Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread. While posting standards tend to be rather lax in this thread, pointless spam will not be tolerated.
Bit concerned about Morgana being able to spam out more bindings. If Zyra's plant AI is a big upgrade, I might just dust off the cheesy 20MPen page. =]
So... If I'm reading this right, the champ gets bonus AD for every kill or assist on the marked champion, the Q is a dash and helps clear waves, W is what lets you sustain in lane and lets you spam Q in a particular area, E is how they duel a target, and R is a mix of Undying Rage and Soraka Heal for EVERYTHING in the radius. Including dragon and baron.
And they envision this champion as a ranged jungler? No seriously, they are trying to make an ADC jungler. I don't see why you don't just play this in lane and harass the ever living shit out of your lane opponent duo. Unless its (his? her?) range is shit (like Vayne or Quinn bad) and it basically forces it to be in the jungle to get farmed up. The slow being a point and click thing is how it'd be able to even possibly succeed at a gank, but I don't think that's enough.
Eh. The real problem is that "game theory"* almost certainly dictates mirrored setups. So if you have a few champions which do not fit the meta then you're not stable, one of the setups will be superior and so be 100% pick/ban or not played. If you have a lot of champions that "do not fit the meta" and are viable then the meta shifts.
Eh, I think DotA2 stands as a counter-example to this, though I don't follow that scene closely.
LoL isn't DotA2, but if Riot keeps pushing in this direction I think they'll be able to overcome the factors that have enforced the current setup for so many years.
So... If I'm reading this right, the champ gets bonus AD for every kill or assist on the marked champion, the Q is a dash and helps clear waves, W is what lets you sustain in lane and lets you spam Q in a particular area, E is how they duel a target, and R is a mix of Undying Rage and Soraka Heal for EVERYTHING in the radius. Including dragon and baron.
And they envision this champion as a ranged jungler? No seriously, they are trying to make an ADC jungler. I don't see why you don't just play this in lane and harass the ever living shit out of your lane opponent duo. Unless its (his? her?) range is shit (like Vayne or Quinn bad) and it basically forces it to be in the jungle to get farmed up. The slow being a point and click thing is how it'd be able to even possibly succeed at a gank, but I don't think that's enough.
Large Monsters in the jungle also get marked, so you can probably stack the passive damage faster by jungling unless you're in Bronze. Without seeing the numbers it's hard to tell, but you probably lose a lot of stacks if you lane and potentially gimp your mid/late game damage.
So... If I'm reading this right, the champ gets bonus AD for every kill or assist on the marked champion, the Q is a dash and helps clear waves, W is what lets you sustain in lane and lets you spam Q in a particular area, E is how they duel a target, and R is a mix of Undying Rage and Soraka Heal for EVERYTHING in the radius. Including dragon and baron.
And they envision this champion as a ranged jungler? No seriously, they are trying to make an ADC jungler. I don't see why you don't just play this in lane and harass the ever living shit out of your lane opponent duo. Unless its (his? her?) range is shit (like Vayne or Quinn bad) and it basically forces it to be in the jungle to get farmed up. The slow being a point and click thing is how it'd be able to even possibly succeed at a gank, but I don't think that's enough.
Someone in the last thread estimated the champ's range as 300-400.
On September 16 2015 04:52 lilwisper wrote: Someone in the last thread estimated the champ's range as 300-400.
So about the same range as Gnar then?
Yeah, that 'll probably force it (him? her? them?) into the jungle and rely solely on the E + Chilling Smite for ganks, as those will be the only way for force a flash or succeed in the gank. If the E was like Braum Q where after the three hits it stunned (or snared) them for a half-second or so instead of the % max HP damage, then I think it'd work better.
On September 16 2015 04:56 Seuss wrote: I think that estimate is pretty far off. Based on the W video Kindred's range is probably at least 500.
I watched the W video a couple more times. Before they use the W active the range is probably 300-400, but when they activate the W and AA the top target it looked to be 450-500 range. And the W doesn't give increased range...
It might be it's natural AA range is 450-500, which means they'd work just fine in the bot lane as an ADC if the passive can be controlled (which I don't think it can be based upon the description of it).
Overall a fairly sensible patch since it's just before Worlds so it doesn't shake everything up too much but just has some minor tweaking that makes sense. The Kalista skin isn't as good as her Blood Moon one though.
Eh. The real problem is that "game theory"* almost certainly dictates mirrored setups. So if you have a few champions which do not fit the meta then you're not stable, one of the setups will be superior and so be 100% pick/ban or not played. If you have a lot of champions that "do not fit the meta" and are viable then the meta shifts.
Eh, I think DotA2 stands as a counter-example to this, though I don't follow that scene closely.
LoL isn't DotA2, but if Riot keeps pushing in this direction I think they'll be able to overcome the factors that have enforced the current setup for so many years.
So... If I'm reading this right, the champ gets bonus AD for every kill or assist on the marked champion, the Q is a dash and helps clear waves, W is what lets you sustain in lane and lets you spam Q in a particular area, E is how they duel a target, and R is a mix of Undying Rage and Soraka Heal for EVERYTHING in the radius. Including dragon and baron.
And they envision this champion as a ranged jungler? No seriously, they are trying to make an ADC jungler. I don't see why you don't just play this in lane and harass the ever living shit out of your lane opponent duo. Unless its (his? her?) range is shit (like Vayne or Quinn bad) and it basically forces it to be in the jungle to get farmed up. The slow being a point and click thing is how it'd be able to even possibly succeed at a gank, but I don't think that's enough.
Large Monsters in the jungle also get marked, so you can probably stack the passive damage faster by jungling unless you're in Bronze. Without seeing the numbers it's hard to tell, but you probably lose a lot of stacks if you lane and potentially gimp your mid/late game damage.
Dota2 has just a strict metagame as Lol. The dilineators simply are not in hero build types but rather farm priority and ability layering.
Edit: now that I look more closely at her range I think I was wrong. It looks over 500
On September 16 2015 04:52 lilwisper wrote: Someone in the last thread estimated the champ's range as 300-400.
So about the same range as Gnar then?
Yeah, that 'll probably force it (him? her? them?) into the jungle and rely solely on the E + Chilling Smite for ganks, as those will be the only way for force a flash or succeed in the gank. If the E was like Braum Q where after the three hits it stunned (or snared) them for a half-second or so instead of the % max HP damage, then I think it'd work better.
On September 16 2015 04:56 Seuss wrote: I think that estimate is pretty far off. Based on the W video Kindred's range is probably at least 500.
I watched the W video a couple more times. Before they use the W active the range is probably 300-400, but when they activate the W and AA the top target it looked to be 450-500 range. And the W doesn't give increased range...
It might be it's natural AA range is 450-500, which means they'd work just fine in the bot lane as an ADC if the passive can be controlled (which I don't think it can be based upon the description of it).
The issue as I see it is that you don't get stacks unless you kill/assist a marked target. At least professionally kill counts aren't going to be high enough to make that worthwhile. We need numbers to be sure, but odds are stacks are pretty relevant to kindred's damage and stacking them is much, much easier when jungling.
Eh. The real problem is that "game theory"* almost certainly dictates mirrored setups. So if you have a few champions which do not fit the meta then you're not stable, one of the setups will be superior and so be 100% pick/ban or not played. If you have a lot of champions that "do not fit the meta" and are viable then the meta shifts.
Eh, I think DotA2 stands as a counter-example to this, though I don't follow that scene closely.
LoL isn't DotA2, but if Riot keeps pushing in this direction I think they'll be able to overcome the factors that have enforced the current setup for so many years.
Dota2 has just a strict metagame as Lol. The dilineators simply are not in hero build types but rather farm priority and ability layering.
Well I spoke from ignorance then. Alas.
Still, I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that we'll simply settle on a new standard. LoL is more complicated than the Prisoner's Dilemma, and it's not impossible for the game to reach an equilibrium where additional setups are viable/competitive without any one being utterly dominant. It might be harder and perhaps more volatile, but it's not like Riot doesn't already slam down tall pegs and radically rework previously slammed pegs.
Morde not nerfed too much, basically if he was good enough for worlds before this patch, he probably still is. Here is hoping he'll see at least some group stage play lol.
Taking a slow and measured approach to my favorite champion instead of tacking on the massive knock up that was on the PBE with plant AI improvements... good job Riot.
My guess is that they didn't realize how twitchy the plant AI was and how much of a buff it would be to her damage, we'll see how this pans out though, it's not like Zyra ever lacked in damage in support or mid.
DotA has a starker contrast between farming and supporting heroes (you get maybe 10-15% less gold as a jungler, and 25% less as a support, unless the games run pretty long, but in DotA it's closer to cores getting 4-5 times a support's net worth), however that doesn't change the fact that DotA has setups with and without junglers, duo lanes, tri lanes, etc.
The main difference that farm priority gives is regarding the greediness of a setup. In LoL your setup is too greedy when it doesn't have enough to carry it to the lategame, or when it lacks a frontline to protect its carries, or to the opposite when it lacks too much damage. DotA lets you run Lina, Wraith King, Sven, etc. as supports or as core, and your setup is greedy when you need so much farm you're too busy farming to create space. In LoL whether you're a support-ish champ (Maokai) or a carry-ish champ (Riven), you'll get the same amount of farm, what you do with it dictates what your role is. In DotA you get triple the farm (and often double or even triple the levels) if you're a core compared to a support, because you can allocate a bigger % of the map's farm to a particular hero. You're greedy because you run too many heroes who want to farm.
That doesn't mean DotA isn't more volatile in that sense. LoL still has more variety than previously (mainly owning to lane swaps and how it shapes the picks, allowing an AD carry to lane alone against the enemy off laner, the support to become a roamer, etc.), but you still need a jungler, you still need a ranged aa-based physical damage dealer to siege in most cases, you're still better off running 3 "cores" whether they're tanks or damage dealers or whatever because if they're not taking that farm then noone will (big effect of how stacking jungle camps works in DotA: as long as they're getting stacked, it doesn't matter if noone's farming them, and later on a hero who roamed a lot and missed farm in lane can catch up by clearing stacks).
But DotA certainly isn't "locked" like Goumindong says it is.
On September 16 2015 05:46 Parametric wrote: Taking a slow and measured approach to my favorite champion instead of tacking on the massive knock up that was on the PBE with plant AI improvements... good job Riot.
My guess is that they didn't realize how twitchy the plant AI was and how much of a buff it would be to her damage, we'll see how this pans out though, it's not like Zyra ever lacked in damage in support or mid.
Maybe they remembered Rumble, where it was obvious that his numbers were completely out of whack, and he didn't seem as strong as they implied because he was actually bugged. Zyra's plants attack with 136 base damage and 0.8 AS at level 18, a single plant is going to outdamage most supports (that aren't Vel'Koz), some tanks (especially those with long cooldowns) and mages with stuff on cd, even without AP and before it gets buffed by her ult. She can have 3 of them at a time (4 with max CDR iirc?), and has her own aa + spell damage on top of it.
Of course Zyra is bonkers! If you actually fix her the way people want her to be you have to shoot her numbers to keep her reasonable, that's not new but Zyra players didn't seem to realise it.
On September 16 2015 04:52 lilwisper wrote: Someone in the last thread estimated the champ's range as 300-400.
So about the same range as Gnar then?
Yeah, that 'll probably force it (him? her? them?) into the jungle and rely solely on the E + Chilling Smite for ganks, as those will be the only way for force a flash or succeed in the gank. If the E was like Braum Q where after the three hits it stunned (or snared) them for a half-second or so instead of the % max HP damage, then I think it'd work better.
On September 16 2015 04:56 Seuss wrote: I think that estimate is pretty far off. Based on the W video Kindred's range is probably at least 500.
I watched the W video a couple more times. Before they use the W active the range is probably 300-400, but when they activate the W and AA the top target it looked to be 450-500 range. And the W doesn't give increased range...
It might be it's natural AA range is 450-500, which means they'd work just fine in the bot lane as an ADC if the passive can be controlled (which I don't think it can be based upon the description of it).
The issue as I see it is that you don't get stacks unless you kill/assist a marked target. At least professionally kill counts aren't going to be high enough to make that worthwhile. We need numbers to be sure, but odds are stacks are pretty relevant to kindred's damage and stacking them is much, much easier when jungling.
Eh. The real problem is that "game theory"* almost certainly dictates mirrored setups. So if you have a few champions which do not fit the meta then you're not stable, one of the setups will be superior and so be 100% pick/ban or not played. If you have a lot of champions that "do not fit the meta" and are viable then the meta shifts.
Eh, I think DotA2 stands as a counter-example to this, though I don't follow that scene closely.
LoL isn't DotA2, but if Riot keeps pushing in this direction I think they'll be able to overcome the factors that have enforced the current setup for so many years.
Dota2 has just a strict metagame as Lol. The dilineators simply are not in hero build types but rather farm priority and ability layering.
Well I spoke from ignorance then. Alas.
Still, I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that we'll simply settle on a new standard. LoL is more complicated than the Prisoner's Dilemma, and it's not impossible for the game to reach an equilibrium where additional setups are viable/competitive without any one being utterly dominant. It might be harder and perhaps more volatile, but it's not like Riot doesn't already slam down tall pegs and radically rework previously slammed pegs.
It's not a prisoners dilemma issue its a simultaneous two person game issue. Unless the game board is so symmetric to have different strategies viable on different sides then we should expect mirroring because the game is symmetric and simultaneous.
Dota 2: has a 1/2/3 - 4/5 meta. That is it has three primary laners who fulfill your your ad/ap/top equivalents. It has a support at position 5 and a jungler at position 4. Position 4 can be primarily a jungler or primarily a support. But in the end it's like League season 2 jungle meta where their primary job was to be a support with some more money. Because itemization is very different in dota who is your primary carry depends less on the type of champion and more on whether or not they can farm/how they scale with farm. But the concept of "farm dependent/level dependent" still holds in the same way that that distinction is the primary reason that ADs are bottom with the support and APs are mid alone.
The main difference is that in dota there is one long lane and two short lanes while in league there are two long lanes and that this long lane is asymmetric in dota. So you can put your 1 in the long lane or short lane and support him with 1 or 2 players. (Iirc the tendency is that if you're in the short lane you use 1 and then jungle on the blogger half primarily and if you use the long lane you use 2 with the jungler primarily supporting that lane) sometimes you also see 1s essentially solo but this is rare since if they're solo they should probably be your 2nd priority.
League has the same thing with carry tops and solo ADs and 2v1s and all that stuff; we have different classification and breakdowns because itemization works differently (in dota every type of champion gets both tank and damage from their primary ability type and every item gives some ability, if you're in a 1/2/3 position you will tend to build items which give your item type and if you're in a 4/5 you may not) but in the end it's not too functionally different. Supports build utility items and tend to have more team friendly abilities. Carries build damage (and/or tank) and tend to have more kill focused/selfish abilities.
Edit: farm priority is how it's listed because junglers can pull jungle monsters all the way to the lanes for their carries. And so just like season 2 where the mid lane would go and take wraiths/wolves to get hilariously huge you can allocate portions of the map to a particular player even if they can't necessarily get there to farm it themselves.
Alaric is wrong in suggesting that this isnt just as locked in as League is its just that the dilineations for what is locked in doesnt have a good translation to league. In league you have AD/AP heroes because AD/AP exist. But in dota there is only AD. And you get AD by by purchasing an item which has an ability (int/agi/str) which is the same as your type. The concept of an "AP carry" cannot exist in dota, just champions that can use farm/levels and are more selfish in their abilities than someone who would have a lower priority
On September 16 2015 05:45 Slusher wrote: Morde not nerfed too much, basically if he was good enough for worlds before this patch, he probably still is. Here is hoping he'll see at least some group stage play lol.
His sustain got nerfed, his damage was upped. Idk if that's the right way to go about it.
On September 16 2015 04:57 MoonBear wrote: #LuluDidNothingWrong
Overall a fairly sensible patch since it's just before Worlds so it doesn't shake everything up too much but just has some minor tweaking that makes sense. The Kalista skin isn't as good as her Blood Moon one though.
I agree. I do like the detailing on the spears that they added.
Re: Dota, Leshrac exists, Zeus exists, QoP gets a lot out of her spells early too. You can give farm to other casters for either an Aghs or the means to make their mana pools big enough to keep casting. You could technically run an all-caster type comp, and if they don't scale well into the later stages of the game then you'd have to win by midgame, the exact same way full physical/magic comps exist in LoL (magic assuming your AD carry is something like Corki).
The reason they aren't more popular isn't that "all physical is bad" in a conceptual sense, but rather that the incentive doesn't outweight the risks: you have to win by the midgame, which requires that either you outplay the enemy team (in which case you could win with a safer comp), or an all-physical comp has an item/level spike powerful and early enough to seize momentum and get a decisive lead (or end the game) then. The latter doesn't exist, especially considering that falling behind with such a comp is a death sentence. But it's tied to the balance of various champions, not to some systemic element/design paradigm in LoL preventing such a thing.
its 0.5 bonus AD so assuming you run 15 AD on ezreal via runes + 4AD from masteries thats 19 bonus AD so a whopping total extra 9.5 damage on your lvl2 powerspike!
Late game when you have +200 bonus AD from items its hardly noticeable at all, +100 extra damage on a 4k HP tank late game is not worth pulling a Zuna/Woolite for.
If it scaled off TOTAL AD then that would be a decent buff to Ezreal's early game to early mid-game.
It's not about getting stuff from their spells it's about spells having item scaling. (They do not). Such an AP carry cannot exist in dota as they do in league. This isn't bad it's just a different design decision. Otherwise you're just talking about item versus level scaling (which I talked about as a big differentiator in dota positions but it's the same differentiator in league positions too)
To say that this isn't a part of the systematic design of dota is foolish. AP doesn't exist and that is a design decision! Full Ability focused champion compositions are weak as a specific result of systematic design of dota!(split and predictable damage types, split defensive options, no ability scaling). You're essentially giving up an entire avenue of scaling and negate much of the power of farming the map. This is a design choice.
Edit: I don't want to make a "better" or "worse" statement. It's like comparing basketball and soccer/football. One isn't better for using its hands or having more rules or giving the ball back at the baseline rather than mid field after a goal. One isn't more mechanical for using its feet or hands. You're going to like one better if you prefer one aspect to another (for me it's turn speeds) but neither is better or worse or more mechanical or has a more diverse meta. Those statements just don't make sense for how we can categorize play. It's just two ways to put a ball in a net and you prefer the one you prefer. But to say that how football/basketball plays isn't a result of the design decisions is just wrong.
On September 16 2015 06:37 Goumindong wrote: It's not about getting stuff from their spells it's about spells having item scaling. (They do not). Such an AP carry cannot exist in dota as they do in league. This isn't bad it's just a different design decision. Otherwise you're just talking about item versus level scaling (which I talked about as a big differentiator in dota positions but it's the same differentiator in league positions too)
To say that this isn't a part of the systematic design of dota is foolish. AP doesn't exist and that is a design decision! Full Ability focused champion compositions are weak as a specific result of systematic design of dota!(split and predictable damage types, split defensive options, no ability scaling). You're essentially giving up an entire avenue of scaling and negate much of the power of farming the map. This is a design choice.
Just because ability power doesn't exist doesn't mean spellcasters don't scale with items.
There are actually three main ways in which DotA spells scale with items: Mana and mana regen (more spells/engagement), Cooldown (Octarine Core), and raw effect (Aghanim's). The three most picked and banned solo mid heroes at the moment do the majority of their damage through magic damage skills scaled through at least one of these ways (Storm Spirit = Mana and mana regen, Leshrac = Mana and mana regen and to a lesser extent Octarine, Lina = Mana and Aghanim's).
Then there are other cases like Skywrath Mage who scales incredibly well with items as a core because one of his skills has built-in ability power since it scales with intelligence, a stat you can buy.
I mean, if ability power didn't exist in League, you could still have casters like Ryze.
On September 16 2015 05:46 Parametric wrote: Taking a slow and measured approach to my favorite champion instead of tacking on the massive knock up that was on the PBE with plant AI improvements... good job Riot.
My guess is that they didn't realize how twitchy the plant AI was and how much of a buff it would be to her damage, we'll see how this pans out though, it's not like Zyra ever lacked in damage in support or mid.
Nothing is more fun as Zyra than watching your plant fire twice at a target then stop shooting at ANYTHING before the target even leaves your plant's range. Personally, I'm gonna miss it
_ Got patching problems? [Check the Boards](http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/help-support/6EY84k6l-new-having-issues-patching-518-click-here) for tips and solutions!_
##
> Greetings, summoners.
Welcome to Patch 5.18, the one the World Championships will be played on. That’s a lot of pressure for one patch (and to be honest 5.18’s kinda nervous about it), but we believe in its ability to provide a fine-tuned experience for pros, spectators and average joes alike.
Let’s dig into that for a second. 5.18 isn’t about nerfing juggernauts into oblivion (or buffing Trinity Force) - It’s about meaningful options. Creating a landscape where teams have the _option_ to invest in pocket-picks or non-standard strategies is just as important as being able to put them into practice when the time comes. Our changes this patch reflect a commitment to that mentality, powering down the dominant picks that threaten to take an axe to diversity (lookin’ at you, Darius) while also handing out some feel-good buffs to once-great staples (like Twitch) to stir the pot and set the stage for an open playing field.
That’s really all for us here. Though the patch may be large in breadth, our aim isn’t to go very deep on any one particular champion. We hope you’ll consider all of these options being presented, rather than defaulting to that pocket Poppy pick we know you all have up your sleeves. Once upon a time we might have said AD Mordekaiser, but look at us now.
![](https://am-a.akamaihd.net/image?f=http://news.cdn.leagueoflegends.com/public/images/avatars/ScarizardIcon_thumb.jpg) Patrick "Scarizard" Scarborough
> While not the worst at taking neutral objectives thanks to her amazing zoning potential, Dragon and Baron’s inability to be CC’d meant that Anivia’s bonus damage interaction with Frostbite wasn’t working - this changed for Ashe during her rework, and seeing as we’re pretty big fans of consistency we figured we’d fix it as a neat buff for ice birds everywhere.
STAY FROSTY Now treats Dragon and Baron as ‘frosted’ for the purposes of Frostbite’s double damage if they’ve been hit by Flash Frost or Glacial Storm in the last few seconds.
> Back in 5.12, we double-buffed Braum’s ability to fish with Q’s and start more fights with a lower cost - looking at the last few patches of professional play, it would seem that we were successful. We love Braum being used for the epic moments Unbreakable and Glacial Fissure can provide, but we’re reverting one of the changes we made back then to keep the risk/reward paradigm on Winter’s Bite in line. We’re intentionally playing it safe on the big guy, but making sure there’s a cost to missing the moment without chipping away his reward feels right for how dominant he’s been.
> You have the right to remain salty. Ever the go-to for marksmen-in-training, Caitlyn’s strategic niche of pushing and sieging has had a lot of its thunder stolen from the likes of Jinx and Tristana. That said, when hyper-carries like Vayne and Kog run rampant, it’s up to the 650-range arm of the law to take ‘em down. Placing more power in her traps aids her ability to keep opposing marksmen pinned under tower without necessarily making her more effective at clicking on melee champions and making them cry.
Q’s heal per unit reduced, but maximum heal and mana cost increased.
> The least mobile of the Juggernauts from 5.16, it’s Darius’s seemingly endless longevity in fights that tip the tension of triggering this Noxian Might into a foregone conclusion, wiping the battlefield clean of anyone unfortunate enough to be in range. Seeing how rough his release was (and how oppressive he is now), we’re taking a measured approach to find a middle ground where Darius can still succeed in fights, but has to work harder to pull off the same unstoppable feats as before.
> Now that we’ve had a few patches to observe the effects of the spiderling changes we made back in 5.14, it’s safe to say they’re scaling too well for a champion whose core strength lies in significant impact in the early-game. We’ve opted to hit the base over scaling to preserve the tradeoffs present in her itemization; building damage should still get you damage, but tankier Elise builds shouldn’t be able to get most of that while still being able to survive.
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#### ![](https://am-a.akamaihd.net/image?f=http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/5.17.1/img/spell/EliseR.png&resize=32:)R - Spider Form
> Ezreal players have always been separated into two camps: those that Arcane Shift away from danger, and those that Arcane Shift directly into it. We’re not necessarily endorsing reckless play, but taking a calculated risk with Ezreal should feel like it has an appropriate pay-off. Arcane Shift may always be more of an escape than a combo-finisher, but loading damage into it rewards aggressive positioning as he’ll have to sacrifice his safety to access it. Who needs an escape?
Base armor, base health, and health per level reduced.
> As a master duelist, Fiora’s new skillset gives her a wide array of tools to tactically dodge or mitigate incoming damage with grace. The issue isn’t smart use of her maneuvers, but rather her effectiveness when she fails to execute. At present, she’ll just beat you over the head, vitals or not. Hammering away at base stats mean that fighting Fiora (especially pre-6) should feel like less of a stat-check and more of an engaging clash of blades, putting more pressure on her to succeed with style or pay the ultimate price.
> We’ve always felt that Galio’s failure case for his ultimate is positioning, not execution. Limiting the cases you could accidentally ruin your biggest moment should keep you focused on the things that matter; like landing your ult on 5 people (and probably winning).
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#### ![](https://am-a.akamaihd.net/image?f=http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/5.17.1/img/spell/GalioIdolOfDurand.png&resize=32:)R - Idol of Durand
NO TAKE-BACKS Idol of Durand can’t be cancelled by movement commands for the first 0.25 seconds of its duration if it strikes at least one champion
> Garen’s a man of simple tastes; he spins, yells, and most importantly fights for his friends. As a protector of the meek and timid, it never made much sense that taking down the hero directly should brand you as a villain when it’s just business. We want Garen’s anti-carry to play out over the course of the game like a sort of vindictive hot-potato, but you shouldn’t be penalized for successfully crushing his dreams in lane.
Powder Keg’s bonus damage to champions and armor penetration down.
> Still vengeful, still eating citrus and still going strong, Gangplank’s power levels seems to be unhindered by our attempts to cap him in 5.17. Often you’ll find in the Patch Notes we talk about hitting a champion’s weakness to keep their strengths intact - for GP however, his strength is simply _too strong_. The amount that barrels contribute to his ability to take over a game is entirely too high in the end-game, so we’re hitting both the base and penetration to soften his blows against squishies and meatballs alike.
> Oh, Jarvan. Prince of the Jungle, King of Dunkshire, fourth of his name; once proud to call the early-game his stomping ground, our last round of nerfs removed the armor aura on Demacian Standard, and J4’s jungle presence disappeared with it. We sent him off with a little more base armor for his troubles, but it’s clear that it wasn’t enough to keep up with the Rek’Sai’s, Gragases and other top-tiers crowding out his spot.
That said, we’re not looking to dust of his throne exactly; J4’s deadly combination of early gank pressure and late-game initiation have made him a general power-pick whenever he’s deemed viable, often centralizing play around who is or isn’t good enough to compete with the Prince. Keeping that in mind, we saw an opportunity with the buffs to Warrior Enchant for a slight nudge to keep Jarvan from getting too down on himself. We’ll spare you the months of spreadsheets that went into the exact calculations, but in the end we settled on 2 armor.
Less health per level, but Pix can now double-apply Spellthief's gold passive.
> Ever the solo-lane staple, Lulu’s personal safety is a tad high for her reliability as a team-enabler. We’re targeting her health to make her more vulnerable (personal vulnerability being a _slightly_ more important stat for solo lane Lulu than duo) before she starts pumping out high-powered shields and kiting the universe. To compensate (a bit), we’re adding in a nice benefit for support Lulu’s income.
Base stats down early game. W can now be self-cast, has a health cost, but the damage no longer overlaps with his ally. Healing is increased vs. champions, but worse vs. minions.
> Perhaps the most notorious of the Juggernauts, Mordekaiser’s problems heading into 5.18 are twofold - as a duo laner, Mord’s sustain and waveclear give even his toughest opponents little-to-no window to punish his lack of range. On the flipside, solo-lane Mordekaiser’s lack of sustain makes him underperform when under pressure, folding to common lane freezes or jungler intervention.
The changes below are aimed at bringing this disparity closer together for Mordekaisers of all flavors. Attacking the effectiveness of Harvesters’ zone play means duo lane Mord’s healing less, dealing less damage, and generating less shield for those early lane-trades and all-ins that slant heavily in his favor. Letting Morde self-cast the skill should give him some more punch back in solo lane, but, for this patch, we’re more focused on seeing how it all plays out before assessing our next move.
* * *
#### General
ARMOR 24.88 ⇒ 20
ARMOR GROWTH STAT 3.5 ⇒ 3.75
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#### ![](https://am-a.akamaihd.net/image?f=http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/5.17.1/img/spell/MordekaiserCreepingDeathCast.png&resize=32:)W - Harvesters of Sorrow
newWELCOME BACK Can be self-cast even when alone
removedDON’T LET ME INTO MY ZONE Damage no longer doubles when the zones overlap
> Just a light bump to reinforce Morgana’s pattern of fishing for Dark Bindings, especially for the supports out there working their mana overtime. Y’all the real MVP’s.
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#### ![](https://am-a.akamaihd.net/image?f=http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/5.17.1/img/spell/DarkBindingMissile.png&resize=32:)Q - Dark Binding
> Skarner’s not beating people senseless, but it’s clear that he’s still generally too powerful. Skarner’s definitely checking the box on ‘relentless in his zones’ but has more chasing power than is ideal for a Juggernaut. Peeling back some of that stickiness as well as some of his unintended early scaling (oops) should move us closer to a Skarner that scraps, but doesn’t always scuttle away victorious.
OVER-CHARGED Fixed a bug where Crystal Charge’s Attack Speed and Movement Speed were scaling too quickly at early levels and too slowly at later levels
> This patch, we’re taking a lighter look at some of Syndra’s frustrations; namely running out of mana for a champion that has to cast so many spells back-to-back, and fixing more bugs around her E-Q combo’s penchant for misfiring. We’re still investigating deeper changes to Syndra that seek to address her lackluster performance, but some short-term value for the Dark Sovereign didn’t seem like it’d hurt (unless you’re on the other end. That probably hurts a _ton_).
