing on 1080p 24" should i go for 720p, or is that too small and I should aim for 800-900 height?
On October 26 2015 23:44 killerdog wrote: I remember someone saying the koreans all played windowed, and had a notepad doc with timings on the screen beside the game.
Only benefit i can think of of going windowed unless your monitor is like 28''+
is this allowed in competitive or is this just like a soloq thing? Genuinely curious not trying to dispute you
I remember people saying that Madlife was able to time everyone's summoners and skill cooldowns and that was one of the big reasons he was considered a god, and I assumed Madlife did this without documentation in tournament games
On October 26 2015 23:44 killerdog wrote: I remember someone saying the koreans all played windowed, and had a notepad doc with timings on the screen beside the game.
Only benefit i can think of of going windowed unless your monitor is like 28''+
Not everyone does, Faker plays full screen I'm pretty sure.
On October 26 2015 23:44 killerdog wrote: I remember someone saying the koreans all played windowed, and had a notepad doc with timings on the screen beside the game.
Only benefit i can think of of going windowed unless your monitor is like 28''+
Not everyone does, Faker plays full screen I'm pretty sure.
Oh, not saying they all do. Just that i heard a few were doing it on some talk show age ago
On October 27 2015 00:56 Sufficiency wrote: The point of playing in windowed is that you see more in your field of vision - but it is also more demanding on your mouse accuracy.
I think the only LoL I can think of who plays in windowed mode is piglet. It is unclear if it actually helps your gameplay.
It's not really more demanding on mouse accuracy I think, you can always adjust mouse speed to be the same for both windows right?
On October 27 2015 00:56 Sufficiency wrote: The point of playing in windowed is that you see more in your field of vision - but it is also more demanding on your mouse accuracy.
I think the only LoL I can think of who plays in windowed mode is piglet. It is unclear if it actually helps your gameplay.
It's not really more demanding on mouse accuracy I think, you can always adjust mouse speed to be the same for both windows right?
On October 27 2015 00:56 Sufficiency wrote: The point of playing in windowed is that you see more in your field of vision - but it is also more demanding on your mouse accuracy.
I think the only LoL I can think of who plays in windowed mode is piglet. It is unclear if it actually helps your gameplay.
It's not really more demanding on mouse accuracy I think, you can always adjust mouse speed to be the same for both windows right?
You go from having maybe an inch range of spots where your thresh hook would hit to half an inch, you definitely have to be more precise.
On October 26 2015 12:13 cLutZ wrote: iCanada I'd still like to see his litany of sources, if they exist.
Also, Ketara/Suff I disagree. They aren't really making great decisions because IMO Riot has a great deal of groupthink. Its not just in the tribunal stuff (where I would say they need to be much more targeted, and give better notice to what they are targeting), it happens with champion releases/reworks, the LCS format, and how they generally get very defensive on Ask.fm, twitter, reddit, etc. It appears to me that often they have never heard these criticisms until after the patch/announcement goes live. They are a big company (personnel wise) but it appears that each department needs an outside voice that is actually listened to. I have a friend who is a Sr. Dev at NCSoft and he would be perfect for shaking up Riot in a positive way, but he tells me their hiring process actually perpetuates this situation.
Maybe. But honestly all teams have this problem more or less and it's not the most crucial problem Riot has right now.
Going back to the PR training part, let's look at this askfm post by Lyte for a moment:
Someone asked Lyte what happened to the 4v5 compensation system Lyte promised from ~1 year ago.
Lyte basically said the following:
1. 4v5 compensation is no longer being developed. 2. Here are some totally unrelated stuff that we did develop to distract you! 3. 4v5 happens rarely, so we decided to do "some other more important stuff" instead.
The third point is interesting because I have done an analysis on this too and I basically agree with his statement. So as far as the statement itself is concerned I believe he is speaking the truth - 4v5, objectively, is not the biggest issue with the game right now. The problem is that you should NEVER say to the customers (the players) matter-of-fact-ly that the customers' concerns are "not important". It's mind-bogglingly bad PR.
I think in this instance, Lyte spoke extremely poorly. I don't think the problem here is with groupthink; the problem here is his lack of "business mindset" and - sorry this sounds harsh - empathy. I really think he should stop using his askfm.
You may argue that I am basically saying the same thing on my analysis, but I do not work for Riot and I am (generally speaking) a nobody, so it's not comparable. Interestingly, every time my analysis gets mentioned (either by me or posted by someone else) there are a lot of very emotionally charged responses - because 4v5 sucks and it is a problem. This is something which I didn't grasp really well when I originally wrote the analysis myself. I, too, lacked empathy approaching this issue and could have phrased certain things better.
if someone afk's at the 10 or 12 minute mark, I'd count that as a 4v5 too, and I've had that happen in definitely >2-3% of my games in the last month or two.
People getting mad because someone said something, or did something, or whatever then just abandoning an even/winning game.
I've started saying "kiddie must have skipped his nap and now he's taking his ball and going home" when people quit mid game I've fpund quite offer if I ignore or mute anything they say after I say that they are often shamed back into playing. Unless some other child is inet fighting with them over what ever nothing that happens and caused the rage over a perceived mistake in a video game.
On October 26 2015 12:13 cLutZ wrote: iCanada I'd still like to see his litany of sources, if they exist.
Also, Ketara/Suff I disagree. They aren't really making great decisions because IMO Riot has a great deal of groupthink. Its not just in the tribunal stuff (where I would say they need to be much more targeted, and give better notice to what they are targeting), it happens with champion releases/reworks, the LCS format, and how they generally get very defensive on Ask.fm, twitter, reddit, etc. It appears to me that often they have never heard these criticisms until after the patch/announcement goes live. They are a big company (personnel wise) but it appears that each department needs an outside voice that is actually listened to. I have a friend who is a Sr. Dev at NCSoft and he would be perfect for shaking up Riot in a positive way, but he tells me their hiring process actually perpetuates this situation.
Maybe. But honestly all teams have this problem more or less and it's not the most crucial problem Riot has right now.
Going back to the PR training part, let's look at this askfm post by Lyte for a moment:
Someone asked Lyte what happened to the 4v5 compensation system Lyte promised from ~1 year ago.
Lyte basically said the following:
1. 4v5 compensation is no longer being developed. 2. Here are some totally unrelated stuff that we did develop to distract you! 3. 4v5 happens rarely, so we decided to do "some other more important stuff" instead.
The third point is interesting because I have done an analysis on this too and I basically agree with his statement. So as far as the statement itself is concerned I believe he is speaking the truth - 4v5, objectively, is not the biggest issue with the game right now. The problem is that you should NEVER say to the customers (the players) matter-of-fact-ly that the customers' concerns are "not important". It's mind-bogglingly bad PR.
I think in this instance, Lyte spoke extremely poorly. I don't think the problem here is with groupthink; the problem here is his lack of "business mindset" and - sorry this sounds harsh - empathy. I really think he should stop using his askfm.
You may argue that I am basically saying the same thing on my analysis, but I do not work for Riot and I am (generally speaking) a nobody, so it's not comparable. Interestingly, every time my analysis gets mentioned (either by me or posted by someone else) there are a lot of very emotionally charged responses - because 4v5 sucks and it is a problem. This is something which I didn't grasp really well when I originally wrote the analysis myself. I, too, lacked empathy approaching this issue and could have phrased certain things better.
if someone afk's at the 10 or 12 minute mark, I'd count that as a 4v5 too, and I've had that happen in definitely >2-3% of my games in the last month or two.
People getting mad because someone said something, or did something, or whatever then just abandoning an even/winning game.
I've started saying "kiddie must have skipped his nap and now he's taking his ball and going home" when people quit mid game I've fpund quite offer if I ignore or mute anything they say after I say that they are often shamed back into playing. Unless some other child is inet fighting with them over what ever nothing that happens and caused the rage over a perceived mistake in a video game.
