1-5 refers to the priority system for farm/experience in dota (position 1 has the highest priority, position 5 has the lowest). Typical 1 position champs are your adc since it is that person's job to "carry" a team through the raw damage output the champion does. Position 2 champions are usually the ap champion, although sometimes the top laner could be prioritized more (ie jax/irelia/darius). Position 4/5 are usually for jungler/support, hopefully, for obvious reasons.
Why should LoL adopt this system? Because too many people are locked into this "lane" ideology, that the way to win the game is to win your lane (win lane, lose game syndrome). Lets take soraka as an example. If someone were to pick soraka and play her in the mid lane (position 2), she is getting a solo lane's worth of farm and exp. but what is her role in a teamfight? unless you have 3k hp with massive armor/mr, you will not have the survivability to stand in the middle of the enemy team spamming ur q to maximize your raw damage. in most situations, even if you are playing soraka mid, you will be most likely staying behind ur "tanks", and ur main task in teamfights is to use ur heals to allies that need them as well as silencing high priority targets (ie cassiopeia/ryze). now lets say the support is a malphite. the malphite will mostly be used for his ult engage. however, there is very little damage associated with the engage, so malphite would have to rely on his teammate (namely soraka in this example) to actually do the damage necessary. Lets review this hypothetical situation. Soraka still needs to be very close to the enemy to do any real damage, and this damage takes a while to get there. malphite provided a great initiation initiation that cannot be easily abused by the mid soraka. in most situations, the gold/exp from the mid lane is better used on malphite instead of soraka since his raw damage from building ap is much higher than soraka's. You could have very well dominated the mid lane as soraka, but you would still lose the teamfight if you cannot get close enough to spam your q at the enemy. Of course, you can argue that the heals make up for the lack of damage. However, you cannot guarantee that the damage will come from your team (missing the adc, team gets caught, team comprises of low damage, support oriented champs). Thus, in this situation, the 2nd position is more or less wasted on a champion who may not do the necessary damage needed in a teamfight.
The example I gave is very extreme. Most of the shuffling in position is between position 2 and 3 (typically the mid and top laners). Lets say you have a gragas mid and jax top. who should be prioritized for gold/exp. purely from the "laning" concept, the mid is the "carry" and the top is the "bruiser". This is implied that the mid champion will do more damage for the team than the top can given the items/levels. Most people would agree that jax needs a lot of end-game items to essentially 1v5 the enemy team. Gragas, however, only really requires a deathcap/void staff/sorc boots to be happy when tossing barrels/ults. The jax would take position 2 in this setup while gragas takes position 3. An example of where position 2 would be given to the mid is when there is a champion like karthus, since there is more guaranteed damage coming out of a farmed karthus. What about the jungler? Well, it depends on what jungler you are playing. If you are amumu, the only thing ur team needs of you is to bandage toss ur way into the enemy team and lock down everyone with ur ult. you can do this with purely levels were it not for ur fragility without hp/mr/armor. Thus, it really does not matter how badly you got shutdown by invades as long as you can make clutch ults happen for your team. Sometimes, you see junglers like master yi (famously atlanta). Team comps that have these kind of junglers require the jungler to take a higher position on the team.
(montecristo analyzing atlanta's jungle yi)
If you look at the team comp, we have kennen top and maokai mid. Kennen went the standard WotA while maokai went straight tank. But of course, someone needs to tank right? If that were the case, why isnt maokai in the jungle and let master yi take a solo lane. after all, it is more gold for yi. This is a prime situation for the 1-5 system. Maokai (position 3), with all the ap he can get, will not outdamage master yi (position 4) when given the same gold. Absolutely cannot. Maokai needs the initial gold to get to a tanky position for himself, after which any more gold invested in tanky items is the cherry on top. This is where the gold focus is given on master yi. In the midgame, maokai essentially goes around with the team trying to gank the enemy. He is now tanky enough to dive into the team, causing havoc, and coming out alive even without his ult. In the meantime, master yi comes in and cleans up teamfights. The gold priority has shifted from maokai to master yi. In other words, anything that master yi could do to get more gold will be more impactful than anything maokai could do to get more gold. In this case, the way to get master yi more gold is to take the global objectives as well as killing enemy champions. This is where master yi takes the 2nd position over kennen and maokai. The more gold master yi gets after the laning phase, the more impact he will have on the teamfights.
But this is all pretty obvious, isn't it? And yet, people do not realize the true impact of this system. Lets draw up a hypothetical situation. Say the team comp in question comprises of an irelia top and a karthus mid. Irelia managed to get a double kill on top early due to a failed gank attempt. She now has a tremendous advantage over top. Karthus, however, has had mediocre farm and is getting pushed around by an aggressive mid. By 15 min, irelia has a full triforce along with a t1 boots. karthus only has a catalyst/sorc boots and is saving up for the blasting wand. What should the team do to solidify this advantage for irelia? Does she stay in lane and continue to bully the underleveled enemy top lane or sacrifice her farm/presence at top lane to help karthus? In most situations, she should rotate mid so that karthus could have an easier time getting the farm he needs (keep in mind that by rotating out of your lane, you are giving space to the enemy top lane to farm up and get levels). This could come from kills/tower pressure/contesting enemy blue/dragon. Because irelia will not get substantially stronger after the triforce, her priority should be helping karthus get farmed up. Even though it seems irelia's impact on teamfights is much greater than karthus, karthus still benefits more than irelia given the same gold. This is because irelia experiences an upward-sloping plateau in terms of teamfight usefulness.
How will the dota 1-5 system help lol players? By reminding them of who the carries are and how to get those people more ahead. A darius should be happy to forfeit some farm or even lane if it means he can help snowball a hypercarry like kogmaw. A katarina should be basically camping for jax to hasten jax's lategame potential. The 1-5 system should help some players elevate their play by focusing on what is important for the team composition and how to best play their role to help the team win.