* * *
#### General
MANA GROWTH STAT 50 ⇒ 63
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#### ![](https://am-a.akamaihd.net/image?f=http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/5.17.1/img/spell/SyndraE.png&resize=32:)E - Scatter the Weak
THE ONE WHO KNOCKS Correctly knocks back spheres when cast immediately after a max-range Dark Sphere
Q+W combo is easier to normal cast. E’s Grey Health is now visible for colorblind folks.
> Tahm’s been a regular house-guest in the Patch Notes since release as we keep finding ways to smooth his gameplay for all parties. This time around, we’ve added some clarity around TK’s grey health in colorblind mode, something that previously hindered opponents being able to see if he had any at all (that’s a pretty important thing, mind you). Add in a side of usability for his Q+W combo and you’re looking at a snack-size changelist that might tide you over for this patch.
TONGUE TIED Smoothed out the interaction between the Tongue Lash + Devour combo for normal cast. Now, casting Devour at any point while the tongue is mid-air will allow you to eat a monster or minion from a distance instead of needing to left-click devour mid-lash.
> The landscape of the game’s changed quite a bit since Twitch was last a staple pick, but looking at his hyper-carry competition, the rat’s primed for a big comeback. Already seeing spot play for the unique assassination he brings from the bottom lane, these changes pair with 5.16’s Ambush tweaks to ease the pains of setting up (or escaping) sticky situations.
> Veigar’s not far off in terms of effectiveness, but falls short relative to some of our more traditional mages. We’re targeting Dark Matter’s delay and AP growth from taking down champions as some ‘quality-of-doom’ changes so folks take him a little more seriously.
ASSISTED DOOM Now grants AP on champion _assists_ in addition to champion kills.
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#### ![](https://am-a.akamaihd.net/image?f=http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/5.17.1/img/spell/VeigarDarkMatter.png&resize=32:)W - Dark Matter
DOESN’T EVEN MATTER Front-loaded Dark Matter’s effects to the beginning of the cast animation instead of the end; Delay and cooldown effectively reduced by 0.25 seconds
Zyra’s plants are much more consistent at acquiring targets. It’s a pretty big deal.
> If you’re a Zyra player, you’re no stranger to having your plants misbehave (or sometimes just stop... doing anything, really) when you want them to rip your enemies to shreds. We’ve all been there, so we took a look under the hood to re-root how they work. What we had left was pretty scary. We’re not opposed to further changes (if necessary) but ‘my plants actually attack when they didn’t' ended up a lot stronger than we first thought, so this patch we’re planting the seeds and waiting to see what grows.
SMART PLANTS Plants will reprioritize attack targets when their primary target is obscured by fog of war instead of simply ceasing to fire altogether.
FORGET-ME-NOTS Plants now prioritize the target Zyra has most recently attacked rather than the closest target she has attacked in the past 4 seconds. Champions recently attacked will still be prioritized over minions.
> As far as the Jungle Enchant Quartet is concerned, Sated’s settled into the top spot which is a little off for how much of a gamble the item should be. High highs and low lows are key tradeoffs for the item, but its general level of success seems to be slightly warping the game at most levels of play. We don’t want to harm the cool synergies that champions have with Phantom Hit, but lowering the raw on-hit damage the item has as it grows to dominance should keep Devourer junglers off the Warrior’s early-game turf when it comes to the ‘Rock-Paper-Scissors-Runeglaive’ of jungle power-spikes.
> We’ve come a long way from the beginning of 2015, where Warrior junglers reigned supreme and ‘diversity’ was deciding between Jarvan and Lee Sin. Since then, Cinderhulk, Runeglaive and now Sated Devourer have entered the arena as options to flesh out and support a wider variety of styles, leaving Warrior feeling limp by comparison.
While perhaps not as shiny mechanics-wise, Armor Penetration does a good enough job differentiating its use from the others (Flat Armor Pen’s _real_ good at murderizing softer champs) that we’re tuning back the damage to assist those early-game folks when it comes to doin’ what they do best.
> Zeke’s has definitely succeeded in providing an offensive multiplier for marksmen and mages alike, but its widespread adoption as a first item for supports suggests its stat-efficiency may be a little out of whack for something with a high burden of coordination to pull off. We’re also aiming at pulling some of the consistency at which teams can ‘plan’ for their Zeke’s activation, putting the responsibility on the Harbingers to force fights against opponents when they're about to fire their lasers.
> Because being turned into a squirrel would probably make you lose a bit of your momentum.
ADORIBUS Lulu’s **W - Polymorph** now causes the target to lose momentum.
Back to top
## Disappearing Missiles Fix
> As we’ve touched on a few times over the past several months, we’re in the process of tackling League’s tech debt. This time, we’re addressing a bug where the game client (your computer) could incorrectly cancel a spell that still existed on the server. This led to cases where a spell could briefly appear on screen and then immediately visually disappear, but still be able to hit enemies. Sounds simple, so why a giant patch notes section?
While there’ve been a few high visibility (heh) cases of this bug in the past, it wasn’t specific to any handful of abilities. Instead, the bug was rooted in the way the game servers and the game client exchange information. Basically, the server’s cancel command was too generic - rather than “stop this thing”, it just told the game client to “stop a thing”. In cases where multiple similar actions were happening in extremely rapid succession, the game client had to guess at what the server was trying to stop, and this bug happened when it guessed wrong.
Along the lines of past efforts such as the [Line Projectile Skillshot recoding](http://engineering.riotgames.com/news/behind-leagues-new-missile-system) and the champion rescripting projects in more recent patches, we’ve gone back and cleaned up the core of our spell flow code with an eye toward ensuring spell cancelling involves no ‘guesswork’. We’ve been comprehensively testing this update for a while, but as always we’ll be keeping an eye on things as this change rolls out and follow up as necessary in future patches.
HIDE WHILE SEEKING Fixed a rare interaction that could cause in-flight missiles to visually disappear while still being able to hit enemies
WE KNOW YOU’LL ASK This change will fix cases of disappearing Nidalee spears _that fall under this bug_, but the bug where spears never show up in the first place is a separate issue
Back to top
## Howling Abyss
### Recall Animations
> Because we should all be able to spam Pool Party Renekton’s recall while waiting for the minions to arrive.
TOTAL RECALL Recalling will play your skin’s recall animation and visual/audio effects if your skin has one (Recall’s blue laserbeams will not play, and you won’t have a cast or channel bar. Damage still interrupts the animation).
Back to top
## HUD Updates
> Just another set of updates as we continue to bathe in your glorious feedback.
* Summoner names now display on the scoreboard * Team frames above the minimap are larger and more readable * Spectator HUD ultimate timers are now larger and more readable * Ping button added to the minimap
Back to top
## Instant Feedback System
> We've added a bunch of new features to the Instant Feedback System. Our [announcement](http://eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/player-behavior/instant-feedback-powers) has the full story, but here's the quick version:
* The system can detect intentional feeding * Reform cards are accessible in-client * Chat and ranked restrictions have been added to the punishments the system can assign
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## Bugfixes
* Zac's **E - Elastic Slingshot** max travel range now matches the indicator * Challenging Smite's debuff can now properly be removed by Cleanse * Darius no longer gains the Noxian Might buff from his **Passive - Hemmorhage** if the application of his fifth blood stack is blocked by a spell shield * Fixed a few cases where Viktor was gaining mana when hit by certain abilities * Cassiopeia's **W - Miasma** is no longer sometimes invisible to the enemy team * Azir's **R - Emperor's Divide** no longer pushes back/damages Zz'Rot Portals * Fiora's **W - Riposte** tooltip now mention that it blocks all debuffs
so its a ranged AD champ designed for jungle. At least this is what I understand. I am curious if people will put him/her on other positions, for example bot lane, ranged ad champ should be able to adc, I don't know, on the other hand his/her ulti is pretty supportish, so maybe even a support?
That clear speed is so bad, not to mention that if anyone even tried to invade her (at least, that's what I think I'm going to go with when talking about Kindred) she'd die near instantly.
I think the biggest knock against her right now is that the W sustain might not be enough at rank 1, so maybe a bonus heal if what she hits is a monster. Though keep in mind that this was her soloing every camp, where-as in a normal game you'd probably get help from the bot lane to help dps/burst down the first camp.
A normal jungle route will usually be krugs > red > blue > gromp > wolves > raptors if you're blue side, and gromp > blue > red > krugs > raptors > wolves for red side if you want to do a full clear before backing.
Sometimes people will back after the third camp to get the jungle item, finish up the rest of the jungle and then go gank a lane (if they are an early game jungler).
On September 16 2015 06:37 Goumindong wrote: It's not about getting stuff from their spells it's about spells having item scaling. (They do not). Such an AP carry cannot exist in dota as they do in league. This isn't bad it's just a different design decision. Otherwise you're just talking about item versus level scaling (which I talked about as a big differentiator in dota positions but it's the same differentiator in league positions too)
To say that this isn't a part of the systematic design of dota is foolish. AP doesn't exist and that is a design decision! Full Ability focused champion compositions are weak as a specific result of systematic design of dota!(split and predictable damage types, split defensive options, no ability scaling). You're essentially giving up an entire avenue of scaling and negate much of the power of farming the map. This is a design choice.
Just because ability power doesn't exist doesn't mean spellcasters don't scale with items.
There are actually three main ways in which DotA spells scale with items: Mana and mana regen (more spells/engagement), Cooldown (Octarine Core), and raw effect (Aghanim's). The three most picked and banned solo mid heroes at the moment do the majority of their damage through magic damage skills scaled through at least one of these ways (Storm Spirit = Mana and mana regen, Leshrac = Mana and mana regen and to a lesser extent Octarine, Lina = Mana and Aghanim's).
Then there are other cases like Skywrath Mage who scales incredibly well with items as a core because one of his skills has built-in ability power since it scales with intelligence, a stat you can buy.
I mean, if ability power didn't exist in League, you could still have casters like Ryze.
Also have to factor in how much better those squishy casters become when they get more utility items. Saying there's no caster that scale with items in dota is just silly. Anyway I don't think either party knows enough about Dota to really talk about it in comparison to league. Having farm distribution doesn't mean there's a static setup. Position 4 does not mean jungler or primary support, it means position 4 on farm priority. That's it. You can have offlaners with less priority than supports(Bone7 clock lol).
edit: I forgot to mention that farm priority exists in league as well. It's a symptom of the genre design with items/gold/scaling. The major difference is that farm priority is static in league so it's synonymous with positions. Many people misuse the nomenclature in dota by making it about positions like one would in league. Farm priority is fluid in Dota, it changes depending on lineups and game states. Often a position 4/5 will shift into a position 1/2 for a period of time to get an item break point which is more valuable for the team than the previous position 1/2 getting 500g closer to an item for example. It also shifts based on team composition. You see heroes like visage shift from 4 to 1 in some games and in others stays static at 3/4 position. A little test I like to do is the "if there's a wave pushing in who will farm it". That generally tells you who the team values reliable gold on the most at that given time. It's obviously not 100% accurate at sometimes you get heroes like AM where due to game state will value riskier farm that applies pressure over safe farm even though they are the highest farm priority.
Saying dota has mirrored setups like league does is rather disingenuous. League went the opposite route when it came to adjusting farm priority. Instead of making a case for lower farm priority heroes requiring farm to get item break points they created an outside stream of income to give those positions gold. Cheap cost efficient but slot inefficient items could have created a paradigm shift in how support/junglers are prioritized in the team but unfortunately riot is against that kind of itemization.
These days people seem to be big on the whole "cores" concept in dota. I don't quite get it since it doesn't tell you much as you get different kinds of cores which drastically change the team dynamic but it is more akin to the league system.
Interestingly, Kindred has good armour (81 is higher than most AP mages for exemple) and HP, but very low mana (under 900), base AD (86 at level 18) and MS. So it probably doesn't benefit from crits that much, since it doesn't have AD/AS incentives and its ratios are weak.
The passive on the other hand... mobility during W is super good too, basically Tumble, but without the stealth and limited to a zone so you can't kite/chase indefinitely. The incentive to take it bot is lessened by the passive only applying to monsters in the enemy jungle (so you'd need map control at a later point in the game to use it), even though it can only stack 6 times from monsters (still 7.5% current HP per auto), which would take around 10 minutes if you do these camps as soon as they're marked.
Q needs 225 AD to break even with the damage from one auto (without crit), so it's not that bad despite the 0.2 ratio. W doesn't have info on Wolf's AS atm, it doesn't need much AD to become weaker than an auto from Lamb but it's still potentially very high as a damage steroid. If it can't crit, that's another incentive not to build that. E's third attack does more damage than a normal one until 250 AD. Gotta see if it can crit or not (and if the %maxHP damage is included in the crit).
For someone with terrible understanding of current clear times and their relevance, is this a good time?
Like what am I actually seeing here?
Stonewall (and RoG in general) is terrible at theorycrafting and a bunch of stuff pertaining to the jungle, despite being a rather highly ranked (iirc?) jungle main. Don't pay attention to it and give Scip or Teut a PBE account instead.
Numy I think by "position" people mean "over the course of the game" rather than "at some exact given point". Even if you give your ES a wave so he can finish his Blink Dagger, doesn't mean he becomes "position 1" for a few seconds. He's still probably a support, he just gets a little nudge.
That's just people misusing the farm priority system then. It came about back in Dota 1 in the Chinese scene to talk about these changing priority of heroes. It's a way to talk about situations like when EG ran Visage then Fear leaves lane after a certain point so Visage sits there farming instead of him. A simple "Fear is Safe Carry and Aui is Support" doesn't really tell you what is actually happening in the game. It's also the same as when Fear/Aggresif go pressure with their team while their mid laner(Sumail and guy I forget) go safe farm. It's wrong to call Fear "position 1" in that instance as he's prioritizing tempo over his farm while Sumail is prioritizing farm over tempo. So not only does priority change in game but it also changes due to patches. We see some patches where mid is all about tempo carries that don't prioritize farm while safe is all about late game farmers then we see other patches were safe lane becomes the tempo while mid is all about farming or where they both farm etc.
Hell just to take an extreme point take a look at Naga Siren. She's a hero that can be anything. Some games you'll see her start out as a position 4 but by the end of the game she's got the most farm on the team and the primary carry while the initial position 1 is relegated to 2 or 3. Calling her a support or position 4 doesn't make any sense in that context. Then you get games where she stays primarily a 3/4 due to team dynamics and goals.
It's entirely possible misuse has not changed what the system means so now it's literally just static positions like in League. I have my doubts as I hear more about "cores" than farm priority these days. Cores can be interesting as it's more vague a term so there's more open to interpretation/context but even then it's still subject to in game shifts. An example would be starting with a core ES(offlaner) who transitions to a support ES later while the support transitions to core or the team just goes down to a 1/2 core team.
Anyway this went on a huge tangent. The point was that mirror setups on dota aren't fixed like in league. They can happen between similar teams and they can be drastically different too. Using the farm priority system to make it sound like they are is just incorrect. League went in a different direction years ago with trinkets and support items. I think it's fine. It's not exactly how I wanted but I still enjoy league and watching Chinese league is pretty fun. Having some more variety wouldn't hurt but I think the only way we'll see that is if the draft system is improved. Niche comps don't work without the ability to protect them.
My point is that it's possible with enough effort from Riot that niche comps will stop being niche. Changing drafting would obviously go a long way, but it's not the only thing that can help.
Also, I don't agree with Goumindong's point on symmetry. LoL isn't chess. The map isn't purely symmetrical and the pieces the players control, while generally falling into common archetypes, aren't symmetrical either. That the traditional setup has lasted this long is primarily because Riot has been enforcing it, and despite their doing so we've still seen it shaken up from time to time. Even now the early double jungle, lane swaps, and other professional plays show the cracks in the setup and the potential for there to be more variety.
Basically it's like arguing SC:BW is symmetrical because there are points of commonality between the three races.
Current meta is mostly a product of generalist champion design out of fear of enforcing roles/introducing 'gimmicks.' Tons of new/reworked champs are throwing that shit out because Riot realized specific designs create unique champions create unique meta. Couple that with itemization changes (ADCs), and it'll be pretty hard to predict where the meta goes in a year's time if the current direction continues.
On September 16 2015 22:46 Seuss wrote: My point is that it's possible with enough effort from Riot that niche comps will stop being niche. Changing drafting would obviously go a long way, but it's not the only thing that can help.
Also, I don't agree with Goumindong's point on symmetry. LoL isn't chess. The map isn't purely symmetrical and the pieces the players control, while generally falling into common archetypes, aren't symmetrical either. That the traditional setup has lasted this long is primarily because Riot has been enforcing it, and despite their doing so we've still seen it shaken up from time to time. Even now the early double jungle, lane swaps, and other professional plays show the cracks in the setup and the potential for there to be more variety.
Basically it's like arguing SC:BW is symmetrical because there are points of commonality between the three races.
In once sense Chess is less symmetric than league, because league is played simultaneously. My point was not that "we are stuck in this meta because its the one we have" but "any non-symmetric open which has a symmetric option will become symmetric or die out" and "any non-symmetric open which does not have a symmetric option will be OP/Banned".
There is a reason that professional games tend to mirrored openings and its not because riot is forcing people to play AD's bot. Its because that is the strongest option and so teams mirror.
There are tons of examples of this happening in professional league play. From 4v1 to 4v0 to double jungle until 2 swap to support junglers to which champions are priority picks. If something gets strong the other side does it. If they can't then they can ban out the champions which make that thing work, and will do so.
Then Seuss raised a valid counterpoint that DotA is not like this. Your farm distribution point doesn't hold weight in this regard because farm distribution is highly asymmetric between teams and TI5 saw incredibly varied farm distribution schemes across teams and playstyles. There was no theoretical optimum farm distribution that all teams gravitated toward as the "OP" option, nor has Icefrog ever enforced one as such.
I understand your point Goumindong, I just don't agree with you. There's a lot more involved in maintaining the standard setup than lane/comp symmetry, and much of it is stuff Riot can tweak if they want to mix things up. It's tricky, and if they fail (like they did way back when they tried to make junglers optional) then we'll simply see a different setup dominate things, but that's only if they fail. They can succeed, and I'm hopeful they will.
On September 17 2015 03:00 Seuss wrote: I understand your point Goumindong, I just don't agree with you. There's a lot more involved in maintaining the standard setup than lane/comp symmetry, and much of it is stuff Riot can tweak if they want to mix things up. It's tricky, and if they fail (like they did way back when they tried to make junglers optional) then we'll simply see a different setup dominate things, but that's only if they fail. They can succeed, and I'm hopeful they will.
It'll just take a while.
But if they succeed with only one champion, it gets banned. If they succeed with a good deal of champions, teams will mirror on the new meta.
On September 17 2015 03:00 Seuss wrote: I understand your point Goumindong, I just don't agree with you. There's a lot more involved in maintaining the standard setup than lane/comp symmetry, and much of it is stuff Riot can tweak if they want to mix things up. It's tricky, and if they fail (like they did way back when they tried to make junglers optional) then we'll simply see a different setup dominate things, but that's only if they fail. They can succeed, and I'm hopeful they will.
It'll just take a while.
But if they succeed with only one champion, it gets banned. If they succeed with a good deal of champions, teams will mirror on the new meta.
I think you are vastly overstating the newness of these champs. They fit the old meta perfectly well, and are just too strong for champions designed for the meta. Or this ranged jungler, we already have a 50% ranged jungler, and the reason we don't see more is because Riot intentionally made the jungle do shitloads of damage and be unkitable. By making a ranged character that can tank shitloads of damage at lvls 1-6, they are just extending the range of a regular jungler. So, I guess, better red buff usage!
On September 17 2015 03:00 Seuss wrote: I understand your point Goumindong, I just don't agree with you. There's a lot more involved in maintaining the standard setup than lane/comp symmetry, and much of it is stuff Riot can tweak if they want to mix things up. It's tricky, and if they fail (like they did way back when they tried to make junglers optional) then we'll simply see a different setup dominate things, but that's only if they fail. They can succeed, and I'm hopeful they will.
It'll just take a while.
But if they succeed with only one champion, it gets banned. If they succeed with a good deal of champions, teams will mirror on the new meta.
Your first statement is correct. Your second statement does not follow.
If Riot makes/reworks/rebalances a large number of champions who successfully fulfill common roles but in unorthodox positions, that does not necessarily mean that those roles will no longer function or be competitive in their current positions. That may be the outcome, but it is not the only possible outcome.
I think all LCS pros should go to Korea to play their solo queue in between seasons. I was actually impressed watching some of the pros streaming at how polished their gameplay looked. It's like a hyperbolic time chamber.
On September 17 2015 03:33 Frolossus wrote: yeah the trick to making a ranged jungler happen is higher base armor and better innate sustain. as long as probably a low CD damage ability.
the revamped leash mechanics might help this issue a bit
I'm actually not a fan of this approach. While it's probably fine to have some champs that work like this, and that isn't really the case yet (Fidd, Kayle, maybe Kindred), I think I'd personally prefer it if ranged champs had to rely on their range or finesse-ish tools (as opposed to tank&sustain) to jungle effectively (Malz/Zyra manage pets, Twitch ganks w/ red instead of farming, etc). This was sort of the case when you could wrap blue buff around the wall on one side of the map like how you can wrap red around for easy ranged kiting, but they took that out with the leash changes.
On September 17 2015 03:33 Frolossus wrote: yeah the trick to making a ranged jungler happen is higher base armor and better innate sustain. as long as probably a low CD damage ability.
the revamped leash mechanics might help this issue a bit
I'm actually not a fan of this approach. While it's probably fine to have some champs that work like this, and that isn't really the case yet (Fidd, Kayle, maybe Kindred), I think I'd personally prefer it if ranged champs had to rely on their range or finesse-ish tools (as opposed to tank&sustain) to jungle effectively (Malz/Zyra manage pets, Twitch ganks w/ red instead of farming, etc). This was sort of the case when you could wrap blue buff around the wall on one side of the map like how you can wrap red around for easy ranged kiting, but they took that out with the leash changes.
I can understand you a bit. For instance it would be nice if Heimer could be a good choice to jungle since he has the turrets and can boost regen with his passive.
On September 17 2015 03:33 Frolossus wrote: yeah the trick to making a ranged jungler happen is higher base armor and better innate sustain. as long as probably a low CD damage ability.
the revamped leash mechanics might help this issue a bit
I'm actually not a fan of this approach. While it's probably fine to have some champs that work like this, and that isn't really the case yet (Fidd, Kayle, maybe Kindred), I think I'd personally prefer it if ranged champs had to rely on their range or finesse-ish tools (as opposed to tank&sustain) to jungle effectively (Malz/Zyra manage pets, Twitch ganks w/ red instead of farming, etc). This was sort of the case when you could wrap blue buff around the wall on one side of the map like how you can wrap red around for easy ranged kiting, but they took that out with the leash changes.
Its all only a problem because the "hard jungle" is a strange way of balancing the jungle. All the finesse you are talking about really doesn't change much when it comes down to it because the monsters have so much HP and many are ranged themselves. With the "hard jungle" any character that is a good jungler either is: A) Tanky with high base damages; or B) Specialized for jungle only (i.e + damage to monsters), because otherwise they would be OP.
On September 17 2015 05:04 TheHumanSensation wrote:
On September 17 2015 03:33 Frolossus wrote: yeah the trick to making a ranged jungler happen is higher base armor and better innate sustain. as long as probably a low CD damage ability.
the revamped leash mechanics might help this issue a bit
I'm actually not a fan of this approach. While it's probably fine to have some champs that work like this, and that isn't really the case yet (Fidd, Kayle, maybe Kindred), I think I'd personally prefer it if ranged champs had to rely on their range or finesse-ish tools (as opposed to tank&sustain) to jungle effectively (Malz/Zyra manage pets, Twitch ganks w/ red instead of farming, etc). This was sort of the case when you could wrap blue buff around the wall on one side of the map like how you can wrap red around for easy ranged kiting, but they took that out with the leash changes.
Its all only a problem because the "hard jungle" is a strange way of balancing the jungle. All the finesse you are talking about really doesn't change much when it comes down to it because the monsters have so much HP and many are ranged themselves. With the "hard jungle" any character that is a good jungler either is: A) Tanky with high base damages; or B) Specialized for jungle only (i.e + damage to monsters), because otherwise they would be OP.
Additionally, unless we neuter jungle gold there will be a farm bias in the jungle. So if you create an "easy jungle" in contrast to this hard jungle then champions who don't lane well and scale into lategame will be able to use the jungle as a "free lane". Which might be just as bad as the "hard jungle"
On September 17 2015 05:04 TheHumanSensation wrote:
On September 17 2015 03:33 Frolossus wrote: yeah the trick to making a ranged jungler happen is higher base armor and better innate sustain. as long as probably a low CD damage ability.
the revamped leash mechanics might help this issue a bit
I'm actually not a fan of this approach. While it's probably fine to have some champs that work like this, and that isn't really the case yet (Fidd, Kayle, maybe Kindred), I think I'd personally prefer it if ranged champs had to rely on their range or finesse-ish tools (as opposed to tank&sustain) to jungle effectively (Malz/Zyra manage pets, Twitch ganks w/ red instead of farming, etc). This was sort of the case when you could wrap blue buff around the wall on one side of the map like how you can wrap red around for easy ranged kiting, but they took that out with the leash changes.
Its all only a problem because the "hard jungle" is a strange way of balancing the jungle. All the finesse you are talking about really doesn't change much when it comes down to it because the monsters have so much HP and many are ranged themselves. With the "hard jungle" any character that is a good jungler either is: A) Tanky with high base damages; or B) Specialized for jungle only (i.e + damage to monsters), because otherwise they would be OP.
Well, I ran out of time so I cut my post a bit short, but I was going to add that I like that gromp is ranged to make that camp specifically really difficult to take if you're a jungler that relies on kiting to clear without dying. I think it's neat that a certain class/type of jungler just really struggles with that one, while said junglers would also have a disproportionately trivial time taking blue/red buffs. I guess I like the idea of the jungle not being uniformly difficult/accessible as an alternate to merely setting a required-stat-bar?
Obviously birds being the "AoE champs clear this easy" camp and rocks being the "Kiteable" camp hasn't worked out historically, though.
edit: to clarify this I'm not disagreeing with clutz, but to build on my post that he quoted, I think it's possible or maybe even ideal to have ranged champs that clear in ways that don't rely on tanky stats but that have other limits to compensate (such as not being able to clear gromp effectively)
On September 17 2015 05:04 TheHumanSensation wrote:
On September 17 2015 03:33 Frolossus wrote: yeah the trick to making a ranged jungler happen is higher base armor and better innate sustain. as long as probably a low CD damage ability.
the revamped leash mechanics might help this issue a bit
I'm actually not a fan of this approach. While it's probably fine to have some champs that work like this, and that isn't really the case yet (Fidd, Kayle, maybe Kindred), I think I'd personally prefer it if ranged champs had to rely on their range or finesse-ish tools (as opposed to tank&sustain) to jungle effectively (Malz/Zyra manage pets, Twitch ganks w/ red instead of farming, etc). This was sort of the case when you could wrap blue buff around the wall on one side of the map like how you can wrap red around for easy ranged kiting, but they took that out with the leash changes.
Its all only a problem because the "hard jungle" is a strange way of balancing the jungle. All the finesse you are talking about really doesn't change much when it comes down to it because the monsters have so much HP and many are ranged themselves. With the "hard jungle" any character that is a good jungler either is: A) Tanky with high base damages; or B) Specialized for jungle only (i.e + damage to monsters), because otherwise they would be OP.
Additionally, unless we neuter jungle gold there will be a farm bias in the jungle. So if you create an "easy jungle" in contrast to this hard jungle then champions who don't lane well and scale into lategame will be able to use the jungle as a "free lane". Which might be just as bad as the "hard jungle"
Possibly, but I do find that this warning has been continually espoused with no evidence that it actually happens. The closest was during the Feral Flare era, which was a failing of the item itself. As we speak, there are quite a few late game carries like Jax who can clear the jungle decently enough, and really just need that first jungle item to make their clear not really different from super meta junglers, but the bias is consistently towards those junglers that can put on lane or objective pressure.
On September 17 2015 06:35 TheHumanSensation wrote:
On September 17 2015 05:04 TheHumanSensation wrote:
On September 17 2015 03:33 Frolossus wrote: yeah the trick to making a ranged jungler happen is higher base armor and better innate sustain. as long as probably a low CD damage ability.
the revamped leash mechanics might help this issue a bit
I'm actually not a fan of this approach. While it's probably fine to have some champs that work like this, and that isn't really the case yet (Fidd, Kayle, maybe Kindred), I think I'd personally prefer it if ranged champs had to rely on their range or finesse-ish tools (as opposed to tank&sustain) to jungle effectively (Malz/Zyra manage pets, Twitch ganks w/ red instead of farming, etc). This was sort of the case when you could wrap blue buff around the wall on one side of the map like how you can wrap red around for easy ranged kiting, but they took that out with the leash changes.
Its all only a problem because the "hard jungle" is a strange way of balancing the jungle. All the finesse you are talking about really doesn't change much when it comes down to it because the monsters have so much HP and many are ranged themselves. With the "hard jungle" any character that is a good jungler either is: A) Tanky with high base damages; or B) Specialized for jungle only (i.e + damage to monsters), because otherwise they would be OP.
Well, I ran out of time so I cut my post a bit short, but I was going to add that I like that gromp is ranged to make that camp specifically really difficult to take if you're a jungler that relies on kiting to clear without dying. I think it's neat that a certain class/type of jungler just really struggles with that one, while said junglers would also have a disproportionately trivial time taking blue/red buffs. I guess I like the idea of the jungle not being uniformly difficult/accessible as an alternate to merely setting a required-stat-bar?
Obviously birds being the "AoE champs clear this easy" camp and rocks being the "Kiteable" camp hasn't worked out historically, though.
edit: to clarify this I'm not disagreeing with clutz, but to build on my post that he quoted, I think it's possible or maybe even ideal to have ranged champs that clear in ways that don't rely on tanky stats but that have other limits to compensate (such as not being able to clear gromp effectively)
It makes sense if there are camps that somehow punish the tanky-bruiser style. But since those dont really exist, you are biasing it towards those champs still. Like, "Type A jungler can be anywhere on the map and get XX farm, whereas type B cannot, and gets less farm." It could work, but seems very goofy to me.