How very toxic of you.
Also, Suff, I think your thought that Lyte should get a media ban from Riot is more right every post he makes.
Comparing LOL to a workplace? You do know the most analogous workplaces (sports locker rooms) would make your system explode, right Lyte?
Unless you're the big guy who could beat the one you called a faggot. Sadly LoL doesn't benefit people who were born big and gives everyone this useless mute button instead
Regardless of "how bad" it was, Lyte really needs to lay off his askfm. It has spawned several controversies so far because he either "misspoke" or straight up said some very PR unfriendly things.
On a basic level, I get it: Riot wants to have deeper, more accessible communication to the players. But IMO this approach is failing because you can't really expect people like Lyte (and to a lesser extent, Ghostcrawler) to speak on behalf of the entire company and do a good job at it.
Lyte has his brilliance, now get him to work on things he should be working on instead of wasting his time on social media.
Definitely having one of those "wtf is everyone else smoking" moments. Lyte is right on with that post 100%, and I feel like you could only disagree with him if you're mad that you're banned or something. I mean for fuck's sake, even Reddit is uniformly supporting Lyte for once, and the thread was even posted during EUW toxicity hour.
I also think it's funny that clutz tries to compare it to a sports locker room, because that pretty much shows that he's never actually been in a sports locker room for one second as a member of a real sports team. It was a huge NFL controversy when Ryan Tannehill said "Enjoy your practice squad paychecks". Imagine if he had said the same shit that you'd need to say to get reported in League, then walked off the field mid-game and refused to play. Oh wait, Percy Harvin did that, and got kicked off the team right after. See also Rich Incognito:
According to Schefter, the final straw for the Dolphins was a highly graphic voicemail Incognito left in April 2013, in which Incognito called Martin a "half-nigger piece of shit," threatened to slap Martin's mother across the face and even uttered a death threat against Martin. Until then, the Dolphins had publicly maintained the charges against Incognito were pure speculation. Schefter said that as late as the afternoon of November 3, the Dolphins didn't even know the voicemail existed. Within hours of hearing the tape, Schefter said, the Dolphins had suspended Incognito. The next day, a Dolphins source told The Miami Herald that Incognito will never play another down for the Dolphins again, and that the team intends to cut ties with him at the earliest opportunity.
There really is no real-world environment where people get to be such assholes to each other like they are in video games, and get away with it. Not a single one. It's just always been accepted that gaming communities were shitholes (think Xbox Live). But Riot is the first ever gaming company to my knowledge to ever actually do something about this in a systematic way, and the first mover is always going to meet resistance.
The best part about all of this is that Lyte is actively hurting Riot's bottom line. Defending, supporting, and funding Lyte amounts to banning many of your biggest customers. They stand up for Lyte, probably the single-most-hated Riot employee, even when getting rid of him would make tons of players happy and earn Riot (in the short term) a lot more money. That shows just how important Riot believes developing their community is.
On October 26 2015 12:13 cLutZ wrote: iCanada I'd still like to see his litany of sources, if they exist.
Also, Ketara/Suff I disagree. They aren't really making great decisions because IMO Riot has a great deal of groupthink. Its not just in the tribunal stuff (where I would say they need to be much more targeted, and give better notice to what they are targeting), it happens with champion releases/reworks, the LCS format, and how they generally get very defensive on Ask.fm, twitter, reddit, etc. It appears to me that often they have never heard these criticisms until after the patch/announcement goes live. They are a big company (personnel wise) but it appears that each department needs an outside voice that is actually listened to. I have a friend who is a Sr. Dev at NCSoft and he would be perfect for shaking up Riot in a positive way, but he tells me their hiring process actually perpetuates this situation.
Maybe. But honestly all teams have this problem more or less and it's not the most crucial problem Riot has right now.
Going back to the PR training part, let's look at this askfm post by Lyte for a moment:
Someone asked Lyte what happened to the 4v5 compensation system Lyte promised from ~1 year ago.
Lyte basically said the following:
1. 4v5 compensation is no longer being developed. 2. Here are some totally unrelated stuff that we did develop to distract you! 3. 4v5 happens rarely, so we decided to do "some other more important stuff" instead.
The third point is interesting because I have done an analysis on this too and I basically agree with his statement. So as far as the statement itself is concerned I believe he is speaking the truth - 4v5, objectively, is not the biggest issue with the game right now. The problem is that you should NEVER say to the customers (the players) matter-of-fact-ly that the customers' concerns are "not important". It's mind-bogglingly bad PR.
I think in this instance, Lyte spoke extremely poorly. I don't think the problem here is with groupthink; the problem here is his lack of "business mindset" and - sorry this sounds harsh - empathy. I really think he should stop using his askfm.
You may argue that I am basically saying the same thing on my analysis, but I do not work for Riot and I am (generally speaking) a nobody, so it's not comparable. Interestingly, every time my analysis gets mentioned (either by me or posted by someone else) there are a lot of very emotionally charged responses - because 4v5 sucks and it is a problem. This is something which I didn't grasp really well when I originally wrote the analysis myself. I, too, lacked empathy approaching this issue and could have phrased certain things better.
if someone afk's at the 10 or 12 minute mark, I'd count that as a 4v5 too, and I've had that happen in definitely >2-3% of my games in the last month or two.
People getting mad because someone said something, or did something, or whatever then just abandoning an even/winning game.
I've started saying "kiddie must have skipped his nap and now he's taking his ball and going home" when people quit mid game I've fpund quite offer if I ignore or mute anything they say after I say that they are often shamed back into playing. Unless some other child is inet fighting with them over what ever nothing that happens and caused the rage over a perceived mistake in a video game.
How very toxic of you.
Also, Suff, I think your thought that Lyte should get a media ban from Riot is more right every post he makes.
Comparing LOL to a workplace? You do know the most analogous workplaces (sports locker rooms) would make your system explode, right Lyte?
I actually thought his post was completely reasonable.
The only part of it that might be a little insensitive is comparing playing a game to work. When we talk about pro players being toxic its a legitimate example. When we talk about casual players being toxic, better examples could have been used.
But the message is there and is totally accurate. All they are trying to do is get people to behave online the way they are expected to in real life. That is understandable, admirable, and applaudable.
The "sports locker rooms" analogy is an old one and reeks of bullshit. Even if it were true (debatable), its not the standard you want to be held to. Nobody thinks that the professional sports industry isn't toxic in this regard, and in recent years there have been huge public protests and boycotts to stop the exact kind of behavior you're describing.
It's like saying "well that guy gets away with calling people faggots I should too" when he actually didn't get away with it and nobody thinks its okay for either of you to be doing.
If by some misguided reasoning you do think it's okay, its time for your wakeup call. Nobody else does and eventually you will be forced to change your behavior.
@GI I disagree with your assertion in degree only. Yelling at teammates when they underperform is part of being a teammate. And those two examples you made are actually closer to the feeder/afker than the flamer (Usually a Brady/Ray Lewis or other team leader does that, and in your face). These are reasons why i think they need to tell us what the line is (also so we can criticize that line honestly) and. Imo its too low. Also when did /r/lol consensus become a good thing? I read the tip comments and they were all just bloodthirsty kids, honestly I'd rather be in a game with flamers.
@Kr Its not like pickup, because trolls get thrown out, and shitty players. In fact, this is why the entire concept of online toxicity/ relating it to talk life situations is a total farce: People complain that the language is due to the anonymity, but it should be less painful for that same reason, and its fundamentally caused because you can't confront someone in any other way than words, and if they ignore reasonable words sometimes people get salty.
@Ket I don't flame, I don't need to reevaluate, but IMO, I think the language-crusaders have very much more mental problems than flamers, in aggregate. It is a totalitarian mindset that I just don't like spreading, even if Riot is totally within thier rights to enforce it in thier own sphere.