1) There is no way to enforce this as farm priority will fluctuate depending on team comp. 2) Solo queue is solo queue 3) In pubs everyone will try to instalock a priority 1 champion rather than simply calling top, mid, or ADC, so you just trade one form of stupidity for another. 4) It really isn't that obvious to many people, and with the general selfish mentality people will continue to remain oblivious. 5) What do you do when you have multiple carries? Say Jax top, Anivia or Karthus mid, Ezreal ADC, and Lee or Olaf jungle?
Soraka's role in a teamfight is to be a support but with a ton more gold. You shouldn't expect her to paly the same really careful I can't do anything style when she can do a lot of things. With the amount of actives in s3 for supports to get its really legit for a mid support type. Its just extensively boring to do. Staying behind the tank line doesn't mean that your completely away from the fight.
Ap casters scale extensively. I don't know any ap carry that would be "happy" with just dcap void sorcboots. DFG/Landrys/rylias or whatever your fancy makes the ap carry exponentially better while a brusier like jax only needs 1 or 2 items (ga/tf/nashors) to get out of control and do what they need to do.
You then compare a ganker into support type champ (maokai) and say how hes not going to do the same amount of damage that yi is going to do. That makes complete sense but that doesn't mean that yi is anywhere near the quality of jungler compared to maos ganking. Maokai has reposition/snare and an aoe ult that helps out a ton in teamfights. Yi on the other hand has nothing to help anyone but himself so ofc hes gotta out damage maokai.
Why should the Irelia go mid and help out a weaker lane while she lets that under leveled top farm back up get back in the game and take her tower for free? Its the junglers problem to help out a losing lane not the top champ. Irelia will get subsantialy stronger with more items and will prove ever stronger by denying the other top from getting the same items. Irelia needs/wants GA just as badly and for the same reasons that jax does.
This really doesn't make sense and would only hurt most players in their games. Dictating farm to people is for after the lane phase ends and when you're just blindly pushing lanes down to get towers and other objectives. Its not some weird doctrine where you throw away a snowball on some players so another can be slightly less behind.
On January 06 2013 03:50 NEOtheONE wrote: Except there are several problems:
1) There is no way to enforce this as farm priority will fluctuate depending on team comp. 2) Solo queue is solo queue 3) In pubs everyone will try to instalock a priority 1 champion rather than simply calling top, mid, or ADC, so you just trade one form of stupidity for another. 4) It really isn't that obvious to many people, and with the general selfish mentality people will continue to remain oblivious.
#2~4 are the biggest reasons this will never work. People just want to be that carrying hero and have a reason to stroke their e-peens.
It's pretty hard to find reasonable and rational people in LoL...
Here's how 95% of all-pick drafts go in dota(unless you are Very very high mmr or play in a stack): Random pick,random pick,random pick,drow pick "guys we need a support" "np" Riki pick. ˇAnd yea cm mode is mostly used in competitive dota and not pub games.
It should be noted that in DotA the 1-5 "system" is mostly used in competitive or arranged play to describe which position a player plays. League however has much more static laning in comparison meaning a "support player" will mostly play lane support while a "jungler" will be jungling.
In DotA #5 can mean a roaming gank support or a more defensive lane support. A #4 can be a second roamer, a jungler or a lane support who secures his own development with so called jungle pulls. Since the actual role is rather flexible (but the intended overall farm priority isn't) this type of system makes much more sense in DotA.
Also it's important to understand that especially in competitive play the actual farm priority can heavily shift depending on the current situation. A classic example would be 2-3 people protecting the #4 farming for his Blink Dagger. That's equivalent to your jungler and top lane helping your support clear some jungle camps/a big creepwave so he can finish his Shurelyas in time. Stuff like that isn't as common in League as it is in DotA.
On January 06 2013 03:50 NEOtheONE wrote: Except there are several problems:
1) There is no way to enforce this as farm priority will fluctuate depending on team comp. 2) Solo queue is solo queue 3) In pubs everyone will try to instalock a priority 1 champion rather than simply calling top, mid, or ADC, so you just trade one form of stupidity for another. 4) It really isn't that obvious to many people, and with the general selfish mentality people will continue to remain oblivious.
#2~4 are the biggest reasons this will never work. People just want to be that carrying hero and have a reason to stroke their e-peens.
It's pretty hard to find reasonable and rational people in LoL...
2-4 are for people who dont want to improve or play to win. you wouldnt explain bw strategy to people who only play tower defense or the campaign. similarily, you wouldnt expect people who like screwing around to play properly. if people truly want to get better, then something like this can only help better their understanding of the game
On January 06 2013 04:03 TheKefka wrote: Here's how 95% of all-pick drafts go in dota(unless you are Very very high mmr or play in a stack): Random pick,random pick,random pick,drow pick "guys we need a support" "np" Riki pick. ˇAnd yea cm mode is mostly used in competitive dota and not pub games.
This doesn't sound too far off from LoL.
But in rare cases (someone actually picks a legit support), it makes LoL look like the Catholic church.
On January 06 2013 04:08 Sermokala wrote: Here's how 95% of all-pick drafts go in dota(unless you are Very very high mmr or play in a stack): Random pick,random pick,random pick,drow pick "guys we need a support" "Я получил эту парней" Riki pick. ˇAnd yea cm mode is mostly used in competitive dota and not pub games.
On January 06 2013 04:03 TheKefka wrote: Here's how 95% of all-pick drafts go in dota(unless you are Very very high mmr or play in a stack): Random pick,random pick,random pick,drow pick "guys we need a support" "Я получил эту парней" Riki pick. ˇAnd yea cm mode is mostly used in competitive dota and not pub games.
On January 06 2013 04:03 TheKefka wrote: Here's how 95% of all-pick drafts go in dota(unless you are Very very high mmr or play in a stack): Random pick,random pick,random pick,drow pick "guys we need a support" "np" Riki pick. ˇAnd yea cm mode is mostly used in competitive dota and not pub games.
This doesn't sound too far off from LoL.
But in rare cases (someone actually picks a legit support), it makes LoL look like the Catholic church.
The difference is if you want to avoid the above in LoL you play ranked and from my experience people mostly pick according to the meta there.