On September 17 2015 06:53 cLutZ wrote: Possibly, but I do find that this warning has been continually espoused with no evidence that it actually happens. The closest was during the Feral Flare era, which was a failing of the item itself. As we speak, there are quite a few late game carries like Jax who can clear the jungle decently enough, and really just need that first jungle item to make their clear not really different from super meta junglers, but the bias is consistently towards those junglers that can put on lane or objective pressure.
Well the jungle hasn't ever been "easy" so its hard to have evidence to support it. I was just talking about potential complications.
On September 17 2015 06:53 cLutZ wrote: Possibly, but I do find that this warning has been continually espoused with no evidence that it actually happens. The closest was during the Feral Flare era, which was a failing of the item itself. As we speak, there are quite a few late game carries like Jax who can clear the jungle decently enough, and really just need that first jungle item to make their clear not really different from super meta junglers, but the bias is consistently towards those junglers that can put on lane or objective pressure.
Well the jungle hasn't ever been "easy" so its hard to have evidence to support it. I was just talking about potential complications.
In s2 you could start boots on ashe and do camps...
^Yeah basically that. HoG into shurelya and if you ever got the money randiun's from the HoG was an easy iteration of the jungle. Getting the gold was hard because camps were so easy that every laner took them. Shit, mids took wraiths without even leaving lane the camp was so weak in hp.
On September 17 2015 06:35 TheHumanSensation wrote:
On September 17 2015 06:05 cLutZ wrote:
On September 17 2015 05:04 TheHumanSensation wrote:
On September 17 2015 03:33 Frolossus wrote: yeah the trick to making a ranged jungler happen is higher base armor and better innate sustain. as long as probably a low CD damage ability.
the revamped leash mechanics might help this issue a bit
I'm actually not a fan of this approach. While it's probably fine to have some champs that work like this, and that isn't really the case yet (Fidd, Kayle, maybe Kindred), I think I'd personally prefer it if ranged champs had to rely on their range or finesse-ish tools (as opposed to tank&sustain) to jungle effectively (Malz/Zyra manage pets, Twitch ganks w/ red instead of farming, etc). This was sort of the case when you could wrap blue buff around the wall on one side of the map like how you can wrap red around for easy ranged kiting, but they took that out with the leash changes.
Its all only a problem because the "hard jungle" is a strange way of balancing the jungle. All the finesse you are talking about really doesn't change much when it comes down to it because the monsters have so much HP and many are ranged themselves. With the "hard jungle" any character that is a good jungler either is: A) Tanky with high base damages; or B) Specialized for jungle only (i.e + damage to monsters), because otherwise they would be OP.
Well, I ran out of time so I cut my post a bit short, but I was going to add that I like that gromp is ranged to make that camp specifically really difficult to take if you're a jungler that relies on kiting to clear without dying. I think it's neat that a certain class/type of jungler just really struggles with that one, while said junglers would also have a disproportionately trivial time taking blue/red buffs. I guess I like the idea of the jungle not being uniformly difficult/accessible as an alternate to merely setting a required-stat-bar?
Obviously birds being the "AoE champs clear this easy" camp and rocks being the "Kiteable" camp hasn't worked out historically, though.
edit: to clarify this I'm not disagreeing with clutz, but to build on my post that he quoted, I think it's possible or maybe even ideal to have ranged champs that clear in ways that don't rely on tanky stats but that have other limits to compensate (such as not being able to clear gromp effectively)
It makes sense if there are camps that somehow punish the tanky-bruiser style. But since those dont really exist, you are biasing it towards those champs still. Like, "Type A jungler can be anywhere on the map and get XX farm, whereas type B cannot, and gets less farm." It could work, but seems very goofy to me.
Yes, but then they have the general issues of being tanky-bruiser champs, whereas the ranged ones have the general benefits of being ranged champs. I think it's an issue of trying to homogenize how champs interact with the jungle when there's no need to do so. ofc currently those ranged benefits don't outweigh the benefits of being able to farm anywhere successfully/quickly and we don't see ranged junglers other than nidalee, but I think they could theoretically be enabled (at least, moreso than is currently the case. idk if riot could do it without fucking something else up balance wise ofc).
On September 17 2015 07:39 nafta wrote: The jungle was never easy that why people went 2 gold items and oracle with mobos on every jungler
Not sure if sarcasm...
I think this person means that the jungle may have been easy to clear in s2, but it was hard to "succeed in", whereas success is based on something like power relative to laners at a given time.
On September 17 2015 06:35 TheHumanSensation wrote:
On September 17 2015 06:05 cLutZ wrote:
On September 17 2015 05:04 TheHumanSensation wrote:
On September 17 2015 03:33 Frolossus wrote: yeah the trick to making a ranged jungler happen is higher base armor and better innate sustain. as long as probably a low CD damage ability.
the revamped leash mechanics might help this issue a bit
I'm actually not a fan of this approach. While it's probably fine to have some champs that work like this, and that isn't really the case yet (Fidd, Kayle, maybe Kindred), I think I'd personally prefer it if ranged champs had to rely on their range or finesse-ish tools (as opposed to tank&sustain) to jungle effectively (Malz/Zyra manage pets, Twitch ganks w/ red instead of farming, etc). This was sort of the case when you could wrap blue buff around the wall on one side of the map like how you can wrap red around for easy ranged kiting, but they took that out with the leash changes.
Its all only a problem because the "hard jungle" is a strange way of balancing the jungle. All the finesse you are talking about really doesn't change much when it comes down to it because the monsters have so much HP and many are ranged themselves. With the "hard jungle" any character that is a good jungler either is: A) Tanky with high base damages; or B) Specialized for jungle only (i.e + damage to monsters), because otherwise they would be OP.
Well, I ran out of time so I cut my post a bit short, but I was going to add that I like that gromp is ranged to make that camp specifically really difficult to take if you're a jungler that relies on kiting to clear without dying. I think it's neat that a certain class/type of jungler just really struggles with that one, while said junglers would also have a disproportionately trivial time taking blue/red buffs. I guess I like the idea of the jungle not being uniformly difficult/accessible as an alternate to merely setting a required-stat-bar?
Obviously birds being the "AoE champs clear this easy" camp and rocks being the "Kiteable" camp hasn't worked out historically, though.
edit: to clarify this I'm not disagreeing with clutz, but to build on my post that he quoted, I think it's possible or maybe even ideal to have ranged champs that clear in ways that don't rely on tanky stats but that have other limits to compensate (such as not being able to clear gromp effectively)
It makes sense if there are camps that somehow punish the tanky-bruiser style. But since those dont really exist, you are biasing it towards those champs still. Like, "Type A jungler can be anywhere on the map and get XX farm, whereas type B cannot, and gets less farm." It could work, but seems very goofy to me.
Yes, but then they have the general issues of being tanky-bruiser champs, whereas the ranged ones have the general benefits of being ranged champs. I think it's an issue of trying to homogenize how champs interact with the jungle when there's no need to do so. ofc currently those ranged benefits don't outweigh the benefits of being able to farm anywhere successfully/quickly and we don't see ranged junglers other than nidalee, but I think they could theoretically be enabled (at least, moreso than is currently the case. idk if riot could do it without fucking something else up balance wise ofc).
On September 17 2015 07:39 nafta wrote: The jungle was never easy that why people went 2 gold items and oracle with mobos on every jungler
Not sure if sarcasm...
I think this person means that the jungle may have been easy to clear in s2, but it was hard to "succeed in", whereas success is based on something like power relative to laners at a given time.
^^ That was because jungle gold was pretty crappy on a per-camp basis, lane gold was more snowbally (even failed ganks were worth something like 150 gold), oracles and infinite wards were huge gold sinks, etc. Even so a Mobi-Philostone Maokai could farm camps pretty easily if he wanted to.
Lee and J4 in their stronger iterations still appeared in s2. Mao/Nauti jungle worked because of the amount of pressure they brought with minimal farm. Remember most of the stronger junglers have been nerfed more than once since s2. Operating on that level of farm in the current state of league would be tough.
i feel like the jungle would be kind of close to how it was in s1 right now if the smite buffs didn't significantly help a number of champions to do full clears.
On September 17 2015 07:50 JonnyLaw wrote: Lee and J4 in their stronger iterations still appeared in s2. Mao/Nauti jungle worked because of the amount of pressure they brought with minimal farm. Remember most of the stronger junglers have been nerfed more than once since s2. Operating on that level of farm in the current state of league would be tough.
Lee and J4 are still very gank oriented (also lee was still a strongish solo lane champ then). But Amumu and Shen also were competitive junglers, as were the more powerfarm oriented Skarner, Shyvana, and Mundo. Despite junglers being weaker compared to laners because of gold starvation, it was a very diverse jungle meta.
On September 17 2015 08:42 JonnyLaw wrote: I'd argue the mumu and shyv picks. Saint liked that exhaust Shyvana but it wasn't very good.
Also, lee and j4 were just broken no matter where you put them at that time. You're correct.
Frost ran Amumu in the finals game they won, WE ran it several times at IPL5. A lot of people ran shyvana in the jungle at worlds, also I forgot Udyr who was around powerfarming at that time as well.
On September 17 2015 10:19 obesechicken13 wrote: + Show Spoiler +
NO TAKE-BACKS Idol of Durand can’t be cancelled by movement commands for the first 0.25 seconds of its duration if it strikes at least one champion
Eh.. Dislike.
Zyra plant buffs are interesting. Someone from Riot is reading Liquid Legends or maybe I heard the suggestion on reddit?
Reddit started complaining because a Rioter revealed they were working on Zyra after some guy talked about her passive on their forum. So nope, Riot already doing stuff for Zyra.
On September 17 2015 06:35 TheHumanSensation wrote:
On September 17 2015 05:04 TheHumanSensation wrote:
On September 17 2015 03:33 Frolossus wrote: yeah the trick to making a ranged jungler happen is higher base armor and better innate sustain. as long as probably a low CD damage ability.
the revamped leash mechanics might help this issue a bit
I'm actually not a fan of this approach. While it's probably fine to have some champs that work like this, and that isn't really the case yet (Fidd, Kayle, maybe Kindred), I think I'd personally prefer it if ranged champs had to rely on their range or finesse-ish tools (as opposed to tank&sustain) to jungle effectively (Malz/Zyra manage pets, Twitch ganks w/ red instead of farming, etc). This was sort of the case when you could wrap blue buff around the wall on one side of the map like how you can wrap red around for easy ranged kiting, but they took that out with the leash changes.
Its all only a problem because the "hard jungle" is a strange way of balancing the jungle. All the finesse you are talking about really doesn't change much when it comes down to it because the monsters have so much HP and many are ranged themselves. With the "hard jungle" any character that is a good jungler either is: A) Tanky with high base damages; or B) Specialized for jungle only (i.e + damage to monsters), because otherwise they would be OP.
Well, I ran out of time so I cut my post a bit short, but I was going to add that I like that gromp is ranged to make that camp specifically really difficult to take if you're a jungler that relies on kiting to clear without dying.
Gromp: Attack Range lowered to 250 (down from 550)
I can't understand why riot cares about these things, they remove everything out of the game, which one needs to consider how to deal with it in a slightly non standard way, whatever this means
On September 17 2015 19:44 M2 wrote: Gromp: Attack Range lowered to 250 (down from 550)
I can't understand why riot cares about these things, they remove everything out of the game, which one needs to consider how to deal with it in a slightly non standard way, whatever this means
Well, what does it mean? It's just strictly a buff to ranged junglers, I don't see this extra meaning that you seem to be seeing in it.
On September 17 2015 19:44 M2 wrote: Gromp: Attack Range lowered to 250 (down from 550)
I can't understand why riot cares about these things, they remove everything out of the game, which one needs to consider how to deal with it in a slightly non standard way, whatever this means
Well, what does it mean? It's just strictly a buff to ranged junglers, I don't see this extra meaning that you seem to be seeing in it.
Might also make a difference for botlane killing it from the other side of the wall. Not a big change at all though.
Why would they word it like that "On sale permanently"? The terms are contradictory. Why not just say that the price of these runes has been reduced?
Because when you go to the rune section and click the "On Sale" filter, these will always show up.
Fair enough. It still seems a bit silly to have something permanently on sale.
I think it's silly too. Honestly, I would have just waited until they worked out the whole "bundle" process and just shipped that if I were them.
I'm assuming it's because a new player that knows nothing will be more likely to buy it if it's "on sale" instead of squandering their IP on shitty runes that don't help them.
On September 17 2015 19:44 M2 wrote: Gromp: Attack Range lowered to 250 (down from 550)
I can't understand why riot cares about these things, they remove everything out of the game, which one needs to consider how to deal with it in a slightly non standard way, whatever this means
Well, what does it mean? It's just strictly a buff to ranged junglers, I don't see this extra meaning that you seem to be seeing in it.
Might also make a difference for botlane killing it from the other side of the wall. Not a big change at all though.
It probably means that Gromp can't attack over the wall so when the ADC hits it over the wall it will reset.
They mentioned on the Kindred champion insight page how they were thinking about making ranged jungler viable without being cheesy cheeselords like Twitch. Probably going to be something we'll see more of in the somewhat foreseeable future, gromp change might be a part of that.
Also Kindred art design is amazing. Regardless of how good the champion is I love the art and voiceover.
All about using your abilities in smart ways. Don't have to make many flashy plays to be good, just be solid and hit timely hooks and use your R wisely. I definitely see him as a playmaking support though.
The concept and art direction for Kindred is top notch, I don't think many will argue that. The implementation though will probably need some more work and changes to the jungle if they want to allow ranged junglers to exist in the future. The patience bar experiment on PBE is probably a step in the right direction, but there probably will need to be some more changes to the jungle or to jungle itemization (maybe a return of Spirit Stone?)
Does reconnecting like, suck for anybody else? Anytime my wifi stops working for a few seconds I have to quit the game and rejoin because it just keeps looping 'reconnecting' forever...
I think I'm done playing League for a long time. I'm on a tilt that's 20+ games long and it just isn't fun anymore. So goes another yet without gold. =[
On September 18 2015 18:17 Kaethis wrote: They mentioned on the Kindred champion insight page how they were thinking about making ranged jungler viable without being cheesy cheeselords like Twitch. Probably going to be something we'll see more of in the somewhat foreseeable future, gromp change might be a part of that.
Well, there's already a few that while not top tier by any means certainly aren't too far from the realm of viability. Elise and Nidalee aside, there's Kayle, Malzahar and Fiddlesticks who are pretty decent. Below that there's Zyra and Karthus, and apparently TF and Teemo still work although I've no experience on the matter so they might be cheesy cheeselords idk. I've seen Brand jungle and it worked but it was cheese. I don't think Soraka or Ez can jungle anymore? Granted most of these ranged junglers are also mage junglers which everyone knows exist.
On September 19 2015 08:09 Complete wrote: Does reconnecting like, suck for anybody else? Anytime my wifi stops working for a few seconds I have to quit the game and rejoin because it just keeps looping 'reconnecting' forever...
Hasn't that been like that for a while? The reconnect system is crap, think the last time I was reconnected in game was three years ago. There was even a time when I had to completely restart my old computer because even force quitting and logging in didn't solve the problem, which took over 5 minutes. Great way to start a ranked game
The reconnect button doesn't seem to work for me either, it's just another terribly unfixed problem in the client.
On September 19 2015 08:09 Complete wrote: Does reconnecting like, suck for anybody else? Anytime my wifi stops working for a few seconds I have to quit the game and rejoin because it just keeps looping 'reconnecting' forever...
Hasn't that been like that for a while? The reconnect system is crap, think the last time I was reconnected in game was three years ago. There was even a time when I had to completely restart my old computer because even force quitting and logging in didn't solve the problem, which took over 5 minutes. Great way to start a ranked game
The reconnect button doesn't seem to work for me either, it's just another terribly unfixed problem in the client.
I never had any trouble reconnecting unless the net is out for more than 5 minutes, used to have a shitty router that DC'ed every 20-30 min for 5-10 seconds and reconnect worked every time...
On September 20 2015 10:44 Gahlo wrote: From 49.77% to 54.06%. Good lord that's a sizable bump.
Both buffs were extremely significant.
W is 0.25 seconds faster, which is obviously an immediate and significant buff.
The Q passive buff is deceptively strong. With Rank 5 Q, you get +5 AP per assist in addition to kills. On average, Veigar in 5.17 was getting ~8 assists per game. That's a lot of AP that he is getting for free from the buff. In addition to that, it seems to me that Veigar's E is getting unintended assists. Sometimes I can get assists without actually landing the stun.
I mean, Veigar's damage has always been terrifying, especially if you were an AP champion, his ultimate is one of the few one shot abilities in the game. Making his W more reliable and making it even easier to stack AP was a bit questionable, they should've gone with one or the other.
Maybe I'll pull out that random Veigar skin I once bought for him when I wanted to main him
Scip wrote: Anyway, I love you JonGalt, but I can't wait to see you crash and burn trying to climb the ladder. I remember you claiming you're gonna get diamond in like 2 months (or something along those lines) some time back and I absolutely expect you to get royally fucked. You could surprise me, but I have a hunch :3
On September 20 2015 11:21 Sufficiency wrote: In addition to that, it seems to me that Veigar's E is getting unintended assists. Sometimes I can get assists without actually landing the stun.
Veigar E gives credit for assists for any enemies that is in it, I believe.
On September 20 2015 11:21 Sufficiency wrote: In addition to that, it seems to me that Veigar's E is getting unintended assists. Sometimes I can get assists without actually landing the stun.
Veigar E gives credit for assists for any enemies that is in it, I believe.
Yes. Veigar E was changed to give assists to enemies inside it so that Veigar wouldn't feel bad about trapping someone and then not getting the assist because they chose to not walk into the stun
On September 20 2015 11:21 Sufficiency wrote: In addition to that, it seems to me that Veigar's E is getting unintended assists. Sometimes I can get assists without actually landing the stun.
Veigar E gives credit for assists for any enemies that is in it, I believe.
Yes. Veigar E was changed to give assists to enemies inside it so that Veigar wouldn't feel bad about trapping someone and then not getting the assist because they chose to not walk into the stun
I foresee that getting "fixed" for next patch.
Also you don't need to be in it. Casting E on the edge also gives assists.
I think it's one of those changes they didn't quite think through. Veigar still has a rough early game but with how solo q is you can almost rely on people not really winning when they ahead so you just sit back and get a massive amount of AP then wreck people.
On September 21 2015 00:38 Numy wrote: I think it's one of those changes they didn't quite think through. Veigar still has a rough early game but with how solo q is you can almost rely on people not really winning when they ahead so you just sit back and get a massive amount of AP then wreck people.
This is absolutely true. +ap on assists allows him to catch up far more easily.
Titanic Hydra is really goddamn strong on Sion yeah. Feels good when you just kill squishies in a single combo because of the added burst. Also makes your passive zombie pretty terrifying, even lategame.
On September 20 2015 17:33 Ketara wrote: You know who stomps the shit out of Veigar ezmode?
Starts with an L.
I would say Yasuo and Zed are far more problematic.
I mean, that works too and all, but according to our beloved champion.gg, Veigar has a 53% winrate against Zed, a 54% winrate against Yasuo, and a 48% winrate against Lux.
Really there's a lot of things that dumpster Veigar in lane. I'm kind of surprised he's suddenly good!
Also every time kaethis posts I think it's Teutonica and wonder why its not written like a Teutonica post.
On September 20 2015 17:33 Ketara wrote: You know who stomps the shit out of Veigar ezmode?
Starts with an L.
I would say Yasuo and Zed are far more problematic.
I mean, that works too and all, but according to our beloved champion.gg, Veigar has a 53% winrate against Zed, a 54% winrate against Yasuo, and a 48% winrate against Lux.
Really there's a lot of things that dumpster Veigar in lane. I'm kind of surprised he's suddenly good!
Also every time kaethis posts I think it's Teutonica and wonder why its not written like a Teutonica post.
Its so much easier than it used to be to rush Zhonya's in lane against Zed that a lot of the champions that he used to counter aren't as weak to him anymore
On September 21 2015 07:34 Caiada wrote: Lane matchups are less relevant than ever, tbh. Meta>=power level relative to ubiquitous picks>matchups against ubiquitous picks>general matchups.
Lux is good against Veigar both in lane and later in the game.
She beats the shit out of him in lane, and then later on uses her shield to prevent him from bursting people while continuing to outrange him.
I can see Zed and Yasuo being good against the Veig in lane, but not in teamfights because their ults have telegraphed positioning that makes them very easy to stun. Just my guess.
On September 20 2015 17:33 Ketara wrote: You know who stomps the shit out of Veigar ezmode?
Starts with an L.
I would say Yasuo and Zed are far more problematic.
I mean, that works too and all, but according to our beloved champion.gg, Veigar has a 53% winrate against Zed, a 54% winrate against Yasuo, and a 48% winrate against Lux.
Really there's a lot of things that dumpster Veigar in lane. I'm kind of surprised he's suddenly good!
Also every time kaethis posts I think it's Teutonica and wonder why its not written like a Teutonica post.
Your analysis does not take into account of Zed/Yasuo's overall win rate. They may be bad champions overall, but they are actually effective against Veigar.
On September 21 2015 08:14 Goumindong wrote: No, lane advantages still matter. And lux is good against Veigar in lane and in team fights
Aside: Its so much easier to hit W's now its almost unfair. The .25 second reduction is massive
Yes. W is so good now that I use it like a glorified Karthus skittle. It's actually extremely effective even if E is on cooldown.
Also keep in mind Yasuo/Zed do not merely have a lane advantage vs Veigar.
So our options are to play champions that are strong vs Veigar and also bad in general, or strong vs Veigar and also good in general.
I'd like to see Dai's advice on this Veigar trend. He was a D1 Veigar main in early s5 and far as I know when they reworked him he just stopped playing.
This being the worlds patch I am wondering if they plan on leaving Veigar how he is he's going to be hot fixed. Because he is 100 percent pick ban at worlds imo. I think this worlds might have the most "outliers" ever. Darius garen vayne Veigar and skarner seem to be champs u would always want to pick or ban because there is really no draw back or situation u wouldn't want them.
On September 21 2015 12:05 IamPryda wrote: This being the worlds patch I am wondering if they plan on leaving Veigar how he is he's going to be hot fixed. Because he is 100 percent pick ban at worlds imo. I think this worlds might have the most "outliers" ever. Darius garen vayne Veigar and skarner seem to be champs u would always want to pick or ban because there is really no draw back or situation u wouldn't want them.
I don't actually think Veigar is going to be picked at World's, at least not 100% p/b. His range isn't too great and single target damage is pretty mediocre.
Also he is still countered fairly hard by things like Banshee and more importantly, Olaf.
While the ap on assist is more of a solo q buff. That .25 makes a huge difference disregard Olaf and his ability to fit into any comp and poke siege zone kite teamfight makes him seem like a less absurd version of pre nerf azir
On September 21 2015 12:44 IamPryda wrote: While the ap on assist is more of a solo q buff. That .25 makes a huge difference disregard Olaf and his ability to fit into any comp and poke siege zone kite teamfight makes him seem like a less absurd version of pre nerf azir
I am somewhat doubtful of that. His laning phase is still really, really bad. Picks like Zed and Yasuo will just roll him over, while other powerpicks like Ahri, Azir, and Viktor will tear him apart. His E also costs too much mana to cast and leaves him too vulnerable.
Now, you can argue that Syndra, especially with her R, is similar to Veigar. But I think Syndra has a vastly superior laning phase and her range is a lot longer. When a professional team sees Veigar I think they are just going to invade jungle 24/7; Veigar's early game is too weak to do anything useful.
I think Veigar *might* get picked a couple of times at World's as a niche pick or counter to certain mid laners (maybe Xerath or Twisted Fate), but I really do not see him being 100% picked or banned.
On September 21 2015 12:44 IamPryda wrote: While the ap on assist is more of a solo q buff. That .25 makes a huge difference disregard Olaf and his ability to fit into any comp and poke siege zone kite teamfight makes him seem like a less absurd version of pre nerf azir
I am somewhat doubtful of that. His laning phase is still really, really bad. Picks like Zed and Yasuo will just roll him over, while other powerpicks like Ahri, Azir, and Viktor will tear him apart. His E also costs too much mana to cast and leaves him too vulnerable.
Now, you can argue that Syndra, especially with her R, is similar to Veigar. But I think Syndra has a vastly superior laning phase and her range is a lot longer. When a professional team sees Veigar I think they are just going to invade jungle 24/7; Veigar's early game is too weak to do anything useful.
I think Veigar *might* get picked a couple of times at World's as a niche pick or counter to certain mid laners (maybe Xerath or Twisted Fate), but I really do not see him being 100% picked or banned.
The jungle invade and early 2v2/3v3 skirmishes might be an issue but I don't think his laning phase is that weak tbh. I look at ahri and azir as issues but yas and zed right now are really champs your not going to see picked much. Yasuo is a pocket pick top most of the time anyway and zed is just underwhelming right now. I could be completely wrong depending on where the jungle lands with warriors slightly buffed and devour slightly nerfed.
On September 21 2015 12:05 IamPryda wrote: This being the worlds patch I am wondering if they plan on leaving Veigar how he is he's going to be hot fixed. Because he is 100 percent pick ban at worlds imo. I think this worlds might have the most "outliers" ever. Darius garen vayne Veigar and skarner seem to be champs u would always want to pick or ban because there is really no draw back or situation u wouldn't want them.
I don't actually think Veigar is going to be picked at World's, at least not 100% p/b. His range isn't too great and single target damage is pretty mediocre.
Also he is still countered fairly hard by things like Banshee and more importantly, Olaf.
There's also some godlike Yasuo/Zed players going to worlds, picking Veigar into Rookie sounds like a deathwish.
The thing about Veigar is that he's a walking time bomb, a bit like old Jax except that his damage scales infinitely. There just comes a point where Veigar only has to land his ultimate on an AP champion to blow them up. So we might see teams run early/mid game comps, camp his lane, take dragons and try to build up a lead before he gets to that point. Or run AD mid laners to prevent him from one shotting.
The W buff applies to pro play, but the Q buff starts working if you get a bunch of assists: considering how pro games tend to have a lot less kills (and starting later) than soloQ, it has a much lower impact there too.
On September 21 2015 12:05 IamPryda wrote: This being the worlds patch I am wondering if they plan on leaving Veigar how he is he's going to be hot fixed. Because he is 100 percent pick ban at worlds imo. I think this worlds might have the most "outliers" ever. Darius garen vayne Veigar and skarner seem to be champs u would always want to pick or ban because there is really no draw back or situation u wouldn't want them.
I don't actually think Veigar is going to be picked at World's, at least not 100% p/b. His range isn't too great and single target damage is pretty mediocre.
Also he is still countered fairly hard by things like Banshee and more importantly, Olaf.
There's also some godlike Yasuo/Zed players going to worlds, picking Veigar into Rookie sounds like a deathwish.
The thing about Veigar is that he's a walking time bomb, a bit like old Jax except that his damage scales infinitely. There just comes a point where Veigar only has to land his ultimate on an AP champion to blow them up. So we might see teams run early/mid game comps, camp his lane, take dragons and try to build up a lead before he gets to that point. Or run AD mid laners to prevent him from one shotting.
Veigar's infinite scaling is not that different from Nasus's. It's overrated.
Also, as a time bomb, I think Azir and AP Kog are far more dangerous.
On September 21 2015 12:05 IamPryda wrote: This being the worlds patch I am wondering if they plan on leaving Veigar how he is he's going to be hot fixed. Because he is 100 percent pick ban at worlds imo. I think this worlds might have the most "outliers" ever. Darius garen vayne Veigar and skarner seem to be champs u would always want to pick or ban because there is really no draw back or situation u wouldn't want them.
I don't actually think Veigar is going to be picked at World's, at least not 100% p/b. His range isn't too great and single target damage is pretty mediocre.
Also he is still countered fairly hard by things like Banshee and more importantly, Olaf.
There's also some godlike Yasuo/Zed players going to worlds, picking Veigar into Rookie sounds like a deathwish.
The thing about Veigar is that he's a walking time bomb, a bit like old Jax except that his damage scales infinitely. There just comes a point where Veigar only has to land his ultimate on an AP champion to blow them up. So we might see teams run early/mid game comps, camp his lane, take dragons and try to build up a lead before he gets to that point. Or run AD mid laners to prevent him from one shotting.
Veigar's infinite scaling is not that different from Nasus's. It's overrated.
Also, as a time bomb, I think Azir and AP Kog are far more dangerous.
Veigar gets 3 AP for every 2 minions he kills with Rabadons, and his W and ult scale 1:1. Throw in the AP he's already building, and he can one shot a lot of AP champions by the 20 minute mark. I would consider him pretty different from Nasus, who you can kite to death and deny a lot of CS in the laning phase.
Azir and Kog are scary scaling champs as well, but in different ways.
On September 21 2015 22:51 Goumindong wrote: Veigar does not get 3 AP per 2 minions because
1) the multiplier is not that much
2) any good Veigar will farm more with w than q.
Also veigars early game teamfight is really strong. It's just his 1v1 lane that is weak and it's not even that weak.
1.4 from dcap plus the masteries gets it close enough to 1.5 for all intents and purposes. Your W wipes out the caster wave very easily, but it's not hard to finagle a double melee minion kill with a couple autos and positioning.
PS. I still prefer Brand over Veigar btw. Surprisingly, Brand has the third highest winrate (overall) on op.gg. He's ahead of Lux there fwiw.
the same time my trundle freelo train ends, dumpsters pretty much every popular top right now. cant really fight gangplank since he just sits 50000 yards back so thats about the only meta problem
but really the ability to make their tank a wet noodle on what has really become a 1 tank meta is really powerful. especially when people get mindgamed and build damage on champs that shouldnt be due to your presence
The rylai and liandry's changes are pretty good for Brand. Combining both items gives 50 AP more than previously (about 70 if you buy deathcap), and the popularity of juggernauts makes it easier for him to hit Qs (had to play him against Vayne+Katarina yesterday, geez), along with nice targets for Liandry's burn.
