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Well, can't blame them. Wildturtle has been terrible lately
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Just waiting for the axe to fall at this point.
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Bearded Elder29875 Posts
Best of luck to KEITH. Spamming duo on twitter to Dyrus and others worked fine for him :D
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sidenote: good guy steve!
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Probably for the best for the team, but sad to see Turtle being so down lately. Seeing Turtle sad is like seeing a sad puppy. It just shouldn't happen. I'd like to think he can get his shit together, but if Regi's honest and he gave both Turtle and Dyrus the warning to shape up after MSI and Turtle is still playing this way, he's probably done.
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I feel like if the other lanes dont step up soon for TSM (mostly just bot at this point), very soon Bjergsen will be donezo.
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On June 23 2015 04:27 HyperST wrote: I feel like if the other lanes dont step up soon for TSM (mostly just bot at this point), very soon Bjergsen will be donezo. Done with TSM?
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WHAT THE DOODLE SHNOGIN -_- I am now sad, even though turtle hasn't been playing his greatest they (annalists, coach, etc) should at least try a little bit harder to get him up to speed on his game play. Don't disagree with bringing Keith in, just sad.
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On June 23 2015 04:37 Marmy wrote: WHAT THE DOODLE SHNOGIN -_- I am now sad, even though turtle hasn't been playing his greatest they (annalists, coach, etc) should at least try a little bit harder to get him up to speed on his game play. Don't disagree with bringing Keith in, just sad. Well according to the video they did try help him since MSI. Never thought I'd see Turtle sad.
Cry havoc and let slip the KEITH!
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On June 23 2015 04:27 HyperST wrote: I feel like if the other lanes dont step up soon for TSM (mostly just bot at this point), very soon Bjergsen will be donezo.
TSM is way too good an organization to willing leave.
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On June 23 2015 04:37 Marmy wrote: WHAT THE DOODLE SHNOGIN -_- I am now sad, even though turtle hasn't been playing his greatest they (annalists, coach, etc) should at least try a little bit harder to get him up to speed on his game play. Don't disagree with bringing Keith in, just sad. If what Regi says in the video is true, then they did try to shore up WT's play, just as they did with Dyrus. The problem is that whereas Dyrus stepped up post-MSI, WT didn't.
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Reminds me of Chaox all over again, probably has lack of practice due to a girl
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On June 23 2015 04:43 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 04:27 HyperST wrote: I feel like if the other lanes dont step up soon for TSM (mostly just bot at this point), very soon Bjergsen will be donezo. TSM is way too good an organization to willing leave.
That depends if Bjergsen wants money or wants to win Worlds. He might go back to Europe and join a top team there for a better chance if TSM doesn't shape up.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On June 23 2015 04:45 MooMooMugi wrote: Reminds me of Chaox all over again, probably has lack of practice due to a girl
Can we just stop with it, lol. Nothing prevented Alex Ich from being dominant mid despite being married for almost 2 years at this point.
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On June 23 2015 04:45 HyperST wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 04:43 Numy wrote:On June 23 2015 04:27 HyperST wrote: I feel like if the other lanes dont step up soon for TSM (mostly just bot at this point), very soon Bjergsen will be donezo. TSM is way too good an organization to willing leave. That depends if Bjergsen wants money or wants to win Worlds. He might go back to Europe and join a top team there for a better chance if TSM doesn't shape up.
Joining any Western team won't really let him win worlds though. It's improving chance from 0% to 5%. I think any smart player will just stay on TSM.
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Huge fan of Regi, always looking to make the right move for the team to do well.
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On June 23 2015 04:45 HyperST wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 04:43 Numy wrote:On June 23 2015 04:27 HyperST wrote: I feel like if the other lanes dont step up soon for TSM (mostly just bot at this point), very soon Bjergsen will be donezo. TSM is way too good an organization to willing leave. That depends if Bjergsen wants money or wants to win Worlds. He might go back to Europe and join a top team there for a better chance if TSM doesn't shape up. That's...not how it works at all. His contract expires at the end of 2018 so unless there's a major falling out between him and TSM they have no reason to let him go. http://na.lolesports.com/na-lcs/2015/summer/players/bjergsen
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On June 23 2015 05:13 bbc23 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 04:45 HyperST wrote:On June 23 2015 04:43 Numy wrote:On June 23 2015 04:27 HyperST wrote: I feel like if the other lanes dont step up soon for TSM (mostly just bot at this point), very soon Bjergsen will be donezo. TSM is way too good an organization to willing leave. That depends if Bjergsen wants money or wants to win Worlds. He might go back to Europe and join a top team there for a better chance if TSM doesn't shape up. That's...not how it works at all. His contract expires at the end of 2018 so unless there's a major falling out between him and TSM they have no reason to let him go. http://na.lolesports.com/na-lcs/2015/summer/players/bjergsen
I am pretty sure contract can be bought out by another organization if Bjergsen really wants to leave.
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On June 23 2015 05:31 HyperST wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 05:13 bbc23 wrote:On June 23 2015 04:45 HyperST wrote:On June 23 2015 04:43 Numy wrote:On June 23 2015 04:27 HyperST wrote: I feel like if the other lanes dont step up soon for TSM (mostly just bot at this point), very soon Bjergsen will be donezo. TSM is way too good an organization to willing leave. That depends if Bjergsen wants money or wants to win Worlds. He might go back to Europe and join a top team there for a better chance if TSM doesn't shape up. That's...not how it works at all. His contract expires at the end of 2018 so unless there's a major falling out between him and TSM they have no reason to let him go. http://na.lolesports.com/na-lcs/2015/summer/players/bjergsen I am pretty sure contract can be bought out by another organization if Bjergsen really wants to leave. If there is a buyout clause sure. Not all contracts have a buyout clause though. Some buyouts also have to be a mutual decision between player/organization.
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On June 23 2015 05:31 HyperST wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 05:13 bbc23 wrote:On June 23 2015 04:45 HyperST wrote:On June 23 2015 04:43 Numy wrote:On June 23 2015 04:27 HyperST wrote: I feel like if the other lanes dont step up soon for TSM (mostly just bot at this point), very soon Bjergsen will be donezo. TSM is way too good an organization to willing leave. That depends if Bjergsen wants money or wants to win Worlds. He might go back to Europe and join a top team there for a better chance if TSM doesn't shape up. That's...not how it works at all. His contract expires at the end of 2018 so unless there's a major falling out between him and TSM they have no reason to let him go. http://na.lolesports.com/na-lcs/2015/summer/players/bjergsen I am pretty sure contract can be bought out by another organization if Bjergsen really wants to leave. If TSM agrees to it.
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On June 23 2015 05:40 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 05:31 HyperST wrote:On June 23 2015 05:13 bbc23 wrote:On June 23 2015 04:45 HyperST wrote:On June 23 2015 04:43 Numy wrote:On June 23 2015 04:27 HyperST wrote: I feel like if the other lanes dont step up soon for TSM (mostly just bot at this point), very soon Bjergsen will be donezo. TSM is way too good an organization to willing leave. That depends if Bjergsen wants money or wants to win Worlds. He might go back to Europe and join a top team there for a better chance if TSM doesn't shape up. That's...not how it works at all. His contract expires at the end of 2018 so unless there's a major falling out between him and TSM they have no reason to let him go. http://na.lolesports.com/na-lcs/2015/summer/players/bjergsen I am pretty sure contract can be bought out by another organization if Bjergsen really wants to leave. If TSM agrees to it.
Pretty sure if there is a buyout clause and the opposing team/player wants out, player can pay for it and tsm cannot stop him. Though usually buyouts are absurdly high though, wouldn't doubt if bjersen's buyout was more than 100k+.
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On June 23 2015 05:47 NonConGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 05:40 Gahlo wrote:On June 23 2015 05:31 HyperST wrote:On June 23 2015 05:13 bbc23 wrote:On June 23 2015 04:45 HyperST wrote:On June 23 2015 04:43 Numy wrote:On June 23 2015 04:27 HyperST wrote: I feel like if the other lanes dont step up soon for TSM (mostly just bot at this point), very soon Bjergsen will be donezo. TSM is way too good an organization to willing leave. That depends if Bjergsen wants money or wants to win Worlds. He might go back to Europe and join a top team there for a better chance if TSM doesn't shape up. That's...not how it works at all. His contract expires at the end of 2018 so unless there's a major falling out between him and TSM they have no reason to let him go. http://na.lolesports.com/na-lcs/2015/summer/players/bjergsen I am pretty sure contract can be bought out by another organization if Bjergsen really wants to leave. If TSM agrees to it. Pretty sure if there is a buyout clause and the opposing team/player wants out, player can pay for it and tsm cannot stop him. Though usually buyouts are absurdly high though, wouldn't doubt if bjersen's buyout was more than 100k+. Except if the team wants to do it they need to talk to the player about it, which requires going through TSM to avoid Riot's poaching rules. Doubt buyouts are low enough for a player to void their own contract.
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On June 23 2015 05:47 NonConGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 05:40 Gahlo wrote:On June 23 2015 05:31 HyperST wrote:On June 23 2015 05:13 bbc23 wrote:On June 23 2015 04:45 HyperST wrote:On June 23 2015 04:43 Numy wrote:On June 23 2015 04:27 HyperST wrote: I feel like if the other lanes dont step up soon for TSM (mostly just bot at this point), very soon Bjergsen will be donezo. TSM is way too good an organization to willing leave. That depends if Bjergsen wants money or wants to win Worlds. He might go back to Europe and join a top team there for a better chance if TSM doesn't shape up. That's...not how it works at all. His contract expires at the end of 2018 so unless there's a major falling out between him and TSM they have no reason to let him go. http://na.lolesports.com/na-lcs/2015/summer/players/bjergsen I am pretty sure contract can be bought out by another organization if Bjergsen really wants to leave. If TSM agrees to it. Pretty sure if there is a buyout clause and the opposing team/player wants out, player can pay for it and tsm cannot stop him. Though usually buyouts are absurdly high though, wouldn't doubt if bjersen's buyout was more than 100k+. You mean a month if bjergsen streaming during off season?lol.
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Bjergsen leaving TSM lol. He will nowhere earn even half the amount as on TSM with streaming included. And you have no guarantees that your next team will actually perform better. Also I dont get why people always talk as if TSM is going down. They are still second in NA even with the problems they have.
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Great move by TSM I think. Hard to say if Keith will work out but you need to at least put pressure on Turtle. I'd do the same for top lane though I'm not as down on Dyrus as some are.
If Turtle outperforms Keith in practice and starts playing better on stage, great. If not, you bring in Keith.
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In any case I believe TSM wants to keep at least 2 NA players to not lose popularity/brand value.
If they get Keith they might even gain popularity which makes this a very reasonable move.
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On June 23 2015 06:25 MajorityofOne wrote: Great move by TSM I think. Hard to say if Keith will work out but you need to at least put pressure on Turtle. I'd do the same for top lane though I'm not as down on Dyrus as some are.