On January 06 2013 04:03 TheKefka wrote: Here's how 95% of all-pick drafts go in dota(unless you are Very very high mmr or play in a stack): Random pick,random pick,random pick,drow pick "guys we need a support" "Я получил эту парней" Riki pick. ˇAnd yea cm mode is mostly used in competitive dota and not pub games.
On January 06 2013 03:55 Sermokala wrote: Lets break this down.
Soraka's role in a teamfight is to be a support but with a ton more gold. You shouldn't expect her to paly the same really careful I can't do anything style when she can do a lot of things. With the amount of actives in s3 for supports to get its really legit for a mid support type. Its just extensively boring to do. Staying behind the tank line doesn't mean that your completely away from the fight.
Ap casters scale extensively. I don't know any ap carry that would be "happy" with just dcap void sorcboots. DFG/Landrys/rylias or whatever your fancy makes the ap carry exponentially better while a brusier like jax only needs 1 or 2 items (ga/tf/nashors) to get out of control and do what they need to do.
You then compare a ganker into support type champ (maokai) and say how hes not going to do the same amount of damage that yi is going to do. That makes complete sense but that doesn't mean that yi is anywhere near the quality of jungler compared to maos ganking. Maokai has reposition/snare and an aoe ult that helps out a ton in teamfights. Yi on the other hand has nothing to help anyone but himself so ofc hes gotta out damage maokai.
Why should the Irelia go mid and help out a weaker lane while she lets that under leveled top farm back up get back in the game and take her tower for free? Its the junglers problem to help out a losing lane not the top champ. Irelia will get subsantialy stronger with more items and will prove ever stronger by denying the other top from getting the same items. Irelia needs/wants GA just as badly and for the same reasons that jax does.
This really doesn't make sense and would only hurt most players in their games. Dictating farm to people is for after the lane phase ends and when you're just blindly pushing lanes down to get towers and other objectives. Its not some weird doctrine where you throw away a snowball on some players so another can be slightly less behind.
The examples I gave only represent a small portion of the possibilities out there. The point is to get the overall message across, that the champs that will do the most consistent damage should be prioritized for farm. Soraka can stay right behind a tank for all i care, but unless her q is going to hit all the targets she needs to be hitting, which is mostly not the case, she will be forced to stay back in order for her sustained damage/heal to play a big role.
Every champ would love 6 items built up. the question is who can get away with only a handful. If you have cap/void/sorc boots, of course you would want an abyssal/zhonya. The question is, can you still be effective in teamfights without so many items built up. For AD carry, you need at least a BF upgrade, AS item like PD or Shiv, and preferably some ArPen item. That is 3 late game item the AD carry needs to build up in order to mow down the enemy tanks. A gragas with just deathcap/mpen would be content in the mid-game since all he really does is poking the enemy team down. Jax typically builds triforce/ga/some lifesteal. Although you can contest that lifesteal may not be necessary, it does substantially increase jax's potency by surviving the fights longer. Overall though, depending on the situation, Jax may need same if not more farm than most mids.
I used master yi jungle as an example of when you transition to focus of gold from a mid to a jungler. most pub games, master yi would be a terrible jungler, but we are not really talking about pub games. If a pro team were to play master yi in the jungle tomorrow, they would have to take that into consideration and create plays so that the yi gets farmed up, which effectively make up for yi's ganking potential. I could have said the jungler was ashe and the same concept would still apply.
I dont understand how you reach that conclusion for irelia. I never said you completely abandon ur top lane to camp for mid. I simply said that it may be more beneficial to roam mid than to stay in your lane. If singed is 5-0 against a teemo, would staying in top really benefit the team more than if singed ran mid or into the enemy jungle? If you leave your lane too long, then yes you could potentially throw a big advantage. But there is nothing wrong with pushing the wave to the enemy tower, run down, gank or take buffs, then rotate top
"Its the junglers problem to help out a losing lane not the top champ" is probably the bane of LoL. If bot needs camping from the jungler, and mid needs some help, are you suggesting that top should do nothing? If you have control of your lane, dont you think it is good for the team to alleviate some of the pressure off the jungler? The jungler cant be camping 3 lanes at once.
The laning phase will remain the laning phase. However, most people cannot transition out of the laning phase. If it is more beneficial for you to stay in lane and farm up/deny your opponent then do that. If it is more beneficial for you to roam then you should roam. This isnt some wierd doctrine, it is a guideline people can loosely follow
Doesn't really work that well in LoL because lanes are more static and there is less of an assymetrical power curve. Changes in game of farm priority are common in both games but do not determine the number of position, like has been said before. If the #4(Lets say its an Earthshaker) wants a blink dagger ~20min ingame then the 3-(and maybe the 2) will give up some farm for that, however it does not change that he plays the 4th position overall because he is drafted as such. The number position system is more of a thing of the draft in Dota(aswell as a certain player assignment). They can change depending on the game. Moreover, Heroes in Dota can often also play multiple positions, this is not the case in LoL. An AD will never be an AP and an AP will never be an AD. On the other hand a Furion can play anything from a 2 to a 4 position(arguably 1 to 4). The exceptions to these would be Zyra(who can be build as AP mid if I am not mistaken) and Lux. In the past Lulu and Soraka were possible aswell, they can fullfill multiple roles(Support or AP mid) and as such could be classified as that.
Different games different terms, I don't see anything wrong with the current system.
On January 06 2013 04:47 Kipsate wrote: Doesn't really work that well in LoL because lanes are more static and there is less of an assymetrical power curve. Changes in game of farm priority are common in both games but do not determine the number of position, like has been said before. If the #4(Lets say its an Earthshaker) wants a blink dagger ~20min ingame then the 3-(and maybe the 2) will give up some farm for that, however it does not change that he plays the 4th position overall because he is drafted as such. The number position system is more of a thing of the draft in Dota(aswell as a certain player assignment). They can change depending on the game. Moreover, Heroes in Dota can often also play multiple positions, this is not the case in LoL. An AD will never be an AP and an AP will never be an AD. On the other hand a Furion can play anything from a 1 to a 4 position(arguably 2 to 4)
Different games different terms, I don't see anything wrong with the current system.