Add to this that the current popular top laners are all physical (Garen, Darius, Fiora, GP, Gnar, etc.) so everyone tends to build armour and a bunch of HP first (BC and/or DMP compared to when Maokai, Fizz and Sion prompted some MR), which plays into his midgame spike where he can burst people down.
If the meta moves back to mobile comps to play around the juggernauts rather than kite them (or includes assassins to snipe the squishies then deal with the big guys alone) he's going to take a hit.
^ isn't Trundle susceptible to Darius since you can close in on him without eating a Q? I usually play Irelia or Maokai (Irelia dumpsters GP, is stronger than Fiora early on, and I'm good enough at Maokai to punish people who underestimate his ability to go aggro or who burn important abilities for me to dodge with W) so I can always close on him when I see him start the animation. Plus Trundle won't kill him fast so you lose the manfight as Darius reaches 5 stacks right?
On September 21 2015 23:43 Alaric wrote: The rylai and liandry's changes are pretty good for Brand. Combining both items gives 50 AP more than previously (about 70 if you buy deathcap), and the popularity of juggernauts makes it easier for him to hit Qs (had to play him against Vayne+Katarina yesterday, geez), along with nice targets for Liandry's burn.
Add to this that the current popular top laners are all physical (Garen, Darius, Fiora, GP, Gnar, etc.) so everyone tends to build armour and a bunch of HP first (BC and/or DMP compared to when Maokai, Fizz and Sion prompted some MR), which plays into his midgame spike where he can burst people down.
If the meta moves back to mobile comps to play around the juggernauts rather than kite them (or includes assassins to snipe the squishies then deal with the big guys alone) he's going to take a hit.
^ isn't Trundle susceptible to Darius since you can close in on him without eating a Q? I usually play Irelia or Maokai (Irelia dumpsters GP, is stronger than Fiora early on, and I'm good enough at Maokai to punish people who underestimate his ability to go aggro or who burn important abilities for me to dodge with W) so I can always close on him when I see him start the animation. Plus Trundle won't kill him fast so you lose the manfight as Darius reaches 5 stacks right?
honestly dying in top lane is pretty rare now that I jumped back up to high diamond, The point is in teamfights darius is doing absolutely zip when you pillar him and ult him and he dies in 2 seconds and gets kited to shit lol
Ive only managed solo kills on champs like fiora that i can kill in 4 autos basically. ive solo killed hecarim as well and other squishies like that. usually garen tries to all in me and gets destroyed then just runs away. thats what usually happens.
trundles strengths are taking towers with titanic hydra rotations and dominating teamfights on kite teams. seriously if you have like jinx/tf/trundle the other team is gonna have a bad time.
Wait... Titanic's active does bonus damage to towers? That's pretty big. Not sure about the lack of sustain outside of his passive in teamfights, but I assume that since you're not looking to dive it works out 0K.
And I was assuming Darius beats Trundle in trades and because of this can zone him, which makes Trundle sad as he can't farm from afar like Olaf or isn't slippery like Fiora (Olaf prob gets trucked by Darius too, sadness). I probably rely too much on playing aggressive, winning trades and freezing/zoning as ways to win lane and translate it onto the map, so I have issues figuring how Trundle can not fall behind Darius in farm and then rely on his team to take opportunity of his ult and pillar properly.
On September 22 2015 00:07 Alaric wrote: Wait... Titanic's active does bonus damage to towers? That's pretty big. Not sure about the lack of sustain outside of his passive in teamfights, but I assume that since you're not looking to dive it works out 0K.
And I was assuming Darius beats Trundle in trades and because of this can zone him, which makes Trundle sad as he can't farm from afar like Olaf or isn't slippery like Fiora (Olaf prob gets trucked by Darius too, sadness). I probably rely too much on playing aggressive, winning trades and freezing/zoning as ways to win lane and translate it onto the map, so I have issues figuring how Trundle can not fall behind Darius in farm and then rely on his team to take opportunity of his ult and pillar properly.
i actually didnt even think of that, but having titanic to waveclear works wonders since hes always been a terror tower pusher but has bad waveclear so you could see it coming easily. with titanic you clear fast get the tower and get out.
trundle loses to darius until botrk so yea you might get down like 10 cs. you have insane sustain as long as you remember to throw down W when you clear a big wave so you cant get taken out of lane. also darius is super easy to gank with pillar so there's that, I dont like to rely on jungler though.
but yea as soon as you get botrk you can pretty much just run at any melee and kill them easily 1v1.
On September 21 2015 22:51 Goumindong wrote: Veigar does not get 3 AP per 2 minions because
1) the multiplier is not that much
2) any good Veigar will farm more with w than q.
Also veigars early game teamfight is really strong. It's just his 1v1 lane that is weak and it's not even that weak.
1.4 from dcap plus the masteries gets it close enough to 1.5 for all intents and purposes. Your W wipes out the caster wave very easily, but it's not hard to finagle a double melee minion kill with a couple autos and positioning.
PS. I still prefer Brand over Veigar btw. Surprisingly, Brand has the third highest winrate (overall) on op.gg. He's ahead of Lux there fwiw.
Brands win rate is for support. His win rate mid is decent (52.5%)but it isn't lux (55%)
So... you build Trundle with whatever runes (ArPen/AD or AD/AD better for quick trades I assume but AD/AS gives good dps and easier last-hitting?), start dshield or short sword+3 pots, rush BotRK with some pots and boots whenever your opponent does (or finishes Phage I assume), then build Titanic if you don't need resistances? Tabi/Mercs depending on comp, SV, then Randuin's if you need to peel/kite, DMP if your comp is the agressor/to zoom around the map if you're splitting.
Play conservatively in lane since Trundle is good at farming under tower and his passive will sustain him. As long as they can't dive you, you're fine. Be careful not to overstay against champions like Darius who like long fights too. If your opponent starts freezing/zoning, call the jungle since Trundle can't break a freeze if he can't sit in the wave autoing it unopposed.
Something along these lines? Do you max Pillar second for the CDR, or use scaling CDR blues to make up for not going FH anymore?
On September 22 2015 00:33 Alaric wrote: So... you build Trundle with whatever runes (ArPen/AD or AD/AD better for quick trades I assume but AD/AS gives good dps and easier last-hitting?), start dshield or short sword+3 pots, rush BotRK with some pots and boots whenever your opponent does (or finishes Phage I assume), then build Titanic if you don't need resistances? Tabi/Mercs depending on comp, SV, then Randuin's if you need to peel/kite, DMP if your comp is the agressor/to zoom around the map if you're splitting.
Play conservatively in lane since Trundle is good at farming under tower and his passive will sustain him. As long as they can't dive you, you're fine. Be careful not to overstay against champions like Darius who like long fights too. If your opponent starts freezing/zoning, call the jungle since Trundle can't break a freeze if he can't sit in the wave autoing it unopposed.
Something along these lines? Do you max Pillar second for the CDR, or use scaling CDR blues to make up for not going FH anymore?
I run 15 AD 5% flat CD usually, same runes/mastery setup as nasus. makes a lot more sense on nasus since FH/visage/masteries/5% from runes is a perfect 40% but whatever.
I start d blade and do a camp usually, I take the opposing junglers red/blue if possible (say the opponent invades and i know they have no coverage there)
then tp to lane with 3 pots dblade and a ward since trundle is REALLY bad vs ganks early. later you can 1v2. and yea build usually looks like botrk + titanic + mercs as a core and then situational. yasuo and jinx? randuins. generic movespeed/armor? DMP. etc.
know your matchups, who you can bully early and who you cannot (you dumpster riven from the get go) (be wary of trading with irelia before merc treads)
top I max w 2nd, support i max pillar 2nd.
and always abuse your botrk timing. botrk trundle can 1v2 easily assuming you hit this spike at a normal or accelerated time
On September 22 2015 00:07 Alaric wrote: Wait... Titanic's active does bonus damage to towers? That's pretty big. Not sure about the lack of sustain outside of his passive in teamfights, but I assume that since you're not looking to dive it works out 0K.
And I was assuming Darius beats Trundle in trades and because of this can zone him, which makes Trundle sad as he can't farm from afar like Olaf or isn't slippery like Fiora (Olaf prob gets trucked by Darius too, sadness). I probably rely too much on playing aggressive, winning trades and freezing/zoning as ways to win lane and translate it onto the map, so I have issues figuring how Trundle can not fall behind Darius in farm and then rely on his team to take opportunity of his ult and pillar properly.
i actually didnt even think of that, but having titanic to waveclear works wonders since hes always been a terror tower pusher but has bad waveclear so you could see it coming easily. with titanic you clear fast get the tower and get out.
trundle loses to darius until botrk so yea you might get down like 10 cs. you have insane sustain as long as you remember to throw down W when you clear a big wave so you cant get taken out of lane. also darius is super easy to gank with pillar so there's that, I dont like to rely on jungler though.
but yea as soon as you get botrk you can pretty much just run at any melee and kill them easily 1v1.
Do you run into mana issues when you spam W to heal up on a big wave? Also, would Trundle lose hard vs Gnar? Gnar seems like he can get out of Trundle's BS and if he's not tanky it's less important if he's getting 3-4 man flash ults.
On September 22 2015 00:07 Alaric wrote: Wait... Titanic's active does bonus damage to towers? That's pretty big. Not sure about the lack of sustain outside of his passive in teamfights, but I assume that since you're not looking to dive it works out 0K.
And I was assuming Darius beats Trundle in trades and because of this can zone him, which makes Trundle sad as he can't farm from afar like Olaf or isn't slippery like Fiora (Olaf prob gets trucked by Darius too, sadness). I probably rely too much on playing aggressive, winning trades and freezing/zoning as ways to win lane and translate it onto the map, so I have issues figuring how Trundle can not fall behind Darius in farm and then rely on his team to take opportunity of his ult and pillar properly.
i actually didnt even think of that, but having titanic to waveclear works wonders since hes always been a terror tower pusher but has bad waveclear so you could see it coming easily. with titanic you clear fast get the tower and get out.
trundle loses to darius until botrk so yea you might get down like 10 cs. you have insane sustain as long as you remember to throw down W when you clear a big wave so you cant get taken out of lane. also darius is super easy to gank with pillar so there's that, I dont like to rely on jungler though.
but yea as soon as you get botrk you can pretty much just run at any melee and kill them easily 1v1.
Do you run into mana issues when you spam W to heal up on a big wave? Also, would Trundle lose hard vs Gnar? Gnar seems like he can get out of Trundle's BS and if he's not tanky it's less important if he's getting 3-4 man flash ults.
yup gnar is feast or famine he either completely counters top lanes or gets destroyed by irelia and the like. ofc there is nothing trundle can do in this mu except sit at tower and farm but its not the end of the world.
No mana issues unless jungler comes for gank, using pillar in lane is really costly early. avoid using pillar if you dont want to back
Top lane really is so skill dependent though. I know you mentioned at high diamond you don't notice many solo kills but then there's people like boxbox (and others like him) who play go for the throat mentality and force you to fight them. It's not a majority of the time, but if you're in one of those lanes you need to outplay them or beg for ganks.
On September 22 2015 00:07 Alaric wrote: Wait... Titanic's active does bonus damage to towers? That's pretty big. Not sure about the lack of sustain outside of his passive in teamfights, but I assume that since you're not looking to dive it works out 0K.
And I was assuming Darius beats Trundle in trades and because of this can zone him, which makes Trundle sad as he can't farm from afar like Olaf or isn't slippery like Fiora (Olaf prob gets trucked by Darius too, sadness). I probably rely too much on playing aggressive, winning trades and freezing/zoning as ways to win lane and translate it onto the map, so I have issues figuring how Trundle can not fall behind Darius in farm and then rely on his team to take opportunity of his ult and pillar properly.
i actually didnt even think of that, but having titanic to waveclear works wonders since hes always been a terror tower pusher but has bad waveclear so you could see it coming easily. with titanic you clear fast get the tower and get out.
trundle loses to darius until botrk so yea you might get down like 10 cs. you have insane sustain as long as you remember to throw down W when you clear a big wave so you cant get taken out of lane. also darius is super easy to gank with pillar so there's that, I dont like to rely on jungler though.
but yea as soon as you get botrk you can pretty much just run at any melee and kill them easily 1v1.
Do you run into mana issues when you spam W to heal up on a big wave? Also, would Trundle lose hard vs Gnar? Gnar seems like he can get out of Trundle's BS and if he's not tanky it's less important if he's getting 3-4 man flash ults.
yup gnar is feast or famine he either completely counters top lanes or gets destroyed by irelia and the like. ofc there is nothing trundle can do in this mu except sit at tower and farm but its not the end of the world.
No mana issues unless jungler comes for gank, using pillar in lane is really costly early. avoid using pillar if you dont want to back
Oddly champion.gg thinks that Trundle does well vs Nasus, Garen, Shen, and Irelia, and is countered by Gnar, Renekton, Malphite, and Yasuo. Then again it also lists Vladimir on both sides so I don't know how accurate this is.
Why do you think Trundle gets destroyed by Irelia? Also, how does Trundle counter Nasus? I would think that Frozen Heart / Wither would wreck Trundle's DPS.
On September 22 2015 00:07 Alaric wrote: Wait... Titanic's active does bonus damage to towers? That's pretty big. .
Most bonus damage on auto attacks hits towers so long as it's a one time proc. Sheen items too. TF cards do. I think nasus q stacks do. The only things that don't are things that apply to every auto attack like teemo e, and I think Nashors on-hit
On September 22 2015 00:07 Alaric wrote: Wait... Titanic's active does bonus damage to towers? That's pretty big. Not sure about the lack of sustain outside of his passive in teamfights, but I assume that since you're not looking to dive it works out 0K.
And I was assuming Darius beats Trundle in trades and because of this can zone him, which makes Trundle sad as he can't farm from afar like Olaf or isn't slippery like Fiora (Olaf prob gets trucked by Darius too, sadness). I probably rely too much on playing aggressive, winning trades and freezing/zoning as ways to win lane and translate it onto the map, so I have issues figuring how Trundle can not fall behind Darius in farm and then rely on his team to take opportunity of his ult and pillar properly.
i actually didnt even think of that, but having titanic to waveclear works wonders since hes always been a terror tower pusher but has bad waveclear so you could see it coming easily. with titanic you clear fast get the tower and get out.
trundle loses to darius until botrk so yea you might get down like 10 cs. you have insane sustain as long as you remember to throw down W when you clear a big wave so you cant get taken out of lane. also darius is super easy to gank with pillar so there's that, I dont like to rely on jungler though.
but yea as soon as you get botrk you can pretty much just run at any melee and kill them easily 1v1.
Do you run into mana issues when you spam W to heal up on a big wave? Also, would Trundle lose hard vs Gnar? Gnar seems like he can get out of Trundle's BS and if he's not tanky it's less important if he's getting 3-4 man flash ults.
yup gnar is feast or famine he either completely counters top lanes or gets destroyed by irelia and the like. ofc there is nothing trundle can do in this mu except sit at tower and farm but its not the end of the world.
No mana issues unless jungler comes for gank, using pillar in lane is really costly early. avoid using pillar if you dont want to back
Oddly champion.gg thinks that Trundle does well vs Nasus, Garen, Shen, and Irelia, and is countered by Gnar, Renekton, Malphite, and Yasuo. Then again it also lists Vladimir on both sides so I don't know how accurate this is.
Why do you think Trundle gets destroyed by Irelia? Also, how does Trundle counter Nasus? I would think that Frozen Heart / Wither would wreck Trundle's DPS.
On September 22 2015 00:07 Alaric wrote: Wait... Titanic's active does bonus damage to towers? That's pretty big. Not sure about the lack of sustain outside of his passive in teamfights, but I assume that since you're not looking to dive it works out 0K.
And I was assuming Darius beats Trundle in trades and because of this can zone him, which makes Trundle sad as he can't farm from afar like Olaf or isn't slippery like Fiora (Olaf prob gets trucked by Darius too, sadness). I probably rely too much on playing aggressive, winning trades and freezing/zoning as ways to win lane and translate it onto the map, so I have issues figuring how Trundle can not fall behind Darius in farm and then rely on his team to take opportunity of his ult and pillar properly.
i actually didnt even think of that, but having titanic to waveclear works wonders since hes always been a terror tower pusher but has bad waveclear so you could see it coming easily. with titanic you clear fast get the tower and get out.
trundle loses to darius until botrk so yea you might get down like 10 cs. you have insane sustain as long as you remember to throw down W when you clear a big wave so you cant get taken out of lane. also darius is super easy to gank with pillar so there's that, I dont like to rely on jungler though.
but yea as soon as you get botrk you can pretty much just run at any melee and kill them easily 1v1.
Do you run into mana issues when you spam W to heal up on a big wave? Also, would Trundle lose hard vs Gnar? Gnar seems like he can get out of Trundle's BS and if he's not tanky it's less important if he's getting 3-4 man flash ults.
yup gnar is feast or famine he either completely counters top lanes or gets destroyed by irelia and the like. ofc there is nothing trundle can do in this mu except sit at tower and farm but its not the end of the world.
No mana issues unless jungler comes for gank, using pillar in lane is really costly early. avoid using pillar if you dont want to back
Oddly champion.gg thinks that Trundle does well vs Nasus, Garen, Shen, and Irelia, and is countered by Gnar, Renekton, Malphite, and Yasuo. Then again it also lists Vladimir on both sides so I don't know how accurate this is.
Why do you think Trundle gets destroyed by Irelia? Also, how does Trundle counter Nasus? I would think that Frozen Heart / Wither would wreck Trundle's DPS.
On September 22 2015 00:07 Alaric wrote: Wait... Titanic's active does bonus damage to towers? That's pretty big. Not sure about the lack of sustain outside of his passive in teamfights, but I assume that since you're not looking to dive it works out 0K.
And I was assuming Darius beats Trundle in trades and because of this can zone him, which makes Trundle sad as he can't farm from afar like Olaf or isn't slippery like Fiora (Olaf prob gets trucked by Darius too, sadness). I probably rely too much on playing aggressive, winning trades and freezing/zoning as ways to win lane and translate it onto the map, so I have issues figuring how Trundle can not fall behind Darius in farm and then rely on his team to take opportunity of his ult and pillar properly.
i actually didnt even think of that, but having titanic to waveclear works wonders since hes always been a terror tower pusher but has bad waveclear so you could see it coming easily. with titanic you clear fast get the tower and get out.
trundle loses to darius until botrk so yea you might get down like 10 cs. you have insane sustain as long as you remember to throw down W when you clear a big wave so you cant get taken out of lane. also darius is super easy to gank with pillar so there's that, I dont like to rely on jungler though.
but yea as soon as you get botrk you can pretty much just run at any melee and kill them easily 1v1.
Do you run into mana issues when you spam W to heal up on a big wave? Also, would Trundle lose hard vs Gnar? Gnar seems like he can get out of Trundle's BS and if he's not tanky it's less important if he's getting 3-4 man flash ults.
yup gnar is feast or famine he either completely counters top lanes or gets destroyed by irelia and the like. ofc there is nothing trundle can do in this mu except sit at tower and farm but its not the end of the world.
No mana issues unless jungler comes for gank, using pillar in lane is really costly early. avoid using pillar if you dont want to back
Oddly champion.gg thinks that Trundle does well vs Nasus, Garen, Shen, and Irelia, and is countered by Gnar, Renekton, Malphite, and Yasuo. Then again it also lists Vladimir on both sides so I don't know how accurate this is.
Why do you think Trundle gets destroyed by Irelia? Also, how does Trundle counter Nasus? I would think that Frozen Heart / Wither would wreck Trundle's DPS.
he doesnt get destroyed by irelia, you just need merc treads to be able to trade like any other immobile bruiser. She will stun, combo you and then walk away until stun is up again. as soon as you have merc/botrk you can bash her face in pretty much
personally my nasus setup beats trundle since I go for damage but the way most nasus play is tank masteries and no threat early. trundle has one of the best lvl 1s. you can sit behind nasus wave from lvl 1 and out trade him easily if they have the tank/cd nasus setup. you will heavily out cs them and then late just ult/pillar them and lol.
I can attest to malphite and gnar being good counters, renek and yasuo is unlikely....
while you can ult malphite, he is an immediate impact champion, meaning once he blows his load he doesnt really care if he dies. so trundle is pretty bad vs him. Then you factor in the atk speed slow that guts him completely in lane
On September 22 2015 00:07 Alaric wrote: Wait... Titanic's active does bonus damage to towers? That's pretty big. Not sure about the lack of sustain outside of his passive in teamfights, but I assume that since you're not looking to dive it works out 0K.
And I was assuming Darius beats Trundle in trades and because of this can zone him, which makes Trundle sad as he can't farm from afar like Olaf or isn't slippery like Fiora (Olaf prob gets trucked by Darius too, sadness). I probably rely too much on playing aggressive, winning trades and freezing/zoning as ways to win lane and translate it onto the map, so I have issues figuring how Trundle can not fall behind Darius in farm and then rely on his team to take opportunity of his ult and pillar properly.
i actually didnt even think of that, but having titanic to waveclear works wonders since hes always been a terror tower pusher but has bad waveclear so you could see it coming easily. with titanic you clear fast get the tower and get out.
trundle loses to darius until botrk so yea you might get down like 10 cs. you have insane sustain as long as you remember to throw down W when you clear a big wave so you cant get taken out of lane. also darius is super easy to gank with pillar so there's that, I dont like to rely on jungler though.
but yea as soon as you get botrk you can pretty much just run at any melee and kill them easily 1v1.
Do you run into mana issues when you spam W to heal up on a big wave? Also, would Trundle lose hard vs Gnar? Gnar seems like he can get out of Trundle's BS and if he's not tanky it's less important if he's getting 3-4 man flash ults.
yup gnar is feast or famine he either completely counters top lanes or gets destroyed by irelia and the like. ofc there is nothing trundle can do in this mu except sit at tower and farm but its not the end of the world.
No mana issues unless jungler comes for gank, using pillar in lane is really costly early. avoid using pillar if you dont want to back
Oddly champion.gg thinks that Trundle does well vs Nasus, Garen, Shen, and Irelia, and is countered by Gnar, Renekton, Malphite, and Yasuo. Then again it also lists Vladimir on both sides so I don't know how accurate this is.
Champion.gg uses their same dumb amalgamated "ranking" system for the counters as it does for anything else you don't sort by win rate. So a champion can be near even and still score high on both sides of the counter/countered list for various reasons. Just sort by win rate instead. It's much more accurate.
On September 22 2015 02:46 Zdrastochye wrote: Top lane really is so skill dependent though. I know you mentioned at high diamond you don't notice many solo kills but then there's people like boxbox (and others like him) who play go for the throat mentality and force you to fight them. It's not a majority of the time, but if you're in one of those lanes you need to outplay them or beg for ganks.
well champs like that are really bad vs trundle so usually they are smart enough to sit back. I do encounter bad rivens occasionally and thats usually a 20 minute win when they are 3 levels down protip dont fight trundle as riven 1v1
but to answer your question the more common tops in solo q can be out played by riven. darius is probably the only one that a braindead could beat riven regardless
On September 22 2015 00:07 Alaric wrote: Wait... Titanic's active does bonus damage to towers? That's pretty big. .
Most bonus damage on auto attacks hits towers so long as it's a one time proc. Sheen items too. TF cards do. I think nasus q stacks do. The only things that don't are things that apply to every auto attack like teemo e, and I think Nashors on-hit
trundle,vayne,jax all don't do extra dmg on towers with their procs. It isn't that simple.
tbh riven is one of those champs where it comes down to how good riven is rather than anything else
I can beat Riven as Maokai is they go onto me and I don't get bullshat with that thing where if she's Qing and you point-blank her sometimes she doesn't get cc'd and goes straight through it. The bigger issue is Arcane Smash's cd because you win trades by stopping her when she tries to go in, and either manfight her (if she used several Qs to reach you) or wait a bit/bait a shield when you know her Q's on cd or about to be, then go in with W.
You can't trade if you're far from your tower because her dashes' cooldowns will be back before your Q and she'll combo you twice while you only get a single rotation, plus it's Riven (aka she outruns you bootless when you've got boots2 if your base MS is low) so you won't escape. Mostly because of that, I know a smart Riven (doesn't need good mechanics) would win that match-up 1v1 100%, luckily for me most Riven are dumb (and I still lose when they have decent mechanics because outplay the fuck out of them and it won't matter, they're playing Riven).
On September 22 2015 00:07 Alaric wrote: Wait... Titanic's active does bonus damage to towers? That's pretty big. .
Most bonus damage on auto attacks hits towers so long as it's a one time proc. Sheen items too. TF cards do. I think nasus q stacks do. The only things that don't are things that apply to every auto attack like teemo e, and I think Nashors on-hit
Rengar's Q doesn't (because he destroyed towers ridiculously fast with aa-Q-empQ and the stacked AS buffs), Jax's W doesn't, I'm not sure if Xin's Q does, Trundle's Q doesn't, etc. A bunch of abilities can be used as auto-resets on towers but won't apply their bonus damage nor consume the buff.
On September 22 2015 00:07 Alaric wrote: Wait... Titanic's active does bonus damage to towers? That's pretty big. .
Most bonus damage on auto attacks hits towers so long as it's a one time proc. Sheen items too. TF cards do. I think nasus q stacks do. The only things that don't are things that apply to every auto attack like teemo e, and I think Nashors on-hit
trundle,vayne,jax all don't do extra dmg on towers with their procs. It isn't that simple.
tbh riven is one of those champs where it comes down to how good riven is rather than anything else
None of those abilities are explicitly bonus damage on hit (but rather on-attack)I think but yea it does get wonky. Rivens isn't an ability though so not expecting that to
No it is just incredibly inconsistent. There is no logic to it. Why does diana passive proc on towers but caitlyn's doesnt? Or how garen can but renekton can't.
also i lied it works on trundle for some reason I remembered it didnt rip
or why does akali passive deal damage to towers lol
On September 22 2015 03:27 Sufficiency wrote: Trundle R's Nasus and Nasus dies in a teamfight, pretty much.
Pillar also screws with immobile champions a lot. If Nasus overcommits and goes too far, you ult Nasus and trap him with pillar and he just dies. If your squishy is getting brutalized, put up a pillar between them and it stalls Nasus for a quite a while.
I'm trying to figure out itembuild paths for jungle Jax. Champion.gg is not very helpful since apparently everybody just buys what the shop suggests and I have no idea how accurate that is. Plus, thinking for myself is fun!
In the past, the thing to do on Jax always seemed like 2 DPS items and 3 defense items (and Mercs).
I would reaaaaaaaaaaally love some help with this...
Chilling Smite seems a given
I'm gold, so there is a lot lot lot of catching and skirmishes going on, Jax is already strong in that situations and I want to be able to stick to someone.
Maybe Challenging Smite is better when I rise in ranks and teamfights become more prevalent.
Devourer or Cinderhulk
Devourer would be one of the DPS items, Cinderhulk one of the defensive items.
I want to get Devourer when nobody gets super fucked before my level 6 and solo dragon.
I want to get Cinderhulk when shit goes south and/or I am performing badly before level 6.
Triforce first real item
Everybody rushes BortK, but Triforce is just a bit more expensive and has a really good build path, plus I already have Chilling Smite.
Triforce bursts better.
Triforce gives me a bit defensive via my ult.
I have no sustain then, but I won't take much damage from camps anyway because LOLWTF damage.
If Cinderhulk, what second DPS item?
BotrK: Seems core on every single Jax, but I would get it pretty late and I don't get to do much in terms of teamfight AA, plus I can already smite to slow.
Hextech Gunblade: Oldschool cool Jax item. Really great in duels/skirmishes due to the passive. Gives me decent MR via my ultimate. NO ATTACKSPEED THOUGH! Does the spellvamp proc on my ultimates passive damage? Nice sustain nevertheless.
What first armor item?
How does having Cinderhulk change the value of HP? Does it become even better or can I round out other areas (like with FH) because I already got extra HP?
Randuins: Armor and HP. Passive feels meh, I SHOULDN'T be taking that much damage from the ADC, ideally they would die before it becomes a problem for me. Active is okay I guess, for teamfight CC.
Dead Mans Plate: Armor and HP. I run around a lot, and it gives damage and slows. No idea what to make of this, but it seems okay?
Frozen Heart: Armor and Mana and CDR. Yes please. I need all of that. Downside: No HP!!!
Thornmail: No idea, but I guess the combat stats the other items give are better...
Sunfire Cape (if Devourer): I don't really need it for splitpushing or farming. No idea the value of the damage in fights though.
What MR item?
Banshees Veil vs Spirit Visage: It seems to me like Banshees it the overall better choice. The shield is awesome, it has HP, it has MR, whats not to love. Spirit Visage on the other hand has CDR, and a heal increase in case I go Cinderhulk and get one of the sustaining DPS items.
Locket of the Iron Solari: Everyone loves the Aegis, it is cheap, Locket has great utility. It has a little CDR, a little HP and a little MR.
What third defensive item?
Guardian Angel: Revive passive. Should be decent when I am carrying.
Zz'rot Portal: Lots of resistances and can defend/push a lane on its own.
Thornmail, Frozen Heart, Randuins, Dead Mans Plate: No idea bruh, same question as first armor item...
Warmogs: More HP seems good? But I have so low armor...
So yeah I have no real idea what is good on Jax at what point of the game and how to actually decide. Please help =(
I'd argue that Sterak's good on him if you build Triforce. Having sustain on Devourer is pretty darn strong because it applies BotRK's passive more often, which iirc you lifesteal off of. The dueling potential on anyone with devourer an sustain (hi Aatrox) is absurd because of how durable it makes you. But no teamfight burst.
Please use the Champion specific threads in the Strategy section. Thanks!
On September 16 2015 04:22 NeoIllusions wrote: Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread. While posting standards tend to be rather lax in this thread, pointless spam will not be tolerated.
Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions.
On September 16 2015 04:22 NeoIllusions wrote: Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread. While posting standards tend to be rather lax in this thread, pointless spam will not be tolerated.
Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions.
The biggest problem with the champion threads is that most of them are from 2013 and are irrelevant today.