If Turtle outperforms Keith in practice and starts playing better on stage, great. If not, you bring in Keith. Dyrus' play has gotten a lot better recently, no need to.
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On June 23 2015 06:34 krndandaman wrote: lol
I don't think keith is the solution to TSM performing at worlds but I guess this is a good step in lighting a fire under turtle's ass and potentially getting a slight upgrade if keith out performs him. Well it shouldnt be hard to outperform this guy.
I tell you that Renegades going to buy Turtle when Keith takes his spot.
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Well, my heart is sad but my fantasy team will probably thank Regi. I'm sure my fantasy points were one of the main deciding factors in this huge, organization changing decision.
I wonder if this will actually turn into anything for Keith, or if he will just be used perpetually by teams to "motivate" their ADCs. I hope the best for everyone involved. I'm a big fan of both players, so hopefully everything works out well for everyone (even though from the outside it seems awkward as all hell right now).
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Wow, if Keith gets this, he's going to be making a lot of cash for an 18 year old with that TSM stream viewer buff. I'm jelly
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On June 23 2015 07:07 RagequitBM wrote: Wow, if Keith gets this, he's going to be making a lot of cash for an 18 year old with that TSM stream viewer buff. I'm jelly He knows whats at stake, calling it a "once in a lifetime opportunity".
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On June 23 2015 06:51 MrSparkle wrote: Well, my heart is sad but my fantasy team will probably thank Regi. I'm sure my fantasy points were one of the main deciding factors in this huge, organization changing decision.
I wonder if this will actually turn into anything for Keith, or if he will just be used perpetually by teams to "motivate" their ADCs. I hope the best for everyone involved. I'm a big fan of both players, so hopefully everything works out well for everyone (even though from the outside it seems awkward as all hell right now). When will people learn that game performance doesn't matter when it comes to fantasy performance?
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And they can still upgrade toplane.
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On June 23 2015 07:18 TitusVI wrote: And they can still upgrade toplane. How can they replace Dyrus because unless they getting a korean top laner I don't think there is a good replace to him atm. Maybe Zorozero is Zoro decides to come back to competitive play but that's it.
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On June 23 2015 07:18 TitusVI wrote: And they can still upgrade toplane.
last couple games I saw of dyrus he looked like one of the best NA top lanes
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On June 23 2015 07:22 travis wrote:last couple games I saw of dyrus he looked like one of the best NA top lanes
I agree. His trading and 1v1 aggression still needs work. But damn that TP timing, flanking, and general map awareness has been at the top of NA by far. His Gnar rage bar control has been something I credited him for since week 2.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
Dyrus has been playing very well, he might not lane like zionspartan or gamsu but he's been very solid and more aware of his limits in lane than before but his teamfighting and TP usage has been top notch. TSM has been giving him more to work with but he's probably the second best performer right now on TSM tbh.
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On June 23 2015 07:22 travis wrote:last couple games I saw of dyrus he looked like one of the best NA top lanes I don't know how you can say this when we just saw Gamsu shit stomp the living shit out of scrubs this past weekend.
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Replacing Santorin should be priority.
He is doing three man gank mid for two times then he is off to his jungle. You cant see him till TSM decides to take dragon.
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On June 23 2015 07:33 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 07:22 travis wrote:On June 23 2015 07:18 TitusVI wrote: And they can still upgrade toplane. last couple games I saw of dyrus he looked like one of the best NA top lanes I don't know how you can say this when we just saw Gamsu shit stomp the living shit out of scrubs this past weekend.
Just because Gamsu looks amazing doesn't mean Dyrus doesn't look like one of the best top laners. Impact didn't look great, Quas looked bad, Hauntzer was pretty good, Flarez is too inconsistent, Cali is throwlord, Zion is doing well but his TPs or lack of feel a bit odd and Balls is bad. So yea Dyrus is looking like top 2/3 top laner in NA atm.
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On June 23 2015 07:33 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 07:22 travis wrote:On June 23 2015 07:18 TitusVI wrote: And they can still upgrade toplane. last couple games I saw of dyrus he looked like one of the best NA top lanes I don't know how you can say this when we just saw Gamsu shit stomp the living shit out of scrubs this past weekend.
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On June 23 2015 07:37 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 07:33 wei2coolman wrote:On June 23 2015 07:22 travis wrote:On June 23 2015 07:18 TitusVI wrote: And they can still upgrade toplane. last couple games I saw of dyrus he looked like one of the best NA top lanes I don't know how you can say this when we just saw Gamsu shit stomp the living shit out of scrubs this past weekend. Just because Gamsu looks amazing doesn't mean Dyrus doesn't look like one of the best top laners. Impact didn't look great, Quas looked bad, Hauntzer was pretty good, Flarez is too inconsistent, Cali is throwlord, Zion is doing well but his TPs or lack of feel a bit odd and Balls is bad. So yea Dyrus is looking like top 2/3 top laner in NA atm. Well you just explained it yourself. Everyone is so bad in NA that Dyrus looking good.
He still has no chance against Marin/Koro/Duke/Huni/Acorn and list go on...
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On June 23 2015 07:38 HyperST wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 07:33 wei2coolman wrote:On June 23 2015 07:22 travis wrote:On June 23 2015 07:18 TitusVI wrote: And they can still upgrade toplane. last couple games I saw of dyrus he looked like one of the best NA top lanes I don't know how you can say this when we just saw Gamsu shit stomp the living shit out of scrubs this past weekend. dyrus can't even win lane against scrubs, your point? also one of those scrubs was quas.
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I'm surprised at the amount of hate Regi is getting though. Obviously as a TSM fan myself, it would sadden me to see WT leave but I think Regi's decision to tryout Keith was a win-win situation, as it'd either motivate WT to improve or bring in a fresh young player.
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Yeah TSM fans hating on Regi for this seems silly. I don't like the guy but he's never shied away from the tough call and it's probably the definitive factor that has kept TSM on top so consistently.
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On June 23 2015 07:44 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 07:38 HyperST wrote:On June 23 2015 07:33 wei2coolman wrote:On June 23 2015 07:22 travis wrote:On June 23 2015 07:18 TitusVI wrote: And they can still upgrade toplane. last couple games I saw of dyrus he looked like one of the best NA top lanes I don't know how you can say this when we just saw Gamsu shit stomp the living shit out of scrubs this past weekend. dyrus can't even win lane against scrubs, your point? also one of those scrubs was quas.
Helios camped Gamsu's lane like crazy while Santorin rarely even went up to top lane for a gank. While DIG is more top heavy with mid and bot playing support roles, TSM only helps top for counterganks, which is more than before but that doesn't equal to top priority like DIG. This also means that while Gamsu gets to snowball his leads on carries such as J4 and Hec, Dyrus only has access to Gnar, which you can tell by his item choices that he builds for team fights and not rushing Black Cleaver to 1v1 like Zion does.
Therefore, you can only judge a top laner by their respective roles. Sure, Dyrus does not aggressively go for 1v1s, but he makes up for it in team play. Yes, Gamsu gets the support for him to snowball, but then (on his J4 game) he had such a huge lead on J4, which is usually GG except he repeatedly dove the backline without his teammates and basically suicided in team fights, making the game a 53minute slug fest. So how can you say one top laner is definitively better than the other when they have different roles? Or do you only judge by kills?
Also, Quas and Impact have been drop the ball hard this week especially in the early game. Beating them doesn't reward Gamsu with a medal since TSM also beat TL and TiP.
Context is everything. And in my first comment I did not say Dyrus was the best when it came to laning and 1v1.
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the older this game gets more convoluted I feel like the phrase 'wining lane' has become
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On June 23 2015 08:23 Slusher wrote: the older this game gets more convoluted I feel like the phrase 'wining lane' has become
Agreed. So much of "winning the lane" comes down to how your team prioritises your farm and plays the laneswap in general. It's not as simple as looking at how much farm someone has gotten in the first 15 minutes.
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
On June 23 2015 07:57 HyperST wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 07:44 wei2coolman wrote:On June 23 2015 07:38 HyperST wrote:On June 23 2015 07:33 wei2coolman wrote:On June 23 2015 07:22 travis wrote:On June 23 2015 07:18 TitusVI wrote: And they can still upgrade toplane. last couple games I saw of dyrus he looked like one of the best NA top lanes I don't know how you can say this when we just saw Gamsu shit stomp the living shit out of scrubs this past weekend. dyrus can't even win lane against scrubs, your point? also one of those scrubs was quas. Helios camped Gamsu's lane like crazy while Santorin rarely even went up to top lane for a gank. While DIG is more top heavy with mid and bot playing support roles, TSM only helps top for counterganks, which is more than before but that doesn't equal to top priority like DIG. This also means that while Gamsu gets to snowball his leads on carries such as J4 and Hec, Dyrus only has access to Gnar, which you can tell by his item choices that he builds for team fights and not rushing Black Cleaver to 1v1 like Zion does. Therefore, you can only judge a top laner by their respective roles. Sure, Dyrus does not aggressively go for 1v1s, but he makes up for it in team play. Yes, Gamsu gets the support for him to snowball, but then (on his J4 game) he had such a huge lead on J4, which is usually GG except he repeatedly dove the backline without his teammates and basically suicided in team fights, making the game a 53minute slug fest. So how can you say one top laner is definitively better than the other when they have different roles? Or do you only judge by kills? Also, Quas and Impact have been drop the ball hard this week especially in the early game. Beating them doesn't reward Gamsu with a medal since TSM also beat TL and TiP. Context is everything. And in my first comment I did not say Dyrus was the best when it came to laning and 1v1.
Not to mention that one of those scrubs, Quas, Dyrus played this week too. And while Quas was picking up kills, Dyrus more than held his own in lane. If I recall Dyrus was like 2/1/11 or something really good.
On June 23 2015 07:07 RagequitBM wrote: Wow, if Keith gets this, he's going to be making a lot of cash for an 18 year old with that TSM stream viewer buff. I'm jelly
He doesn't even need to stay on TSM to be honest. If he plays ONE game for TSM, his stream buff is gonna be naisu.
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On June 23 2015 06:24 Redox wrote: Bjergsen leaving TSM lol. He will nowhere earn even half the amount as on TSM with streaming included. And you have no guarantees that your next team will actually perform better. Also I dont get why people always talk as if TSM is going down. They are still second in NA even with the problems they have. They are still second in NA, yes. But Regi's been very clear that their goal is to perform well at Worlds, not just in NA- and in their current form, they won't. TSM holds itself to a higher standard, so it's to be expected that fans will also have higher expectations of them.
On June 23 2015 09:34 JonGalt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 07:07 RagequitBM wrote: Wow, if Keith gets this, he's going to be making a lot of cash for an 18 year old with that TSM stream viewer buff. I'm jelly He doesn't even need to stay on TSM to be honest. If he plays ONE game for TSM, his stream buff is gonna be naisu. Considering Keith is still a part of Team Liquid, he's unlikely to play a single game for TSM. It's either no games on TSM because Wildturtle stays on, or turtle gets benched, TSM acquires Keith from TL, and he becomes the starter ADC and plays a bunch of games.