Also in b4 Yango.
Yi and Kennen can switch between AP and AD. Then there's Teemo. So there are a couple exceptions.
Yes I realized that after writing it(my mistake), however it is a lot less common and due to them not having a wild assymsetric power curve difference like in Dota there is less of an impact in terms of farm priority. The ones I listed(Lux and Zyra) do however scale differently in a sense. They can make great use of the farm and play AP mid but they don't need to and can play support. AP mid Lux and Zyra will perform exponentially better then their support counterparts. This is less the case in Yi and Teemo(but still the case).
On January 06 2013 03:55 Sermokala wrote: Lets break this down.
Soraka's role in a teamfight is to be a support but with a ton more gold. You shouldn't expect her to paly the same really careful I can't do anything style when she can do a lot of things. With the amount of actives in s3 for supports to get its really legit for a mid support type. Its just extensively boring to do. Staying behind the tank line doesn't mean that your completely away from the fight.
Ap casters scale extensively. I don't know any ap carry that would be "happy" with just dcap void sorcboots. DFG/Landrys/rylias or whatever your fancy makes the ap carry exponentially better while a brusier like jax only needs 1 or 2 items (ga/tf/nashors) to get out of control and do what they need to do.
You then compare a ganker into support type champ (maokai) and say how hes not going to do the same amount of damage that yi is going to do. That makes complete sense but that doesn't mean that yi is anywhere near the quality of jungler compared to maos ganking. Maokai has reposition/snare and an aoe ult that helps out a ton in teamfights. Yi on the other hand has nothing to help anyone but himself so ofc hes gotta out damage maokai.
Why should the Irelia go mid and help out a weaker lane while she lets that under leveled top farm back up get back in the game and take her tower for free? Its the junglers problem to help out a losing lane not the top champ. Irelia will get subsantialy stronger with more items and will prove ever stronger by denying the other top from getting the same items. Irelia needs/wants GA just as badly and for the same reasons that jax does.
This really doesn't make sense and would only hurt most players in their games. Dictating farm to people is for after the lane phase ends and when you're just blindly pushing lanes down to get towers and other objectives. Its not some weird doctrine where you throw away a snowball on some players so another can be slightly less behind.
The examples I gave only represent a small portion of the possibilities out there. The point is to get the overall message across, that the champs that will do the most consistent damage should be prioritized for farm. Soraka can stay right behind a tank for all i care, but unless her q is going to hit all the targets she needs to be hitting, which is mostly not the case, she will be forced to stay back in order for her sustained damage/heal to play a big role.
Every champ would love 6 items built up. the question is who can get away with only a handful. If you have cap/void/sorc boots, of course you would want an abyssal/zhonya. The question is, can you still be effective in teamfights without so many items built up. For AD carry, you need at least a BF upgrade, AS item like PD or Shiv, and preferably some ArPen item. That is 3 late game item the AD carry needs to build up in order to mow down the enemy tanks. A gragas with just deathcap/mpen would be content in the mid-game since all he really does is poking the enemy team down. Jax typically builds triforce/ga/some lifesteal. Although you can contest that lifesteal may not be necessary, it does substantially increase jax's potency by surviving the fights longer. Overall though, depending on the situation, Jax may need same if not more farm than most mids.
I used master yi jungle as an example of when you transition to focus of gold from a mid to a jungler. most pub games, master yi would be a terrible jungler, but we are not really talking about pub games. If a pro team were to play master yi in the jungle tomorrow, they would have to take that into consideration and create plays so that the yi gets farmed up, which effectively make up for yi's ganking potential. I could have said the jungler was ashe and the same concept would still apply.
I dont understand how you reach that conclusion for irelia. I never said you completely abandon ur top lane to camp for mid. I simply said that it may be more beneficial to roam mid than to stay in your lane. If singed is 5-0 against a teemo, would staying in top really benefit the team more than if singed ran mid or into the enemy jungle? If you leave your lane too long, then yes you could potentially throw a big advantage. But there is nothing wrong with pushing the wave to the enemy tower, run down, gank or take buffs, then rotate top
"Its the junglers problem to help out a losing lane not the top champ" is probably the bane of LoL. If bot needs camping from the jungler, and mid needs some help, are you suggesting that top should do nothing? If you have control of your lane, dont you think it is good for the team to alleviate some of the pressure off the jungler? The jungler cant be camping 3 lanes at once.
The laning phase will remain the laning phase. However, most people cannot transition out of the laning phase. If it is more beneficial for you to stay in lane and farm up/deny your opponent then do that. If it is more beneficial for you to roam then you should roam. This isnt some wierd doctrine, it is a guideline people can loosely follow
Its going to be the case if theres a teamfight and the enemy is doing anything at all to get to your adc whos killing them. and like I said this isn't support I can't take a hit anymore soraka this is mid soraka where she has a ton of tankyness and can suvive for a while on top of not being the first second or third priority target that people are going for.
Ap carrys do more then just "poke the enemy team down" when their purpose is to burst down low targets when they get the opertunity to. Gragas has the ability to catch people out of posision really well in order to be able to lock them up and kill them with the adc. The amount of items that the ap carry has to accomplice this goal is in no way comparable to the triforce/ga that bruisers like irelia and jax want/need to do their roles. Having more items will simple help them do it better for ap carrys. Ad carrys need a few items before they can take over the game like they need to in late game but that doesn't mean they don't do damage before that. Brusiers are "content" with 2 items ap carrys arn't. A GA helps jax survive long enough in team fights he doesn't "need" lifesteal.
Yi is a jungler hes going to do jungler things. hes not gona have his team "create plays to open up space for him to farm when that same farm would be better off going to the adc. He can just tax the lanes and get the farm on his own. If 2 lanes are behind then the jungler should just gank and roam between them not just do nothing.
It doesnt work when teams are not organised 5's. This is because games will be won off 1 lane snowballing and being able to carry the rest of the team or lanes to victory. If a lanes winning so hard that the opponent is underleveled and crippled you may as well just kill the tower and get some more early gold to extend your lead instead of swapping a lane, drawing out the laning phase and ending up with weird matchups that most people wont have any experience playing.