I think the issue with your general flamer is that they don't realize that they are lowering there own chance of winning. And that guy they feel they really need to "teach a lesson" too or win a fight or whatever, that unless they are high diamond they will likely never play with again. And there-for are only fucking themselves. Unless it's truely a one off where they go off once every 200 games.
The other thing is way more people are passive aggressive and do shit like "why" when really they don't give a fuck why, what they mean is "that was a bad choice don't do that again" but they are too pussy to be direct. However, the other people takes the why worse then direct comment and a little bitch fest starts.
As a guy who has gone from low silver to low plat I can tell you that the toxicity does go down but is dar from gone. The big thing I notice is the higher I get the longer in the game it takes for the fights to start. In lower levels it will be like 5-2 and 2-3 people will already be typing gg and calling others bronze, when any logical person knows both teams are going to throw like 10 times before this game is over. Higher tehy usually wait till the game is much farther out of reach to have wussy inet fites.
On October 27 2015 13:19 cLutZ wrote: @GI I disagree with your assertion in degree only. Yelling at teammates when they underperform is part of being a teammate. And those two examples you made are actually closer to the feeder/afker than the flamer (Usually a Brady/Ray Lewis or other team leader does that, and in your face). These are reasons why i think they need to tell us what the line is (also so we can criticize that line honestly) and. Imo its too low. Also when did /r/lol consensus become a good thing? I read the tip comments and they were all just bloodthirsty kids, honestly I'd rather be in a game with flamers.
@Kr Its not like pickup, because trolls get thrown out, and shitty players. In fact, this is why the entire concept of online toxicity/ relating it to talk life situations is a total farce: People complain that the language is due to the anonymity, but it should be less painful for that same reason, and its fundamentally caused because you can't confront someone in any other way than words, and if they ignore reasonable words sometimes people get salty.
@Ket I don't flame, I don't need to reevaluate, but IMO, I think the language-crusaders have very much more mental problems than flamers, in aggregate. It is a totalitarian mindset that I just don't like spreading, even if Riot is totally within thier rights to enforce it in thier own sphere.
If its totalitarian then real life is totalitarian. Because real life works this way.
I think the idea that people who don't want toxicity in their games are therefore have more mental problems than people who want to be toxic is ridiculous. Neither standpoint shows any indication that people have such problems.
Are you trying to say that I'm mentally disabled because I don't want to be called a faggot? That's ridiculous.
On October 27 2015 13:19 cLutZ wrote: @GI I disagree with your assertion in degree only. Yelling at teammates when they underperform is part of being a teammate. And those two examples you made are actually closer to the feeder/afker than the flamer (Usually a Brady/Ray Lewis or other team leader does that, and in your face). These are reasons why i think they need to tell us what the line is (also so we can criticize that line honestly) and. Imo its too low. Also when did /r/lol consensus become a good thing? I read the tip comments and they were all just bloodthirsty kids, honestly I'd rather be in a game with flamers.
@Kr Its not like pickup, because trolls get thrown out, and shitty players. In fact, this is why the entire concept of online toxicity/ relating it to talk life situations is a total farce: People complain that the language is due to the anonymity, but it should be less painful for that same reason, and its fundamentally caused because you can't confront someone in any other way than words, and if they ignore reasonable words sometimes people get salty.
@Ket I don't flame, I don't need to reevaluate, but IMO, I think the language-crusaders have very much more mental problems than flamers, in aggregate. It is a totalitarian mindset that I just don't like spreading, even if Riot is totally within thier rights to enforce it in thier own sphere.
If its totalitarian then real life is totalitarian. Because real life works this way.
I think the idea that people who don't want toxicity in their games are therefore have more mental problems than people who want to be toxic is ridiculous. Neither standpoint shows any indication that people have such problems.
Are you trying to say that I'm mentally disabled because I don't want to be called a faggot? That's ridiculous.
Not that you don't want to be called a fag, that you feel it affects you negatively enough to think there should be a non-equivalent response. What really the cause of internet toxicity, is the same reason that people always compare it to playing sports: it requires a competitive mindset. In sports through, you channel the frustration that comes with losing (inherent to the state of mind) into physical channels as well and it gives most players a release. I don't play, for instance, unless I have worked out or gone for a walk because typing cusses is most certainly not a release for me, but I do see how it could be for someone, so I have more sympathy for that emotion, because its inherent to the game, and I don't want a teammate (even virtual) who isn't upset by losing.
Can someone explain to me why Rek'Sai is such a high priority pick, even in soloQ? His kit doesn't seem that strong, and he also kinda seems to be lacking engage.
On October 27 2015 17:42 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote: Can someone explain to me why Rek'Sai is such a high priority pick, even in soloQ? His kit doesn't seem that strong, and he also kinda seems to be lacking engage.
On October 27 2015 13:19 cLutZ wrote: @GI I disagree with your assertion in degree only. Yelling at teammates when they underperform is part of being a teammate. And those two examples you made are actually closer to the feeder/afker than the flamer (Usually a Brady/Ray Lewis or other team leader does that, and in your face). These are reasons why i think they need to tell us what the line is (also so we can criticize that line honestly) and. Imo its too low. Also when did /r/lol consensus become a good thing? I read the tip comments and they were all just bloodthirsty kids, honestly I'd rather be in a game with flamers.
@Kr Its not like pickup, because trolls get thrown out, and shitty players. In fact, this is why the entire concept of online toxicity/ relating it to talk life situations is a total farce: People complain that the language is due to the anonymity, but it should be less painful for that same reason, and its fundamentally caused because you can't confront someone in any other way than words, and if they ignore reasonable words sometimes people get salty.
@Ket I don't flame, I don't need to reevaluate, but IMO, I think the language-crusaders have very much more mental problems than flamers, in aggregate. It is a totalitarian mindset that I just don't like spreading, even if Riot is totally within thier rights to enforce it in thier own sphere.
If its totalitarian then real life is totalitarian. Because real life works this way.
I think the idea that people who don't want toxicity in their games are therefore have more mental problems than people who want to be toxic is ridiculous. Neither standpoint shows any indication that people have such problems.
Are you trying to say that I'm mentally disabled because I don't want to be called a faggot? That's ridiculous.
Not that you don't want to be called a fag, that you feel it affects you negatively enough to think there should be a non-equivalent response. What really the cause of internet toxicity, is the same reason that people always compare it to playing sports: it requires a competitive mindset. In sports through, you channel the frustration that comes with losing (inherent to the state of mind) into physical channels as well and it gives most players a release. I don't play, for instance, unless I have worked out or gone for a walk because typing cusses is most certainly not a release for me, but I do see how it could be for someone, so I have more sympathy for that emotion, because its inherent to the game, and I don't want a teammate (even virtual) who isn't upset by losing.
Okay first off.
Thinking that banning a person for calling people fags is "non equivalent" is weird. That's literally just how human interaction works. When somebody insults you you stop interacting with them.
All the ban is doing is making it possible to treat the online situation the same way you treat the IRL situation.
Second off, thinking that people get up in arms about this because being called a fag affects them negatively is misguided.
A lot of people (myself included) don't care about being called names like that, and are perfectly comfortable in that sort of environment. Just hang out with us on teamspeak, you'll know how we like to behave in regards to inappropriate language.
We're not on a witch hunt about this because it affects us, we are on a witch hunt because we know it affects other people, and we believe that those other people should be able to play the game without being subjected to that kind of abuse.
Mfw people think playing a fucking game on the internet is the same as irl interaction at an actual workplace.
I know a lot of people who have been chat restricted from the day it was added in league till that patch that wiped restricts. Irl they would never say shit like that but in game it is basically "hope your family gets cancer" and all those fun stuff.
On October 27 2015 21:33 nafta wrote: Mfw people think playing a fucking game on the internet is the same as irl interaction at an actual workplace.