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Santorin is another weak spot on the team and he's far too predictable. I think Regi is making a good move; however, I still don't see TSM doing anything noteworthy at World's. Teams cannot get used to the stats quo or else you'll never push players to keep improving or at least diversifying in order to stay in the hunt. As far as I'm concerned Bjergsen and LustBoy are the two players keeping TSM relevant. Mostly Bjergsen. It's amazing how well that worked out for them bringing him in because their focus so much on him making plays.
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On June 23 2015 07:57 HyperST wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 07:44 wei2coolman wrote:On June 23 2015 07:38 HyperST wrote:On June 23 2015 07:33 wei2coolman wrote:On June 23 2015 07:22 travis wrote:On June 23 2015 07:18 TitusVI wrote: And they can still upgrade toplane. last couple games I saw of dyrus he looked like one of the best NA top lanes I don't know how you can say this when we just saw Gamsu shit stomp the living shit out of scrubs this past weekend. dyrus can't even win lane against scrubs, your point? also one of those scrubs was quas. Helios camped Gamsu's lane like crazy while Santorin rarely even went up to top lane for a gank. While DIG is more top heavy with mid and bot playing support roles, TSM only helps top for counterganks, which is more than before but that doesn't equal to top priority like DIG. This also means that while Gamsu gets to snowball his leads on carries such as J4 and Hec, Dyrus only has access to Gnar, which you can tell by his item choices that he builds for team fights and not rushing Black Cleaver to 1v1 like Zion does. Therefore, you can only judge a top laner by their respective roles. Sure, Dyrus does not aggressively go for 1v1s, but he makes up for it in team play. Yes, Gamsu gets the support for him to snowball, but then (on his J4 game) he had such a huge lead on J4, which is usually GG except he repeatedly dove the backline without his teammates and basically suicided in team fights, making the game a 53minute slug fest. So how can you say one top laner is definitively better than the other when they have different roles? Or do you only judge by kills? Also, Quas and Impact have been drop the ball hard this week especially in the early game. Beating them doesn't reward Gamsu with a medal since TSM also beat TL and TiP. Context is everything. And in my first comment I did not say Dyrus was the best when it came to laning and 1v1.
As if TSM Camperin (Santorin) didn´t camp mid all the time.
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On June 23 2015 10:25 Call_me_b_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 07:57 HyperST wrote:On June 23 2015 07:44 wei2coolman wrote:On June 23 2015 07:38 HyperST wrote:On June 23 2015 07:33 wei2coolman wrote:On June 23 2015 07:22 travis wrote:On June 23 2015 07:18 TitusVI wrote: And they can still upgrade toplane. last couple games I saw of dyrus he looked like one of the best NA top lanes I don't know how you can say this when we just saw Gamsu shit stomp the living shit out of scrubs this past weekend. dyrus can't even win lane against scrubs, your point? also one of those scrubs was quas. Helios camped Gamsu's lane like crazy while Santorin rarely even went up to top lane for a gank. While DIG is more top heavy with mid and bot playing support roles, TSM only helps top for counterganks, which is more than before but that doesn't equal to top priority like DIG. This also means that while Gamsu gets to snowball his leads on carries such as J4 and Hec, Dyrus only has access to Gnar, which you can tell by his item choices that he builds for team fights and not rushing Black Cleaver to 1v1 like Zion does. Therefore, you can only judge a top laner by their respective roles. Sure, Dyrus does not aggressively go for 1v1s, but he makes up for it in team play. Yes, Gamsu gets the support for him to snowball, but then (on his J4 game) he had such a huge lead on J4, which is usually GG except he repeatedly dove the backline without his teammates and basically suicided in team fights, making the game a 53minute slug fest. So how can you say one top laner is definitively better than the other when they have different roles? Or do you only judge by kills? Also, Quas and Impact have been drop the ball hard this week especially in the early game. Beating them doesn't reward Gamsu with a medal since TSM also beat TL and TiP. Context is everything. And in my first comment I did not say Dyrus was the best when it came to laning and 1v1. As if TSM Camperin (Santorin) didn´t camp mid all the time.
yes but we are just talking about the two top laners and how they fit in their team. not the mid lane
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keiths retiring even posted on twitter
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On June 23 2015 11:50 eagle wrote: keiths retiring even posted on twitter
wait... what?!
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On June 23 2015 07:40 Mensol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 07:37 Numy wrote:On June 23 2015 07:33 wei2coolman wrote:On June 23 2015 07:22 travis wrote:On June 23 2015 07:18 TitusVI wrote: And they can still upgrade toplane. last couple games I saw of dyrus he looked like one of the best NA top lanes I don't know how you can say this when we just saw Gamsu shit stomp the living shit out of scrubs this past weekend. Just because Gamsu looks amazing doesn't mean Dyrus doesn't look like one of the best top laners. Impact didn't look great, Quas looked bad, Hauntzer was pretty good, Flarez is too inconsistent, Cali is throwlord, Zion is doing well but his TPs or lack of feel a bit odd and Balls is bad. So yea Dyrus is looking like top 2/3 top laner in NA atm. Well you just explained it yourself. Everyone is so bad in NA that Dyrus looking good. He still has no chance against Marin/Koro/Duke/Huni/Acorn and list go on... Nobody said Dyrus has elevated his game to international level, just that there's a marked improvement. He's still got a ways to go, but he's playing a lot better than he was last split.
On June 23 2015 07:48 YellowOps wrote: I'm surprised at the amount of hate Regi is getting though. Obviously as a TSM fan myself, it would sadden me to see WT leave but I think Regi's decision to tryout Keith was a win-win situation, as it'd either motivate WT to improve or bring in a fresh young player. People will always give Regi shit whenever he makes a big decision until time tells all and it will, almost inevitably, be proven to be the right decision. The one semi-logical point to disliking this is the fact that this is possibly the first performance based roster change.
On June 23 2015 10:13 StarStruck wrote: Santorin is another weak spot on the team and he's far too predictable. I think Regi is making a good move; however, I still don't see TSM doing anything noteworthy at World's. Teams cannot get used to the stats quo or else you'll never push players to keep improving or at least diversifying in order to stay in the hunt. As far as I'm concerned Bjergsen and LustBoy are the two players keeping TSM relevant. Mostly Bjergsen. It's amazing how well that worked out for them bringing him in because their focus so much on him making plays. Lustboy has been pretty bad this split, though I don't know how much of that is his duo connection to Turtle. The team is being held up by it's solo lanes right now.
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i wonder if turtle will step up or not, seems like he's actually gotten worse as time goes on instead of improving.
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I don't like TSM's management.
I'm genuinely surprised that Turtle being considered to be replaced so quickly when Dyrus was pretty much near the bottom to average of the pack for most of the last few years. I don't know how Turtle can make rapid adjustments in a week either. I feel like he's more in a slump than being inherently bad.
100 excuses for Dyrus but merciless for Turtle. Not a Dyrus hater, just trying to make a point.
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On June 23 2015 15:41 K3Nyy wrote: I don't like TSM's management.
I'm genuinely surprised that Turtle being considered to be replaced so quickly when Dyrus was pretty much near the bottom to average of the pack for most of the last few years. I don't know how Turtle can make rapid adjustments in a week either. I feel like he's more in a slump than being inherently bad.
100 excuses for Dyrus but merciless for Turtle. Not a Dyrus hater, just trying to make a point. apparently after MSI they told dyrus the same thing and he's played a shit ton of solo queue and has improved a lot.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On June 23 2015 15:41 K3Nyy wrote: I don't like TSM's management.
I'm genuinely surprised that Turtle being considered to be replaced so quickly when Dyrus was pretty much near the bottom to average of the pack for most of the last few years. I don't know how Turtle can make rapid adjustments in a week either. I feel like he's more in a slump than being inherently bad.
100 excuses for Dyrus but merciless for Turtle. Not a Dyrus hater, just trying to make a point.
Because toplane has the most shallow pool of people who play it properly, especially, in NA. With all hate Dyrus gets, second best toplaner in NA historically is Darshan, who never won anything at all and still can't use tp properly in half of times.
While adcs at least appear here and there, even if noone is really as prodigious as s2 Liftlift, s3 WT or s4 Sneaky.
But it's hard to argue that at least 80% of TSM success is their management, Reginald knows how to make things work.
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On June 23 2015 07:40 Mensol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 07:37 Numy wrote:On June 23 2015 07:33 wei2coolman wrote:On June 23 2015 07:22 travis wrote:On June 23 2015 07:18 TitusVI wrote: And they can still upgrade toplane. last couple games I saw of dyrus he looked like one of the best NA top lanes I don't know how you can say this when we just saw Gamsu shit stomp the living shit out of scrubs this past weekend. Just because Gamsu looks amazing doesn't mean Dyrus doesn't look like one of the best top laners. Impact didn't look great, Quas looked bad, Hauntzer was pretty good, Flarez is too inconsistent, Cali is throwlord, Zion is doing well but his TPs or lack of feel a bit odd and Balls is bad. So yea Dyrus is looking like top 2/3 top laner in NA atm. Well you just explained it yourself. Everyone is so bad in NA that Dyrus looking good. He still has no chance against Marin/Koro/Duke/Huni/Acorn and list go on...
The discussion isn't about how he has a change against them though so I don't see why it is relevant at all.
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On June 23 2015 15:41 K3Nyy wrote: I don't like TSM's management.
I'm genuinely surprised that Turtle being considered to be replaced so quickly when Dyrus was pretty much near the bottom to average of the pack for most of the last few years. I don't know how Turtle can make rapid adjustments in a week either. I feel like he's more in a slump than being inherently bad.
100 excuses for Dyrus but merciless for Turtle. Not a Dyrus hater, just trying to make a point.
He doesn't get only a week, he's had over six so far. And probably more since I doubt Regi's conversation with him after MSI regarding getting his ass in gear was the first time.
Dyrus is getting a pass here because he earned it. He was in the same exact situation as Turtle after MSI, but he took it to heart and worked his ass off to get better. Turtle hasn't done any such thing as far as I can tell. so Regi has been forced to move onto this next stage of bringing in a competitor for the starting position. Turtle is getting every chance and then some here IMO, yet he hasn't taken any of them so far.
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Let's be honest. At least in part, Dyrus' shit show last split was related to TSM's prioritization as a team (90% mid centric) and the fact that most of the time Santorin plays like Santorum. In a top centric tanky meta, they hung Dyrus out on a limb and Santorin is mostly useless. So it became Bjerg hard carry or no in many cases. Part of Dyrus doing better is that the meta is shifting away from the tank meta (with Cinderhulk and champion nerfs), part of it is he is playing better in lane, part of it is him adjusting to the recurrence of the 4v0 early push strategy. So he's not TPing into easy dives. In addition, Dyrus champ control appears to be much better this split overall.