This thread is sort of funny because almost every game will have support jungler top mid AD and it'll generally be 5 4 3 2 1, with some variance with top 3. LoL has much much better and more frequent 1-5 system in pubs than DotA does.
oddly enough, yeah. most supports and a sizable percentage of junglers don't come in lane to just clear waves and just let the laners instead. and a good number of people will give up farm to the ADC after lane phase is over.
On January 07 2013 01:25 Shikyo wrote: This thread is sort of funny because almost every game will have support jungler top mid AD and it'll generally be 5 4 3 2 1, with some variance with top 3. LoL has much much better and more frequent 1-5 system in pubs than DotA does.
This really only breaks down when someone tries to play like Zilean/Karma mid in a pub game and overfarms him/her. But this is a problem with the player not adapting to the champ they picked, not the way that farm is usually distributed.
Yeah LoL's farm is generally well enforced given how often supports comply to not farming. It's generally only an issue when a jungler top or a mid (2-4 positions) take farm away from the AD carry (1) position. But I think most people know how well an AD carry scales compared to other champs.
I always thought the farm position was more important (and therefore enforced) in DotA because many champions scale significantly worse than their LoL counterparts. AP casters don't scale as well as ADCs, but they can still put the farm to good use all the way to their 6th item, and you get some APs that are downright broken with full builds (Ryze quickly comes to mind).
This only takes your own team's farm into account.
If putting a position 3 in mid means you're completely shutting down the enemy team's position 2 farm... You're probably going to do better than putting your position 2 in mid and letting their position 2 also get amazing farm.
It works this way in Dota 2, it isn't completely about farm priorities, it is also about winning your lane. This is why you see tri-lanes a lot, it ensures you win your lane and your top farm priority gets all the CS. This is mitigated by the enemy using a versatile off-laner (such as darkseer or beastmaster) who can still manage to get farm against a tri-lane without risking feeding kills to the enemy strong lane. As a result this means your other two lanes are in a position to win/draw their lanes while you're sacrificing as little as possible to a guaranteed losing lane.
It is also why you don't always have a jungler in Dota2, because if you have more people in lane you have a higher chance of winning that lane and denying your enemy's farm. This comes at the cost of your own team's farm.
I'm really surprised that the reaction to this is so negative. There are definitely junglers that benefit enough from extra farm that taxing lanes is viable (Yi is used as the OP's example, with a maokai example top who could go roaming/ganking while leaving Yi to farm his lane. Or Yi could gank the lane (relying on Lane CC from maokai and his own damage) and then if the gank is successful, take a heavy gank tax to represent the non-standard farm priority.
Teams like CLG EU could benefit from understanding this farm priority too - their defensive playstyle COULD be used to give Yellowpete space to farm according to a #1 position rather than having froggen at the #1 position and farming all 3 lanes.
Especially when you have random creepwaves that, as a team, you are in no hurry to clear out - for example, the team wants to wait for their own creeps before pushing a tower together, but their own creeps are a ways back and you'd have to wait ~10 seconds for them. The enemy wave does not necessarily need to be wiped out before your own gets there. Most of the time, I see the entire team NUKE THE FUCK out of the wave (even in pro games) when you COULD donate that wave to the ADC (or whoever you have prioritized for your #1 farm position)
Designating farm priority is a concept many league players - even at the pro level - don't seem to have. I've sometimes seen korean teams sometimes showcase their understanding of it, but not consistently. Even the "standard" farm priority of ADC > Solo laners > Jungler > Support can carry a greater understanding that there is a farm priority. (stop taking all of pete's waves, froggen)
And really, I don't understand why everyone is nitpicking over the Soraka example. Let's say we have the lane phase mostly over. Soraka has Abyssal, Jax has Triforce. Who's going to bring more from a third big item? Jax. Not a contest. Now, this isn't to say that Soraka should take 0 CS from now on - just that if there's opportunities to choose easily, gold would be funneled towards Jax over Soraka. In this case, Jax is #2 (or perhaps even #1 over the ADC maybe, but probably #2?) and Soraka is #3. But other AP vs Top laners, you'd clearly put the AP carry at #2 and the top laner at #3.
On January 06 2013 04:18 Kenpachi wrote: wasnt this already being followed?
Froggen says no.
He's got one of the worst solo queue mentalities ive ever seen for a progamer. Whats that yellow pete needs farm? Already 500 cs 6 item LEE SIN? better make yellow pete clean up 6 minion waves while i take all the big ones, even though i have no need for anymore farm.
I don't think anyone is against the idea of farm priority being important, just that scrapping traditional roles for a 1-5 system probably isn't possible for the majority of the community or even a particularly accurate way of allocating farm given you ideally want multiple sources of both types of damage to make counter building more difficult.
Definitely wouldn't work for solo queue. Can you imagine the amount of Froggenesque farm hogs you'd get. "Doesn't matter that I picked Nami, I called #1 noobz!!!!1 Stop taking my cs!!!"
You want champions who scale well to take farm. You also want people who carry to take farm. Lee scales well and Froggen carries, hence Froggen takes the farm. I see nothing wrong.
ADs should get the priority, but only when they're in a position to carry. In 5s, some junglers benefit more from farm than laners. Otherwise the priority should be obvious. In solo queue it's free for all. The most important rule is just that you want people who scale with gold to take farm. What your champion does in team fights doesn't matter.
On January 07 2013 18:43 zulu_nation8 wrote: You want champions who scale well to take farm. You also want people who carry to take farm. Lee scales well and Froggen carries, hence Froggen takes the farm. I see nothing wrong.
The specific scenario in question was at a point when Froggen had 6 items, and the only use left for his gold was chugging pots or selling items to replace them.
I could be wrong, but how I read this article is not that the 1-5 idea should be law, but be considered throughout champ select and game. Ideally with this priority system supports and initiators will be less likely to run off to hold a lane or to take a large pack of farm and allow a 1-3 to go take it.