I know a lot of people who have been chat restricted from the day it was added in league till that patch that wiped restricts. Irl they would never say shit like that but in game it is basically "hope your family gets cancer" and all those fun stuff.
Actually I pretty much never see phrases like "kill yourself" or "get cancer", at my elo its mostly calling someone bad or boosted.
Also nah wheelking I just thought ketaras post was differently abled.
As for reksai, she has great ganks due to gap closer, dash through a wall, a knockup and decent burst as well as skillshot to finish escaping people. Also great teamfighting due to afromentioned knockup and single target damage while doing just as much in aoe. Also more importantly than early game clear, her tunnels, ult and sustain allow her to simply do more than opposing jungler, staying even in farm while providing more lane pressure or vice versa. Basically shes the same well-rounded versatile jungler that lee, elise, kha and jarvan were in s4.
On October 27 2015 17:42 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote: Can someone explain to me why Rek'Sai is such a high priority pick, even in soloQ? His kit doesn't seem that strong, and he also kinda seems to be lacking engage.
good early ganks, super safe in jungle, counters high pressure junglers like shaco or lee, good sustain+ manaless(for me its actually huge how much more annoying is to play mana based jungler when manaless options are in game), has free tp, decent late game what more do u need lol
On October 28 2015 00:26 Sufficiency wrote: I don't think Reksai is good in solo queue at all. I don't think I've seen one for ages. There are so many better choices for solo queue jungle...
Alright, name some junglers then. The ones I can think off are Elise, Tahm Kench and a well played Lee Sin. That's not many, as you claim.
Edit: Also Sufficiency the William Turton in the list is a different William Turton than the one who wrote for DailyDot. Nvm apparently not? Although I could have sworn the guys was older than that, I remember reading about it. Guess I was wrong.
On October 28 2015 00:26 Sufficiency wrote: I don't think Reksai is good in solo queue at all. I don't think I've seen one for ages. There are so many better choices for solo queue jungle...
Alright, name some junglers then. The ones I can think off are Elise and a well played Lee Sin. That's not many, as you claim.
Edit: Also Sufficiency the William Turton in the list is a different William Turton than the one who wrote for DailyDot.
I actually think Lee Sin, even when well played is a mediocre solo queue jungler compared to other well played junglers. He falls off so hard and is incredibly reliant on getting his laners ahead. This works to a certain extent in competitive but in soloqueue you can't always rely on your teammates to carry the rest of the game if you don't snowball the fuck out of the game.
Not surprised even players with 125+ Lee games don't break 50% win rate.
But yes I do agree that there aren't THAT many better soloqueue junglers than reksai.
Also I'm fairly sure they are the same from a quick look at some articles about him and his Linked In page. Also his twitter.
Yeah I was wrong. I personally don't think Lee falls off as hard as everybody always claims, if you play him well, but I agree that an average Lee is not something I'd want on my soloq teams. A lot of junglers have their own strong and weak points, but to claim that there are many junglers better than Reksai in soloq is quite a stretch.
Nocturne falls off even harder than Lee, he's constrained by a long cd ult (well, not that it stops Vi who's got the same cd at level 1), has a presence somewhat limited by his mana (very small pool, constant Q usage, E costs a bunch), and his first clear isn't that healthy so it's not like he's not very good at fighting the other jungler unless he plans around invading himself. If we're talking about the need to snowball your laners there's an even bigger case against Nocturne I'd say.
On October 28 2015 02:07 Slusher wrote: Gragas is better than all 5 of those if you are good enough not to save enemy lives with his ult ( which isn't that hard)
Gragas is a terrible solo queue jungler. His popularity and his win rate reflects this, but even a simple introspection shows that he is way too nerfed and his R is too difficult to use in solo queue.
Nocturne's R seems lackluster on paper, but any form of reliable engage is highly valued in solo queue.
On October 28 2015 02:07 Slusher wrote: Gragas is better than all 5 of those if you are good enough not to save enemy lives with his ult ( which isn't that hard)
Gragas is a terrible solo queue jungler. His popularity and his win rate reflects this, but even a simple introspection shows that he is way too nerfed and his R is too difficult to use in solo queue.
Nocturne's R seems lackluster on paper, but any form of reliable engage is highly valued in solo queue.
Global vision deny is not to be trifled with either, particularly with so many TPs in most games. Although that is just as much a competitive reason. Generally, though, I think he's always been pretty good later on because the long ult CD becomes less an issue, not more.
On October 28 2015 02:07 Slusher wrote: Gragas is better than all 5 of those if you are good enough not to save enemy lives with his ult ( which isn't that hard)
Gragas is a terrible solo queue jungler. His popularity and his win rate reflects this, but even a simple introspection shows that he is way too nerfed and his R is too difficult to use in solo queue.
Nocturne's R seems lackluster on paper, but any form of reliable engage is highly valued in solo queue.
the winrate on champion.gg is a bit misleading though.
gragas has one of the lowest playerbase average games played so its no surprise a ton of unskilled gragas players are lowering the winrate. if you compare players with 125+ games on both it is virtually the same (54%).
unless you're going to bring up a separate argument of easier champ vs harder champ which needs a consensus of whether it should be taken into account for ranking 'champs good for soloqueue'.
Low average number of games played because everyone with some remotely good sense of the game can tell there are way better junglers out there.
Also, keep in mind Gragas WAS popular and lots of people played him (esp. on patch 5.5-5.6). He at the state he is in right now is due to multitudes of nerfs on him due his strength in competitive. This has unintended consequences in solo queue.
Then there is the issue of transferrable skills. It's not the case that every champion is in its own world - the skill of a player is transferred from champion to champion due to shared playstyle and patterns. You can ask Scip to play a totally unfamiliar jungler (to him) and still crush most of us here. Since we are talking about Gragas (instead of some truly niche jungler like Fiddle, Yi, Kindred), you can't really expect to use inexperience as an excuse.
just look at it objectively, Gragas still has everything you could want in a character. innate sustain, innate % damage reduction, % health damage(over nerfed but it's there), a ranged aoe slow, a knock up and a displacement, lvl2 gank and late game on the same hero.
On October 28 2015 02:07 Slusher wrote: Gragas is better than all 5 of those if you are good enough not to save enemy lives with his ult ( which isn't that hard)
Gragas is a terrible solo queue jungler. His popularity and his win rate reflects this, but even a simple introspection shows that he is way too nerfed and his R is too difficult to use in solo queue.
Nocturne's R seems lackluster on paper, but any form of reliable engage is highly valued in solo queue.
the winrate on champion.gg is a bit misleading though.
gragas has one of the lowest playerbase average games played so its no surprise a ton of unskilled gragas players are lowering the winrate. if you compare players with 125+ games on both it is virtually the same (54%).
unless you're going to bring up a separate argument of easier champ vs harder champ which needs a consensus of whether it should be taken into account for ranking 'champs good for soloqueue'.
Low average number of games played because everyone with some remotely good sense of the game can tell there are way better junglers out there.
Also, keep in mind Gragas WAS popular and lots of people played him (esp. on patch 5.5-5.6). He at the state he is in right now is due to multitudes of nerfs on him due his strength in competitive. This has unintended consequences in solo queue.
Then there is the issue of transferrable skills. It's not the case that every champion is in its own world - the skill of a player is transferred from champion to champion due to shared playstyle and patterns. You can ask Scip to play a totally unfamiliar jungler (to him) and still crush most of us here. Since we are talking about Gragas (instead of some truly niche jungler like Fiddle, Yi, Kindred), you can't really expect to use inexperience as an excuse.
Where does that assumption come from? The counterpoint exists in Lee Sin right there who has THE highest average games played per person. Unless you're going to continue that assumption and say Lee Sin is the best jungler in the game right now and that anyone with remotely good sense of the game can tell that Lee Sin is the best jungler and that is why he has the highest average games played per person (which is a dumb assumption as you can see).