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On June 24 2015 03:30 geript wrote: Let's be honest. At least in part, Dyrus' shit show last split was related to TSM's prioritization as a team (90% mid centric) and the fact that most of the time Santorin plays like Santorum. In a top centric tanky meta, they hung Dyrus out on a limb and Santorin is mostly useless. So it became Bjerg hard carry or no in many cases. Part of Dyrus doing better is that the meta is shifting away from the tank meta (with Cinderhulk and champion nerfs), part of it is he is playing better in lane, part of it is him adjusting to the recurrence of the 4v0 early push strategy. So he's not TPing into easy dives. In addition, Dyrus champ control appears to be much better this split overall. Well, a big issue with Dyrus' individual play last split was he didn't seem to know matchups outside of the two tanks and Lulu that the team kept him on for the most part. He couldn't play carry tops because his knowledge of the matchups were off and he wouldn't know how to play if he got ahead. I don't know if he just got lazy because TSM was going well or complacent because he was playing Sion/Maokai/Lulu game after game, but he's clearly turned that around with the tear he's gone on in soloqueue.
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>TSM Trying out Keith >Discussion turns into a debate about dyrus performance..
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To be fair, it is in relation to Dyrus performance in comparison to Santorin's and WildTurtle's. Dyrus has improved from the last split. In comparison, Turtle isn't. While I'm personally curious as to how Kieth would do in relation to WT. I'm not sure that in the short time frame he would gel with the team well enough to do better (and vice versa). Kieth is also a bit of a wild card in relation to playing on the big stage. Personally, this type of move from a lineup standpoint is much better to do post worlds/pre-spring split. So I expect that this is more of a "let's give wT a shot in the ass" move rather than an honest consideration.
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There's no debate about WT's performance because there's nothing to debate. He's been crap.
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sad thing is a lot of them have been playing way below expectations yet they still sit in 2nd place in NA hue. Just goes to show you how bad the situation is this split.
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On June 24 2015 06:39 StarStruck wrote: sad thing is a lot of them have been playing way below expectations yet they still sit in 2nd place in NA hue. Just goes to show you how bad the situation is this split. Not really. NA has long been TSM and C9 ruling the roost and now that the lynchpin of C9 is gone that team has collapsed. We just need to find out if TL is willing to step up and be legit or if CLG can stop shooting itself in the foot.
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On June 23 2015 07:33 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 07:22 travis wrote:On June 23 2015 07:18 TitusVI wrote: And they can still upgrade toplane. last couple games I saw of dyrus he looked like one of the best NA top lanes I don't know how you can say this when we just saw Gamsu shit stomp the living shit out of scrubs this past weekend. It's almost like the words "one of the best top laners" were used...
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The point is none of them are even close to being good enough in their positions. It doesn't matter who's show it is in NA atm. Both those teams are lackluster and their scores have very little meaning with how poor a lot of the games have been.
It's just not a good situation and Regi realizes that. There needs to be drastic improvement and a team like TSM has to try new things to create better synergy between the team if they have any hope of taking games off the Chinese and Korean teams.
C9 isn't even relevant atm and I don't think they're going to be relevant for a while. As for TL.. they're having a hard time even beating the teams higher up than them when those teams are playing sub par. Sure those games were close, but you still went 0-2 last week. Like come on. It's pretty bad the good thing is a lot of the players realize this and take it in jest. Now they got to act upon it.
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On June 24 2015 12:45 StarStruck wrote: The point is none of them are even close to being good enough in their positions. It doesn't matter who's show it is in NA atm. Both those teams are lackluster and their scores have very little meaning with how poor a lot of the games have been.
It's just not a good situation and Regi realizes that. There needs to be drastic improvement and a team like TSM has to try new things to create better synergy between the team if they have any hope of taking games off the Chinese and Korean teams.
C9 isn't even relevant atm and I don't think they're going to be relevant for a while. As for TL.. they're having a hard time even beating the teams higher up than them when those teams are playing sub par. Sure those games were close, but you still went 0-2 last week. Like come on. It's pretty bad the good thing is a lot of the players realize this and take it in jest. Now they got to act upon it. Keep in mind that TSM with Amazing was good enough to take a game off of SSW and nobody is SSW right now. Nobody would consider Amazing to be, ugh, amazing. Dyrus wasn't playing as well as he is now. Bjergsen is Bjergsen. Honestly, the biggest thing holding TSM back right now is their bot lanes and it's really messing with their mid/late game because Turtle is doing so little. If they can get his head right, which seems to be the issue, or if Keith can be a solid addition to the roster they can work towards being an international level team again. Until that happens, I don't think TSM has the ability to move forward with anything.
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On June 24 2015 13:45 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 12:45 StarStruck wrote: The point is none of them are even close to being good enough in their positions. It doesn't matter who's show it is in NA atm. Both those teams are lackluster and their scores have very little meaning with how poor a lot of the games have been.
It's just not a good situation and Regi realizes that. There needs to be drastic improvement and a team like TSM has to try new things to create better synergy between the team if they have any hope of taking games off the Chinese and Korean teams.
C9 isn't even relevant atm and I don't think they're going to be relevant for a while. As for TL.. they're having a hard time even beating the teams higher up than them when those teams are playing sub par. Sure those games were close, but you still went 0-2 last week. Like come on. It's pretty bad the good thing is a lot of the players realize this and take it in jest. Now they got to act upon it. Keep in mind that TSM with Amazing was good enough to take a game off of SSW and nobody is SSW right now.
I don't recommend using that game as an example for anything, ever.
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On June 24 2015 14:02 HyperST wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 13:45 Gahlo wrote:On June 24 2015 12:45 StarStruck wrote: The point is none of them are even close to being good enough in their positions. It doesn't matter who's show it is in NA atm. Both those teams are lackluster and their scores have very little meaning with how poor a lot of the games have been.
It's just not a good situation and Regi realizes that. There needs to be drastic improvement and a team like TSM has to try new things to create better synergy between the team if they have any hope of taking games off the Chinese and Korean teams.
C9 isn't even relevant atm and I don't think they're going to be relevant for a while. As for TL.. they're having a hard time even beating the teams higher up than them when those teams are playing sub par. Sure those games were close, but you still went 0-2 last week. Like come on. It's pretty bad the good thing is a lot of the players realize this and take it in jest. Now they got to act upon it. Keep in mind that TSM with Amazing was good enough to take a game off of SSW and nobody is SSW right now. I don't recommend using that game as an example for anything, ever. China and Korea, while the clear favorites, are overrated.
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I expect Turtle to drop a quadra kill next week
I think he's just tilting. It's one thing for your mechanics and champ mastery to decline or fall behind, but it's impossible to just simply forget positioning. The argument could be made that the change in the meta has some impact, but it's not enough to explain everything.
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On June 24 2015 14:08 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 14:02 HyperST wrote:On June 24 2015 13:45 Gahlo wrote:On June 24 2015 12:45 StarStruck wrote: The point is none of them are even close to being good enough in their positions. It doesn't matter who's show it is in NA atm. Both those teams are lackluster and their scores have very little meaning with how poor a lot of the games have been.
It's just not a good situation and Regi realizes that. There needs to be drastic improvement and a team like TSM has to try new things to create better synergy between the team if they have any hope of taking games off the Chinese and Korean teams.
C9 isn't even relevant atm and I don't think they're going to be relevant for a while. As for TL.. they're having a hard time even beating the teams higher up than them when those teams are playing sub par. Sure those games were close, but you still went 0-2 last week. Like come on. It's pretty bad the good thing is a lot of the players realize this and take it in jest. Now they got to act upon it. Keep in mind that TSM with Amazing was good enough to take a game off of SSW and nobody is SSW right now. I don't recommend using that game as an example for anything, ever. China and Korea, while the clear favorites, are overrated.
Hey man, anyone can take a single game off someone with a little bit of luck but to say they're overrated. Nah especially when it comes to a best of.
Let the best team win.
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Yeah I don't think that the KR or CN scenes are overrated at all, they're clearly ahead of the rest of the world by a wide margin. I think Regi is making a good decision putting Keith out there to motivate WT, but I still think that unless WT reclaims his S3 form there's no chance of this iteration doing anything at worlds. They need to hit a groove in the worlds meta (whatever it may be by then) and play absolutely out of their minds to achieve anything noteworthy. Just too small of a chance, but if Regi doesn't say he's aiming for worlds then he's betraying his own personal ambition. To put it frankly, he could just keep shooting for #1 NA and hopefully he gets to beat up on EU teams when he gets to face them and TSM would still be wildly successful.
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I can put up with people overrating Eastern scenes, what I am always really doubtful of is when people suggest the players are simply more talented.
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On June 25 2015 06:35 LimpingGoat wrote: I can put up with people overrating Eastern scenes, what I am always really doubtful of is when people suggest the players are simply more talented. I'm pretty sure the results pretty much prove that.
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On June 25 2015 06:36 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 06:35 LimpingGoat wrote: I can put up with people overrating Eastern scenes, what I am always really doubtful of is when people suggest the players are simply more talented. I'm pretty sure the results pretty much prove that. And yet Hai can hit Challenger during a bootcamp.
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On June 25 2015 06:37 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 06:36 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 06:35 LimpingGoat wrote: I can put up with people overrating Eastern scenes, what I am always really doubtful of is when people suggest the players are simply more talented. I'm pretty sure the results pretty much prove that. And yet Hai can hit Challenger during a bootcamp. Too bad he can't hit skillshots.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On June 25 2015 06:37 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 06:36 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 06:35 LimpingGoat wrote: I can put up with people overrating Eastern scenes, what I am always really doubtful of is when people suggest the players are simply more talented. I'm pretty sure the results pretty much prove that. And yet Hai can hit Challenger during a bootcamp.
Pobelter got Challenger in Korea, proceeded to have worst split in his LCS career. Dun dun dun.
I'm pretty sure that part of community who understands things (or tries to do it) have already agreed that infrastructure > players at this point, therefore Korea can be still relevant even after losing like 50 players to other regions and so on. But saying that Faker, Mata, Meiko, Koro1 and at least like 20-30 players ain't more talented than their LCS counterparts? Oh, please.
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On June 25 2015 06:41 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 06:37 Gahlo wrote:On June 25 2015 06:36 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 06:35 LimpingGoat wrote: I can put up with people overrating Eastern scenes, what I am always really doubtful of is when people suggest the players are simply more talented. I'm pretty sure the results pretty much prove that. And yet Hai can hit Challenger during a bootcamp. Too bad he can't hit skillshots.