On September 22 2015 21:08 mordek wrote: Please use the Champion specific threads in the Strategy section. Thanks!
On September 16 2015 04:22 NeoIllusions wrote: Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread. While posting standards tend to be rather lax in this thread, pointless spam will not be tolerated.
Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions.
The biggest problem with the champion threads is that most of them are from 2013 and are irrelevant today.
Thanks to peeps encouraging the use of Champion threads yo.
It doesn't really matter that the OP of those threads are outdated. Again, ideally, it would be nice if champion specific discussion were done in their champion thread, it obviously flows better than in GD, especially with such a broad question like "How do I build Jungle Jax?".
So does it matter for champion threads if the last post is insanely old? I have some support Nautlius questions but the last post in his champion thread was in Feb. 2013.
On September 23 2015 02:51 InfSunday wrote: So does it matter for champion threads if the last post is insanely old? I have some support Nautlius questions but the last post in his champion thread was in Feb. 2013.
On September 22 2015 21:08 mordek wrote: Please use the Champion specific threads in the Strategy section. Thanks!
On September 16 2015 04:22 NeoIllusions wrote: Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread. While posting standards tend to be rather lax in this thread, pointless spam will not be tolerated.
Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions.
The biggest problem with the champion threads is that most of them are from 2013 and are irrelevant today.
Than make a new one.
Well, I mean, I could write a Twitch guide with a bunch of little tricks and such in it, but it wouldn't be very useful as an overall guide because I'm Silver 3 and don't play enough anymore to have a good idea of match ups and such. In the current structure where the OP has to be a guide (which in turn requires a semi-high level player) it's not particularly accessible for a lot of people.
There is pretty much a thread for every champion in the strategy forum. While none of them except a handful are up to date with the current patch, they're still the appropriate place for discussion. We're pushing to get our users to post in the appropriate threads whenever possible and not have GD turn into megathreads, etc.
On September 22 2015 21:08 mordek wrote: Please use the Champion specific threads in the Strategy section. Thanks!
On September 16 2015 04:22 NeoIllusions wrote: Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread. While posting standards tend to be rather lax in this thread, pointless spam will not be tolerated.
Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions.
The biggest problem with the champion threads is that most of them are from 2013 and are irrelevant today.
Than make a new one.
Well, I mean, I could write a Twitch guide with a bunch of little tricks and such in it, but it wouldn't be very useful as an overall guide because I'm Silver 3 and don't play enough anymore to have a good idea of match ups and such. In the current structure where the OP has to be a guide (which in turn requires a semi-high level player) it's not particularly accessible for a lot of people.
Guide OPs don't need to be super detailed 100% Challenger level special taktics level. All they need to be is just a generic "Yo, this is what this champion does, this is generally how you want to build/rune/mastery." The job of a guide OP isn't to be top 5 X on their server, but to keep the guide updated with relevant information and be open to constructive criticism of old or bad information.
Speaking of which, my Sej guide needs help bad. XD
When I started league in s2 TL was the first place I looked for guides since I already used the website. Not knowing anything about league even the most basic things like runes/masteries/skills helped a lot. Actually getting the champ threads active is a great idea.
And then there are holy pieces of work such as this and this. Get on Atrioc's level.
On September 23 2015 05:19 krndandaman wrote: As epic as those guides were it's actually a double edged sword since it's so much harder to keep updated/relevant. Imagine updating all those pictures over and over (unless it's not as hard as I imagine it to be?). Sadly both those guides are quite out of date.
that fizz guide was just ridiculous
You could probably save a copy of your background imagery with a large blank white box in your images (maybe give it a nice frame) that gives you enough space to c/p item images and such into so that updating becomes less difficult.
Personally I don't know enough about coding to understand how the background image heavy posts on TL don't just get broken by different resolutions, so I could never implement something like that to begin with.
On September 23 2015 04:55 JonnyLaw wrote: When I started league in s2 TL was the first place I looked for guides since I already used the website. Not knowing anything about league even the most basic things like runes/masteries/skills helped a lot. Actually getting the champ threads active is a great idea.
And then there are holy pieces of work such as this and this. Get on Atrioc's level.
The problem with that is you need either staff privileges or staff permission(I've heard?) to be able to use that kind of formatting. Obviously, that is added on top of needing to know what you're doing.
On September 23 2015 04:55 JonnyLaw wrote: When I started league in s2 TL was the first place I looked for guides since I already used the website. Not knowing anything about league even the most basic things like runes/masteries/skills helped a lot. Actually getting the champ threads active is a great idea.
And then there are holy pieces of work such as this and this. Get on Atrioc's level.
The problem with that is you need either staff privileges or staff permission(I've heard?) to be able to use that kind of formatting. Obviously, that is added on top of needing to know what you're doing.
Atrioc had a ton of help on the staff side in making those guides (as far as forum formatting goes), and I THINK he might have even gotten special "formatting permissions" for that thing. It was quite an endeavor.
On September 23 2015 04:55 JonnyLaw wrote: When I started league in s2 TL was the first place I looked for guides since I already used the website. Not knowing anything about league even the most basic things like runes/masteries/skills helped a lot. Actually getting the champ threads active is a great idea.
And then there are holy pieces of work such as this and this. Get on Atrioc's level.
The problem with that is you need either staff privileges or staff permission(I've heard?) to be able to use that kind of formatting. Obviously, that is added on top of needing to know what you're doing.
Atrioc had a ton of help on the staff side in making those guides (as far as forum formatting goes), and I THINK he might have even gotten special "formatting permissions" for that thing. It was quite an endeavor.
That being said, if you're interested....
I lost my passion for that a long time ago. If I'm not going to put in the work on standard formatting to have any of my guides be near Ketara's Lux guide, it would be pointless to ask for permissions.
I asked for coding permissions for the Lux guide and was told no.
They can't give you permissions in just one thread they have to do it for the entire forum, so.
I'll look at the Lulu guide a little later. Did a brief glance, it looked fine.
You guys have to remember when making guides that the more complicated and flashy the guide is the harder it is to update. You need to really think about how much time you want to spend maintaining an OP.
The new Champ Select flow is now: 1) Players can invite friends into a Lobby. 2) Each player is required to select at least 2 Positions (such as Top/Mid, or Mid/Jungle). On average, Ranked players only play 2.2 positions, so we wanted to start simple with a Pick-2 design, but have some backups like rank-sorting all 5 positions if there are queue time issues. We also have designs to incentivize mastering all positions in the future. 3) There's a new position called "Fill." 4) We're currently asking Duo Queues to cover at least 3 unique positions, to further improve queue times. Duo Queues will still have a higher chance of getting the exact 2 positions they want, but it is not 100% guaranteed. 5) Once you've chosen your positions, we match you into a full team and you enter Champion Select. 6) We've made some changes to how drafting works; however, we'll be talking more about this in a future design blog. 7) During Champ Select, you can still negotiate with your teammates to lane swap or trade champs if you want a more favorable match-up just like Champ Select today. 8) Once drafting is done, your team enters the game.
Ranked in Season 6/preseason I assume. I wonder how it will work in practice, will being a fill main result in me just playing the least popular role in 99% games?
The new Champ Select flow is now: 1) Players can invite friends into a Lobby. 2) Each player is required to select at least 2 Positions (such as Top/Mid, or Mid/Jungle). On average, Ranked players only play 2.2 positions, so we wanted to start simple with a Pick-2 design, but have some backups like rank-sorting all 5 positions if there are queue time issues. We also have designs to incentivize mastering all positions in the future. 3) There's a new position called "Fill." 4) We're currently asking Duo Queues to cover at least 3 unique positions, to further improve queue times. Duo Queues will still have a higher chance of getting the exact 2 positions they want, but it is not 100% guaranteed. 5) Once you've chosen your positions, we match you into a full team and you enter Champion Select. 6) We've made some changes to how drafting works; however, we'll be talking more about this in a future design blog. 7) During Champ Select, you can still negotiate with your teammates to lane swap or trade champs if you want a more favorable match-up just like Champ Select today. 8) Once drafting is done, your team enters the game.
Ranked in Season 6/preseason I assume. I wonder how it will work in practice, will being a fill main result in me just playing the least popular role in 99% games?
Yup. You'll play a lot of support but your queues will be quicker than the massive amount of people queuing up for top/mid.
The new Champ Select flow is now: 1) Players can invite friends into a Lobby. 2) Each player is required to select at least 2 Positions (such as Top/Mid, or Mid/Jungle). On average, Ranked players only play 2.2 positions, so we wanted to start simple with a Pick-2 design, but have some backups like rank-sorting all 5 positions if there are queue time issues. We also have designs to incentivize mastering all positions in the future. 3) There's a new position called "Fill." 4) We're currently asking Duo Queues to cover at least 3 unique positions, to further improve queue times. Duo Queues will still have a higher chance of getting the exact 2 positions they want, but it is not 100% guaranteed. 5) Once you've chosen your positions, we match you into a full team and you enter Champion Select. 6) We've made some changes to how drafting works; however, we'll be talking more about this in a future design blog. 7) During Champ Select, you can still negotiate with your teammates to lane swap or trade champs if you want a more favorable match-up just like Champ Select today. 8) Once drafting is done, your team enters the game.
Ranked in Season 6/preseason I assume. I wonder how it will work in practice, will being a fill main result in me just playing the least popular role in 99% games?
I wonder if they'll have something behind the scene that tracks what you've played as. I'm going to use myself as an example. I largely play Jungle and Support. I never mention support in chat because if I do I'll just end up as it anyway. I'm curious if instead of constantly popping support that after a certain amount of time it will force me jungle every now and then.
Derp, maybe I should just read the reddit comments.
On average, Ranked players only play 2.2 positions
There is no way this is true. Then again, it's not clear at all what he actually means, so who knows.
The average doesn't fit into a while #. If somebody like me plays Jungle/Support and another player plays Top/Jungle/Mid, we play an average of 2.5 positions.
On September 23 2015 11:55 Sufficiency wrote: Lyte said:
On average, Ranked players only play 2.2 positions
There is no way this is true. Then again, it's not clear at all what he actually means, so who knows.
The average doesn't fit into a while #. If somebody like me plays Jungle/Support and another player plays Top/Jungle/Mid, we play an average of 2.5 positions.
The problem is what he means by "play 2.2 positions".
What does he mean by "play X position"? If I am forced to play top in one game out of one hundred (even though I clearly prefer jungle), am I considered to have played the top position?
On September 23 2015 11:55 Sufficiency wrote: Lyte said:
On average, Ranked players only play 2.2 positions
There is no way this is true. Then again, it's not clear at all what he actually means, so who knows.
The average doesn't fit into a while #. If somebody like me plays Jungle/Support and another player plays Top/Jungle/Mid, we play an average of 2.5 positions.
The problem is what he means by "play 2.2 positions".
What does he mean by "play X position"? If I am forced to play top in one game out of one hundred (even though I clearly prefer jungle), am I considered to have played the top position?
They probably look at it and go "This guy plays 40% jungle, 30% support, 15% top, 10% AD, and 5% mid. Probably safe to say he plays 2 positions."
Yea, i have no idea how to construct a statistic which is going to tell you your average number of roles per 5 games or what not
Edit: Only thing i could think of would be Sum(1 if >20%, %/20% if below 20%)
So if you played precisely 20% of your games in each role you would play 5 roles. On the other hand, the only way to get 2.2 roles out of that is if most players played two main roles for 96% of their games.
On September 23 2015 12:15 Goumindong wrote: Yea, i have no idea how to construct a statistic which is going to tell you your average number of roles per 5 games or what not
Here's one way:
Parse pregame chatlogs and see how many roles on average a person calls.
On September 23 2015 12:15 Goumindong wrote: Yea, i have no idea how to construct a statistic which is going to tell you your average number of roles per 5 games or what not
Here's one way:
Parse pregame chatlogs and see how many roles on average a person calls.
But if they looked at pregame chat they would find the actually problematic players as opposed to the ones who call feeders "shit" and say "gg ez".
On September 23 2015 12:15 Goumindong wrote: Yea, i have no idea how to construct a statistic which is going to tell you your average number of roles per 5 games or what not
Where are you getting /5 games from?
I'm sure somewhere Riot has a log of all the ranked games played this season. Do they have Teleport? Probably a top laner. Smite? Probably a jungler. Playing an ADC? Probably AS. Have a support item? Probably support. You can make very general assumptions to narrow down the most possible position played in that game without even having to look at full rosters. Yes, I realized that I didn't list anything for Mid, but that falls under process of elimination.
On September 23 2015 12:15 Goumindong wrote: Yea, i have no idea how to construct a statistic which is going to tell you your average number of roles per 5 games or what not
Where are you getting /5 games from?
I'm sure somewhere Riot has a log of all the ranked games played this season. Do they have Teleport? Probably a top laner. Smite? Probably a jungler. Playing an ADC? Probably AS. Have a support item? Probably support. You can make very general assumptions to narrow down the most possible position played in that game without even having to look at full rosters. Yes, I realized that I didn't list anything for Mid, but that falls under process of elimination.
That part is easy. I have all of those in my own database.
The problem is how Lyte defines a player to "play position X". If I played top Vladimir once because I was forced to, am I a top lane player now?
Or is it based on self-reports like Ketara suggested? By the way I highly doubt that's what they did because that's really complicated.
On September 23 2015 12:15 Goumindong wrote: Yea, i have no idea how to construct a statistic which is going to tell you your average number of roles per 5 games or what not
Where are you getting /5 games from?
I'm sure somewhere Riot has a log of all the ranked games played this season. Do they have Teleport? Probably a top laner. Smite? Probably a jungler. Playing an ADC? Probably AS. Have a support item? Probably support. You can make very general assumptions to narrow down the most possible position played in that game without even having to look at full rosters. Yes, I realized that I didn't list anything for Mid, but that falls under process of elimination.
That part is easy. I have all of those in my own database.
The problem is how Lyte defines a player to "play position X". If I played top Vladimir once because I was forced to, am I a top lane player now?
Or is it based on self-reports like Ketara suggested? By the way I highly doubt that's what they did because that's really complicated.
On September 23 2015 11:55 Sufficiency wrote: Lyte said:
On average, Ranked players only play 2.2 positions
There is no way this is true. Then again, it's not clear at all what he actually means, so who knows.
The average doesn't fit into a while #. If somebody like me plays Jungle/Support and another player plays Top/Jungle/Mid, we play an average of 2.5 positions.
The problem is what he means by "play 2.2 positions".
What does he mean by "play X position"? If I am forced to play top in one game out of one hundred (even though I clearly prefer jungle), am I considered to have played the top position?
They probably look at it and go "This guy plays 40% jungle, 30% support, 15% top, 10% AD, and 5% mid. Probably safe to say he plays 2 positions."
On September 23 2015 12:15 Goumindong wrote: Yea, i have no idea how to construct a statistic which is going to tell you your average number of roles per 5 games or what not
Where are you getting /5 games from?
I'm sure somewhere Riot has a log of all the ranked games played this season. Do they have Teleport? Probably a top laner. Smite? Probably a jungler. Playing an ADC? Probably AS. Have a support item? Probably support. You can make very general assumptions to narrow down the most possible position played in that game without even having to look at full rosters. Yes, I realized that I didn't list anything for Mid, but that falls under process of elimination.
That part is easy. I have all of those in my own database.
The problem is how Lyte defines a player to "play position X". If I played top Vladimir once because I was forced to, am I a top lane player now?
Or is it based on self-reports like Ketara suggested? By the way I highly doubt that's what they did because that's really complicated.
On September 23 2015 11:55 Sufficiency wrote: Lyte said:
On average, Ranked players only play 2.2 positions
There is no way this is true. Then again, it's not clear at all what he actually means, so who knows.
The average doesn't fit into a while #. If somebody like me plays Jungle/Support and another player plays Top/Jungle/Mid, we play an average of 2.5 positions.
The problem is what he means by "play 2.2 positions".
What does he mean by "play X position"? If I am forced to play top in one game out of one hundred (even though I clearly prefer jungle), am I considered to have played the top position?
They probably look at it and go "This guy plays 40% jungle, 30% support, 15% top, 10% AD, and 5% mid. Probably safe to say he plays 2 positions."
So you are saying I can name my own cutoff (you set it at 30%, for example) to suit my own needs? What is so magical about 30%?
Most players I would imagine, if they are first pick, play the same role every time.
It seems to me like it would be easy to use data from champ select to figure out what roles a person is likely to prefer to play, and then average that out amongst the while population.
On September 23 2015 12:30 Ketara wrote: Most players I would imagine, if they are first pick, play the same role every time.
It seems to me like it would be easy to use data from champ select to figure out what roles a person is likely to prefer to play, and then average that out amongst the while population.
I have the data. Do you want to work on it and report back?
On September 23 2015 12:15 Goumindong wrote: Yea, i have no idea how to construct a statistic which is going to tell you your average number of roles per 5 games or what not
Where are you getting /5 games from?
I'm sure somewhere Riot has a log of all the ranked games played this season. Do they have Teleport? Probably a top laner. Smite? Probably a jungler. Playing an ADC? Probably AS. Have a support item? Probably support. You can make very general assumptions to narrow down the most possible position played in that game without even having to look at full rosters. Yes, I realized that I didn't list anything for Mid, but that falls under process of elimination.
That part is easy. I have all of those in my own database.
The problem is how Lyte defines a player to "play position X". If I played top Vladimir once because I was forced to, am I a top lane player now?
Or is it based on self-reports like Ketara suggested? By the way I highly doubt that's what they did because that's really complicated.
On September 23 2015 12:13 Gahlo wrote:
On September 23 2015 12:06 Sufficiency wrote:
On September 23 2015 11:58 Gahlo wrote:
On September 23 2015 11:55 Sufficiency wrote: Lyte said:
On average, Ranked players only play 2.2 positions
There is no way this is true. Then again, it's not clear at all what he actually means, so who knows.
The average doesn't fit into a while #. If somebody like me plays Jungle/Support and another player plays Top/Jungle/Mid, we play an average of 2.5 positions.
The problem is what he means by "play 2.2 positions".
What does he mean by "play X position"? If I am forced to play top in one game out of one hundred (even though I clearly prefer jungle), am I considered to have played the top position?
They probably look at it and go "This guy plays 40% jungle, 30% support, 15% top, 10% AD, and 5% mid. Probably safe to say he plays 2 positions."
So you are saying I can name my own cutoff (you set it at 30%, for example) to suit my own needs? What is so magical about 30%?
I made up the position splits off the top of my head for a nonexistent player. I'd think if they were a top/jungle/support player they'd have more top games. Either way, like I said, Riot probably has all the games played this season to look at and find patterns to crunch #s on that provides a pretty clear cutoff depending on how many positions a player seems to play.
On September 23 2015 12:15 Goumindong wrote: Yea, i have no idea how to construct a statistic which is going to tell you your average number of roles per 5 games or what not
Where are you getting /5 games from?
I'm sure somewhere Riot has a log of all the ranked games played this season. Do they have Teleport? Probably a top laner. Smite? Probably a jungler. Playing an ADC? Probably AS. Have a support item? Probably support. You can make very general assumptions to narrow down the most possible position played in that game without even having to look at full rosters. Yes, I realized that I didn't list anything for Mid, but that falls under process of elimination.
That part is easy. I have all of those in my own database.
The problem is how Lyte defines a player to "play position X". If I played top Vladimir once because I was forced to, am I a top lane player now?
Or is it based on self-reports like Ketara suggested? By the way I highly doubt that's what they did because that's really complicated.
On September 23 2015 12:13 Gahlo wrote:
On September 23 2015 12:06 Sufficiency wrote:
On September 23 2015 11:58 Gahlo wrote:
On September 23 2015 11:55 Sufficiency wrote: Lyte said:
On average, Ranked players only play 2.2 positions
There is no way this is true. Then again, it's not clear at all what he actually means, so who knows.
The average doesn't fit into a while #. If somebody like me plays Jungle/Support and another player plays Top/Jungle/Mid, we play an average of 2.5 positions.
The problem is what he means by "play 2.2 positions".
What does he mean by "play X position"? If I am forced to play top in one game out of one hundred (even though I clearly prefer jungle), am I considered to have played the top position?
They probably look at it and go "This guy plays 40% jungle, 30% support, 15% top, 10% AD, and 5% mid. Probably safe to say he plays 2 positions."
So you are saying I can name my own cutoff (you set it at 30%, for example) to suit my own needs? What is so magical about 30%?
I made up the position splits off the top of my head for a nonexistent player. I'd think if they were a top/jungle/support player they'd have more top games. Either way, like I said, Riot probably has all the games played this season to look at and find patterns to crunch #s on that provides a pretty clear cutoff depending on how many positions a player seems to play.
Or I can invent a number to fit my narrative, like what you did with the 30%.
The fact of the matter is, "2.2 positions" is problematic. If this is the kind of evidence-based decision making that Riot engages in, it's terrible.
On September 23 2015 12:30 Ketara wrote: Most players I would imagine, if they are first pick, play the same role every time.
It seems to me like it would be easy to use data from champ select to figure out what roles a person is likely to prefer to play, and then average that out amongst the while population.
I have the data. Do you want to work on it and report back?
I am on a train in Myanmar going through a war zone at the moment, sorry.
On September 23 2015 12:15 Goumindong wrote: Yea, i have no idea how to construct a statistic which is going to tell you your average number of roles per 5 games or what not
Where are you getting /5 games from?
I'm sure somewhere Riot has a log of all the ranked games played this season. Do they have Teleport? Probably a top laner. Smite? Probably a jungler. Playing an ADC? Probably AS. Have a support item? Probably support. You can make very general assumptions to narrow down the most possible position played in that game without even having to look at full rosters. Yes, I realized that I didn't list anything for Mid, but that falls under process of elimination.
That part is easy. I have all of those in my own database.
The problem is how Lyte defines a player to "play position X". If I played top Vladimir once because I was forced to, am I a top lane player now?
Or is it based on self-reports like Ketara suggested? By the way I highly doubt that's what they did because that's really complicated.
On September 23 2015 12:13 Gahlo wrote:
On September 23 2015 12:06 Sufficiency wrote:
On September 23 2015 11:58 Gahlo wrote:
On September 23 2015 11:55 Sufficiency wrote: Lyte said:
On average, Ranked players only play 2.2 positions
There is no way this is true. Then again, it's not clear at all what he actually means, so who knows.
The average doesn't fit into a while #. If somebody like me plays Jungle/Support and another player plays Top/Jungle/Mid, we play an average of 2.5 positions.
The problem is what he means by "play 2.2 positions".
What does he mean by "play X position"? If I am forced to play top in one game out of one hundred (even though I clearly prefer jungle), am I considered to have played the top position?
They probably look at it and go "This guy plays 40% jungle, 30% support, 15% top, 10% AD, and 5% mid. Probably safe to say he plays 2 positions."
So you are saying I can name my own cutoff (you set it at 30%, for example) to suit my own needs? What is so magical about 30%?
I made up the position splits off the top of my head for a nonexistent player. I'd think if they were a top/jungle/support player they'd have more top games. Either way, like I said, Riot probably has all the games played this season to look at and find patterns to crunch #s on that provides a pretty clear cutoff depending on how many positions a player seems to play.
Or I can invent a number to fit my narrative, like what you did with the 30%.
The fact of the matter is, "2.2 positions" is problematic. If this is the kind of evidence-based decision making that Riot engages in, it's terrible.
Fuck it, I'm done. I can't believe you're this dense. Have fun figuring it out with your head that far up your ass.
On September 23 2015 12:30 Ketara wrote: Most players I would imagine, if they are first pick, play the same role every time.
It seems to me like it would be easy to use data from champ select to figure out what roles a person is likely to prefer to play, and then average that out amongst the while population.
If I'm first pick I usually go jungle. However I mostly play top. I just don't really enjoy first picking top.
On September 23 2015 12:59 Ketara wrote: Yeah I'm not really understanding the senseless excuse to bash Riot out of sufficiency, here.
It's not a senseless bash.
I was merely pointing out the illogical part of Lyte's answer. Then for some reason Gahlo believes he can solve the problem by setting a random 30% cut off, which is completely arbitrary and chosen to simply fit his narrative. Now he calls me an ass for no reason.
On September 23 2015 13:03 Caiada wrote: Complaining about completely arbitrarily picked numbers and implying Riot is doing the same sure is a thing.
That's a fair point, which is why I am taking out the data and try to figure out how Riot is arriving at this magical 2.2.
No, I do not believe Lyte just randomly made it up. Yes, I do think the number is problematic in a variety of different ways - hopefully this is obvious.
On September 23 2015 12:30 Ketara wrote: Most players I would imagine, if they are first pick, play the same role every time.
It seems to me like it would be easy to use data from champ select to figure out what roles a person is likely to prefer to play, and then average that out amongst the while population.
Average doesn't work because its all the same value. And roles aren't cardinal so there isn't a way to make any sense of an average.
Role 1% + Role 2% + so on so forth = 1 trivially. The "average" of roles you play sums to one for the same reason. You have to either play multiple roles per game, or mess around with how you count, in order to get values that aren't 1.
Your posting has the tendency to really bother people. You act like you're so much smarter than everyone while at the same time rarely doing much to actually improve whatever conversation youre a part of.
You know what Lyte is trying to say. Based off common sense it's completely reasonable. But you're taking issue with the lack of detail in the statement, then using that lack of detail to insert your own narrative that it's problematic, impossible, terrible or whatever, as if there's no possible way Riot could have more data than you, better statisticians and analysts than you, or more manpower and time than you to come to these conclusions.
Then when we are like hey, his statement seems reasonable and plausible, you attack us because we don't have the data or whatever. You make a personal attack against me that's ridiculous and petty, and rather than report you for it I just make a joke and shrug it off, but I can definitely see why Gahlo is angry.
That doesn't mean his post is warranted, but the position he's coming from is perfectly reasonable.
On September 23 2015 13:10 Ketara wrote: It's not no reason.
Your posting has the tendency to really bother people. You act like you're so much smarter than everyone while at the same time rarely doing much to actually improve whatever conversation youre a part of.
You know what Lyte is trying to say. Based off common sense it's completely reasonable. But you're taking issue with the lack of detail in the statement, then using that lack of detail to insert your own narrative that it's problematic, impossible, terrible or whatever, as if there's no possible way Riot could have more data than you, better statisticians and analysts than you, or more manpower and time than you to come to these conclusions.
Then when we are like hey, his statement seems reasonable and plausible, you attack us because we don't have the data or whatever. You make a personal attack against me that's ridiculous and petty, and rather than report you for it I just make a joke and shrug it off, but I can definitely see why Gahlo is angry.
That doesn't mean his post is warranted, but the position he's coming from is perfectly reasonable.
Yes, I do have a lot of data stored. No, I have not tried to use it to justify my argument or even remotely analyzed it. I am actually not that interested. I also don't have the time.
If you think I "personally attacked you" in a way that is "ridiculous and petty" because I asked if you want to analyze the data, you are sadly mistaken. I am just curious how someone else will approach the problem. Sorry if you think I was being passive aggressive, that was not my intention. I apologize if I offended you.
Like I have said, Riot has misused their statistics in the past. I have already mentioned in a previous post that one of the games' tips is something like "XX% of the players who follows the Summoners' Code wins YY% more games" or along that line, which you can see the similar kind of problems.
I would imagine that they put much more work into stuff like that 2.2 figure than they do in champ select tips.
Can you really tell me that if it was your paid job to figure out how many roles people played on average, you had access to ALL of Riots game data (including things like chat logs and reports that you might not currently have) and had weeks to solve this problem, that it would be impossible?
On September 23 2015 13:25 Ketara wrote: I would imagine that they put much more work into stuff like that 2.2 figure than they do in champ select tips.
Can you really tell me that if it was your paid job to figure out how many roles people played on average, you had access to ALL of Riots game data (including things like chat logs and reports that you might not currently have) and had weeks to solve this problem, that it would be impossible?
Would it even be difficult?
A help string on the client that is frequently displayed requires far more vigour than a number that is on a AskFM post.
Now, for your question as to whether or not the problem can be solved - yes, if you ask it that way. In fact most real life problems can be solved by throwing resources and time onto it.
Would the problem be difficult though? It could be difficult - depending on what underlying assumptions are taken and what Lyte means by "Player X plays Role Y"
On September 23 2015 13:25 Ketara wrote: I would imagine that they put much more work into stuff like that 2.2 figure than they do in champ select tips.
Can you really tell me that if it was your paid job to figure out how many roles people played on average, you had access to ALL of Riots game data (including things like chat logs and reports that you might not currently have) and had weeks to solve this problem, that it would be impossible?
Would it even be difficult?
Only if you are riot, and stubbornly cling to your assumptions regardless of evidence .
Aren't there already formulas to calculate what would be a statistically significant difference between certain percentages of gameplay in a certain role? + Show Spoiler +
I mean, if you have someone who plays ever role equally, that's 20/20/20/20/20% and he would play 5 roles. It becomes alot harder for someone who plays 30/15/20/15/20 or someone with even less elegant numbers. But I guess there must be some cutoff. You can even go case by case, add all the ones that vary within a certain range, let's take previous example, which could become 30[+-3]/15[+-3]... and come up with a cutoff that could be relevant. Also, different groups with different percentages would get a different deviation. Then after calculating howmany roles each group plays, you can simply go for a mean calculation. The 2.2 roles isn't really that problematic in that way imo.
Another maybe statistical intriguing question is: what kind of duo has the highest win%; is it the duo's bot? duo's jungle/mid? random roledivision?
I actually agree it would be interesting to know what data/formula was used to arrive at that conclusion, however if it is true that this quote comes from ask.fm, I'm not sure why it's surprising he was brief. I feel like I personally am a problem if this was done statistically. I am a firm believer that my highest chance to win is to keep my team happy and thus I tend to be a gaping vagina in champion select. I can tell you without even looking that despite being completely comfortable in mid it's probably my least played role in the last 3 years simply because it is so popular.
also if this IS all started from ask.fm, you could uh, use it to ask him the method for this number lol
I dislike that system because I don't really play a fixed role (it depends on patches and generally seasons, Nautilus is my 3rd most played but I moved from mostly jungling in the first half of the season to barely doing it for a few months, and never Naut; now I play a bit of everything but mostly top/support), and it forces me into 2 of them.