Popularity of previous patches don't affect his numbers right now. Unless your point was that people are still playing him because he was popular, which isn't a relevant point since we don't care about how many trash players are playing. We care more about well the actual good players are playing him.
? It's not an excuse, it's common sense. More people with less than a dozen games on a champion play the champion, winrate drops. It's not rocket science. No matter how easy the champion is or isn't.
I think you are just arguing with me for the sake of disagreeing with me at this point. What about the junglers which has similar avg games played to Gragas?
The problem with lee is you have to be good for him to be useful. Same with gragas. That doesn't mean they are bad in le solo but most players are dogshit.
On October 28 2015 02:34 Slusher wrote: just look at it objectively, Gragas still has everything you could want in a character. innate sustain, innate % damage reduction, % health damage(over nerfed but it's there), a ranged aoe slow, a knock up and a displacement, lvl2 gank and late game on the same hero.
Gragas has it all.
This is kind of like when Monte claimed that Cinderhulk would be strong so long as it had health multiplicative scaling - which is clearly false because as you lower the scaling it will eventually go into a state where it is balanced. Similarly, while it is true that Gragas has innate sustain, damage reduction, ranged slow, %health damage, etc. it's the amount of these properties that is important, not the simple fact that they exist on his kit.
On October 28 2015 02:58 nafta wrote: The problem with lee is you have to be good for him to be useful. Same with gragas. That doesn't mean they are bad in le solo but most players are dogshit.
Elise by far best jungler overall though.
The problem is that if you try to adjust for these factors you still see champions like Elise, etc outperforming Gragas.
I don't think Elise is bad. But to say Gragas is good is problematic.
On October 28 2015 02:58 nafta wrote: The problem with lee is you have to be good for him to be useful. Same with gragas. That doesn't mean they are bad in le solo but most players are dogshit.
Elise by far best jungler overall though.
The problem is that if you try to adjust for these factors you still see champions like Elise, etc outperforming Gragas.
I don't think Elise is bad. But to say Gragas is good is problematic.
I have not looked at any stats for my statements so I wouldn't know but that is just the truth. If your definition of good is "champion that is suitable for anyone to pickup and carry with" I would agree but if you are using the actual definition of "this champion is stronger than his peers when used properly" then you have no clue what you are talking about.
I mean I like where Sufficiency is coming from in the sense that I think there are a lot of really good heroes for solo that are criminally underplayed because they are garbage in competitive (or vice versa).
On October 28 2015 02:58 nafta wrote: The problem with lee is you have to be good for him to be useful. Same with gragas. That doesn't mean they are bad in le solo but most players are dogshit.
Elise by far best jungler overall though.
The problem is that if you try to adjust for these factors you still see champions like Elise, etc outperforming Gragas.
I don't think Elise is bad. But to say Gragas is good is problematic.
If you don't think Gragas is good, that's fine. That's your opinion and could be true. But you can't just quote his winrate and use it to justify it, then do a poor job of arguing when someone points out why that statistic is misleading and not at all indicative of why Gragas is good or bad. Then claim that that person is arguing with you for the sake of it instead of you know, admitting you didn't justify your opinion properly.
Come on man.
I didn't even bring up champion.gg; you did. I explicitly said to put win rate and popularity aside yet you went into it anyway.
On October 28 2015 02:58 nafta wrote: The problem with lee is you have to be good for him to be useful. Same with gragas. That doesn't mean they are bad in le solo but most players are dogshit.
Elise by far best jungler overall though.
The problem is that if you try to adjust for these factors you still see champions like Elise, etc outperforming Gragas.
I don't think Elise is bad. But to say Gragas is good is problematic.
If you don't think Gragas is good, that's fine. That's your opinion and could be true. But you can't just quote his winrate and use it to justify it, then do a poor job of arguing when someone points out why that statistic is misleading and not at all indicative of why Gragas is good or bad. Then claim that that person is arguing with you for the sake of it instead of you know, admitting you didn't justify your opinion properly.
Come on man.
I didn't even bring up champion.gg; you did. I explicitly said to put win rate and popularity aside yet you went into it anyway.
On October 28 2015 02:07 Slusher wrote: Gragas is better than all 5 of those if you are good enough not to save enemy lives with his ult ( which isn't that hard)
Gragas is a terrible solo queue jungler. His popularity and his win rate reflects this
I also don't see any quote within the last 2 pages with you explicitly saying put win rate and popularity aside.
What are you even saying?
You brought up winrate and popularity and I commented on why his win rate and popularity are misleading statistics and not at all reflective of why he is or isn't terrible.
Can you please go back and quote my ENTIRE PARAGRAPH instead of picking out a single sentence without context?
Edit: You didn't even quote a sentence. You quoted HALF OF MY SENTENCE.
On October 28 2015 03:32 Ketara wrote: No, because I don't know how to play him.
I'd like to learn how, some day.
Would you still make a recommendation to anyone to learn to play him, even though you are aware deep inside that there are tons of better choices out there?
Edit: I am not insulting you. I am stating your rank because I believe Diamond V is a respectable rank and it demonstrates that you have good understanding of the game. I have no idea why you think I am insulting you.
I am actually not aware deep inside that there are tons of better choices, dont speak for me k. And yes, I'd absolutely recommend that people learn to play gragas.
Also, isn't literally everyone in this conversation arguing against you ranked as high or higher than me lol
Gragas is sweet in soloq though, you can dictate when fights take place by just dumping your ult. Like you'll need some practice but even when I fuck up all my other skills I just ult their tanks or whoever off of my jinx and we win the cause everyone just zergs the AD anyways. He's got good clear, good sustain, you build tanky anyways so you can get away with getting caught to some extent, and he's pretty useful throughout the game.
On October 28 2015 03:37 Ketara wrote: I am actually not aware deep inside that there are tons of better choices, dont speak for me k. And yes, I'd absolutely recommend that people learn to play gragas.
Yet you don't know how to play him nor do you plan to learn to play him.
Usually this happens because you think:
1. There are better choices out there. 2. Your current pool is good enough (despite being worse than Gragas), so it is not worth your time to play him. 3. He is hard to play, thus not worth your time.
I don't know how to play gragas because when I learn to play a champion I spam probably 200+ games on them.
The only jungler that I'm confident in saying I know how to play is sejuani.
That doesn't mean I haven't played against good gragas players and seen what he's capable of, or seen what he's capable of in pro games.
If I wanted to learn a new jungle champion and wanted to pick the champion who was the strongest based on my playstyle (I like tank junglers) gragas would be my number 1 choice.
I think all of them are miles ahead of Reksai right now.
Could you give some basis for this list rather then stating it as gospel then disagreeing with anything anyone else says?
Skarners been bad for like 5 patches now, vi hasn't been very good for like half a season. Udyr is a super niche pick, but i'd hardly say he's "good for soloq." He's just a split pusher that some one tricks (get it? :p) have success with. Nocturne scales worse then lee with a worse early game. Amumu is just super vulnerable to pressure from any of the current meta junglers (elise reksai lee etc.) Only seen one guy do well on him recently and that guy went full ap.
I definitely wouldn't put any of them in my top 3-4, and skarner wouldn't even be in my top 10... What on earth kind of metric did you use for this?
Gragas is really strong in good hands still. He's a super tanky engager who can also peel, has tons of tools to interrupt the mobility of the other fotm champions, and has strong early ganks.
He's just really hard, since you have to be very very precise with your ult and your e, so most people don't bother learning him. He's by no means weak at all though...
If your metric is "i'm in silver and i want a champ i can brainlessly farm then win" then your list might be semi decent, (although not necessarily in that order) but I don't think the majority of people here are, and I don't think that's what people generally refer to when they talk about strong junglers.