(Skill)Shots fired pewpewpew
+ Show Spoiler +
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On June 25 2015 06:47 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 06:37 Gahlo wrote:On June 25 2015 06:36 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 06:35 LimpingGoat wrote: I can put up with people overrating Eastern scenes, what I am always really doubtful of is when people suggest the players are simply more talented. I'm pretty sure the results pretty much prove that. And yet Hai can hit Challenger during a bootcamp. Pobelter got Challenger in Korea, proceeded to have worst split in his LCS career. Dun dun dun. I'm pretty sure that part of community who understands things (or tries to do it) have already agreed that infrastructure > players at this point, therefore Korea can be still relevant even after losing like 50 players to other regions and so on. But saying that Faker, Mata, Meiko, Koro1 and at least like 20-30 players ain't more talented than their LCS counterparts? Oh, please. Yeah, I'm not saying Western players are some how innately unable to play at that level, the problem is that there's no good way of developing that talent in the West, and considering how fucking stacked talent is on the top team of the East compared to the West, it's just easier to say "Eastern players are more talented".
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They have more players, so they have more talent. They are also better at making that talent play well enough so we can see it.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On June 25 2015 07:12 Ansibled wrote: They have more players, so they have more talent. They are also better at making that talent play well enough so we can see it.
This is bullshit, holy shit.
There is a common rhetorical question in Russia when our national team is losing. "Hey, we have almost 150 millions people here but somehow we still have same 3 defenders as dozen years ago, how can it happen, can't we grow at least, 5-10 more?"
If Western regions lack infrastructure, they're not willing to train harder and harder and streaming culture is way more cool, it's not problem of less amount of players. I don't think people legit can argue that Froggen, Bjergsen, Doublelift or WildTurtle ain't talented enough to be world contenders. It's not problem of talent, it's other things.
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On June 25 2015 07:17 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 07:12 Ansibled wrote: They have more players, so they have more talent. They are also better at making that talent play well enough so we can see it. This is bullshit, holy shit. There is a common rhetorical question in Russia when our national team is losing. "Hey, we have almost 150 millions people here but somehow we still have same 3 defenders as dozen years ago, how can it happen, can't we grow at least, 5-10 more?" If Western regions lack infrastructure, they're not willing to train harder and harder and streaming culture is way more cool, it's not problem of less amount of players. I don't think people legit can argue that Froggen, Bjergsen, Doublelift or WildTurtle ain't talented enough to be world contenders. It's not problem of talent, it's other things. And Korea alone has more ranked players than EUW or NA. If Joe Random has a .05% chance of being pro quality(complete out of the ass statistic, the actual value doesn't matter.) having more players will provide more talent. That's why Korea is able to stay in a decent shape when most of their tier 1 players leave.
EU has talent, but can't cultivate it well because the orgs there are barely even trying with coaching staff. NA doesn't have talent for a variety of reasons, but the orgs here are more likely to be at least trying to figure out coaching. Meanwhile Korea has about a decade head start when it comes to scouting talent and is past a lot of the trial and error of how to coach effectively. The West doesn't lack support staff because it isn't trying, it's because they're trying to build a boat while they sail it.
Streaming is the result of the lack of non-endemic sponsors. Why do you think challenger 1 trick ponies stream? Because it's more fun, and usually, they can make more money doing that as opposed to going pro.
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i thought this was pretty hilarious.
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Worth to mention that TSM announcement video got 4.955 likes and 8.712 dislikes. Some people really hate Keith right now, especially WT fanboys l o l.
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There's always a giant backlash against Regi/TSM when somebody is getting booted.
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On June 25 2015 07:01 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 06:47 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On June 25 2015 06:37 Gahlo wrote:On June 25 2015 06:36 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 06:35 LimpingGoat wrote: I can put up with people overrating Eastern scenes, what I am always really doubtful of is when people suggest the players are simply more talented. I'm pretty sure the results pretty much prove that. And yet Hai can hit Challenger during a bootcamp. Pobelter got Challenger in Korea, proceeded to have worst split in his LCS career. Dun dun dun. I'm pretty sure that part of community who understands things (or tries to do it) have already agreed that infrastructure > players at this point, therefore Korea can be still relevant even after losing like 50 players to other regions and so on. But saying that Faker, Mata, Meiko, Koro1 and at least like 20-30 players ain't more talented than their LCS counterparts? Oh, please. Yeah, I'm not saying Western players are some how innately unable to play at that level, the problem is that there's no good way of developing that talent in the West, and considering how fucking stacked talent is on the top team of the East compared to the West, it's just easier to say "Eastern players are more talented".
East develops its talent the same way the West does, kids just playing Soloq. This game is not so insanely complex that like, our players are just getting outplayed individually. People stupidly just see one team doing better than another and then think that must mean the players on the winning team are individually better, which at the highest level at least is actually very rarely the case.
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On June 25 2015 09:15 LimpingGoat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 07:01 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 06:47 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On June 25 2015 06:37 Gahlo wrote:On June 25 2015 06:36 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 06:35 LimpingGoat wrote: I can put up with people overrating Eastern scenes, what I am always really doubtful of is when people suggest the players are simply more talented. I'm pretty sure the results pretty much prove that. And yet Hai can hit Challenger during a bootcamp. Pobelter got Challenger in Korea, proceeded to have worst split in his LCS career. Dun dun dun. I'm pretty sure that part of community who understands things (or tries to do it) have already agreed that infrastructure > players at this point, therefore Korea can be still relevant even after losing like 50 players to other regions and so on. But saying that Faker, Mata, Meiko, Koro1 and at least like 20-30 players ain't more talented than their LCS counterparts? Oh, please. Yeah, I'm not saying Western players are some how innately unable to play at that level, the problem is that there's no good way of developing that talent in the West, and considering how fucking stacked talent is on the top team of the East compared to the West, it's just easier to say "Eastern players are more talented". East develops its talent the same way the West does, kids just playing Soloq. This game is not so insanely complex that like, our players are just getting outplayed individually. People stupidly just see one team doing better than another and then think that must mean the players on the winning team are individually better, which at the highest level at least is actually very rarely the case. The difference is soloqueue stars in the East get picked up by teams and developed.
When was the last time being #1 in NA meant you got a shot into a team? The closest thing we've seen was Rhux winning a 1v1 tourney.
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On June 25 2015 09:36 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 09:15 LimpingGoat wrote:On June 25 2015 07:01 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 06:47 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On June 25 2015 06:37 Gahlo wrote:On June 25 2015 06:36 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 06:35 LimpingGoat wrote: I can put up with people overrating Eastern scenes, what I am always really doubtful of is when people suggest the players are simply more talented. I'm pretty sure the results pretty much prove that. And yet Hai can hit Challenger during a bootcamp. Pobelter got Challenger in Korea, proceeded to have worst split in his LCS career. Dun dun dun. I'm pretty sure that part of community who understands things (or tries to do it) have already agreed that infrastructure > players at this point, therefore Korea can be still relevant even after losing like 50 players to other regions and so on. But saying that Faker, Mata, Meiko, Koro1 and at least like 20-30 players ain't more talented than their LCS counterparts? Oh, please. Yeah, I'm not saying Western players are some how innately unable to play at that level, the problem is that there's no good way of developing that talent in the West, and considering how fucking stacked talent is on the top team of the East compared to the West, it's just easier to say "Eastern players are more talented". East develops its talent the same way the West does, kids just playing Soloq. This game is not so insanely complex that like, our players are just getting outplayed individually. People stupidly just see one team doing better than another and then think that must mean the players on the winning team are individually better, which at the highest level at least is actually very rarely the case. The difference is soloqueue stars in the East get picked up by teams and developed. When was the last time being #1 in NA meant you got a shot into a team? The closest thing we've seen was Rhux winning a 1v1 tourney.
Go through NA's top ten, almost all of them are in the LCS. If a talent actually comes up people will notice it immediately, especially in NA of all regions.
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Chunky was top 10 for like 4 months last year and the best offer he got was backup/laneswap from a challenger team
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On June 25 2015 10:07 Slusher wrote: Chunky was top 10 for like 4 months last year and the best offer he got was backup/laneswap from a challenger team ^ pretty much about as lulzy as it gets.
Also in last summoning insight Clement Chu was talking about how a couple taiwanese players got contacted by Korean organizations because they were so highly ranked on Korean ladder. But didn't' follow through, didn't know they were taiwanese.
We're talking about organizations constantly combing through Challenger Solo Queue ladder rankings to find a new player.
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On June 25 2015 10:22 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 10:07 Slusher wrote: Chunky was top 10 for like 4 months last year and the best offer he got was backup/laneswap from a challenger team ^ pretty much about as lulzy as it gets. Also in last summoning insight Clement Chu was talking about how a couple taiwanese players got contacted by Korean organizations because they were so highly ranked on Korean ladder. But didn't' follow through, didn't know they were taiwanese. We're talking about organizations constantly combing through Challenger Solo Queue ladder rankings to find a new player. And orgs that have enough cash to throw at soloq players literally just to be practice players.
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On June 25 2015 10:26 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 10:22 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 10:07 Slusher wrote: Chunky was top 10 for like 4 months last year and the best offer he got was backup/laneswap from a challenger team ^ pretty much about as lulzy as it gets. Also in last summoning insight Clement Chu was talking about how a couple taiwanese players got contacted by Korean organizations because they were so highly ranked on Korean ladder. But didn't' follow through, didn't know they were taiwanese. We're talking about organizations constantly combing through Challenger Solo Queue ladder rankings to find a new player. And orgs that have enough cash to throw at soloq players literally just to be practice players. Not to mention orgs that have multiple world-class players in a single position. EDG Koro, and AmazinJ EDG U and Pawn (last split) SKT Faker and Ez hoon. Flame and Acorn. like holy shit, can't even compare top western team "talent" to top eastern team talent.
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On June 25 2015 10:29 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 10:26 Gahlo wrote:On June 25 2015 10:22 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 10:07 Slusher wrote: Chunky was top 10 for like 4 months last year and the best offer he got was backup/laneswap from a challenger team ^ pretty much about as lulzy as it gets. Also in last summoning insight Clement Chu was talking about how a couple taiwanese players got contacted by Korean organizations because they were so highly ranked on Korean ladder. But didn't' follow through, didn't know they were taiwanese. We're talking about organizations constantly combing through Challenger Solo Queue ladder rankings to find a new player. And orgs that have enough cash to throw at soloq players literally just to be practice players. Not to mention orgs that have multiple world-class players in a single position. EDG Koro, and AmazinJ EDG U and Pawn (last split) SKT Faker and Ez hoon. Flame and Acorn. like holy shit, can't even compare top western team "talent" to top eastern team talent. You could make the same statement if 80% of the top level EU players went to NA, because in 3/4 of the example you just gave, that's what happened. I'm willing to bet IG has more money invested into Kakao than some LCS orgs have in their entire team.
Also, let's not pretend for one minute that the LGD top situation isn't the result of cockblocking on obvious sister teams.