What I really like about this system, and will start talking about with my group of friends that i play with, is that the rankings can shift throughout a game. For example, a lot of tops and mids have a core set of items, that once they have, are at their peak of efficiency that can be acquired through items. [To be clear, all champs are their strongest at lvl 18 with 6 items but not all champs are equal at lvl 18 with 6 items so it would be smart to identify how strong you are compared to the enemy through out the game with certain sets of items and to find when you, or team, is stronger than the enemy ]
So once they get this set of items they can stop focusing on getting farm and let the natural gold they get through natural gold gain, towers, and dragons will carry them through the rest of the game. Thus allowing champs lower on the list to get more farm or champs that struggles in laning to get back into the game.
Obviously the system need a bit of refinement but I do like the mentality prioritizing gold needs for champs and adjusting early and mid game goals and lanes to meet the needs of champs selected. This is far off from solo queue play but I always love ideas that help refine LoL play. Thx OP for bringing this up
On January 07 2013 18:43 zulu_nation8 wrote: You want champions who scale well to take farm. You also want people who carry to take farm. Lee scales well and Froggen carries, hence Froggen takes the farm. I see nothing wrong.
The specific scenario in question was at a point when Froggen had 6 items, and the only use left for his gold was chugging pots or selling items to replace them.
I don't know the game but it seems highly unlikely that he would just take farm for no reason that his AD could have gotten. I'd imagine the situation called for lanes to be pushed out ASAP and Froggen just happened to be there.
On January 07 2013 18:43 zulu_nation8 wrote: You want champions who scale well to take farm. You also want people who carry to take farm. Lee scales well and Froggen carries, hence Froggen takes the farm. I see nothing wrong.
The specific scenario in question was at a point when Froggen had 6 items, and the only use left for his gold was chugging pots or selling items to replace them.
I don't know the game but it seems highly unlikely that he would just take farm for no reason that his AD could have gotten. I'd imagine the situation called for lanes to be pushed out ASAP and Froggen just happened to be there.
On January 07 2013 13:24 sylverfyre wrote: I'm really surprised that the reaction to this is so negative. There are definitely junglers that benefit enough from extra farm that taxing lanes is viable (Yi is used as the OP's example, with a maokai example top who could go roaming/ganking while leaving Yi to farm his lane. Or Yi could gank the lane (relying on Lane CC from maokai and his own damage) and then if the gank is successful, take a heavy gank tax to represent the non-standard farm priority.
I actually consider "gank tax" to be the poorest way to allocate farm to a farm-dependent jungler, because it's not an efficient use of resources. You're not receiving any farm that someone else wouldn't have gotten, and you are giving up camp time to take that farm. The efficiency is improved if you're helping a laner push out a lane before they back because it means they get back to lane sooner, but a heavy gank tax on principle is inefficient.
The most efficient way for a farm-dependent jungler to get farm is to farm a gank-oriented laner's lane while they're ganking, because in that scenario you're taking farm that nobody else would be getting.
On January 07 2013 13:24 sylverfyre wrote: Especially when you have random creepwaves that, as a team, you are in no hurry to clear out - for example, the team wants to wait for their own creeps before pushing a tower together, but their own creeps are a ways back and you'd have to wait ~10 seconds for them. The enemy wave does not necessarily need to be wiped out before your own gets there. Most of the time, I see the entire team NUKE THE FUCK out of the wave (even in pro games) when you COULD donate that wave to the ADC (or whoever you have prioritized for your #1 farm position)
You're oversimplifying this because it's a large tradeoff between efficiency and appropriateness. It's more "appropriate" for the 1st position carry to get the farm, but it also represents a drop in efficiency for a champ to wait there and freeze the wave for the carry to get there. It's not always the case that appropriateness wins.
As an example, if you really took farm priority to the extreme, you could have nobody but your AD be the one to farm pushed waves. Anyone who's near one just tanks the wave in front of the tower and waits for the AD to come farm it. But that's not an efficient use of time.
You have to balance farm priority vs. everyone's efficiency. Typically variation in farm priority is not so high in LoL as to warrant a champ wasting their time waiting for the AD to get there and farm it unless they're already reasonable close. Not even the support.
On January 07 2013 18:43 zulu_nation8 wrote: You want champions who scale well to take farm. You also want people who carry to take farm. Lee scales well and Froggen carries, hence Froggen takes the farm. I see nothing wrong.
The specific scenario in question was at a point when Froggen had 6 items, and the only use left for his gold was chugging pots or selling items to replace them.
I don't know the game but it seems highly unlikely that he would just take farm for no reason that his AD could have gotten. I'd imagine the situation called for lanes to be pushed out ASAP and Froggen just happened to be there.
On January 07 2013 18:43 zulu_nation8 wrote: You want champions who scale well to take farm. You also want people who carry to take farm. Lee scales well and Froggen carries, hence Froggen takes the farm. I see nothing wrong.
The specific scenario in question was at a point when Froggen had 6 items, and the only use left for his gold was chugging pots or selling items to replace them.
I don't know the game but it seems highly unlikely that he would just take farm for no reason that his AD could have gotten. I'd imagine the situation called for lanes to be pushed out ASAP and Froggen just happened to be there.
not that was pretty much what was happening
link to vod
I cant remember the team, it was worlds i think, CLGEU vs .. that team with Caomei.. or whatever. i know they were top side, Chinese team was bottom. I know people were crying about it in the report thread, about how yellowpete needed the farm but froggen kept taking all of it
On January 07 2013 18:43 zulu_nation8 wrote: You want champions who scale well to take farm. You also want people who carry to take farm. Lee scales well and Froggen carries, hence Froggen takes the farm. I see nothing wrong.
The specific scenario in question was at a point when Froggen had 6 items, and the only use left for his gold was chugging pots or selling items to replace them.
I don't know the game but it seems highly unlikely that he would just take farm for no reason that his AD could have gotten. I'd imagine the situation called for lanes to be pushed out ASAP and Froggen just happened to be there.
On January 07 2013 18:43 zulu_nation8 wrote: You want champions who scale well to take farm. You also want people who carry to take farm. Lee scales well and Froggen carries, hence Froggen takes the farm. I see nothing wrong.