On October 28 2015 03:37 Ketara wrote: I am actually not aware deep inside that there are tons of better choices, dont speak for me k. And yes, I'd absolutely recommend that people learn to play gragas.
Yet you don't know how to play him nor do you plan to learn to play him.
Usually this happens because you think:
1. There are better choices out there. 2. Your current pool is good enough (despite being worse than Gragas), so it is not worth your time to play him. 3. He is hard to play, thus not worth your time.
I could be wrong though.
4. he's not a jungle main, and jungle isn't the role where he'd try to consolidate his pool by learning a new champion if he wanted to expand it.
Next time we discuss AD, if I argue against you you'll use the same "arguments" to try and enforce your view despite me having less than 6 of my 300 games played as marksman?
Actually in season 5 like 70% of my total games are jungle.
I'm comfortable mid and jungle and absolute shit tier horrible everywhere else.
Anyway it's a dumb discussion. Gragas is a good champion. I feel like the only way sufficiency can argue otherwise is if he has a different definition of "good" than everybody else.
On October 28 2015 04:18 Ketara wrote: Actually in season 5 like 70% of my total games are jungle.
I'm comfortable mid and jungle and absolute shit tier horrible everywhere else.
Anyway it's a dumb discussion. Gragas is a good champion. I feel like the only way sufficiency can argue otherwise is if he has a different definition of "good" than everybody else.
I just think good is relative. In a game where more than 20 champions can reasonably be played as jungler, it's mind boggling why we are so fixated on this particular champion which got a nerf almost every patch since 5.5.
Worse, it is very concerning to me as to why people would recommend Gragas for other people to learn, fully knowing that he is, minimally, hard to play and hard to master.
On October 28 2015 04:18 Ketara wrote: Actually in season 5 like 70% of my total games are jungle.
I'm comfortable mid and jungle and absolute shit tier horrible everywhere else.
Anyway it's a dumb discussion. Gragas is a good champion. I feel like the only way sufficiency can argue otherwise is if he has a different definition of "good" than everybody else.
I just think good is relative. In a game where more than 20 champions can reasonably be played as jungler, it's mind boggling why we are so fixated on this particular champion which got a nerf almost every patch since 5.5.
Worse, it is very concerning to me as to why people would recommend Gragas for other people to learn, fully knowing that he is, minimally, hard to play and hard to master.
We're not talking about what would be recommended for someone to pick up as a jungler for a gold guy who wants easy elo, in some hypothetical situation which you've concocted for the purposes of your argument.
We're talking about which junglers are strong in soloq if you're good with them. Gragas definitely belongs on that list. We're only "fixated" on him because you managed to start a huge argument about he's apparently trash, which is obviously not true.
I'd say, if you know what you're doing,
reksai gragas kindred lee elise
are probably the best and safest general purpose junglers if you're good on them. Kindred more because nobody else has any idea what she does, so she seems way stronger :p
I think that is consistent with a different definition of good.
I think for most people, a "good" champion means a champion that is strong in comparison to other champions when played skillfully and properly.
There are other champions that are strong because they are easy to play and good champions to pick up as a fall back position for a role that you're not comfortable on.
But just because it's a good champion to learn doesn't mean it's a good champion. It just means they're good enough while simultaneously being easy.
Also what happened to sejuani jungle? Did Elise scare her away? Is gragas just better?
On October 28 2015 04:32 Ketara wrote: I think that is consistent with a different definition of good.
I think for most people, a "good" champion means a champion that is strong in comparison to other champions when played skillfully and properly.
There are other champions that are strong because they are easy to play and good champions to pick up as a fall back position for a role that you're not comfortable on.
But just because it's a good champion to learn doesn't mean it's a good champion. It just means they're good enough while simultaneously being easy.
Also what happened to sejuani jungle? Did Elise scare her away? Is gragas just better?
Nah. I am sure she is just hard to play and hard to master.
Sejuani got nerfed because she was op with cinderhulk, after which she was decent but not op. Then after that they nerfed the armour items and cinderhulk too.
Generally in le solo people prefer stuff that is good at ganking pre 6 and she doesn't really work that well in the current meta. Before cleanse vs her became popular in mid and she loses a lot of her power when people get it.
On October 28 2015 04:41 Ketara wrote: Sejuani is brainless easy to play. I'm not sure if you're being an ass on purpose here, or just clueless.
He's being a total dick here. The real reason is that the W damage nerf really hurt her single target damage, which in turn both nerfed her jungle clear and her fighting power. At the same time, Gragas and Reksai remained very strong, so everybody just switched to them.
On October 28 2015 04:41 Ketara wrote: Sejuani is brainless easy to play. I'm not sure if you're being an ass on purpose here, or just clueless.
When the champion's raw stats aren't good it does make the champion harder to play. If her early ganks are bad, all it takes is a superior player who ganks better.
Don't forget her R only slows 30% if missed.
See what I am getting here? Sorry for being cheeky, but it sounds like I can justify any champion to be "good" based on his perceived difficulty to play. But the problem is that any champion can find success with lots of practice and perseverance from the player - so "good" in this sense becomes a tautology.
On October 28 2015 04:32 Ketara wrote: I think that is consistent with a different definition of good.
I think for most people, a "good" champion means a champion that is strong in comparison to other champions when played skillfully and properly.
There are other champions that are strong because they are easy to play and good champions to pick up as a fall back position for a role that you're not comfortable on.
But just because it's a good champion to learn doesn't mean it's a good champion. It just means they're good enough while simultaneously being easy.
Also what happened to sejuani jungle? Did Elise scare her away? Is gragas just better?
Cinderhulk nerfs ontop of cutting her Ult-Miss slow by two thirds and lowering the top end of her W onhit from 10% to 6% cut out a lot of her strength.
Actually I dont think you need to know what to do with reksai, her kit is braindead and tunnels mean you dont need to be smart about your pathing you can just do whatever. Also she got stronger thanks to new itemisation, titanic is all I ever wanted.
Can anyone explain to me how to play a decent Tahm jungle?
I'm the lowest of low Gold so it doesn't matter if it's good. I just want to be a fish all the time and I ONLY play jungle.
I can't tell if it's just runes/masteries, playstyle, or his optimization that I'm having trouble with (or had trouble with when I was trying to play him more often).
I tried to play Reksai once and was like "this is confusing I'm stupid waaaaaaahhhhhhh"
Same shit happened to me with Lee and Elise.
@Asmo
I want to revive scips jungle challenge so we can figure out a correct clear for Tahm Kench. Please let me live vicariously through you by doing this. I want videos and documentation.
i still like playing sejuani more than gragas i feel her clear speed is good (after first one which is horrendous), she pushes waves easier and doesnt use as much mana, her perma slow + engage ult is a lot easier and more reliable to use than gragas
On October 28 2015 05:02 Ketara wrote: I tried to play Reksai once and was like "this is confusing I'm stupid waaaaaaahhhhhhh"
Same shit happened to me with Lee and Elise.
@Asmo
I want to revive scips jungle challenge so we can figure out a correct clear for Tahm Kench. Please let me live vicariously through you by doing this. I want videos and documentation.
On October 28 2015 05:16 krndandaman wrote: meh some people just find certain champs harder to play.
I for one had a much harder time picking up reksai (I'm still pretty mediocre on her) than gragas which was pretty intuitive for me. I know several people who say reksai is the easiest thing ever and others like me who find her fairly difficult to play well.
edit: as for tahm jungle I recall an xj9 guide many other high elo players referred to to learn jungling him
doesn't seem like the most amazing guide but it's a starting point
I actually prefer guides like that to the super long ones that have tons of pointless text.
Just give runes/masteries, skill order, item build, and a bit of logic behind it. No need for 5 paragraphs on a specific item or an analysis of two items which nobodies built for 3 months anyway :p
Just what you need to go out and start learning the actual mechanics of the champ
On October 28 2015 05:16 krndandaman wrote: meh some people just find certain champs harder to play.