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On June 25 2015 10:33 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 10:29 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 10:26 Gahlo wrote:On June 25 2015 10:22 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 10:07 Slusher wrote: Chunky was top 10 for like 4 months last year and the best offer he got was backup/laneswap from a challenger team ^ pretty much about as lulzy as it gets. Also in last summoning insight Clement Chu was talking about how a couple taiwanese players got contacted by Korean organizations because they were so highly ranked on Korean ladder. But didn't' follow through, didn't know they were taiwanese. We're talking about organizations constantly combing through Challenger Solo Queue ladder rankings to find a new player. And orgs that have enough cash to throw at soloq players literally just to be practice players. Not to mention orgs that have multiple world-class players in a single position. EDG Koro, and AmazinJ EDG U and Pawn (last split) SKT Faker and Ez hoon. Flame and Acorn. like holy shit, can't even compare top western team "talent" to top eastern team talent. You could make the same statement if 80% of the top level EU players went to NA, because in 3/4 of the example you just gave, that's what happened. I'm willing to bet IG has more money invested into Kakao than some LCS orgs have in their entire team. Also, let's not pretend for one minute that the LGD top situation isn't the result of cockblocking on obvious sister teams. As opposed to sister team organizations in the previous split? God-tier players everywhere in Korea. Also more money invested = more infrastructure = more talent development.
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On June 25 2015 10:35 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 10:33 Gahlo wrote:On June 25 2015 10:29 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 10:26 Gahlo wrote:On June 25 2015 10:22 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 10:07 Slusher wrote: Chunky was top 10 for like 4 months last year and the best offer he got was backup/laneswap from a challenger team ^ pretty much about as lulzy as it gets. Also in last summoning insight Clement Chu was talking about how a couple taiwanese players got contacted by Korean organizations because they were so highly ranked on Korean ladder. But didn't' follow through, didn't know they were taiwanese. We're talking about organizations constantly combing through Challenger Solo Queue ladder rankings to find a new player. And orgs that have enough cash to throw at soloq players literally just to be practice players. Not to mention orgs that have multiple world-class players in a single position. EDG Koro, and AmazinJ EDG U and Pawn (last split) SKT Faker and Ez hoon. Flame and Acorn. like holy shit, can't even compare top western team "talent" to top eastern team talent. You could make the same statement if 80% of the top level EU players went to NA, because in 3/4 of the example you just gave, that's what happened. I'm willing to bet IG has more money invested into Kakao than some LCS orgs have in their entire team. Also, let's not pretend for one minute that the LGD top situation isn't the result of cockblocking on obvious sister teams. As opposed to sister team organizations in the previous split? God-tier players everywhere in Korea. Also more money invested = more infrastructure = more talent development. I never once denied this.
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On June 25 2015 07:01 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 06:47 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On June 25 2015 06:37 Gahlo wrote:On June 25 2015 06:36 wei2coolman wrote:On June 25 2015 06:35 LimpingGoat wrote: I can put up with people overrating Eastern scenes, what I am always really doubtful of is when people suggest the players are simply more talented. I'm pretty sure the results pretty much prove that. And yet Hai can hit Challenger during a bootcamp. Pobelter got Challenger in Korea, proceeded to have worst split in his LCS career. Dun dun dun. I'm pretty sure that part of community who understands things (or tries to do it) have already agreed that infrastructure > players at this point, therefore Korea can be still relevant even after losing like 50 players to other regions and so on. But saying that Faker, Mata, Meiko, Koro1 and at least like 20-30 players ain't more talented than their LCS counterparts? Oh, please. Yeah, I'm not saying Western players are some how innately unable to play at that level, the problem is that there's no good way of developing that talent in the West, and considering how fucking stacked talent is on the top team of the East compared to the West, it's just easier to say "Eastern players are more talented".
You know what? I've watched quite a few player streams lately and if there is something I noticed when they stream soloq or duoq. They make all sorts of mistakes that they know and don't really act upon it because everyone just wants to go HAM. They Western players pick up all sort of bad habits where it's okay to them to make many mistakes in one game. It's okay though because I'm just streaming solo q. It's a poor mindset and it's hard to turn that around when they're used to it. It's no different than what their managers and coaches tell us.
"They know these things we tell them, but they don't really act upon it."
I like Regi's mindset in pushing the players to better themselves and try to put their best foot forward. It's a state of mind and in order for them to progress they need their players to start thinking more even when they're streaming or doing solo q.
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So mostly because I am not 100% familiar with the rules of lcs but how is this not considered poaching or something along the lines of that where a contracted player is being offered a chance to play for another organization. Can someone explain this too me?
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On June 25 2015 16:43 Andadog wrote: So mostly because I am not 100% familiar with the rules of lcs but how is this not considered poaching or something along the lines of that where a contracted player is being offered a chance to play for another organization. Can someone explain this too me? TSM asked TL, TL said okay.
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Basically if you go to the player directly without first talking to and getting approval from their organization, it's poaching.
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There's 3 parts involved in a player transfer from one team to another: The player, his current team, and his prospective team. If all 3 parts agree to the transfer, then it's perfectly fine. If the prospective team tries to make arrangements with the player behind the back of the players' current team, it's poaching.
In the case of Keith, TSM asked TL and Keith, and both agreed to let TSM try Keith out, so it's not poaching.
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On June 25 2015 23:32 Zato-1 wrote: There's 3 parts involved in a player transfer from one team to another: The player, his current team, and his prospective team. If all 3 parts agree to the transfer, then it's perfectly fine. If the prospective team tries to make arrangements with the player behind the back of the players' current team, it's poaching.
In the case of Keith, TSM asked TL and Keith, and both agreed to let TSM try Keith out, so it's not poaching. Depending on how the contracts are written the player might not have a choice, strictly speaking.
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On June 25 2015 06:35 LimpingGoat wrote: I can put up with people overrating Eastern scenes, what I am always really doubtful of is when people suggest the players are simply more talented.
Theres a larger player base in the east and they do a much better job sifting through it
I don't like the word talent, Id much rather just say the players are better and leave it at that.
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It does bug me a bit that 'talent' as a word is so casually thrown about by the general fanbase, since talent refers to innate aptitudes while people are usually actually referring to skill, which is the end result of talent refined through coaching/quantity of experience/quality of experience. Heck, I'll slam NA all the time in terms of being poor at searching for and refining raw talent. Or being less than favourable for guiding talents down the path of going pro at all. But I'll never say that a region is lacking in talent. It's a statement that comes off as, 'this area of world is intrinsically worse at producing people with the innate traits suitable for this game, as if it's a genetics thing or there's something in the water'.
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Personally, I think NA definitely has less raw talent than China or Korea both as it regards sheer numbers of professional level play and in regards to average skill cap. This is not to say that NA shouldn't have more just on the basis of sheer numbers. Rather that basic traits that tend to make a good player (hand-eye coordination, quick reflexes, fast decision making, etc.) are poached in essence by other sports. In the US at least, sports are still king (generally football > basketball > soccer/baseball etc.). Wheres, I suspect that the esports subculture in Korean provides far more percentage draw than it does in the states; so Korean, while having a lower number of talented prospects, "captures" a significantly higher percentage of those prospects into the esports system. Whereas because esports are far less normalized, the amount of "capturable" talent is likely very low; in addition, the potential talent is pulled between a variety of games in addition to otherwise self-selecting out (for other sports). This of course also doesn't cover the significantly better farm system that exists in Korea and China (in regards to getting talent not necessarily better for the talented players themselves) to the talent that is found is better refined.
Another important way to look at NA/EU vs China/Korea, is college sports. In college football, there may be 5 pro players on a team; sometimes more but usually less. People who possess the intelligence, athleticism, quickness, strength, etc. in order to play on a professional level. The better schools tend to have more players likely to go pro and are more likely to play against opposing teams with pro candidates. So generally, the talent from bigger/better schools tends to do better in NFL and they tend to have a leg up when entering the NFL. I imagine it's like that in Korea. Higher percentage of raw talent who get used to playing against skilled opponents and improve faster because of it and enter the pro scene at a higher level due to it. Whereas in NA, there's less talent; so players are less likely to play against highly skilled opponents. In turn, they progress in skill more slowly because they aren't challenged as strongly as often. This extends to the pro scene and I'm pretty sure Samsung or Anarchy would both be (in the least) top 3 NA LCS if not better.
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On June 26 2015 04:22 geript wrote: Personally, I think NA definitely has less raw talent than China or Korea both as it regards sheer numbers of professional level play and in regards to average skill cap. This is not to say that NA shouldn't have more just on the basis of sheer numbers. Rather that basic traits that tend to make a good player (hand-eye coordination, quick reflexes, fast decision making, etc.) are poached in essence by other sports. In the US at least, sports are still king (generally football > basketball > soccer/baseball etc.). Wheres, I suspect that the esports subculture in Korean provides far more percentage draw than it does in the states; so Korean, while having a lower number of talented prospects, "captures" a significantly higher percentage of those prospects into the esports system. Whereas because esports are far less normalized, the amount of "capturable" talent is likely very low; in addition, the potential talent is pulled between a variety of games in addition to otherwise self-selecting out (for other sports). This of course also doesn't cover the significantly better farm system that exists in Korea and China (in regards to getting talent not necessarily better for the talented players themselves) to the talent that is found is better refined.
Another important way to look at NA/EU vs China/Korea, is college sports. In college football, there may be 5 pro players on a team; sometimes more but usually less. People who possess the intelligence, athleticism, quickness, strength, etc. in order to play on a professional level. The better schools tend to have more players likely to go pro and are more likely to play against opposing teams with pro candidates. So generally, the talent from bigger/better schools tends to do better in NFL and they tend to have a leg up when entering the NFL. I imagine it's like that in Korea. Higher percentage of raw talent who get used to playing against skilled opponents and improve faster because of it and enter the pro scene at a higher level due to it. Whereas in NA, there's less talent; so players are less likely to play against highly skilled opponents. In turn, they progress in skill more slowly because they aren't challenged as strongly as often. This extends to the pro scene and I'm pretty sure Samsung or Anarchy would both be (in the least) top 3 NA LCS if not better.
So many things wrong with this post lol.
Koreans when they decide they want to be progamers drop high school and immediately start doing it full time, as early as the age of 12-14. That's not the norm nor the desire of parents, it's something that is somewhat accepted depending on each individual situation. You don't see Americans dropping high school and not getting a diploma to play League. Until that kind of basic gap is bridged there's no reason to compare the solo q ladders directly because the best Koreans started much earlier than the best Americans/Europeans.
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On June 23 2015 05:00 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 04:45 MooMooMugi wrote: Reminds me of Chaox all over again, probably has lack of practice due to a girl Can we just stop with it, lol. Nothing prevented Alex Ich from being dominant mid despite being married for almost 2 years at this point. There's a big difference between what American women demand of you and what foreign women demand.