The specific scenario in question was at a point when Froggen had 6 items, and the only use left for his gold was chugging pots or selling items to replace them.
I don't know the game but it seems highly unlikely that he would just take farm for no reason that his AD could have gotten. I'd imagine the situation called for lanes to be pushed out ASAP and Froggen just happened to be there.
On January 07 2013 18:43 zulu_nation8 wrote: You want champions who scale well to take farm. You also want people who carry to take farm. Lee scales well and Froggen carries, hence Froggen takes the farm. I see nothing wrong.
The specific scenario in question was at a point when Froggen had 6 items, and the only use left for his gold was chugging pots or selling items to replace them.
I don't know the game but it seems highly unlikely that he would just take farm for no reason that his AD could have gotten. I'd imagine the situation called for lanes to be pushed out ASAP and Froggen just happened to be there.
On January 07 2013 18:43 zulu_nation8 wrote: You want champions who scale well to take farm. You also want people who carry to take farm. Lee scales well and Froggen carries, hence Froggen takes the farm. I see nothing wrong.
The specific scenario in question was at a point when Froggen had 6 items, and the only use left for his gold was chugging pots or selling items to replace them.
I don't know the game but it seems highly unlikely that he would just take farm for no reason that his AD could have gotten. I'd imagine the situation called for lanes to be pushed out ASAP and Froggen just happened to be there.
Chugging creeps is obviously hard wired into him, and part of what makes him such a beastly player, but there's no reason to be taking farm when he's at full items and there are teammates that aren't.
On January 07 2013 18:43 zulu_nation8 wrote: You want champions who scale well to take farm. You also want people who carry to take farm. Lee scales well and Froggen carries, hence Froggen takes the farm. I see nothing wrong.
The specific scenario in question was at a point when Froggen had 6 items, and the only use left for his gold was chugging pots or selling items to replace them.
I don't know the game but it seems highly unlikely that he would just take farm for no reason that his AD could have gotten. I'd imagine the situation called for lanes to be pushed out ASAP and Froggen just happened to be there.
Chugging creeps is obviously hard wired into him, and part of what makes him such a beastly player, but there's no reason to be taking farm when he's at full items and there are teammates that aren't.
On January 07 2013 18:43 zulu_nation8 wrote: You want champions who scale well to take farm. You also want people who carry to take farm. Lee scales well and Froggen carries, hence Froggen takes the farm. I see nothing wrong.
The specific scenario in question was at a point when Froggen had 6 items, and the only use left for his gold was chugging pots or selling items to replace them.
I don't know the game but it seems highly unlikely that he would just take farm for no reason that his AD could have gotten. I'd imagine the situation called for lanes to be pushed out ASAP and Froggen just happened to be there.
Chugging creeps is obviously hard wired into him, and part of what makes him such a beastly player, but there's no reason to be taking farm when he's at full items and there are teammates that aren't.
pushing asap?
Maybe. I'll be honest, I haven't rewatched the vod, I just remember thinking it would be better if someone else cleared the wave as he was fully farmed.
I'd say it's fine in LoL, Junglers and especially supports rarely go and clear lanes if any of the other three positions are in range to do it. I'd say the only issue is that ADC, APC and Top players aren't clear on the priority... sometimes as ADC I take down a tower and run around and happen to show up in top lane while top laner isn't there. No surprise if the top laner gets mad that he lost a whole wave to the ADC, even though it makes sense in my opinion at least that ADC should have higher priority than Top for most team compositions. In Dota 2, at least in a bit more competitive situations, no one would ever deny the hard carry any farm he wants, no matter which lane and situation, you will always want to give the hard carry everything.
In Dota 2 there are so many more ways to play the game. Trilane, 2 mid, no jungler, with jungler, etc. LoL metagame is basically locked in the tanky top/bursty caster mid/jungler/support + ad, and this isn't changing any time soon.
On January 07 2013 23:21 zulu_nation8 wrote: what the fuck are you guys talking about, why would he give up farm ever if he didnt have 6 items?
Because Lee Sin doesn't get as ridiculous on 6 items as Kog does? It's not like we're talking about giving up farm to turrets, we're talking about giving your farm to someone else on the team who the team has decided is a higher farm priority
I guess one difference between a dota hard carry and a lol AD carry is that the LoL ADC can't really get SO farmed that he can 1v5 unless his team is so far ahead it's irrecoverable (because he can still get bursted down generally)
lee sin scales better than kog with bonus AD, froggen carries a lot harder than yellowpete, thus froggen gets the farm. Not sure what this communist bullshit comes from, you give farm to people who are stronger, not weaker.
On January 07 2013 23:53 Abenson wrote: In Dota 2 there are so many more ways to play the game. Trilane, 2 mid, no jungler, with jungler, etc. LoL metagame is basically locked in the tanky top/bursty caster mid/jungler/support + ad, and this isn't changing any time soon.
On January 08 2013 00:01 zulu_nation8 wrote: lee sin scales better than kog with bonus AD, froggen carries a lot harder than yellowpete, thus froggen gets the farm. Not sure what this communist bullshit comes from, you give farm to people who are stronger, not weaker.
It's not communist bullshit. Obviously we just have different opinions of who on CLG.EU should have the position 1. Ultimately the point of this discussion is about understanding farm priority further, not about always putting your AD carry at farm position 1.
While I disagree that Lee scales better with gold than Kog - that's not the point.
Dota is not exclusively based on a 1-5 position. This is not some sort of meta positioning the game enforces. The 1-5 positioning is based on ONE type of strategy in dota regarding 4 protect 1, with farming priority based on carry being #1 and the #5 getting nothing. It has nothing to do with how positions and picks are determined, and what strategies are actually used in the game other than #1 = carry.
On January 08 2013 00:01 zulu_nation8 wrote: lee sin scales better than kog with bonus AD, froggen carries a lot harder than yellowpete, thus froggen gets the farm. Not sure what this communist bullshit comes from, you give farm to people who are stronger, not weaker.