Having that flexibility and freedom is something I enjoy, adapting on the fly in champ select ('cause if I select mid and the enemy first picks Leblanc, usually I simply wouldn't call anything even if I felt like playing mid so I'd go somewhere else, but with this system I either have to awkwardly swap role with someone who may be willing, or play my Viktor into LB?). Of course I'm biased since this is my own experience and champ select trolls (or ragers who don't get their call as 4th pick) are a very large minority of my games, but saying they don't want to enforce the meta then pushing this through is (bitterly) laughable.
Then again I'm in the minority when it comes to role flexibility so I guess I can just go and take it up the rear.
Well you can just use the Fill role if you want to play anything? It'll be similar situation to how it works now as it's just luck of the draw if you get the "fill" option you want in the game or not but with this new system you won't have people shouting at each other and if they do it'll be easier to test for trolls I guess.
I don't think it's enforcing the meta really. You'll always have Carries and supports in Mobas that have items/scaling. You'll also always have people filling specific roles in a team so if say the jungler position can change to do something else then that person that selects jungler should be able to do that.
"Fill" is generally "support" (rest of the time it means I'm 2nd or 3rd pick, people called stuff, so I'm just asking the last pick if he prefers top or jungle ), and would potentially leave me as AD (best way to drop back to Gold IV and beyond), it's different from adapting on the fly. Granted, my reasoning applies wrt my champ pool rather than positions (see example: more "nope, not gonna Viktor into LB" than "nope, not playing mid"), but being able to flex where I go has been valuable in rounding up our comps (now I need to play a decent AP offlaner), and that's something that'd be lost.
Going to lastfm directly, it seems that it's a different queue and not the replacement for ranked like the quote here seemed to imply. As long as I still have a player pool to normally queue with, I guess I won't care all that much... ? It's not like one-trick ponies are too much of a thing here.
Can we put a GD rule to never discuss Riot-provided stats unless they explain how they arrived at them? Because "average player mains 2.2 roles" is almost "players who are 33% less toxic win 70% more games" tier.
Also Alaric I'm a fill main and I only played support in 2 out of my 30 last games. There are a lot of supp mains and also very often if I'm higher pick, only 1-2 people call a role so I can choose whatever I want.
Oh most of my support games I'm actually 2nd/3rd pick and talk with the others, or the others called roles (I'm pretty accomodating), so I just take what's "left" (excluding AD), or I feel more confident (they picked Sion and Graves? Yeah I'd rather go Braum than Maokai).
I don't talk when high in picks but immediatly say I'd rather not play AD if I'm low, so that may tip the odds (if we don't have an AD main we're more likely to have a volunteer anyway, which opens another role. I think I jungle and top more than I support when I'm last pick).
how do you guys manage to fill? assuming that you are playing at your real skill elo. When I was rising from bronze to gold I played more than 30 champs and I was filling as well, however, when I reached platinum I realized that I cannot cope with what I face if I dont lower the roles and champs. I started to play 2 roles (top, jungle) with back up support (and I have been support main for an year in the past) to be able to understand and feel all match ups, timings, map positioning etc. Sometimes when I have to play an off role I feel completely lost, not in terms that I will feed or I won't be able to execute my champ, but in a sense that I miss all the little things that make me win a game. I don;t know when I am mid on what level I can trade favorably for all match ups, how exactly I interact with every possible jungle in mine and other team, what timings are good for roam for farm for invade etc. How do you manage I have no idea:-)
I find that for "fill" the hardest part is the laning phase generally. After the game breaks down knowledge about map movement and objectives kind of passes off, just now what you doing is slightly different. What I've done is essentially created as Slusher would say a "gaping vagina" playstyle when I'm filling in a situation I'm not too familiar with. My goal is just to survive laning phase by going as even as possible with only punishing obviously punishable plays. If I have to I'll sacrifice a bit instead of dying or getting punished myself.
I mean its pretty obvious why they would want to replace the current queue with that team builder thingy. I do not quite get why this is even controversial.
Currently it is a lottery where you hope you will get players with different main roles in your team and not 4 supports or whatever. Win/loss of a game is not just determined by overall player skill but by the role distribution you get in your team. In Korea high Elo players will dodge if the role distribution is not right. Forcing people to dodge can not be a satisfactory permanent solution to the problem.
When more people get their roles overall quality of games should rise because: less trolling, team Elo reflects more accurately a team's chance to win, closer games.
I've got no problems filling to be honest. At D4 the most difficulty I can get is jungling because that's a really specialized role and you don't always understand certain intricacies and even so it's only sometimes a stomp. And then you could also say that it can be the same for other roles aswell. Well, yes and no. Yes in the sense that I don't really know how certain matchups work in top and mid (I specialize in bot) so I won't know when to all in, or when I'm strong or when I'm weak. No in the sense that I know the champion I'm playing and the one I'm playing against well enough to survive, not feed my ass off and get into teamfighting and/or splitpushing mode.
The thing that baffles me the most, and that's even at the highest level, is how lopsided certain games can be. How is it possible that around challenger level, where everyone is supposedly great at the game, you can get crushed in less than 20 minutes? I understand certain people are "gods" and if you have a really stacked team it's probably going to be a stomp, also, because not everyone can play their specialization that can also factor in (one trick ponies, lane specific players, ...) But then you watch people like imaqtpie (or even nightblue3 can do well in laning at times) and you see that lane specialization doesn't really matter that much if you just understand the game. Granted, qt does have a shitton of games under his belt and experience counts for a lot in games like this.
The only thing I don't understand is why didn't they add 5 boxes and you check each one for roles you wanna play and instead you MUST put 2 roles that you want to play. Maybe I want to play only 1 role why will I be forced to play 2?
Because even if you have general understanding of how to play a lane doesn't mean you can keep up with people who specialize in it or a champion. Qt feeds in lane all the time like a retard so that doesn't really help your example.
Sometimes you just have no choice than to forfeit your lane, but you can still lose gracefully. Get pushed under turret and try to cs as best as possible. Them getting an early-ish turret is definitely not game ending, specially not in soloq. Grouping and getting picks is often times far more gamedeciding than that one guy on that one champ that completely takes over. But it does happen. And it does suck.
Also, I've seen qt wreck people in every lane, so, I guess we can say he has good and bad games then.
Maybe only one role still had these issues of queue times (one of the things they wanted to improve from teambuiler; in current soloQ you often see two people call the same role with one not minding taking another instead), while two increases possibilities by a lot. They added "fill" from players' requests.
I've mentioned a few times how I get by because I'm playing strong champions I'm experienced with and abusing knowledge. I don't TP gank as much as I could and I'm not a good splitpusher, and I can't beat Vlad or Darius as Irelia (I struggle against Gnar and Jayce). But I roll over Gangplank, Fiora, and with Maokai I've solokilled a Vlad at level 3 and a Darius thrice during laning. People underestimate my champion's burst (Irelia) or my willingness to go aggro (Maokai) and I punish them for that... while missing out on a lot of small other mistakes they make, and opportunities around the map.
Went back from Gold IV to II recently, as I get closer to I I won't be able to do this as much and it'll get harder for me because people are more experienced. Usually at that point I relied on the "I'm putting you ahead then keeping you alive, now you carry me" playstyle, mostly as support and from the jungle. It's meta dependant (season 3 LB/Fizz/Zed/Ahri match-ups every game was a boon for Vi; my Braum will drop in value if the meta moves to Zyra/Sona/Nami/Soraka), and jungle is a very good role for this. But I'm full of rust, Nautilus isn't as good anymore (he needs to start Gromp and clears blue so slowly smite's back up by the time he finishes it off, plus various nerfs), my Vi mechanics suck (I keep barely missing Qs) so I can't convert enough ganks compared to before to make up for my suboptimal decision-making.
I thrive in the jungle when I find a champ I can be effective with, but that last part as barely more occurrences than there have been seasons, and taking breaks of several months destroys my game sense (compared to laning where I can autopilot a lot of Viktor's/Irelia's match-ups).
So clearly if I get to Plat this season it'll be off the back of my top and support and a lucky streak. I don't know if I'd break into Gold playing AD (I can certainly hold my own in Silver, but not carry like I could from mid or top), I've become bad at my playstyle in the jungle (maybe I could try Ekko for early presence), and I don't play high-impact supports like Thresh, Annie or Alistar to roam and win mid too.
Well yea but you lose gracefully and your team loses slightly with a teamcomp that isn't good at playing from behind you are probably gonna lose. People knowing this information makes them try risky things and sometimes it just makes you lose faster. Also most people are just dicking around in le soloq.
Keep in mind the way you climb is punishing mistakes not simply not making any. The highest rated people are generally the best at it which makes games end faster.
Another example is freezing. In a lot of situations it is the best thing to do but very few people do it simply because it is boring.
On September 23 2015 22:33 nafta wrote: Another example is freezing. In a lot of situations it is the best thing to do but very few people do it simply because it is boring.
Freezing depends from situation to situation man. A Vladimir is never going to let you freeze for example A hypercary bot wants to freeze and someone like Jinx is perfectly able to, but Vayne is easily pushed in and has issues getting harassed even under turret. Then you have the dynamics of the supports. You may be able to freeze as Jinx, for example, but if you still get hooked, or poked to 20% hp, it's gonna be rough no matter what.
My general rule is: -freeze if you're scaling, have an easily gankable lane and/or have a stronger 2v2. That way they always have to play a bit more scared, will lose more cs and will get killed if the jungler actually shows up. -push them in if they have waveclear issues and you can whittle them down with poke or range (or just have an abusive duo). This way you get an automatic creep lead and are able to prevent all ins simply by them having too little hp (but that typical blitz hook under turret though) But mostly the dynamic changes after the first back. If you have accumulated a large lead before first back, it's likely you'll just stomp. If they had good synergy and got good farm, it'll be pretty even, but you still might be able to take the turret first.
For Jinx specifically, I like to push untill around lvl 4 and then I wana freeze the wave at the beginning of the river or a little bit closer to my turret. Pushing simply because her big rockets do work at lvl 1-3, you have good control wih zap (and chompers if you wana play safer and feel like all-ins are possible at every turn) and the lvl 4 is just because her range and kit allows for great manipulation/safety and can set up ganks pretty well. She also doesn't gain supermuch from putting points in Q before a first item and any attack speed imo, even though the minigun speedramp is always significant, if you have a BF sword and someone gets caught by 2 aa's, a zap and some more aa's, you can easily finish them off with your ult, or blow both their summoners just by yourself.
I always freeze the lane when I have the opportunity to, lasthitting is a simple pleasure in and of itself. My problem is when the other player is in the lane and I just GOTTA KILLUM, no matter how hard he signals that their jungler is nearby.
Oh, and pulling out of a teamfight. I've seen that pros leave a fight early if it seems like its going sour, but in that situation I usually make a desperate effort to turn the fight instead. Plus your team is less likely to rage if you just die with them rather than play it "correctly".
I guess I wanted to open the conversation a bit on freezing or just wave manipulation in general or something;
Rocket range is not that impressive if you have no crit mechanic / no attack speed / no items. If you overuse it, you're out of mana, if your mechanics in switching it from hitting more than 1 target and longer range to 1on1 and stutter stepping to finish someone off aren't on point, you're gonna mess up the fight. I'm not saying it's completely irrelevant, I'm saying start to see the actual difference once you get your first item, which should be a BF. Then you actually become a lanebully imo. A pickaxe also doesn't feel superstrong, unless they completely overstep their boundaries.
And freezing can be shitty for your teammates in certain situations. If you need the farm, because you're behind for example and they've already taken your turret, but there's a huge, juicy wave for you and you can deny the enemy adc so much cs, do you do it? Chances are it's gonna be a 4v5 for a long time then. And if your support is a dumbass, it becomes a 3v5. And if he's even more of a dumbass, he doesn't ward your jungle either so they steal everything away + get picks on you (because they can dive the lonely behind adc) and other people because your jungle isn't warded and rotations are something difficult to do well for some reason.
On September 23 2015 21:57 Numy wrote: I find that for "fill" the hardest part is the laning phase generally. After the game breaks down knowledge about map movement and objectives kind of passes off, just now what you doing is slightly different. What I've done is essentially created as Slusher would say a "gaping vagina" playstyle when I'm filling in a situation I'm not too familiar with. My goal is just to survive laning phase by going as even as possible with only punishing obviously punishable plays. If I have to I'll sacrifice a bit instead of dying or getting punished myself.
I actually think laning is the easiest part when it comes to playing a role I am not familiar with. Laning is easy overall.
Some of the harder parts come from being able to make the correct split second decisions in a teamfight on a role/champion I am not familiar with.
With respect to the "how many positions does one main" question: I considered the definition that a player can be defined as maining X positions if she plays each of those X positions more on average than all the non-X positions put together.
For example, a 35/35/10/10/10 mains 2 positions. A 50/30/10/5/5 mains 2 positions. A 45/30/20/3/2 mains 3 positions.
An alternative definition can be: rank-order your position frequency from highest to lowest, then find the highest difference between any two numbers. The positions above that difference are the ones you main.
But then I ran into some issues trying to apply it to my own ranked games. I'll crowdsource this question: how many positions do I main?
On September 23 2015 22:07 nafta wrote: The only thing I don't understand is why didn't they add 5 boxes and you check each one for roles you wanna play and instead you MUST put 2 roles that you want to play. Maybe I want to play only 1 role why will I be forced to play 2?
Because even if you have general understanding of how to play a lane doesn't mean you can keep up with people who specialize in it or a champion. Qt feeds in lane all the time like a retard so that doesn't really help your example.
Forcing people to pick 2 roles makes it a lot easier to put teams together because there are fewer possible combinations. The number of potential combinations increases dramatically with each additional role you allow a player to select, and processing that isn't trivial, even with the sorts of shortcuts and optimizations you typically find in a good algorithm.
On September 23 2015 22:07 nafta wrote: The only thing I don't understand is why didn't they add 5 boxes and you check each one for roles you wanna play and instead you MUST put 2 roles that you want to play. Maybe I want to play only 1 role why will I be forced to play 2?
Because even if you have general understanding of how to play a lane doesn't mean you can keep up with people who specialize in it or a champion. Qt feeds in lane all the time like a retard so that doesn't really help your example.
Forcing people to pick 2 roles makes it a lot easier to put teams together because there are fewer possible combinations. The number of potential combinations increases dramatically with each additional role you allow a player to select, and processing that isn't trivial, even with the sorts of shortcuts and optimizations you typically find in a good algorithm.
It also goes against the whole point of playing whatever you want. If you think you are waiting too long you pick more than 1 role.
You could also let players give priority to roles and after an x amount of time the que could add another role to the search.
Teambuilder had a small audience and *barely* worked with you only picking one role. Ranked teambuilder could potentially end up with an even smaller audience. It's almost certainly for matchmaking.
I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that most people have alt positions anyway.
Also forgot how there are a lot of people who don't mind playing 4 roles but they really dislike the other one. You are fucking them as well.
Just because you have an alt position doesn't mean you consider it as good as your main. While picking 2 roles implies you want both equally since there are no other parameters.
Teambuilder is bad because you have to pick your champ before select and there are mirrors.
On September 23 2015 23:57 nafta wrote: It will they said so.
Also forgot how there are a lot of people who don't mind playing 4 roles but they really dislike the other one. You are fucking them as well.
Just because you have an alt position doesn't mean you consider it as good as your main. While picking 2 roles implies you want both equally since there are no other parameters.
Lyte mentioned in that Reddit thread that there will be a "primary" and "secondary" option when you pick your 2 roles.
On September 23 2015 23:44 Caiada wrote: Teambuilder had a small audience and *barely* worked with you only picking one role. Ranked teambuilder could potentially end up with an even smaller audience. It's almost certainly for matchmaking.
I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that most people have alt positions anyway.
Problem with Teambuilder is there is no ban phase, the team captain and boot people that pick things they don't like, mirrors, and people choose their champion without knowing what they could possibly be put on a team with. From the sound of it, the new system would address these issues.
I started to understand how "fill"works for you guys, you assume that playing decently and carrying your own weight should be good enough to have a good game, not talking about wins and loses, but a good pleasant game. Obviously you are not playing in EUNE where 7 out of 10 people even in platinum elo have no idea about basics in the game, they are there mostly due to their mechanics, but they have no knowledge about timings, positioning, playing from behind, they don't watch streams, tournaments, no theoretical background, no item interactions - nothing, so they become an easy prey for the few that are more prepared and if you want a decent game you have to give 110% everytime and even then you can't avoid most games to be stomps
Which still screws over people like me. On the other hand they design for the majority and the majority of people play casually, have one role or maybe too, and often only one champion for each (having people from legit Bronze up to Diamond on my friend list, most of them in Silver, you can tell).
"Fill" means "my jungle and mid are worse than top and support, but I believe that I can make the gap not too impactful given the right circumstances"... circumstances which the new queue would deny me by forcing me to pick a role before we start banning and picking. That's more or less my issue with that queue.
On September 23 2015 23:57 nafta wrote: It will they said so.
Also forgot how there are a lot of people who don't mind playing 4 roles but they really dislike the other one. You are fucking them as well.
Just because you have an alt position doesn't mean you consider it as good as your main. While picking 2 roles implies you want both equally since there are no other parameters.
Lyte mentioned in that Reddit thread that there will be a "primary" and "secondary" option when you pick your 2 roles.
Then there is the reverse problem.
Why can't they just give us a choice? This is the hud all over again.
On September 24 2015 00:05 Alaric wrote: Which still screws over people like me. On the other hand they design for the majority and the majority of people play casually, have one role or maybe too, and often only one champion for each (having people from legit Bronze up to Diamond on my friend list, most of them in Silver, you can tell).
Your decision isn't set in stone. You can change your position preference every time.
See my edit, I often decide which role/lane I'm going to play during champ select, not before I click "play". It happens with multiple people in the group when we play normals, but hop into ranked and most of them already know what they're going to play then.
That sounds optimistic. I had a decent time with teambuilder though, always kind of wished it caught on better/got improved. I don't know why mirrors are even an option outside of normal blind pick.
People are bringing up edge cases, and I just really don't see how those are that big of a deal. I'd be extremely confident saying the vast majority of people just play whatever the hell they feel like playing, whether that's an actual role or filling.
On September 24 2015 00:09 Caiada wrote: Oh, it'll replace Ranked Draft if it goes well.
That sounds optimistic. I had a decent time with teambuilder though, always kind of wished it caught on better/got improved. I don't know why mirrors are even an option outside of normal blind pick.
People are bringing up edge cases, and I just really don't see how those are that big of a deal. I'd be extremely confident saying the vast majority of people just play whatever the hell they feel like playing, whether that's an actual role or filling.
So because 90% of players will be satisfied by this the other 10% should go fuck themselves? The fuck kind of logic is that.
You literally would have a way to reduce your que times by picking more roles. Everything would be in your hands.
Please give me one real reason why this is better to picking each role and giving role priority.
On September 24 2015 00:15 VayneAuthority wrote: y'all ready know what trolls like me are gonna do, can't wait to queue up as support only and then in champ select be like ok guys top main here :^)
unless the system like announces what you picked out loud...but that might make it even better
Trolls will always be trolls and find a way, the question here is will this improve the post-trolls, people who become trolls because they did not get what they hoped for
On September 24 2015 00:05 Alaric wrote: Which still screws over people like me. On the other hand they design for the majority and the majority of people play casually, have one role or maybe too, and often only one champion for each (having people from legit Bronze up to Diamond on my friend list, most of them in Silver, you can tell).
"Fill" means "my jungle and mid are worse than top and support, but I believe that I can make the gap not too impactful given the right circumstances"... circumstances which the new queue would deny me by forcing me to pick a role before we start banning and picking. That's more or less my issue with that queue.
for what I understood there will be fill role, so you can just press this and you dont need to go for 2 roles
but in reality there is 2 optimal ways to climb the ladder. you either main 1 role and become a monster at it and climb through sheer force, or you spend the time to look up websites like op.gg and lolking and try and figure out how to make your teammates play their best every game, picking the role that your team needs the most. This isn't the same as fill because often people will give you inaccurate info to what they actually play if they are currently tilted or whatever. If some guy calls top but mains support im obviously going top in this situation.
Anything else is just a far tier below these two options
I personally don't see myself using ranked teambuilder much unless it takes over normal ranks. The reason being that by specializing yourself to one or two roles, you'll become much less aware of other mechanics in the game, and just be a less 'complete' player. The good thing about it is that because people can focus on roles, the general skill level should rise for games because people should (technically) know what they're doing. That should (technically) reduce toxicity... yeah lol, who am I kidding.
That sounds optimistic. I had a decent time with teambuilder though, always kind of wished it caught on better/got improved. I don't know why mirrors are even an option outside of normal blind pick.
Teambuilder has tons of issues like that, it's what makes it so unappealing for me. I use normal draft to practice because it takes so much less time (even with 5 dodges, which isn't too uncommon I've found), and you don't get kicked for wanting to try out support Kennen. If I want to play a real game, I go play ranked. But Teambuilder is only good if you want a game where you play a specific champion in a specific role, and isn't really good for general practice.
On September 24 2015 00:15 VayneAuthority wrote: y'all ready know what trolls like me are gonna do, can't wait to queue up as support only and then in champ select be like ok guys top main here :^)
unless the system like announces what you picked out loud...but that might make it even better
From the sound of it your teammates will know what position you ended up with and picking outside of it without discussing it with your team will be reportable.
Anyone with some experience with Team Builder will tell you that no one likes to play support and it can potentially take a very long time until you can find someone. With this in mind, it is worrisome how Ranked Team Builder will turn out.
On September 24 2015 00:58 Sufficiency wrote: Anyone with some experience with Team Builder will tell you that no one likes to play support and it can potentially take a very long time until you can find someone. With this in mind, it is worrisome how Ranked Team Builder will turn out.
A decent number of people play support in ranked, think it goes up past Plat because people realize you can actually win games by being a good support. But yeah, a lot of supports I see are just filling, they don't actually play the role.
woah fucking fnatic. They are providing the best possible environment for players. im surprised that CLG is also there, HSGG is badass. The place TSM staying looks like a joke compared to this.
On September 24 2015 00:05 Alaric wrote: Which still screws over people like me. On the other hand they design for the majority and the majority of people play casually, have one role or maybe too, and often only one champion for each (having people from legit Bronze up to Diamond on my friend list, most of them in Silver, you can tell).
"Fill" means "my jungle and mid are worse than top and support, but I believe that I can make the gap not too impactful given the right circumstances"... circumstances which the new queue would deny me by forcing me to pick a role before we start banning and picking. That's more or less my issue with that queue.
for what I understood there will be fill role, so you can just press this and you dont need to go for 2 roles
I really do not want to play AD. Their system won't let me do this, I'll have to negociate whenever I get it. It also means the "fill" is skewed toward the least popular roles, which doesn't necessarily correlate with my kind of filling.
The big problem is going to be pick order and queue times.
The problem, essentially, is what happens when a person with a large number of roles picks first and takes a common as opposed to uncomon role. Now someone is in an off role. Or the FP gets a knock for playing what they want.
This will happen with duo queues as well since they will not likely play their off role unless picking last.
So unless you can structure pick order as well as team comp I can see a lot of problems. That doesn't seem impossible but it also doesn't seem ideal. Since then you can manipulate pick order by selecting your number of roles, and things like duo queues will almost never get their priority.
On September 24 2015 00:05 Alaric wrote: Which still screws over people like me. On the other hand they design for the majority and the majority of people play casually, have one role or maybe too, and often only one champion for each (having people from legit Bronze up to Diamond on my friend list, most of them in Silver, you can tell).
"Fill" means "my jungle and mid are worse than top and support, but I believe that I can make the gap not too impactful given the right circumstances"... circumstances which the new queue would deny me by forcing me to pick a role before we start banning and picking. That's more or less my issue with that queue.
for what I understood there will be fill role, so you can just press this and you dont need to go for 2 roles
I really do not want to play AD. Their system won't let me do this, I'll have to negociate whenever I get it. It also means the "fill" is skewed toward the least popular roles, which doesn't necessarily correlate with my kind of filling.
What you mean is, the system won't let you choose "anything but AD".
If we're assuming the system doesn't directly enforce the roles beyond players potentially reporting you for picking outside your selection, what's to stop you from picking two and then simply being more flexible than your selection implied?
On September 24 2015 01:43 TheYango wrote: Because being able to pick 4 roles would give you faster queue times than picking 2?
That doesn't seem to be Alaric's focus, but regardless that depends on Riot's algorithms and available processing power. I noted this earlier, but the number of possible setups/combinations increases significantly as you increase the number of roles a player selects. "Fill" is probably only an option because there's an implicit assumption that you can be used as a pure wildcard and no weighting/preferences need to be considered.
On September 24 2015 01:43 TheYango wrote: Because being able to pick 4 roles would give you faster queue times than picking 2?
That doesn't seem to be Alaric's focus, but regardless that depends on Riot's algorithms and available processing power. I noted this earlier, but the number of possible setups/combinations increases significantly as you increase the number of roles a player selects. "Fill" is probably only an option because there's an implicit assumption that you can be used as a pure wildcard and no weighting/preferences need to be considered.
I doubt that matchmaking algorithms take up a lot of server power, compared to the data being transferred during a game it should be minuscule. Also, this isn't probability, the system sees you signed up for role A and B, a game with your MMR has a spot available for role A, you get put into role A (there's probably an order for filling specific roles). I would find it strange if the system considered a player for multiple games, because then players would always be being taken out of teams when they get into lobby. In the view of the system, there would be difference between the fill role and a normal player, you get put into the first available spot for you. Makes stuff faster too that way.
the way to go about tb draft would be simply to pick whatever 2 roles you want to practice at a time, work on them for X length of time then switch and work on something else when you feel like it.
overall the system should reduce champ select grief quite a bit. another option is to press fill and dodge if you get the 1 in 5 roles that you don't play.
On September 24 2015 00:58 Sufficiency wrote: Anyone with some experience with Team Builder will tell you that no one likes to play support and it can potentially take a very long time until you can find someone. With this in mind, it is worrisome how Ranked Team Builder will turn out.
this is because TB only lets you pick one role. by picking multiple you'd get more cases of people willing to support.
the one thing i don't want, is this distinction that exists in TB between 'fighter', 'mage', 'assassin' etc this is what leads to 20 minute queues
If we're assuming the system doesn't directly enforce the roles beyond players potentially reporting you for picking outside your selection, what's to stop you from picking two and then simply being more flexible than your selection implied?
On paper, nothing, and that'd be fine by me. However, I am doubtful of the average team's (as a group of me + 4 players) willingness to accomodate this on a regular basis. I'd need to see how the system will be handled, but a few things to consider: - people believed that typing first would give priority, Riot enforced pick order, so you find people (not the majority in my experience, but still) who'll be very vocal if you "contest" the pick order by politely asking if they mind letting you. If the chosen roles (the one by the system or the two by each player) are displayed, people will use it: "the system said jungle even if you said fill, so you play that", "it says fill and the only role left is top, so no I won't switch with you I want mid", etc.
- depending on the frequency at which it occurs (and Riot's policy regarding these reports and how to enforce them), it may not be worth it to incur the reports to try and negociate your way through another role.
- if the roles are assigned by the system and displayed, then it makes it harder to switch on the spot like I tend to do (as I said, I'm aware that I'm an outlier and thus not weighting much in the system's design).
Again, this is all congruent to how the system and UI turn out, so I'll wait to see it before I speak too firmly, although from what we've read and Riot's track record I probably won't like it.
On September 24 2015 01:43 TheYango wrote: Because being able to pick 4 roles would give you faster queue times than picking 2?
That doesn't seem to be Alaric's focus, but regardless that depends on Riot's algorithms and available processing power. I noted this earlier, but the number of possible setups/combinations increases significantly as you increase the number of roles a player selects. "Fill" is probably only an option because there's an implicit assumption that you can be used as a pure wildcard and no weighting/preferences need to be considered.
I doubt that matchmaking algorithms take up a lot of server power, compared to the data being transferred during a game it should be minuscule. Also, this isn't probability, the system sees you signed up for role A and B, a game with your MMR has a spot available for role A, you get put into role A (there's probably an order for filling specific roles). I would find it strange if the system considered a player for multiple games, because then players would always be being taken out of teams when they get into lobby. In the view of the system, there would be difference between the fill role and a normal player, you get put into the first available spot for you. Makes stuff faster too that way.
Data transfer is a fundamentally different beast from matchmaking. The primary aspects of that problem are verifying the data and sending it on its way, neither of which is processor intensive. The only reason there's a large processing load is because there's a lot of data, but there's specialized hardware for this very purpose.
Matchmaking is complicated and processor intensive because it involves actually operating on the data. Even if you get only a subset of the list of players to work on, working through the list in a way that prevents extreme cases (e.g. getting orphaned and sitting in the queue forever) is a non-trivial task. We take for granted how difficult that sort of thing is because Google and others make it seem so easy, but it isn't.
Now, it would be fair to argue that a "fill"-like option where you simply specify one or two roles you don't want to play wouldn't be hard to work into that considering there's already a "fill" option, but one which gives roles weights and considerations in the same manner as the primary/secondary system would represent a non-trivial increase in processing.
"Fill" implies that you don't care about what role you play, so the algorithm can skip trying to weigh your preferences and just slot you wherever it wants. By comparison, selecting Primary + Secondary + Tertiary + Quaternary roles implies preference which is a non-trivial issue to evaluate.
The key point being that so long as players choosing 3 or 4 roles are shortcutted the same way as "Fill" players (probably) are there shouldn't be an issue making it work, but those players would have to accept that of the roles they selected no preferences will be weighed at all.
Which, honestly, most players wouldn't. This XKCD comic is pretty relevant here, most players would find the 3+ cutoff completely arbitrary and have no understanding of why they can have preferences for two roles but not for more than that.