I for one had a much harder time picking up reksai (I'm still pretty mediocre on her) than gragas which was pretty intuitive for me. I know several people who say reksai is the easiest thing ever and others like me who find her fairly difficult to play well.
edit: as for tahm jungle I recall an xj9 guide many other high elo players referred to to learn jungling him
doesn't seem like the most amazing guide but it's a starting point
haha his comment on randuin tbh i feel the same
Randuin's is so terrible right now. The base stats are awful. The 10% less crit damage thing isn't that good at all I don't know why Riot made this item into a piece of garbage. I don't notice the damage reduction or even the attack speed when I buy it. I never buy it THIS ITEM IS TERRIBLE DONT BUY IT.
Once again everyone gets into a stupid argument where we just didn't set our parameters clearly - or at all.
Let's redefine the question this way: rank jungle champions that are the best for these people to main, if their only goal is to gain as much LP as possible after 100 solo queue games with that champion:
1) Chad, who is Challenger and really really good at this game. Before he starts this quest, he will spend 125 games practicing the mechanics of that champion in normals and read every guide out there to optimize his play as much as possible.
2) Gordon, who is Gold and decent at this game. He isn't going to practice the champion beforehand, but he has a decent enough sense of the game overall, and as he plays the champion he'll get better and better at it.
3) Bob, who is Bronze and trash at this game. He isn't going to practice the champion, and he also thinks he's in Elo hell and needs to 1v9 every game. Accordingly he will not identify mistakes in what he's doing, and instead is just going to be basically the same level throughout.
My votes are:
1) For Chad: Elise, Kayle, Shaco. 2) For Gordon: Amumu, Rammus, Diana, Wukong. 3) For Bob: Pantheon, Xin Zhao, Master Yi.
On October 28 2015 05:54 Nos- wrote: just buy juggernaut items and kill them instead :>
the only new juggernaut item i like is deadman's plate, that also reminds me why i dont like playing gragas anymore full tanks dont feel that rewarding anymore (which is fine i hated full tank meta) why bother when i can pick lee or elise build ap and one shot enemy adc
ps. also hate juggernaut buzzword riot is trying to force, its a bruiser
A Juggernaut is a bruiser with really good base stats and damage, but low mobility (most importantly, no dashes or teleports or anything, MS buffs at most) and cc so you're supposed to kite them and they aren't good at range.
That doesn't necessarily fit Xin Zhao because of his spammable dash for example, or Gnar because range and mobility, or Jax (because his base stats aren't that good anymore sadly, everything from his armour to his mana pool to his base AS is bad, only exceptions are his good base AD and "decent" HP pool; the dude who was supposed to be one of the best duelists in the game with farm probably loses to the juggernauts and Fiora, Riven, Zed, along with a bunch of others now). Sejuani isn't supposed to fit because she doesn't have has much damage as them despite rather good base stats, and mobility. Same with a bunch of tanks, who are resilient too, but can have more tools to deal with kiting, means of initiating, and mobility.
On October 28 2015 05:01 AlterKot wrote: Actually I dont think you need to know what to do with reksai, her kit is braindead and tunnels mean you dont need to be smart about your pathing you can just do whatever. Also she got stronger thanks to new itemisation, titanic is all I ever wanted.
Personally this is how i feel about Gragas but this conversation has made me realize I have to step back and aknowlege I've been playing this hero for 3 years.
This is actually a problem with myself I'm trying to correct. I've always struggled to teach because I have a bad habit of taking my intuition for granted.
are they really that great duelists ? im pretty sure garen,skarner would get dumpstered by jax,trynd or yi, btw why olaf,udyr, trundle werent included? If we dig deeper all we get juggernaut is just a bruiser who doesnt have gapcloser but whats the point why not just call them bruisers they use the same items anyway.
Is udyr a tank or a bruiser or a juggernaut or a manbearpig?
In an entirely less stupid (but still stupid) line of conversation.
If I asked people to help me test shit for the season 6 Lux guide, would you be eager to volunteer? Eager to volunteer if I paid you in RP cards at some horrible rate like 10 cents per game, or would you be like "no fuck off Ketara nobody cares about Lux go away"
I'd play Lux anyway, so might as well do some testing for you if you want me to.
Garen doesn't really get dumpstered 1v1 if he gets items, not even by trynd, jax or yi. (From my own experience as Garen) Skarner also used to not get dumpstered but then they halved his numbers :^)
On October 28 2015 05:01 AlterKot wrote: Actually I dont think you need to know what to do with reksai, her kit is braindead and tunnels mean you dont need to be smart about your pathing you can just do whatever. Also she got stronger thanks to new itemisation, titanic is all I ever wanted.
Personally this is how i feel about Gragas but this conversation has made me realize I have to step back and aknowlege I've been playing this hero for 3 years.
This is actually a problem with myself I'm trying to correct. I've always struggled to teach because I have a bad habit of taking my intuition for granted.
You see this problem all the time in traditional sports. Former players that were incredibly talented failing at teaching because they don't understand how to teach what they are trying to get to and just tell their student what to do.
On October 28 2015 05:01 AlterKot wrote: Actually I dont think you need to know what to do with reksai, her kit is braindead and tunnels mean you dont need to be smart about your pathing you can just do whatever. Also she got stronger thanks to new itemisation, titanic is all I ever wanted.
Personally this is how i feel about Gragas but this conversation has made me realize I have to step back and aknowlege I've been playing this hero for 3 years.
This is actually a problem with myself I'm trying to correct. I've always struggled to teach because I have a bad habit of taking my intuition for granted.
On the other hand I'm completely useless with Gragas and have no idea how to path with him so to each his own.
After that I buy upgraded machete + boots and just do whatever, if there's an opportunity to gank then I go for it, if not then I just get a camp and look again. Most of the time gank is just Q + 2 autos and then W, I rarely go for stun for Q (in ganks that is, different case in teamfights and skirmishes).
XJ9 is obviously a much better player than me (in fact he's probably my 2nd favorite jungler) so I'll probably try his guide, but the stuff above has worked for me pretty well.
on a side note i think about buying gragas on my smurf but dont have enough rune pages to make specific ap/as for him, will it make a big difference if i will be using generic ap/mpen page ?
Would you go for defense over offense since you're aiming at being a tanky mofo (who still ends up 2nd damage in the game because yay passive)? Or is it only to facilitate his first and second clear in terms of speed?
On October 28 2015 07:43 Ketara wrote: This conversation is really silly.
What's a tank, guys?
Is udyr a tank or a bruiser or a juggernaut or a manbearpig?
In an entirely less stupid (but still stupid) line of conversation.
If I asked people to help me test shit for the season 6 Lux guide, would you be eager to volunteer? Eager to volunteer if I paid you in RP cards at some horrible rate like 10 cents per game, or would you be like "no fuck off Ketara nobody cares about Lux go away"
Whenever I play mid lane (rarely) I default to Lux so I may be of some use.
Randuin's is so terrible right now. The base stats are awful. The 10% less crit damage thing isn't that good at all I don't know why Riot made this item into a piece of garbage. I don't notice the damage reduction or even the attack speed when I buy it. I never buy it THIS ITEM IS TERRIBLE DONT BUY IT.
We did the math on this in one of the strategy threads a while ago. The crit reduction is worth between 20-50 armor against the enemy AD if they utilize crit(and depending on your current armor value).
Its certainly not something you build every game, but its raw power against critical strikes is quite high. Its especially powerful against Yasuo and Ashe and marginally more useful against Fiora and Shaco [in that they have abilities which guarantee crit and so those abilities damage is reduced*]. I am not sure how valuable it is against pantheon but it has the same kind of interaction.