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On June 26 2015 05:17 Sonnington wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 05:00 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On June 23 2015 04:45 MooMooMugi wrote: Reminds me of Chaox all over again, probably has lack of practice due to a girl Can we just stop with it, lol. Nothing prevented Alex Ich from being dominant mid despite being married for almost 2 years at this point. There's a big difference between what American women demand of you and what Russian women demand.
i never knew Chaox's excuse was girl troubles lol
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On June 26 2015 05:20 las91 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 05:17 Sonnington wrote:On June 23 2015 05:00 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On June 23 2015 04:45 MooMooMugi wrote: Reminds me of Chaox all over again, probably has lack of practice due to a girl Can we just stop with it, lol. Nothing prevented Alex Ich from being dominant mid despite being married for almost 2 years at this point. There's a big difference between what American women demand of you and what Russian women demand. i never knew Chaox's excuse was girl troubles lol
Almost every single Russian women I've been with has been pretty demanding of my time compared to American women who's generally been more lax about things actually.
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On June 26 2015 02:44 Saradin wrote: It does bug me a bit that 'talent' as a word is so casually thrown about by the general fanbase, since talent refers to innate aptitudes while people are usually actually referring to skill, which is the end result of talent refined through coaching/quantity of experience/quality of experience. Heck, I'll slam NA all the time in terms of being poor at searching for and refining raw talent. Or being less than favourable for guiding talents down the path of going pro at all. But I'll never say that a region is lacking in talent. It's a statement that comes off as, 'this area of world is intrinsically worse at producing people with the innate traits suitable for this game, as if it's a genetics thing or there's something in the water'.
Exactly, the word isnt helpful at explaining the difference in quality between regions
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Uh, they said from the beginning that Keith was just scrimming this week.
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All TSM has said is that Keith is trying out for a spot on the roster, they haven't even mentioned making him permanent starting ADC.
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On June 27 2015 13:41 Gahlo wrote:Uh, they said from the beginning that Keith was just scrimming this week. Loco told in TSM Legends that Keith would be permanent member if he performs.
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On June 28 2015 00:13 Mensol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2015 13:41 Gahlo wrote:Uh, they said from the beginning that Keith was just scrimming this week. Loco told in TSM Legends that Keith would be permanent member if he performs.
Permanent member doesn't necessarily mean starting player. Could be a permanent back-up until Turtle really falls off the deep-end.
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On June 28 2015 00:13 Mensol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2015 13:41 Gahlo wrote:Uh, they said from the beginning that Keith was just scrimming this week. Loco told in TSM Legends that Keith would be permanent member if he performs. TSM's announcement was made after recording of Legends. In the announcement they said Turtle would be starting this week. Ergo, Turtle starting shouldn't be a surprise.
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Sure they don't want to make keith permanent when they getting freeze next year.
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On June 28 2015 00:16 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2015 00:13 Mensol wrote:On June 27 2015 13:41 Gahlo wrote:Uh, they said from the beginning that Keith was just scrimming this week. Loco told in TSM Legends that Keith would be permanent member if he performs. Permanent member doesn't necessarily mean starting player. Could be a permanent back-up until Turtle really falls off the deep-end. exactly. It's not like you didn't read about it before Mensol. I thought they were pretty clear with regards to Keith scrimming with them this week and they'll see where it progresses. They're trying to put more pressure on Turtle to improve or otherwise get replaced. The message is pretty clear.
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Fwiw, Turtle played pretty decently this week
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On June 26 2015 05:20 las91 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2015 05:17 Sonnington wrote:On June 23 2015 05:00 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On June 23 2015 04:45 MooMooMugi wrote: Reminds me of Chaox all over again, probably has lack of practice due to a girl Can we just stop with it, lol. Nothing prevented Alex Ich from being dominant mid despite being married for almost 2 years at this point. There's a big difference between what American women demand of you and what Russian women demand. i never knew Chaox's excuse was girl troubles lol His girl troubles were different. His was going out hooking up with elo sluts at tournaments and showing up late.
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We assigned our contract to TSM today in exchange for a price, Keith has been released from TL. I'm really happy for him and we'll be figuring out what next steps are for Team Liquid Academy.
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On July 01 2015 16:37 LiQuiD112 wrote: We assigned our contract to TSM today in exchange for a price, Keith has been released from TL. I'm really happy for him and we'll be figuring out what next steps are for Team Liquid Academy. Gl to Keith on TSM and best of luck finding a replacement ADC for liquid academy
hi reddit
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On July 01 2015 17:04 MooMooMugi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 16:37 LiQuiD112 wrote: We assigned our contract to TSM today in exchange for a price, Keith has been released from TL. I'm really happy for him and we'll be figuring out what next steps are for Team Liquid Academy. Gl to Keith on TSM and best of luck finding a replacement ADC for liquid academy Mooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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Hope that TSM switches Keith and Turtle out for lcs similar to CLG and their mid laners, be a shame for turtle to be replaced after improving this past week.
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On July 01 2015 17:07 SandySamuel wrote: Hope that TSM switches Keith and Turtle out for lcs similar to CLG and their mid laners, be a shame for turtle to be replaced after improving this past week. To be fair CLG doesn't really switch out their mid laners like people thought they would, and 2 good games doesn't excuse 2-3 splits of mediocre play, but it's definitely a step in the right direction to #keepkeith so that they have options and can make the change if need be.
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On July 01 2015 17:17 NeoStrides wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 17:07 SandySamuel wrote: Hope that TSM switches Keith and Turtle out for lcs similar to CLG and their mid laners, be a shame for turtle to be replaced after improving this past week. To be fair CLG doesn't really switch out their mid laners like people thought they would, and 2 good games doesn't excuse 2-3 splits of mediocre play, but it's definitely a step in the right direction to #keepkeith so that they have options and can make the change if need be. Not to mention they "intended" to use Stixxay the same way with DL
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Bearded Elder29875 Posts
Best of luck to KEITH. Seems like player transfers can be done in legit way, without any illegal poaching attempts, wp.
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On July 01 2015 16:37 LiQuiD112 wrote: We assigned our contract to TSM today in exchange for a price, Keith has been released from TL. I'm really happy for him and we'll be figuring out what next steps are for Team Liquid Academy. And he tells us directly? Mass respect.
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I think this was a mistake. Keith, if he sticks to it, is going to turn out really solid you watch.
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Good luck Keith. I like Piglet, but the game is entirely more communication based now. You watch TDK now that they are speaking Korean, lets see how they do. Having two people not speak the language is much harder than just one, for that reason alone I think Keith should have been given more time. Again nothing against Piglet, he seems to be fitting in with the team great now, but they should have held on to Keith.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On July 01 2015 20:29 alereu wrote: Good luck Keith. I like Piglet, but the game is entirely more communication based now. You watch TDK now that they are speaking Korean, lets see how they do. Having two people not speak the language is much harder than just one, for that reason alone I think Keith should have been given more time. Again nothing against Piglet, he seems to be fitting in with the team great now, but they should have held on to Keith.
Communication is overrated in League of Legends. Even more than friendship.
On July 01 2015 20:30 krndandaman wrote: thanks for the update, liquid.
this doesn't mean keith is the starter right? just that TSM has his contract and are free to use him in any way they see fit?
Pretty much, just official TSM member now. Like Altec was at some point during his stint in C9T.
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Mmmm Keith gonna get dat sick TSM streaming $$$
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On July 01 2015 17:17 NeoStrides wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 17:07 SandySamuel wrote: Hope that TSM switches Keith and Turtle out for lcs similar to CLG and their mid laners, be a shame for turtle to be replaced after improving this past week. To be fair CLG doesn't really switch out their mid laners like people thought they would, and 2 good games doesn't excuse 2-3 splits of mediocre play, but it's definitely a step in the right direction to #keepkeith so that they have options and can make the change if need be.
"2-3 splits of mediocre play"
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On July 01 2015 20:39 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 20:29 alereu wrote: Good luck Keith. I like Piglet, but the game is entirely more communication based now. You watch TDK now that they are speaking Korean, lets see how they do. Having two people not speak the language is much harder than just one, for that reason alone I think Keith should have been given more time. Again nothing against Piglet, he seems to be fitting in with the team great now, but they should have held on to Keith. Communication is overrated in League of Legends. Even more than friendship. Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 20:30 krndandaman wrote: thanks for the update, liquid.
this doesn't mean keith is the starter right? just that TSM has his contract and are free to use him in any way they see fit? Pretty much, just official TSM member now. Like Altec was at some point during his stint in C9T.
I definitely don't think it's overrated, I think its just more nuanced than people realize.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On July 02 2015 01:28 LimpingGoat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 20:39 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On July 01 2015 20:29 alereu wrote: Good luck Keith. I like Piglet, but the game is entirely more communication based now. You watch TDK now that they are speaking Korean, lets see how they do. Having two people not speak the language is much harder than just one, for that reason alone I think Keith should have been given more time. Again nothing against Piglet, he seems to be fitting in with the team great now, but they should have held on to Keith. Communication is overrated in League of Legends. Even more than friendship. On July 01 2015 20:30 krndandaman wrote: thanks for the update, liquid.
this doesn't mean keith is the starter right? just that TSM has his contract and are free to use him in any way they see fit? Pretty much, just official TSM member now. Like Altec was at some point during his stint in C9T. I definitely don't think it's overrated, I think its just more nuanced than people realize.
"nuanced"
- GOGOGO *insert champ name* + pings.
Holy shit, such communication. 10/12 of LPL teams work like that, TIP is working like that, TDK is working like that and so on. But everyone is still "hurr, proper communication is so hard to develop".
Legit bigger bullshit than "Team can't be successful without XX analysts, bunch of coaches and full Korean infrastructure".
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On June 23 2015 04:37 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 04:27 HyperST wrote: I feel like if the other lanes dont step up soon for TSM (mostly just bot at this point), very soon Bjergsen will be donezo. Done with TSM?
Bjergsen is not best mid in the west. Been confirmed. He isn't even best in NA anymore. He can only play one style and he doesn't impact the game anymore. He needs to be replaced.
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On July 02 2015 02:53 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 01:28 LimpingGoat wrote:On July 01 2015 20:39 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On July 01 2015 20:29 alereu wrote: Good luck Keith. I like Piglet, but the game is entirely more communication based now. You watch TDK now that they are speaking Korean, lets see how they do. Having two people not speak the language is much harder than just one, for that reason alone I think Keith should have been given more time. Again nothing against Piglet, he seems to be fitting in with the team great now, but they should have held on to Keith. Communication is overrated in League of Legends. Even more than friendship. On July 01 2015 20:30 krndandaman wrote: thanks for the update, liquid.
this doesn't mean keith is the starter right? just that TSM has his contract and are free to use him in any way they see fit? Pretty much, just official TSM member now. Like Altec was at some point during his stint in C9T. I definitely don't think it's overrated, I think its just more nuanced than people realize. "nuanced" - GOGOGO *insert champ name* + pings. Holy shit, such communication. 10/12 of LPL teams work like that, TIP is working like that, TDK is working like that and so on. But everyone is still "hurr, proper communication is so hard to develop". Legit bigger bullshit than "Team can't be successful without XX analysts, bunch of coaches and full Korean infrastructure".