Hey guys, whats your opinion on Sterak's Gage on champions like Irelia, Aatrox or Trundle? I've been testing it as a second or third item (mostly after stacking some HP with Triforce or Randuin's/DMP). So far it seemed really good as a third item especially for trundle and aatrox, as the shield makes you night unkillable with all the sustain these champions bring. On Irelia I found it more effective as a second item if you are snowballing to really bring the one shot hurt from amplified Triforce procs. Otherwise I'd delay it to a 4th or 5th item on her.
Aatrox is trashtier if you ask me no matter what you build on him, and Trundle doesn't really synergize with either steraks or triforce. But on Irelia, yes, build steraks. So stronk.
For a similar price you could also go Deadman's plate, offers a ton of armor. So if you're looking for some upfront burst, with tankiness, Deadman's plate is also a suitable replacement, or if you want to go balls to the walls, triforce+deadman's+sterak's.
edit: wait, with GD split, doesn't this discussion go in the other thread? any quick clarification real quick?
Whenever I play Sion I always go titanic->deadmans->steraks/gauntlet. I mean, Sion got really high base damage, but following up a q or an ulti with a deadmans auto+titanic active, hooo boy whatever you just hit is fukken dead, and you're still tanky as shit. I love it.
On September 24 2015 16:56 Osmoses wrote: Aatrox is trashtier if you ask me no matter what you build on him, and Trundle doesn't really synergize with either steraks or triforce. But on Irelia, yes, build steraks. So stronk.
Aatrox may not be the champ in the game, but he is far from trash tier. You can simple not blind pick him, but he can do well against comps with multiple tanks or as a lane counter and splitpusher if you know the enemy top in advance.
Ofc he's going to feel like trash if you pick him into janna/vayne or darius.
He does fine in lane, but in teamfights he shares the same problem as every other melee bruiser; getting more than one or two hits off on a squishy before getting bursted or peeled. As for splitpushing, what does Aatrox do that other champs don't do better?
Yeah and to echo wei, is this the right thread for this discussion? :p
On September 24 2015 17:33 Osmoses wrote: Whenever I play Sion I always go titanic->deadmans->steraks/gauntlet. I mean, Sion got really high base damage, but following up a q or an ulti with a deadmans auto+titanic active, hooo boy whatever you just hit is fukken dead, and you're still tanky as shit. I love it.
I like building FH first in many occasions though, that way your ult is available way more often, and Sion likes the mana to spam his abilities. I guess if you manage to build a lead, Titanic is really good for bullying in lane, goes really nice with Sion's health stacking.
Yeah, Sion's ult does so much damage and is a ridiculous stun time combined with Q, that combo can win you fights singlehandedly, same tier as Orianna ult, I'd argue better than a Malphite ult.
The current system functions the same as if everyone was queuing Fill, right? If queue times were an issue at the highest levels could this be solved with queuing fill and it would be status quo? Defeats the purpose of the system for that level but it's still in place for everyone else.
i hate sion so im glad nobody plays him, they reworked him into such an annoying champ.
there's better stuff to buy on trundle then triforce, he doesnt really need the speed boost and gives a lot of useless stats he doesnt want. titanic hydra better as a 2nd damage item after botrk and if no triforce no point in steraks
one of the best triforce/steraks users is skarner. his base damage is sooo high.
On September 24 2015 22:09 mordek wrote: The current system functions the same as if everyone was queuing Fill, right? If queue times were an issue at the highest levels could this be solved with queuing fill and it would be status quo? Defeats the purpose of the system for that level but it's still in place for everyone else.
Well then what happens is that you get a prisoner's dilemma situation where if one person queues for a role and not fill, they'll always get it with no adverse effect, but if everyone does it, queue times get fucked again.
On September 24 2015 22:09 mordek wrote: The current system functions the same as if everyone was queuing Fill, right? If queue times were an issue at the highest levels could this be solved with queuing fill and it would be status quo? Defeats the purpose of the system for that level but it's still in place for everyone else.
Well then what happens is that you get a prisoner's dilemma situation where if one person queues for a role and not fill, they'll always get it with no adverse effect, but if everyone does it, queue times get fucked again.
So it's reasonable to assume since the population is lower at that elo it just won't work? Is role diversity a known problem there and people just get stuck filling the least played role all the time? How do we know this?
I figure high level people will learn to adapt and it will become standard for them to just pick fill, unless they really want to play a certain role. Smurfing is also an option I guess.
Isnt role distribution pretty average at all elos? Also for a pro its probably better to wait in queue and relax than waste time playing his non-main. And if you arent pro then pick least popular role and bask in glorious short queues.
I need some rengar tips. What do I do in lategame when everyone's grouped? Just wait until someone else starts a fight, splitpush, try to go 1 for 1 with enemy carry?
On September 24 2015 22:09 mordek wrote: The current system functions the same as if everyone was queuing Fill, right? If queue times were an issue at the highest levels could this be solved with queuing fill and it would be status quo? Defeats the purpose of the system for that level but it's still in place for everyone else.
Well then what happens is that you get a prisoner's dilemma situation where if one person queues for a role and not fill, they'll always get it with no adverse effect, but if everyone does it, queue times get fucked again.
Well, the assigned role thing sounds like it's supposed to replace the need for some communication in champ select, not actually enforce people to play what they queued up for, so if one person queues up for ADC and the other 4 are fill, but one of them wants to play ADC instead and has pick order priority, then...? Think they'll enforce reporting people for playing things other than what they queue up as?
On September 24 2015 22:09 mordek wrote: The current system functions the same as if everyone was queuing Fill, right? If queue times were an issue at the highest levels could this be solved with queuing fill and it would be status quo? Defeats the purpose of the system for that level but it's still in place for everyone else.
Well then what happens is that you get a prisoner's dilemma situation where if one person queues for a role and not fill, they'll always get it with no adverse effect, but if everyone does it, queue times get fucked again.
Well, the assigned role thing sounds like it's supposed to replace the need for some communication in champ select, not actually enforce people to play what they queued up for, so if one person queues up for ADC and the other 4 are fill, but one of them wants to play ADC instead and has pick order priority, then...? Think they'll enforce reporting people for playing things other than what they queue up as?
if 4 people pick fill and one person picks ADC the other 4 pick everything other than ADC. that's what they agreed to do by picking fill. if they don't like it they can dodge.
On September 24 2015 22:09 mordek wrote: The current system functions the same as if everyone was queuing Fill, right? If queue times were an issue at the highest levels could this be solved with queuing fill and it would be status quo? Defeats the purpose of the system for that level but it's still in place for everyone else.
Well then what happens is that you get a prisoner's dilemma situation where if one person queues for a role and not fill, they'll always get it with no adverse effect, but if everyone does it, queue times get fucked again.
Well, the assigned role thing sounds like it's supposed to replace the need for some communication in champ select, not actually enforce people to play what they queued up for, so if one person queues up for ADC and the other 4 are fill, but one of them wants to play ADC instead and has pick order priority, then...? Think they'll enforce reporting people for playing things other than what they queue up as?
Yes. Picking for a position other than what you were assigned without consent of your team is reportable in the new system.
On September 24 2015 00:58 Sufficiency wrote: Anyone with some experience with Team Builder will tell you that no one likes to play support and it can potentially take a very long time until you can find someone. With this in mind, it is worrisome how Ranked Team Builder will turn out.
A decent number of people play support in ranked, think it goes up past Plat because people realize you can actually win games by being a good support. But yeah, a lot of supports I see are just filling, they don't actually play the role.
This is 100% true. The I can't carry from support mentality plauges the lower levels but as you climb you run into more and more support mains. I think partly because they get the role the want like 90% of the time as they climb so some are super proficient.
On September 25 2015 06:39 kongoline wrote: two 50 minute games in row against soraka and i feel like i need chemotherapy
I feel like soraka games are very binary. Teamfighting you either need insane levels of burst and sustained damage, or catch the soraka out (much harder against good players), otherwise you auto-lose the fight because you simply can't kill anybody.
There was one game I lost where my team did over twice as much damage as the other team did combined, but we simply got attritioned down in fights by the fucking soraka.
On September 25 2015 00:13 AlterKot wrote: Isnt role distribution pretty average at all elos? Also for a pro its probably better to wait in queue and relax than waste time playing his non-main. And if you arent pro then pick least popular role and bask in glorious short queues.
I need some rengar tips. What do I do in lategame when everyone's grouped? Just wait until someone else starts a fight, splitpush, try to go 1 for 1 with enemy carry?
Hi, platinum rengar main here, with good kda. When they start to group it becomes pretty hard and there are many possible scenarios and things you could do that depends on the situation and they will come up with experience.
For example sometimes you may go on to their front line if one of them separates a bit more from the team and you go to lock him down with empowered bolas and you only do this if your whole team will back you. So you dont go for the solo kill, you play utility/initiation.
Another scenario is if there is another sniper in your team then initiate on their carry, again locking him down (not for kill), quick burst to take half of his life and run away as fast as you can while you hope for the other sniper to finish the job. Then you circle around the fight and wait for someone from the other team to get closer, coz you cannot afford walking in by any means.
3rd scenario are fights in the jungle or near baron where you have no vision, they know it and you know that they are ambushing you, then you start with early ulti to get vision, usually the ambushing teams are positioned bad, so you initiate on their carries, they often do not expect counter ambush and you usually die there but your team wins the fight.
4th and most recommended scenario is to be patient, start your ultimate when the fight started and wait wait wait, dont get impatient and you go in at the end of your ultimate, you can decide to go earlier, but if you are not sure 5-6 seconds of waiting is usually enough for the enemies to forget about you and focus in other stuff.
Overall if you are not confident in the other scenarios always use scenario 4, obviously it won't work everytime, sometimes for 5 seconds the fight is over, but whatever, this is what your champ is good at. He is not good in everything
p.s. Scenario 5, none of the above worked but the game is not lost yet, fuck their grouping, fuck your team and go split pushing if god loves you they will start spreading on the map and you\ll have your chance to pick carries or turrets
I'm starting to see more and more Veigar's showing up in my games, and on the games of various League streamers. Is he legitimately good right now, or is this the "everyone forgot how to play against X champion so they're OP" syndrome again, like it was for Eve earlier in 2015?
Yeah, mid lane has kind of fallen into the same pattern that top lane has, namely that you can run TP and never be pushed out of lane. Throw in a flask start, maybe a catalyst or Tear to clear super safe, and you're all set to go. Assassins can still blow you up ofc, but if you're low, you can just recall and be back in lane. Not to mention that bc you're always in lane, your opponent is probably going to fall behind in cs/levels if they back at an unfavorable time, while you have way more flexibility.
Thanks m2. Turns out I was also doing wrong build and improper combo so hopefully with this combined knowledge I can spread the plague instead of being the victim :p
On September 25 2015 17:57 Kinie wrote: So maybe someone here can answer this for me.
I'm starting to see more and more Veigar's showing up in my games, and on the games of various League streamers. Is he legitimately good right now, or is this the "everyone forgot how to play against X champion so they're OP" syndrome again, like it was for Eve earlier in 2015?
Yes, there was a discussion about it maybe 10+ pages back. I was basically claiming that Veigar is free elo right now (I think I am 16-4 or something like that in recent games)
On September 25 2015 19:46 DarkCore wrote: Yeah, mid lane has kind of fallen into the same pattern that top lane has, namely that you can run TP and never be pushed out of lane. Throw in a flask start, maybe a catalyst or Tear to clear super safe, and you're all set to go. Assassins can still blow you up ofc, but if you're low, you can just recall and be back in lane. Not to mention that bc you're always in lane, your opponent is probably going to fall behind in cs/levels if they back at an unfavorable time, while you have way more flexibility.
I don't really like flask starts when running TP. Just feels like you wasting that TP advantage because you going full sustain anyway. I guess it's alright if you never intend to TP back into lane and instead just going to TP to side lane as your first TP.
On September 25 2015 19:46 DarkCore wrote: Yeah, mid lane has kind of fallen into the same pattern that top lane has, namely that you can run TP and never be pushed out of lane. Throw in a flask start, maybe a catalyst or Tear to clear super safe, and you're all set to go. Assassins can still blow you up ofc, but if you're low, you can just recall and be back in lane. Not to mention that bc you're always in lane, your opponent is probably going to fall behind in cs/levels if they back at an unfavorable time, while you have way more flexibility.
I don't really like flask starts when running TP. Just feels like you wasting that TP advantage because you going full sustain anyway. I guess it's alright if you never intend to TP back into lane and instead just going to TP to side lane as your first TP.
I usually do dring + 2 and hard push or something like with Diana, tp back with 2 drings early and just go from there.
i feel like viegar is a bit like rengar right now. he's getting fed in all my games but his playstyle is pretty binary. With the right teamcomp champions you beat them easily but if you dont have the right tools then they just murder your team.
Like for example bard sucks as a support vs rengar, impossible to save your adc in time since everything is a on a delay. However he is very good vs veigar since immobile mage that needs to get the jump sucks vs bard ult.
The other way around is true for lulu, can squirrel rengar/ult adc instantly but you cant really be a reactionary support vs veigar.
Another thing is veigar Destroys easily kitable/melee champs for the most part with his stun so that is probably contributing to his strength a lot too. if you have a kite/long range team then veigar struggles to really do anything.
On September 25 2015 19:46 DarkCore wrote: Yeah, mid lane has kind of fallen into the same pattern that top lane has, namely that you can run TP and never be pushed out of lane. Throw in a flask start, maybe a catalyst or Tear to clear super safe, and you're all set to go. Assassins can still blow you up ofc, but if you're low, you can just recall and be back in lane. Not to mention that bc you're always in lane, your opponent is probably going to fall behind in cs/levels if they back at an unfavorable time, while you have way more flexibility.
I don't really like flask starts when running TP. Just feels like you wasting that TP advantage because you going full sustain anyway. I guess it's alright if you never intend to TP back into lane and instead just going to TP to side lane as your first TP.
I agree, opening Dring, then immediately basing when you can pick up ~1k gold worth of items seems to be the best way to play the tp mids. On Diana for instance I like to base when I can get codex + dring2, I feel like thats all she really needs to free farm so having tp down at that point is a non issue.
Do you mean taking it and then tp'ing back to lane, or taking it at high enough health that they can just continue laning? There's a lot of champs that can do the former and way fewer that can do the latter.
On September 26 2015 00:41 GrandInquisitor wrote: Do you mean taking it and then tp'ing back to lane, or taking it at high enough health that they can just continue laning? There's a lot of champs that can do the former and way fewer that can do the latter.
both, honestly doesnt matter. All that matters is how fast they can take it. Trundle can do the former, but I usually TP anyway
used to be a legit strat on Jax was to ignite the red buff to help you steal it faster, then they disabled ignite on anything but champions (more to stop people from igniting minions)
you would go cloth 5, take counterstrike, ignite immediately to get 5 ad/ap and the damage, then walk to lane with ~3 pots and full hp if you did it right. crucially the buff alone (not the small minions) gave lvl2 at that time.
i feel like viegar is a bit like rengar right now. he's getting fed in all my games but his playstyle is pretty binary. With the right teamcomp champions you beat them easily but if you dont have the right tools then they just murder your team.
Which isn't a good thing: when one champion forces entire comps to be built to counter them, it just shouts soloQ pick. I like Braum to counter Veigar though, only problem is that my team decides to go back in after I block a Q, not his ultimate.
i feel like viegar is a bit like rengar right now. he's getting fed in all my games but his playstyle is pretty binary. With the right teamcomp champions you beat them easily but if you dont have the right tools then they just murder your team.
Which isn't a good thing: when one champion forces entire comps to be built to counter them, it just shouts soloQ pick. I like Braum to counter Veigar though, only problem is that my team decides to go back in after I block a Q, not his ultimate.
Veigar is not like Rengar though.
Veigar actually have quite a bit of persistent damage with his Q and he has quite a bit of AP. He is no longer the "blow one person up then die" champion like he was pre rework.
On September 26 2015 04:34 DarkCore wrote: You guys are giving me ideas...
i feel like viegar is a bit like rengar right now. he's getting fed in all my games but his playstyle is pretty binary. With the right teamcomp champions you beat them easily but if you dont have the right tools then they just murder your team.
Which isn't a good thing: when one champion forces entire comps to be built to counter them, it just shouts soloQ pick. I like Braum to counter Veigar though, only problem is that my team decides to go back in after I block a Q, not his ultimate.
Veigar is not like Rengar though.
Veigar actually have quite a bit of persistent damage with his Q and he has quite a bit of AP. He is no longer the "blow one person up then die" champion like he was pre rework.
rengar has one of the most consistent damage outputs for an asssasin due to how his skills work. His ultimate is just for the jump/stealth. if he is left untouched he pentakills your team in seconds
On September 26 2015 04:34 DarkCore wrote: You guys are giving me ideas...
i feel like viegar is a bit like rengar right now. he's getting fed in all my games but his playstyle is pretty binary. With the right teamcomp champions you beat them easily but if you dont have the right tools then they just murder your team.
Which isn't a good thing: when one champion forces entire comps to be built to counter them, it just shouts soloQ pick. I like Braum to counter Veigar though, only problem is that my team decides to go back in after I block a Q, not his ultimate.
Veigar is not like Rengar though.
Veigar actually have quite a bit of persistent damage with his Q and he has quite a bit of AP. He is no longer the "blow one person up then die" champion like he was pre rework.
rengar has one of the most consistent damage outputs for an asssasin due to how his skills work. His ultimate is just for the jump/stealth. if he is left untouched he pentakills your team in seconds
Or he gets cc'ed and dies because he is, you know, melee.
Veigar has acceptable range on his Q and he can kite.
On September 25 2015 17:57 Kinie wrote: So maybe someone here can answer this for me.
I'm starting to see more and more Veigar's showing up in my games, and on the games of various League streamers. Is he legitimately good right now, or is this the "everyone forgot how to play against X champion so they're OP" syndrome again, like it was for Eve earlier in 2015?
His q now grants AP on assists which makes it easier for him to come back into the game and smooths out his need to ks.
His w had its delay and CD moved to the start of the animation, which was an effective .25 second buff to both. I feel like this was the biggest change because hitting a w vs not hitting a w is way more than maybe 100 AP lategame since w has one of the highest base and scaling damages in the game.
On September 26 2015 06:40 cLutZ wrote: And two posts in a row demonstrating why rengar is the epitome of dumbness.
I actually think Yi is worse....
Simply having stealth makes Rengar a royal pain. His burst just puts him over the top as one of the most annoying.
I don't disagree you you on the stealth, but Yi has reset, point-and-click gapcloser that renders him untargettable, lots of AS/MS, heal which also reduces damage, and true damage that scales with AD...
On September 26 2015 06:40 cLutZ wrote: And two posts in a row demonstrating why rengar is the epitome of dumbness.
I actually think Yi is worse....
Simply having stealth makes Rengar a royal pain. His burst just puts him over the top as one of the most annoying.
I don't disagree you you on the stealth, but Yi has reset, point-and-click gapcloser that renders him untargettable, lots of AS/MS, heal which also reduces damage, and true damage that scales with AD...
Yes but Yi still needs some time to kill someone, while Rengar just blows up your carry in less than a second.
Heroes is fun, idk about difficulty level (esports wise it seems like the same teams generally win, so its possible to be consistent in the game). Roaming around killing things and taking objectives as Illidan against Diablo is goofy and fun. Plus the games are short, and afkers are replaced by mildly competent bots.
Blizzard's always made exceptionally polished games.
Balanced and well-designed, not so much, but polished and fun. And when you're fucking around in a blatantly casual moba (or ccg or arpg), that's more than enough.
Competitive games get this bizarre 'it's me or them' mindset; I don't get it.
On September 26 2015 06:40 cLutZ wrote: And two posts in a row demonstrating why rengar is the epitome of dumbness.
I actually think Yi is worse....
Simply having stealth makes Rengar a royal pain. His burst just puts him over the top as one of the most annoying.
I don't disagree you you on the stealth, but Yi has reset, point-and-click gapcloser that renders him untargettable, lots of AS/MS, heal which also reduces damage, and true damage that scales with AD...
Don't forget he's an auto attack centric champion who's ult renders him immune to AS slows in addition to normal ones.
On September 26 2015 06:40 cLutZ wrote: And two posts in a row demonstrating why rengar is the epitome of dumbness.
I actually think Yi is worse....
Simply having stealth makes Rengar a royal pain. His burst just puts him over the top as one of the most annoying.
I don't disagree you you on the stealth, but Yi has reset, point-and-click gapcloser that renders him untargettable, lots of AS/MS, heal which also reduces damage, and true damage that scales with AD...
Don't forget he's an auto attack centric champion who's ult renders him immune to AS slows in addition to normal ones.
Right the slow immune. That's actually pretty important. Not sure why I forgot about it.
Anyway, my biggest problem with Yi is that he does persistent damage and a small burst via Q. It's very different from Katarina where she has small burst but nothing else. Also, due to the way Yi builds (BotRK), he actually has some sustain as well.
The end effect seems to be that Yi can reset in teamfights AND duel most other champions 1 on 1 due to his awesome set of tools. Comparably, Katarina can reset much better, but her niche is somewhat restricted to playing cleanup and can't really do anything else. In Katarina's case, a good way to counter her is simply building more defense. Against Yi it's not that simple since he has sustain, true damage, current % shred (BotRK), and does persistent damage.
That's fine by me. You can have whatever blind fanboyism you want. Objectively it doesn't have the same depth as dota or even League. Ignoring that is totally well within your rights.
I don't even think it's inflammatory to say this either. HotS is too new to be comparable to League or dota as those games are now.
That said I actively dislike major changes before each Worlds, it can reward people who play one style really well that isn't or hasn't been typical for a majority of the season. I know Juggernauts are popular now but jamming them down our throats seems so ham-handed for a company that loves to listen and react to community feedback.
On September 26 2015 14:47 Zdrastochye wrote: That's fine by me. You can have whatever blind fanboyism you want. Objectively it doesn't have the same depth as dota or even League. Ignoring that is totally well within your rights.
I don't even think it's inflammatory to say this either. HotS is too new to be comparable to League or dota as those games are now.
Bolded that which has no evidence. HOTS strategies even at shit ranks are much more interesting and varied than LOL (even for pros), DOTA is a crazy beast though, I'd say its only slightly less varied, but possibly more interesting.
Italicized that which is true, as some champions in HOTS have crazy winrates. Like stiches, that guy sucks.
does soraka heal his ad more than the dmg he sacrifice with the W?
You can just google that lol. Looking at the numbers, Raka heal costs 10% of her health, and heals 120/150/180/210/240 +0.6 AP. That means if she has 2500 health (I'm thinking Warmogs Raka here), she will break even with a lv 5 heal. The more AP the more heal for less health. But that isn't really important bc her heal is a flat 10%, the best thing for Soraka is health regen and hitting that Q as much as possible.
Sure she needs HP, but CDR is better to heal more (and poke/sustain more), and resistances play better with her own sustain. With the range on her heal, warmog's passive requires her to be at over 3k HP, and not to target people busy fighting someone with AoE, so it's at best an antiburst and siege tool. Better store up on CDR, and a mix of HP, resistances and AP.
I always considered Warmogs a good buy vs poke comps. You can't hit them easily to get your own sustain working, and it mitigates the poke on yourself to a certain degree. Would never get it first or second item, it's purely situational.
On September 27 2015 04:18 krndandaman wrote: you don't even get the passive unless you have 3k hp either
so unless you're level 18 soraka with another health item (locket, visage, rubysightstone, etc.) and the warmogs, you don't even get the passive lol. just sightstone doesnt give enough health.
pretty underwhelming really seeing how its only useful with another health item + level 18.
if you're not level 18, you probably need 2 more health items on top of warmogs.
What 6 item soraka build doesn't have at least 3k hp?
You'd probably pick up (ruby) sightstone and maybe locket/banner or something as HP items beforehand, and I'm guessing you'd be picking up Zeke's and mobis as a 4 item core for Raka. I'd probably try to get abyssal (or maybe Dcap/ soulstealer if feeling lucky) afterwards and leave my last slot open for wards.
Varies based on what team comps is, but that's how I usually build Raka.
On September 27 2015 04:18 krndandaman wrote: you don't even get the passive unless you have 3k hp either
so unless you're level 18 soraka with another health item (locket, visage, rubysightstone, etc.) and the warmogs, you don't even get the passive lol. just sightstone doesnt give enough health.
pretty underwhelming really seeing how its only useful with another health item + level 18.
if you're not level 18, you probably need 2 more health items on top of warmogs.
What 6 item soraka build doesn't have at least 3k hp?
edit: realistic 6-item
with or without warmogs?
without warmogs everything lol.
with warmogs nothing
whats your point?
my point is that soraka support shouldnt be hitting level 18 reasonably any time soon before 40 minutes so warmogs as an item choice is automatically nearly always useless because you can't use the passive any time before then.
No one is disagreeing that early warmogs sucks. Mostly just saying it can be a good situational buy in lategame, which includes the parameters of level 18, and more than 1 hp item (outside of sightstone).
Soraka at level 18 has 1855 health. Warmog gives 800 health. So you still need 345 health from, probably, Locket. So yes, you COULD technically do it, but why not just build AP instead since the amount healed scales with AP? Building HP sounds like a terrible idea.
On September 27 2015 04:57 Sufficiency wrote: Soraka at level 18 has 1855 health. Warmog gives 800 health. So you still need 345 health from, probably, Locket. So yes, you COULD technically do it, but why not just build AP instead since the amount healed scales with AP? Building HP sounds like a terrible idea.
The amount of HP5 is really ridiculous and the survivability means that you cannot as easily be picked/focused. At 3000 HP warmogs provides Soraka an extra heal every 3.5 seconds. When you haven't taken damage it provides 450 HP/5 in addition to any other health regen you gain.
This means that soraka can heal indefinitely without worry of getting low. It means she can take damage and still heal without killing herself. It means that pulling out of a fight will let her add heals on the back end of it.
I mean, its 450 HP/5 for a champion that dearly needs HP/5
Edit: With HP yellows and 9 points of defense. Soraka will hit 3000.39 HP at level 18 with just warmogs and blue sightstone
I guess it's not bad then but given the amount of gold you'd have in the situations were you would buy it, I would probably have
Zeke, SS, boots, gp10, locket/banner
so it's that item vs. Majais or even the heal buff thingy isn't that bad after it got buffed, it would defiantly take my team struggling to deal with poke to choose it, but in that situation you are probably right
On September 27 2015 08:45 Slusher wrote: I guess it's not bad then but given the amount of gold you'd have in the situations were you would buy it, I would probably have
Zeke, SS, boots, gp10, locket/banner
so it's that item vs. Majais or even the heal buff thingy isn't that bad after it got buffed, it would defiantly take my team struggling to deal with poke to choose it, but in that situation you are probably right
I agree. Warmog is, IMO, a niche item at best vs poke teams. If you want more heal it's easier to just buy more AP.
On September 27 2015 11:21 JimmiC wrote: Is Virgin really a burn?
Well, no.
But imagine he said "I am so tired of playing with all of you fucking virgins" every 3 minutes for the entire game because his team was losing badly and he was on tilt.
Weirdest ARAM thing happened ever: I got a pentakill as Karthus 1v5- I had died to poke earlier, so I came back to the enemy team mostly low, and snowball+Archangel's and Zhonyas gave me enough time to kill them all. But Jinx killed me right before my last q hit her, also giving her a pentakill since she had killed all my teammates right as I respawned.
So the rare simultaneous double pentakill, with one of them being a 1v5. I don't have a video unfortunately. :/
On September 28 2015 05:43 kongoline wrote: deadmans plate makes warmog look like shit, wish that item was buffed back to 1k hp
Not for Soraka, which is what we were talking about. Also i think you're underestimating the value of the passive, which really is a ridiculous amount of HP/5
Speaking of Veigar, I am seeing him picked a lot more now and it's giving me a serious headache. The biggest problem about playing against Veigar is that it's usually a skill matchup for the non-Veigar, and not for Veigar (because he is just that easy to play). In fact, even if you pick something good like Yasuo, Talon, Fizz, Ekko, Zed, etc. - if you make the smallest misplay in a teamfight you will be blown up - since his E's area is too big and he can just randomly throw it anywhere.
On September 28 2015 10:05 Ketara wrote: It's almost as though the better way to play is to outrange Veigar than to pick an assassin that he can easily stun in a teamfight.
I feel like we had this conversation already though.
So outrange him with the artillery mages and Jayce? So Xerath, Syndra, Karthus, and Lux? I'm sure I'm forgetting a few others but I think those four (plus Jayce) should do ok vs. Veigar in lane.
Karthus was weak vs Veigar. Pre stun change he could not get close enough to do damage. Your only hope is/was like a level 1/2 all in. Not sure if this has changed but it shouldn't have changed much
Lux is really good against him. Syndra is probably too. Xerath doesn't do enough damage even if he is good for zoning.
On September 28 2015 11:01 Kinie wrote: Anyone know what the bug is with Devourer? I've got friends wondering what it is and for the life of me I can't find anything on the bug.
if you get sated then switch it for RG or cinderhulk, not sure if it applies to warrior, you keep the sated buff
Some of the proportions are wrong if you look very closely (in case if you find certain paths missing, it's because obscure build paths with very few occurrences were filtered out), but visually it's fairly simple to see the order of purchase for mid lane Lux (ranked solo queue, plat+, patch 5.18).
On September 28 2015 11:01 Kinie wrote: Anyone know what the bug is with Devourer? I've got friends wondering what it is and for the life of me I can't find anything on the bug.
some kind of sell/undo bug where after getting sated devourer you can get runeglaive (or other enchantments too I think) and keep the sated devourer stats/passive.
search devourer bug and sort by new on reddit and you should find it i remember finding it like that
Other bug: On Xin, you lose the passive if you activate Q. And it also messes up your heal.
On September 28 2015 11:01 Kinie wrote: Anyone know what the bug is with Devourer? I've got friends wondering what it is and for the life of me I can't find anything on the bug.
if you get sated then switch it for RG or cinderhulk, not sure if it applies to warrior, you keep the sated buff
It makes me wonder if this has always happened or only introduced recently.
Some of the proportions are wrong if you look very closely (in case if you find certain paths missing, it's because obscure build paths with very few occurrences were filtered out), but visually it's fairly simple to see the order of purchase for mid lane Lux (ranked solo queue, plat+, patch 5.18).