*edit: I should say that i am not suggesting that this means its a good pickup against these champions, just that the crit interaction gives it value. You should definitely pick it up against Yasuo and Ashe though
On October 28 2015 09:02 Alaric wrote: Would you go for defense over offense since you're aiming at being a tanky mofo (who still ends up 2nd damage in the game because yay passive)? Or is it only to facilitate his first and second clear in terms of speed?
From my experience Tahm Kench is innately so tanky I cant really feel much of a difference between 9 and 21 in defense (see support Tahm Kench for instance just multiply tankiness by ten since you're using better items). Might as well pick up offense to farm faster and do more damage.
Basically do really good damage for a super tank or do good damage for a super tank.
On October 28 2015 09:02 Alaric wrote: Would you go for defense over offense since you're aiming at being a tanky mofo (who still ends up 2nd damage in the game because yay passive)? Or is it only to facilitate his first and second clear in terms of speed?
From my experience Tahm Kench is innately so tanky I cant really feel much of a difference between 9 and 21 in defense (see support Tahm Kench for instance just multiply tankiness by ten since you're using better items). Might as well pick up offense to farm faster and do more damage.
Yeah, even at support.
Kench is virtually unkillable.
One time I went Devourer->BtoRK. Still nigh unkillable, but also suddenyl the best duelist in the game. E is so lulzy
One small and possibly obvious improvement on your clear: calculate how much damage W does to Gromp, then eat it and spit it at blue for a head start on your blue clear.
Oh yeah I stopped doing that when I figured out I can eat small blue minion instead, but now I don't do it in order to save mana for more Qs. So starting with gromp spit is objectively superior.
Also I completely forgot that I'm supposed to kill a small blue minion first in order to get level 4 faster so that's 2 improvements to make.
After that I buy upgraded machete + boots and just do whatever, if there's an opportunity to gank then I go for it, if not then I just get a camp and look again. Most of the time gank is just Q + 2 autos and then W, I rarely go for stun for Q (in ganks that is, different case in teamfights and skirmishes).
XJ9 is obviously a much better player than me (in fact he's probably my 2nd favorite jungler) so I'll probably try his guide, but the stuff above has worked for me pretty well.
You take 2 armour and -1 damage (or does tk count as melee?) over 3% health and 12hp?
I'd have thought 3% hp would be huge on someone who just stacks health anyway
And what would your first impressions be of xj9's runes
asp reds hp/lvl yellows armour quints cdr/lvl blues
He seems to really value cdr (rushes kindle gem even if he wont upgrade it) and not value ms as much. He even recommends selling boots at full build if you have 3 dragons.
On October 28 2015 11:37 AlterKot wrote: Oh yeah I stopped doing that when I figured out I can eat small blue minion instead, but now I don't do it in order to save mana for more Qs. So starting with gromp spit is objectively superior.
Also I completely forgot that I'm supposed to kill a small blue minion first in order to get level 4 faster so that's 2 improvements to make.
I'm not sure I understand the last phrase... Krugs -> Red -> Raptors -> Blue where kill a small monster to hit level 4 then the rest of the camp?
Also what happens when TK builds lifesteal, does the healing reduce the amount of grey health, or do you keep the same amount, leading to effective bonus HP?
Did you try to clear with 10% CC reduction instead of 2 armor from masteries? Depending on teams 10% CC reduc. can be significant and it'd be good if you could take it in those cases. I'm not at all convinced by %mspeed runes, if you can't clear without the 2 armor from masteries I think it'd be way better to just even take 1 armor quint (or aspeed/AD quints?) instead, 10% cc reduction >>> 1.5% mspeed increase imo almost always.
Oh yeah, looking at it your masteries and runes are a fucking mess. The main reason why it's viable to go 21/9/0 taking Unyielding is because you get 10% CC reduc. instead of 3% max hp which is a reasonable trade, but yeah you might not even want to go 21/9/0, mspeed quints in general are shit. I don't have time to test right now but there's definitely a lot to optimize there.
But I also get deadman's and it's not enough. Ms quints seem really popular on tk, in fact I remember saint and few others lcs/high elo junglers calling them a "gamechanger".
@alaric: If you do 5 full camps and then one small creep from either red or blue camp, you get level 4. So if you want to do fullclear starting from crugs, then you should always do blue last and start by kiling the small creep, so that you get lvl4 and finish blue quicker.
As for runes/masteries, 21/9 seems to significantly boost my early ganks and late teamfighting, while I'm tanky enough just with items and E. Regardless, I didn't conceive them, I just took a quick glance at probuilds and champion.gg, and this seemed to make the most sense. I'm willing to do some math and testing once I'm home (~10 hours from now.
As for xj9, he obviously playes tk much differently than me. Especially the movement speed thing seems unimaginable to me. I'm gonna watch some of his games and see how that works in practice.
On October 28 2015 21:25 GrandInquisitor wrote: Yeah it is kind of troubling that you'd take 2 armor over 3% health.
Honestly I'd probably run 5/25/0. He's innately tanky, yeah, but that just makes his defensive tree masteries even better.
I wonder if he's a champ where Perseverance/Second Wind is actually good?
I dont think Second Wind is worth it on him. The times where Second Wind would kick in you're almost surely going to be using your Troll Skin to waddle away.
As long as 'feeling unique' doesn't mean that we get a rock paper scissors style p/b, I don't mind them reworking adc's. Also, removing mana pods seems like a huge change for some mana hungry champions. I'm already having a hard time with yorick..
But ok, we'll see how things change. Will season 6 start immediately after 11-11?
On October 29 2015 03:59 nafta wrote: Those changes are cray. Can't wait to see how it works out. No mention of removing crit
nevermind crit, remove true damage, especially % of health true damage.
On October 29 2015 04:06 Yorbon wrote: As long as 'feeling unique' doesn't mean that we get a rock paper scissors style p/b, I don't mind them reworking adc's. Also, removing mana pods seems like a huge change for some mana hungry champions. I'm already having a hard time with yorick..
But ok, we'll see how things change. Will season 6 start immediately after 11-11?
On October 29 2015 03:59 nafta wrote: Those changes are cray. Can't wait to see how it works out. No mention of removing crit
nevermind crit, remove true damage, especially % of health true damage.
the announcement being today in tandem with patch notes means it will most likely hit the pbe later tonight. which unless they want to test it for 2 cycles (which isn't unlikely either) would put it at a day or 2 after the ladder closes
Our goal is similar to our work with juggernauts, where we targeted a group of champions (in this case six marksmen - Corki, Miss Fortune, Graves, Caitlyn, Kog’Maw, and Quinn) who occupied similar strategic spaces, and gave them a little more ‘uniqueness.’
Wait what? Corki(Oh God we need wave clear), MF(AoE Whombo), Graves(Burst), Cait(Siege), Kog(Late Game Scaler), and Quinn(Top Lane) occupy similar strategic space? What in the world?
Seems pretty clear to me that they meant ADCs that occupy strategic spaces similar to other champions and weren't sufficiently unique, not "these ADCs are similar to each other".
On October 29 2015 04:54 GrandInquisitor wrote: Seems pretty clear to me that they meant ADCs that occupy strategic spaces similar to other champions and weren't sufficiently unique, not "these ADCs are similar to each other".
Graves is maybe similar to Lucian. Cait is maybe similar to Trist/Jinx. Quinn is similar to no one. Kog is more similar to Trist/Jinx than Cait is. Corki is similar to no one. MF is similar to no one(maybe twitch?)
There is more in common between Vayne and Kalista[kitey tank killer/consistent damage], or Varus and Ashe (or sivir)[engage], or trist and jinx[reset based team fight/tower killers with burst ultimates] than there is between the set they chose and themselves, or the set they chose and the rest of the ADs.
The only thing the list conforms to is "champions that haven't been picked a lot or been changed recently"