I actually think weirdly enough teams with more common language have more communication problems. Communication problems are not as simple as the ability to share information.
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On July 02 2015 03:23 tar0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2015 04:37 Zato-1 wrote:On June 23 2015 04:27 HyperST wrote: I feel like if the other lanes dont step up soon for TSM (mostly just bot at this point), very soon Bjergsen will be donezo. Done with TSM? Bjergsen is not best mid in the west. Been confirmed. He isn't even best in NA anymore. He can only play one style and he doesn't impact the game anymore. He needs to be replaced. lol
Only thing there that is reasonably true is not best mid in west, and even then I doubt that.
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There's a couple guys who could beat Bjerg in a few matchups, a few guys who could beat him on a really good day, but that doesn't mean he's not best in the west.
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On July 02 2015 05:29 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 03:23 tar0 wrote:On June 23 2015 04:37 Zato-1 wrote:On June 23 2015 04:27 HyperST wrote: I feel like if the other lanes dont step up soon for TSM (mostly just bot at this point), very soon Bjergsen will be donezo. Done with TSM? Bjergsen is not best mid in the west. Been confirmed. He isn't even best in NA anymore. He can only play one style and he doesn't impact the game anymore. He needs to be replaced. lol Only thing there that is reasonably true is not best mid in west, and even then I doubt that. Bjergsen was the best western mid pre-IEM, he was ahead of everyone in west. He has fallen at MSI though. Febiven is clearly ahead of every westtern mid laner atm.
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On July 02 2015 05:54 Mensol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 05:29 Gahlo wrote:On July 02 2015 03:23 tar0 wrote:On June 23 2015 04:37 Zato-1 wrote:On June 23 2015 04:27 HyperST wrote: I feel like if the other lanes dont step up soon for TSM (mostly just bot at this point), very soon Bjergsen will be donezo. Done with TSM? Bjergsen is not best mid in the west. Been confirmed. He isn't even best in NA anymore. He can only play one style and he doesn't impact the game anymore. He needs to be replaced. lol Only thing there that is reasonably true is not best mid in west, and even then I doubt that. Bjergsen was the best western mid pre-IEM, he was ahead of everyone in west. He has fallen at MSI though. Febiven is clearly ahead of every westtern mid laner atm. Febiven also benefits from having the best jungler and top laner in the west on his team. Put Bjerg on Fnatic and I guarantee he'd play at a similar level.
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Pootie too good!4331 Posts
On July 01 2015 16:37 LiQuiD112 wrote: We assigned our contract to TSM today in exchange for a price, Keith has been released from TL. I'm really happy for him and we'll be figuring out what next steps are for Team Liquid Academy.
Love to see the transparency, thanks!!
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On July 02 2015 01:27 LimpingGoat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2015 17:17 NeoStrides wrote:On July 01 2015 17:07 SandySamuel wrote: Hope that TSM switches Keith and Turtle out for lcs similar to CLG and their mid laners, be a shame for turtle to be replaced after improving this past week. To be fair CLG doesn't really switch out their mid laners like people thought they would, and 2 good games doesn't excuse 2-3 splits of mediocre play, but it's definitely a step in the right direction to #keepkeith so that they have options and can make the change if need be. "2-3 splits of mediocre play" Am I wrong? Maybe he's been average, but i don't see how you can argue that he's been above average at all.
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On July 02 2015 06:09 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 05:54 Mensol wrote:On July 02 2015 05:29 Gahlo wrote:On July 02 2015 03:23 tar0 wrote:On June 23 2015 04:37 Zato-1 wrote:On June 23 2015 04:27 HyperST wrote: I feel like if the other lanes dont step up soon for TSM (mostly just bot at this point), very soon Bjergsen will be donezo. Done with TSM? Bjergsen is not best mid in the west. Been confirmed. He isn't even best in NA anymore. He can only play one style and he doesn't impact the game anymore. He needs to be replaced. lol Only thing there that is reasonably true is not best mid in west, and even then I doubt that. Bjergsen was the best western mid pre-IEM, he was ahead of everyone in west. He has fallen at MSI though. Febiven is clearly ahead of every westtern mid laner atm. Febiven also benefits from having the best jungler and top laner in the west on his team. Put Bjerg on Fnatic and I guarantee he'd play at a similar level. I'd agree if you said this two months ago but now, nope. It's not about team, Bjergsen underperforming since MSI. Of couse he is still good but not as good as he used to be.
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On July 02 2015 06:15 NeoStrides wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 01:27 LimpingGoat wrote:On July 01 2015 17:17 NeoStrides wrote:On July 01 2015 17:07 SandySamuel wrote: Hope that TSM switches Keith and Turtle out for lcs similar to CLG and their mid laners, be a shame for turtle to be replaced after improving this past week. To be fair CLG doesn't really switch out their mid laners like people thought they would, and 2 good games doesn't excuse 2-3 splits of mediocre play, but it's definitely a step in the right direction to #keepkeith so that they have options and can make the change if need be. "2-3 splits of mediocre play" Am I wrong? Maybe he's been average, but i don't see how you can argue that he's been above average at all.
I don't know how about you look at his stats, he's been a top 3 ADC if not higher for like his entire time on TSM. Only recently, as in this split has he truly fallen off.
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On July 02 2015 07:25 LimpingGoat wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 06:15 NeoStrides wrote:On July 02 2015 01:27 LimpingGoat wrote:On July 01 2015 17:17 NeoStrides wrote:On July 01 2015 17:07 SandySamuel wrote: Hope that TSM switches Keith and Turtle out for lcs similar to CLG and their mid laners, be a shame for turtle to be replaced after improving this past week. To be fair CLG doesn't really switch out their mid laners like people thought they would, and 2 good games doesn't excuse 2-3 splits of mediocre play, but it's definitely a step in the right direction to #keepkeith so that they have options and can make the change if need be. "2-3 splits of mediocre play" Am I wrong? Maybe he's been average, but i don't see how you can argue that he's been above average at all. I don't know how about you look at his stats, he's been a top 3 ADC if not higher for like his entire time on TSM. Only recently, as in this split has he truly fallen off. You are talking about only NA right? not overall?
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On July 02 2015 08:07 Mensol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 07:25 LimpingGoat wrote:On July 02 2015 06:15 NeoStrides wrote:On July 02 2015 01:27 LimpingGoat wrote:On July 01 2015 17:17 NeoStrides wrote:On July 01 2015 17:07 SandySamuel wrote: Hope that TSM switches Keith and Turtle out for lcs similar to CLG and their mid laners, be a shame for turtle to be replaced after improving this past week. To be fair CLG doesn't really switch out their mid laners like people thought they would, and 2 good games doesn't excuse 2-3 splits of mediocre play, but it's definitely a step in the right direction to #keepkeith so that they have options and can make the change if need be. "2-3 splits of mediocre play" Am I wrong? Maybe he's been average, but i don't see how you can argue that he's been above average at all. I don't know how about you look at his stats, he's been a top 3 ADC if not higher for like his entire time on TSM. Only recently, as in this split has he truly fallen off. You are talking about only NA right? not overall? Only NA. At least, the article that I think he's getting from was focused on NA.
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On July 02 2015 08:07 Mensol wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2015 07:25 LimpingGoat wrote:On July 02 2015 06:15 NeoStrides wrote:On July 02 2015 01:27 LimpingGoat wrote:On July 01 2015 17:17 NeoStrides wrote:On July 01 2015 17:07 SandySamuel wrote: Hope that TSM switches Keith and Turtle out for lcs similar to CLG and their mid laners, be a shame for turtle to be replaced after improving this past week. To be fair CLG doesn't really switch out their mid laners like people thought they would, and 2 good games doesn't excuse 2-3 splits of mediocre play, but it's definitely a step in the right direction to #keepkeith so that they have options and can make the change if need be. "2-3 splits of mediocre play" Am I wrong? Maybe he's been average, but i don't see how you can argue that he's been above average at all. I don't know how about you look at his stats, he's been a top 3 ADC if not higher for like his entire time on TSM. Only recently, as in this split has he truly fallen off. You are talking about only NA right? not overall?
There really isn't enough international competition to get a good picture but I know he had the best stats of any Western ADC at S4 Worlds.
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Turtle did really well last week too. TSM's management makes it really hard for me to cheer for TSM.
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I want this move to work but I can't help but think that the synergy between Lust and Keith might be lacking
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On July 02 2015 08:48 jack342342 wrote: I want this move to work but I can't help but think that the synergy between Lust and Keith might be lacking Dank meme synergy is as strong as steel beams.
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On July 02 2015 08:24 K3Nyy wrote: Turtle did really well last week too. TSM's management makes it really hard for me to cheer for TSM. At least trying Keith in a real game to give him a chance seems absolutely fair to me.
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Its smart for the team as well because actual LCS games are the best place to actually judge. I guess it depends on who they are playing this week? Maybe they have a softer schedule so they want to test it out then.
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I wouldn't describe Turtle's most recent splits as mediocre, I'd describe them as inconsistent. He'd have some good games but he'd also have performances where he'd be a skillshot magnet and it would cost TSM games. An ADC's stats are always going to be misleading when you have by far the best player in the region as your midlaner so I don't consider them all that relevant.
For me the main problem with Turtle is that he's not the ADC TSM needs. TSM has Bjergsen. Absolute beast of a player and head and shoulders above anyone else in the region. They need a safe, reliable carry, who'll farm well, show up to team fights, output at much damage as possible from a safe distance and clean up after the enemy has burned everything on Bjergsen. Turtle's positioning is more aggressive and we've all seen the questionable (at best) Flashes supposedly "because he gets bored". When you have Bjergsen you don't need to play that risky and that Turtle never adjusted his style is for me an indicator that he didn't understand his changing role on the team. I see Keith as a much better fit for TSM.
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On July 02 2015 08:24 K3Nyy wrote: Turtle did really well last week too. TSM's management makes it really hard for me to cheer for TSM.
As a TSM fan I really appreciate the fact that they are giving Keith the fair shot that they promised him, even if the whole thing came about as a way to motivate turtle.
And unlike CLG fans it's easy for me to have faith in TSM's management since they generally tend to work out.
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Inb4 Keith becomes the easyhoon to Turtle's Faker.
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I don't think Turtle has any reason to be mentioned with Faker. I guess unless you displayed a line graph of League player's skill and then I guess you'd say: |Bronze League Players------Turtle-----Faker|
No but seriously I think that giving Keith a shot is worth it. Lustboy has been underperforming recently too and I can't help but think it might have something to do with his adc having many lackluster performances. Keith could be considered as an upgrade to two positions instead of one if he meshes well with Lustcena.
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so the switch is not permanent right? well goodluck for keith but hopefully wildturtle can get like a 'jolt' and increase his gameplay after this goodluck for both!!!
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