Im an uneducated fool, how the fuck do I read that =/
Some of the proportions are wrong if you look very closely (in case if you find certain paths missing, it's because obscure build paths with very few occurrences were filtered out), but visually it's fairly simple to see the order of purchase for mid lane Lux (ranked solo queue, plat+, patch 5.18).
Personally I would like to see % numbers on those bars. I feel like it is a little straining to estimate their size. Especially because the complete bar is not on one screen and you have to scroll. Actually it really needs to fit on one screen.
Ideally it could be turned into an image with all the data written in text on it, and made more visually appealing along the way. But it's a cool way of showing build paths.
Some of the proportions are wrong if you look very closely (in case if you find certain paths missing, it's because obscure build paths with very few occurrences were filtered out), but visually it's fairly simple to see the order of purchase for mid lane Lux (ranked solo queue, plat+, patch 5.18).
Personally I would like to see % numbers on those bars. I feel like it is a little straining to estimate their size. Especially because the complete bar is not on one screen and you have to scroll. Actually it really needs to fit on one screen.
Yes I derped on the sizes.... gonna shrink it a bit.
On September 28 2015 10:05 Ketara wrote: It's almost as though the better way to play is to outrange Veigar than to pick an assassin that he can easily stun in a teamfight.
I feel like we had this conversation already though.
So outrange him with the artillery mages and Jayce? So Xerath, Syndra, Karthus, and Lux? I'm sure I'm forgetting a few others but I think those four (plus Jayce) should do ok vs. Veigar in lane.
I've played alot of Veigar before super-nerfs and started again after recent super-buffs. I honestly dont find long range champions like Jayce, Xerath or Lux that hard to play against. Early boots + MS quints make it fairly easy to avoid their harass, which is pretty much all you need to do to "win" lane and then just scale into a midgame monster.
Annie and Diana are deceptively good against him due to their built-in tankiness and pressure, Annie with her resist 'roid and Diana with Abyssal+Mercs rush, they have high kill pressure and can survive your burst. Well played Orianna and Syndra are pure hell during lane phase and really slow down your ramp, Syndra can utterly destroy you but is much more risky than Orianna.
Ever since silences went away Diana is honestly the only assassin I fear.
On September 28 2015 19:39 DarkCore wrote: Ideally it could be turned into an image with all the data written in text on it, and made more visually appealing along the way. But it's a cool way of showing build paths.
Unfortunately the point of the exercise for me is to learn d3.js. so the interactiveness is intentionally built.
If it's just a picture it would have been a lot simpler for me.
How is Orianna that big of a problem for Veigar? Sure she can hide behind minions and manipulate the ball to make last hitting with aas harder for you, but she can't really zone you because of your Q's range (and it'd make her easy to gank). She's got a steroid with the ball though, but since it has a travel time if it isn't on her you should be able to unload before she can shield herself.
On September 28 2015 21:55 Alaric wrote: How is Orianna that big of a problem for Veigar? Sure she can hide behind minions and manipulate the ball to make last hitting with aas harder for you, but she can't really zone you because of your Q's range (and it'd make her easy to gank). She's got a steroid with the ball though, but since it has a travel time if it isn't on her you should be able to unload before she can shield herself.
The DFG removal made this match up much much harder, you dont have the damage early enough to solo her. In lane she can harass you, while you cannot harass her back - unless she her ball is "mid-move" away, the shield will return fast enough to block your damage - even harder to land damage since Q is no longer point'n'click too. The only thing you got going against her is a much stronger midgame.
Your Q has 950 range (hers is 825) and you've got a lower cooldown (also she loses damage from passing through enemies so hiding behind the lane isn't too big of an issue), do you really lose that much if she shields a Q from time to time? The mana cost grows when leveling while hers remain low though, and you can't realistically expect to always be able to harass her while you last hit a minion with Q.
On September 28 2015 22:26 Alaric wrote: Your Q has 950 range (hers is 825) and you've got a lower cooldown (also she loses damage from passing through enemies so hiding behind the lane isn't too big of an issue), do you really lose that much if she shields a Q from time to time? The mana cost grows when leveling while hers remain low though, and you can't realistically expect to always be able to harass her while you last hit a minion with Q.
The shield combined with bonus MR negates most of your damage so you can never really trade with her. Without good support from your jungle it's very hard to pose any sort of meaningful threat to her, she's more or less free to do whatever she wants.
On September 28 2015 21:55 Alaric wrote: How is Orianna that big of a problem for Veigar? Sure she can hide behind minions and manipulate the ball to make last hitting with aas harder for you, but she can't really zone you because of your Q's range (and it'd make her easy to gank). She's got a steroid with the ball though, but since it has a travel time if it isn't on her you should be able to unload before she can shield herself.
I think you underestimate how strong Orianna is. She can pretty much walk up to a Veigar (pre-6) with Shield + AAs and out-trade him
Veigar doesn't really have a good way to punish her unless he uses E+W but that costs a lot of mana
Oh, I meant in the sense that he doesn't necessarily bully you, you're Veigar so you're not looking to be 3-0 by the time you hit level 6 anyway. You said Orianna was good against him but if she can't actively shove him around (through damage, range or running him oom if he tries to retaliate) then it's not that bad for Veigar, is it?
Maybe I overestimate the 6 base AD nerf she ate awhile ago, but I feel like you can rarely win trades with the level 1 E+aa tactic. You take too much minion damage for it to b worth (and if you step aside the wave then I don't think you can self-cast E on reaction to his Q if you're in aa range so at worst he waits out the shield, but maybe that's just my reaction time being slow :/).
The problem with Veigar is that his E does not do damage and basically cannot land in lane without a jungler. As such, he automatically loses in a trade pre 6.
speaking of which what are people's thoughts on the top+mid lane tps? we've seen competitive diana players taking tp mid as is, and veigar tp mid has been popping up in soloq as well.
On September 28 2015 23:54 nafta wrote: But then you remember teleport exists so its fine and as long as you don't lose too much you outscale mega hard.
You dont really outscale an Orianna mega hard. Veigar lose alot more power than Orianna once stuff like Banshee, QSS, Locket and Mikael's comes online.
On September 29 2015 00:15 Nos- wrote: speaking of which what are people's thoughts on the top+mid lane tps? we've seen competitive diana players taking tp mid as is, and veigar tp mid has been popping up in soloq as well.
TP is IMO the strongest summoner spell if you can get away with it.
On September 28 2015 23:54 nafta wrote: But then you remember teleport exists so its fine and as long as you don't lose too much you outscale mega hard.
You dont really outscale an Orianna mega hard. Veigar lose alot more power than Orianna once stuff like Banshee, QSS, Locket and Mikael's comes online.
On September 29 2015 00:15 Nos- wrote: speaking of which what are people's thoughts on the top+mid lane tps? we've seen competitive diana players taking tp mid as is, and veigar tp mid has been popping up in soloq as well.
TP is IMO the strongest summoner spell if you can get away with it.
i think it's significantly less good in mid lane and only worth taking if you expect to get bodied in lane but the matchup enables you to not need heal or barrier
TP is a nice "get out of jail free" card in lane, but it's really not worth taking it unless it gives you some sort of advantage in counterganking or joining a fight/ flanking after lane phase. You just sacrifice too much pressure otherwise. You can make a 2x2 matrix of strong/weak laner x more/less benefit from tele after laning
On September 28 2015 23:54 nafta wrote: But then you remember teleport exists so its fine and as long as you don't lose too much you outscale mega hard.
You dont really outscale an Orianna mega hard. Veigar lose alot more power than Orianna once stuff like Banshee, QSS, Locket and Mikael's comes online.
On September 29 2015 00:15 Nos- wrote: speaking of which what are people's thoughts on the top+mid lane tps? we've seen competitive diana players taking tp mid as is, and veigar tp mid has been popping up in soloq as well.
TP is IMO the strongest summoner spell if you can get away with it.
veigar also has a lot more power in general so losing more doesn't mean he is weaker. You can outplay ori pretty hard with most champs while you can't really do the same vs veigar. Also forcing multiple items from all of their carries is a pretty fucking big deal.
On September 28 2015 23:54 nafta wrote: But then you remember teleport exists so its fine and as long as you don't lose too much you outscale mega hard.
You dont really outscale an Orianna mega hard. Veigar lose alot more power than Orianna once stuff like Banshee, QSS, Locket and Mikael's comes online.
On September 29 2015 00:15 Nos- wrote: speaking of which what are people's thoughts on the top+mid lane tps? we've seen competitive diana players taking tp mid as is, and veigar tp mid has been popping up in soloq as well.
TP is IMO the strongest summoner spell if you can get away with it.
veigar also has a lot more power in general so losing more doesn't mean he is weaker. You can outplay ori pretty hard with most champs while you can't really do the same vs veigar. Also forcing multiple items from all of their carries is a pretty fucking big deal.
I always think that when I play warwick but "making" people buy items honestly has little impact. Negating your champ in a major way > buying a slightly less desirable item without the stun/meteor on priority champs veigar honestly doesnt offer a lot in competitive play
You only need one or to have cleanse up to win the fight.
I think it's kinda funny how his stun went from being considered utterly worthless to forcing multiple items from people just off everyone forgetting what that shit was like when it was instant.
I think he'd be at a decent happy medium without the additional Q AP.
The unfortunate thing for Veigar, once we see him in competitive (or rather, when we don't), is that QSS/Zhonya's is the default build and all you really do is force it half an item earlier.
On September 28 2015 23:54 nafta wrote: But then you remember teleport exists so its fine and as long as you don't lose too much you outscale mega hard.
You dont really outscale an Orianna mega hard. Veigar lose alot more power than Orianna once stuff like Banshee, QSS, Locket and Mikael's comes online.
On September 29 2015 00:15 Nos- wrote: speaking of which what are people's thoughts on the top+mid lane tps? we've seen competitive diana players taking tp mid as is, and veigar tp mid has been popping up in soloq as well.
TP is IMO the strongest summoner spell if you can get away with it.
veigar also has a lot more power in general so losing more doesn't mean he is weaker. You can outplay ori pretty hard with most champs while you can't really do the same vs veigar. Also forcing multiple items from all of their carries is a pretty fucking big deal.
Said items are more or less core in lategame regardless - sure they are more often than not forced earlier, which is a really huge advantage. Veigar shares, in my opinion, the same trait as Nasus hypescaling if left to do his thing but can be countered pretty hard by items/champions late. Veigar is very strong lategame, but not like a protected full build Kog'Maw that'll just murder death kill everyone.
Might have misunderstood "outscale mega hard", made me think hyper carry vs early game champion levels of outscaling.
On September 29 2015 01:00 Caiada wrote: You only need one or to have cleanse up to win the fight.
I think it's kinda funny how his stun went from being considered utterly worthless to forcing multiple items from people just off everyone forgetting what that shit was like when it was instant.
I think he'd be at a decent happy medium without the additional Q AP.
The unfortunate thing for Veigar, once we see him in competitive (or rather, when we don't), is that QSS/Zhonya's is the default build and all you really do is force it half an item earlier.
This is assuming you are the team engaging in a good position. I used to think the same until I played a few games vs veigar.
Depends on how your playstyle I guess. Froggen always runs TP, farms the whole time (I mean, he has insane wave control, so he can do it), uses it to come back to lane outside of the occasional roam, and waits out until he can blow people up. It's a 'safer' way to play, considering that he's constantly facing his counters like Yasuo/Zed.
On September 28 2015 22:26 Alaric wrote: Your Q has 950 range (hers is 825) and you've got a lower cooldown (also she loses damage from passing through enemies so hiding behind the lane isn't too big of an issue), do you really lose that much if she shields a Q from time to time? The mana cost grows when leveling while hers remain low though, and you can't realistically expect to always be able to harass her while you last hit a minion with Q.
Ori's Q range is actually 1000. The ball has a radius of 175 so a max range Q hits enemies to 1000 range. You're well within her ball range if you can hit a Q.
Plus ori can just auto attack you in lane for +10 and .15 AP to +14 and .21 AP. At level 1 three auto attacks from Ori do about as much bonus damage as your Q and since she has a shield which gives bonus MR its really hard for you to do anything.
After actually playing some League, it seems like the "most common" and "highest winrate" item builds on Champion.gg are usually woefully optimistic and seem to suffer from this weird retrospective data selection bias.
Same goes for for "best" way to level up skills, since the highest winrate ability order on most junglers seems to be any ranged CC even if it blows for clearing, presumably because you invaded lvl 1 and got something.
On September 30 2015 02:13 Zess wrote: After actually playing some League, it seems like the "most common" and "highest winrate" item builds on Champion.gg are usually woefully optimistic and seem to suffer from this weird retrospective data selection bias.
Same goes for for "best" way to level up skills, since the highest winrate ability order on most junglers seems to be any ranged CC even if it blows for clearing, presumably because you invaded lvl 1 and got something.
Which is why I only look at popular builds, not highest win rate.
So when asked about problems with ADCs on AskFM Ghostcrawler said this.
4. The entire power curve of weak early, strong late can make counterplay hard to solve. It's not counterplay to say "You shoulda stopped me 20 minutes ago, bro."
well I mean ghostcrawler is the king of bad design so not surprising. He has a really narrow mind and seems to want everything really homogenized where characters are only distinguished by the person playing them, not the actual champion itself.
Its lame because late game champs are the only champs I enjoy, its really satisfying to grind out a hard 20-30 minutes and then be able to take the other team on 1v3.
problem is they are terrible at making these kinds of champ and they usually end up as "minor or nonexistant struggle and then 1v3 anyway"
On September 30 2015 03:34 Ansibled wrote: So when asked about problems with ADCs on AskFM Ghostcrawler said this.
4. The entire power curve of weak early, strong late can make counterplay hard to solve. It's not counterplay to say "You shoulda stopped me 20 minutes ago, bro."
This seems kind of dumb to me.
Uh, I thought scaling and hyper carries were a fundamental aspect of the game. I mean, I could understand if he said 'A champion should not be a strong lane bully and also outscale their counterpart', but what he said seems sort of strange because it would mean they'd have to uproot the game from the bottom up...
On September 30 2015 03:34 Ansibled wrote: So when asked about problems with ADCs on AskFM Ghostcrawler said this.
4. The entire power curve of weak early, strong late can make counterplay hard to solve. It's not counterplay to say "You shoulda stopped me 20 minutes ago, bro."
This seems kind of dumb to me.
Here' the full copy pasta instead of just picking and choosing things TL will get mad over:
I often still see people calling Marksmen (ADC's) whiny for wanting their role to be changed but riot are doing some Marksmen changes. What do you personally think is the main issues and problems with the role? if any at all? 1. Being auto-attack focused can easily lead to lack of differentiation among all the other champs that are also auto-attack focused. 2. The need for Marksmen to take towers makes it really hard to evaluate whether they are too weak or not. Assassins just disappear when they aren't viable. Marksmen will likely never disappear. They just limp along if weak. 3. The player vision for "carry" can carry (ahem) some unrealistic expectations. We get some amount of "I'm not getting pentas, so I must be weak." 4. The entire power curve of weak early, strong late can make counterplay hard to solve. It's not counterplay to say "You shoulda stopped me 20 minutes ago, bro." 5. Lack of interesting item choices. 6. Overreliance on the RNG of crit. 7. Can't effectively play different roles or lanes but has a monopoly on bot lane (except for Morde). 8. They can kill squishies in so few shots late game that we kind of hit a power wall where we can't add any more power. 9. Ranged squishy means duels can be very one-sided. If I kite, I take no damage. If melee close, I deal no damage. 10. Built heavily into a team-fight role. This is overall a good thing for design, but tough on solo queue where you can't rely on coordination from a team to keep the Marksman alive. 11. So reliant on gaining gold and XP early that you can feel like you're playing your own minigame before actually joining the game later. This one is debatable and could be argued that it's interesting overall. 12. Always lots of interest in AP builds, but we struggle to make them feel balanced. 13. Since we're thematically tied to "dude with gun or bow" it can make new champion design challenging. This is more of a whiny developer problem and I'd say we did pretty well with Kindred.
Lol I love those bullet points. Some of them are deep theorycrafting questions, it's like philosophy for games
2. The need for Marksmen to take towers makes it really hard to evaluate whether they are too weak or not. Assassins just disappear when they aren't viable. Marksmen will likely never disappear. They just limp along if weak.
I don't see how that's really a problem you can address. Towers are taken down by AA, not spells. Therefore champions that can AA a lot take down towers. Marksman builds towards hitting a lot of AA, therefore Marksman kills towers the best. Unless Riot changes the way towers are destroyed I don't see how that would change.
11. So reliant on gaining gold and XP early that you can feel like you're playing your own minigame before actually joining the game later. This one is debatable and could be argued that it's interesting overall.
That depends on how you play, some players prefer grouping and other prefer farming (Talking about soloQ here). Although it is true you want to farm most of the time, it's not like other lanes don't want to do the same, unless there's a better gold source somewhere (aka killing enemies and taking objectives).
5. Lack of interesting item choices.
Idk why Riot isn't willing to release ADC items with similar stats but different perks. Game needs more damage items that have more interesting abilities. Ex: reduced CC, a shield, on hit magic dmg, bonus AS on crit, a mini flash, temporary stealth blah blah blah. If the items have similar build paths, then you can't stack them so you can't have everything and have to choose smartly. Instead we're stuck with Berserkers/IE/SS/LW/BT as core, throw in a defensive item or BotRK, all those items give only raw damage as a stat, except BT shield and BotRK active. Riot dug their own grave in that regard.
On September 30 2015 03:34 Ansibled wrote: So when asked about problems with ADCs on AskFM Ghostcrawler said this.
4. The entire power curve of weak early, strong late can make counterplay hard to solve. It's not counterplay to say "You shoulda stopped me 20 minutes ago, bro."
This seems kind of dumb to me.
How about the slew of "we're gonna make all these weaker early and stronger later" in most buffs, eh? Na, Viktor, Darius, etc. don't exist.
2. The need for Marksmen to take towers makes it really hard to evaluate whether they are too weak or not. Assassins just disappear when they aren't viable. Marksmen will likely never disappear. They just limp along if weak.
I don't see how that's really a problem you can address. Towers are taken down by AA, not spells. Therefore champions that can AA a lot take down towers. Marksman builds towards hitting a lot of AA, therefore Marksman kills towers the best. Unless Riot changes the way towers are destroyed I don't see how that would change.
I still don't understand why has nobody mentioned how adcs completely dominate bot lane with support 2v2 as a big reason for them being here AND being much better at zoning from the wave after freezing.
I don't think AD's are all that great at taking towers until they hit like 3 items though... a mid with some AP or some other role who builds damage/has sheen or even an AA reset takes towers better until around midgame or later.
"Should have stopped me 20 minutes ago" isn't really a valid point. If the enemy team is gonna draft a lategame carry, you counter that by picking a comp that's strong earlier on to gain a lead and delay or deny their carry from coming online. That's how having champs with different power curves work. Does Riot want to go to League of Bruisers again or something?
On September 30 2015 04:41 nafta wrote: I still don't understand why has nobody mentioned how adcs completely dominate bot lane with support 2v2 as a big reason for them being here AND being much better at zoning from the wave after freezing.
Unless your name is Teutonica and you carry with Fiora ADC.
On September 30 2015 04:47 ticklishmusic wrote: I don't think AD's are all that great at taking towers until they hit like 3 items though... a mid with some AP or some other role who builds damage/has sheen or even an AA reset takes towers better until around midgame or later.
"Should have stopped me 20 minutes ago" isn't really a valid point. If the enemy team is gonna draft a lategame carry, you counter that by picking a comp that's strong earlier on to gain a lead and delay or deny their carry from coming online. That's how having champs with different power curves work. Does Riot want to go to League of Bruisers again or something?
Actually the difference in atk speed is very important for walking up hitting once and walking out.
On September 30 2015 02:13 Zess wrote: After actually playing some League, it seems like the "most common" and "highest winrate" item builds on Champion.gg are usually woefully optimistic and seem to suffer from this weird retrospective data selection bias.
Same goes for for "best" way to level up skills, since the highest winrate ability order on most junglers seems to be any ranged CC even if it blows for clearing, presumably because you invaded lvl 1 and got something.
The main issue is that the "best" build is highly likely to be the build that you get when you are already winning. The winning build might be the build you get when already fed, not the build that gets you fed.
On September 30 2015 04:41 nafta wrote: I still don't understand why has nobody mentioned how adcs completely dominate bot lane with support 2v2 as a big reason for them being here AND being much better at zoning from the wave after freezing.
Mordekaiser works, not to mention there are plenty of cheezy as fuck double bruiser botlane that can kick quite a few botlane combos asses.
I think with the new champ, I think Riot is trying to introduce a tower taker in the jungle position, so it can free up botlane for more combos.
On September 30 2015 04:41 nafta wrote: I still don't understand why has nobody mentioned how adcs completely dominate bot lane with support 2v2 as a big reason for them being here AND being much better at zoning from the wave after freezing.
Mordekaiser works, not to mention there are plenty of cheezy as fuck double bruiser botlane that can kick quite a few botlane combos asses.
I think with the new champ, I think Riot is trying to introduce a tower taker in the jungle position, so it can free up botlane for more combos.
except they don't. They work only because nobody plays them.
And morde is the only champ that is designed with the idea to duo lane.
If they really want to shake things up they should allow single target spells to damage towers. That'd probably be a significant recode though and more drastic than Riot wants at the moment.
On September 30 2015 04:41 nafta wrote: I still don't understand why has nobody mentioned how adcs completely dominate bot lane with support 2v2 as a big reason for them being here AND being much better at zoning from the wave after freezing.
Mordekaiser works, not to mention there are plenty of cheezy as fuck double bruiser botlane that can kick quite a few botlane combos asses.
I think with the new champ, I think Riot is trying to introduce a tower taker in the jungle position, so it can free up botlane for more combos.
except they don't. They work only because nobody plays them.
And morde is the only champ that is designed with the idea to duo lane.
On September 30 2015 04:41 nafta wrote: I still don't understand why has nobody mentioned how adcs completely dominate bot lane with support 2v2 as a big reason for them being here AND being much better at zoning from the wave after freezing.
Mordekaiser works, not to mention there are plenty of cheezy as fuck double bruiser botlane that can kick quite a few botlane combos asses.
I think with the new champ, I think Riot is trying to introduce a tower taker in the jungle position, so it can free up botlane for more combos.
except they don't. They work only because nobody plays them.
And morde is the only champ that is designed with the idea to duo lane.
I don't get this logic? If it works, it works.
The logic is that if they became standard they wouldn't work. Curveballs like double bruiser bots have a leg up because people don't know how to play correctly, or even half decently, against them.
On September 30 2015 04:41 nafta wrote: I still don't understand why has nobody mentioned how adcs completely dominate bot lane with support 2v2 as a big reason for them being here AND being much better at zoning from the wave after freezing.
Mordekaiser works, not to mention there are plenty of cheezy as fuck double bruiser botlane that can kick quite a few botlane combos asses.
I think with the new champ, I think Riot is trying to introduce a tower taker in the jungle position, so it can free up botlane for more combos.
except they don't. They work only because nobody plays them.
And morde is the only champ that is designed with the idea to duo lane.
I don't get this logic? If it works, it works.
That's probably because you haven't played properly against anything in your life.
All sorts of cheese bullshit 'works' but if it ever works well enough to be used commonly, it will be, it will then be solved, and it will then probably be shit. The broader the strategy you're looking at, the more likely it is we've already figured out the optimum.
On September 30 2015 04:41 nafta wrote: I still don't understand why has nobody mentioned how adcs completely dominate bot lane with support 2v2 as a big reason for them being here AND being much better at zoning from the wave after freezing.
Mordekaiser works, not to mention there are plenty of cheezy as fuck double bruiser botlane that can kick quite a few botlane combos asses.
I think with the new champ, I think Riot is trying to introduce a tower taker in the jungle position, so it can free up botlane for more combos.
except they don't. They work only because nobody plays them.
And morde is the only champ that is designed with the idea to duo lane.
I don't get this logic? If it works, it works.
The logic is that if they became standard they wouldn't work. Curveballs like double bruiser bots have a leg up because people don't know how to play correctly, or even half decently, against them.
On September 30 2015 04:41 nafta wrote: I still don't understand why has nobody mentioned how adcs completely dominate bot lane with support 2v2 as a big reason for them being here AND being much better at zoning from the wave after freezing.
Mordekaiser works, not to mention there are plenty of cheezy as fuck double bruiser botlane that can kick quite a few botlane combos asses.
I think with the new champ, I think Riot is trying to introduce a tower taker in the jungle position, so it can free up botlane for more combos.
except they don't. They work only because nobody plays them.
And morde is the only champ that is designed with the idea to duo lane.
I don't get this logic? If it works, it works.
That's probably because you haven't played properly against anything in your life.
The whole point of picking champions in pick/ban in solo queue is to pick something that you have knowledge or skill gap so you can exploit the difference in skill/knowledge in certain matchups.
I don't see how double/bruiser, or how other cheezy shit doesn't fall in this exact same category.
On September 30 2015 06:22 Caiada wrote: All sorts of cheese bullshit 'works' but if it ever works well enough to be used commonly, it will be, it will then be solved, and it will then probably be shit. The broader the strategy you're looking at, the more likely it is we've already figured out the optimum.
If it works now, why not play it now? Then when it doesn't work, you stop playing it. Whoa, mind blown!
On September 30 2015 06:22 Caiada wrote: All sorts of cheese bullshit 'works' but if it ever works well enough to be used commonly, it will be, it will then be solved, and it will then probably be shit. The broader the strategy you're looking at, the more likely it is we've already figured out the optimum.
I think you vastly overestimate the League of Legends community.
I'm as cynical about it as anybody on this board, probably more so, but there's tens of millions of people playing this game. Do you know how much more shit China figures out about D3 just because they've got a few million people playing it? And LoL is almost certainly bigger.
On September 30 2015 07:15 nafta wrote: Well then play it if you think it works.
I thought it was obvious when people talk viability it is for pro play but guess not. Soloq is just a shitfest it doesn't matter.
On September 30 2015 04:47 ticklishmusic wrote: I don't think AD's are all that great at taking towers until they hit like 3 items though... a mid with some AP or some other role who builds damage/has sheen or even an AA reset takes towers better until around midgame or later.
"Should have stopped me 20 minutes ago" isn't really a valid point. If the enemy team is gonna draft a lategame carry, you counter that by picking a comp that's strong earlier on to gain a lead and delay or deny their carry from coming online. That's how having champs with different power curves work. Does Riot want to go to League of Bruisers again or something?
Actually the difference in atk speed is very important for walking up hitting once and walking out.
Also attack range. AP with lichbane takes towers super fast, but not many AP's can get Lichbane in a reasonable amount of time. Really AD's get really good at taking down towers with 1-2 items and the third not really having much of an effect.
On September 30 2015 04:47 ticklishmusic wrote: I don't think AD's are all that great at taking towers until they hit like 3 items though... a mid with some AP or some other role who builds damage/has sheen or even an AA reset takes towers better until around midgame or later.
"Should have stopped me 20 minutes ago" isn't really a valid point. If the enemy team is gonna draft a lategame carry, you counter that by picking a comp that's strong earlier on to gain a lead and delay or deny their carry from coming online. That's how having champs with different power curves work. Does Riot want to go to League of Bruisers again or something?
Actually the difference in atk speed is very important for walking up hitting once and walking out.
Also attack range. AP with lichbane takes towers super fast, but not many AP's can get Lichbane in a reasonable amount of time. Really AD's get really good at taking down towers with 1-2 items and the third not really having much of an effect.
Well I didn't mention the atk range cuz it depends. Right now with trist/jinx/kog all being popular there is a big difference but the other ads are close to the mages. Having a dash on low cd or spell shield can compensate for it since most mages don't have one as well.
On September 30 2015 04:47 ticklishmusic wrote: I don't think AD's are all that great at taking towers until they hit like 3 items though... a mid with some AP or some other role who builds damage/has sheen or even an AA reset takes towers better until around midgame or later.
"Should have stopped me 20 minutes ago" isn't really a valid point. If the enemy team is gonna draft a lategame carry, you counter that by picking a comp that's strong earlier on to gain a lead and delay or deny their carry from coming online. That's how having champs with different power curves work. Does Riot want to go to League of Bruisers again or something?
Actually the difference in atk speed is very important for walking up hitting once and walking out.
Also attack range. AP with lichbane takes towers super fast, but not many AP's can get Lichbane in a reasonable amount of time. Really AD's get really good at taking down towers with 1-2 items and the third not really having much of an effect.
Well I didn't mention the atk range cuz it depends. Right now with trist/jinx/kog all being popular there is a big difference but the other ads are close to the mages. Having a dash on low cd or spell shield can compensate for it since most mages don't have one as well.
Well almost every AD has something to help them knock down towers. If its not range its an AS/AD steroid, or an attack reset, or the ability to build triforce well and get that sweet sweet bonus damage.
The only marksman who don't have anything like that seem to be Quinn (unless creeps are around), Twitch (unrealistic to stealth to hit towers, but possible), and Kalista(actually legitimately no steroids against towers)
On September 30 2015 04:41 nafta wrote: I still don't understand why has nobody mentioned how adcs completely dominate bot lane with support 2v2 as a big reason for them being here AND being much better at zoning from the wave after freezing.
Mordekaiser works, not to mention there are plenty of cheezy as fuck double bruiser botlane that can kick quite a few botlane combos asses.
I think with the new champ, I think Riot is trying to introduce a tower taker in the jungle position, so it can free up botlane for more combos.
except they don't. They work only because nobody plays them.
And morde is the only champ that is designed with the idea to duo lane.
I don't get this logic? If it works, it works.
The logic is that if they became standard they wouldn't work. Curveballs like double bruiser bots have a leg up because people don't know how to play correctly, or even half decently, against them.
Well really the argument is that they don't work, and that they only "work" in the sense that you can win games not that you have a high probability of winning games.
I think is very likely that that is true. Double Bruiser works in the sense that you can get ahead and snowball an engage comp off of the raw base stats of a melee champion. But if you can't snowball you will almost certainly lose the game. The exceptions of course being the insanity that is Morde..