It's not communist bullshit. Obviously we just have different opinions of who on CLG.EU should have the position 1. Ultimately the point of this discussion is about understanding farm priority further, not about always putting your AD carry at farm position 1.
While I disagree that Lee scales better with gold than Kog - that's not the point.
Thats not an opinion, that is mathematical, all of the scaling is up to look up, and kog with his long rage seige abilities, quick aspd, and stronger scaling than lee would rather have his 6 items than lee have 6 items. Idk where he came up with communist bullshit though, confused about that.
1. It takes a LOT more farm to get maxed out in Dota than it does in LoL. 2. Relatively few games get to the point where the carry has maxed items plus rebuy so your carry is almost always in need of farm. 3. A fully farmed carry in Dota has a much bigger impact on the game than a fully farmed LoL carry. 4. Magic damage, support and defensive all fall off in the late game in Dota much more than in LoL. Meaning at late game it is more important for your support to have crowd control items (which arguably get stronger as the game goes on) than it is for your magic damage nuker to have more mana or a harder hitting ultimate in Dota.
All of these points add up to the farm priority system having a bigger impact on a game of Dota than a game of LoL. And even then, the farm priority isn't the be all and end all of how to play a game of Dota. It is too simple of a model to describe which hero gets that creep kill resulting in it being rather inaccurate. Commentators who explain the model generally only do so for the purpose of people who are brand new to Dota understanding which heroes scale better with items.
On January 08 2013 00:01 zulu_nation8 wrote: lee sin scales better than kog with bonus AD, froggen carries a lot harder than yellowpete, thus froggen gets the farm. Not sure what this communist bullshit comes from, you give farm to people who are stronger, not weaker.
It's not communist bullshit. Obviously we just have different opinions of who on CLG.EU should have the position 1. Ultimately the point of this discussion is about understanding farm priority further, not about always putting your AD carry at farm position 1.
While I disagree that Lee scales better with gold than Kog - that's not the point.
Thats not an opinion, that is mathematical, all of the scaling is up to look up, and kog with his long rage seige abilities, quick aspd, and stronger scaling than lee would rather have his 6 items than lee have 6 items. Idk where he came up with communist bullshit though, confused about that.
in what way does he have stronger scaling than lee? Look up the math and show me.
By building stats that multiply 5 sources of damage. (AD, AS, Crit, Critdamage, ArPen) and having one of the best autoattack steroids in the game, plus a second modest steroid (passive AS and armor/MR shred on his Q)
youre just listing off his strengths, i can do the same for lee sin, the point is it's not the case that kog always deserves farm over lee. In the game that was linked, lee had more kills than kog all game, kog had more farm than lee all game, kog was maxed out about 5-10min earlier than lee. Again, you always give farm to your strongest carry, unless you have a top nunu or something. Lee has one of the best AD scalings in the game.
On January 06 2013 03:50 NEOtheONE wrote: Except there are several problems:
1) There is no way to enforce this as farm priority will fluctuate depending on team comp. 2) Solo queue is solo queue 3) In pubs everyone will try to instalock a priority 1 champion rather than simply calling top, mid, or ADC, so you just trade one form of stupidity for another. 4) It really isn't that obvious to many people, and with the general selfish mentality people will continue to remain oblivious. 5) What do you do when you have multiple carries? Say Jax top, Anivia or Karthus mid, Ezreal ADC, and Lee or Olaf jungle?
I don't think you understand the concept here, it's not like this really would change anything, you say "3) In pubs everyone will try to instalock a priority 1 champion rather than simply calling top, mid, or ADC, so you just trade one form of stupidity for another." P1 champ is an ADC, ADCs already need more gold then other roles, what OP is suggesting is simply making people more aware of who goes next in the priority line, and how you can improve your chances of winning by getting those with higher priority farmed and fed. It is already standard to help your top priority champ get farmed, in fact there is usually one team member doing just that(support) so why shouldn't it be standard to further prioritize who you should try to help get farmed. Here is the thing, no one is saying you should completely change the meta or abandon your lane, all he is suggesting is that we should all be aware of and assist those champions who preform better given a lot of farm. TLDR, this is not a new idea, it is already taken into account by the better more mindful players, OP is just trying to make people more aware.
On January 07 2013 18:43 zulu_nation8 wrote: You want champions who scale well to take farm. You also want people who carry to take farm. Lee scales well and Froggen carries, hence Froggen takes the farm. I see nothing wrong.
The specific scenario in question was at a point when Froggen had 6 items, and the only use left for his gold was chugging pots or selling items to replace them.
I don't know the game but it seems highly unlikely that he would just take farm for no reason that his AD could have gotten. I'd imagine the situation called for lanes to be pushed out ASAP and Froggen just happened to be there.
Chugging creeps is obviously hard wired into him, and part of what makes him such a beastly player, but there's no reason to be taking farm when he's at full items and there are teammates that aren't.
pushing asap?
Maybe. I'll be honest, I haven't rewatched the vod, I just remember thinking it would be better if someone else cleared the wave as he was fully farmed.
On January 08 2013 12:44 zulu_nation8 wrote: youre just listing off his strengths, i can do the same for lee sin, the point is it's not the case that kog always deserves farm over lee. In the game that was linked, lee had more kills than kog all game, kog had more farm than lee all game, kog was maxed out about 5-10min earlier than lee. Again, you always give farm to your strongest carry, unless you have a top nunu or something. Lee has one of the best AD scalings in the game.
I used to think the same that bruisers scaled as well as AD's, but then I played an Aram where my team was winning all game. I was AD sivir. My opposing team had an AD sivir. My ally's fought hard for farm but the sivir on the enemy team got all the farm on her team. She went on to become unstoppable. The rest of her team didn't need damage because with multiplicative scaling, she gained more damage than the rest of my team gained from items combined. In my experience a farmed AD can win more games than a farmed bruiser but it obviously depends on skill.
I'am not 100% sure everyone got how the type system works in DotA. The statement "1-5 is about farm priority" is actually incorrect or not accurate. It is more about farm-behaviour which heavily influences the playstile of a position as well.
The carries generally just farm, and only opportunistically take kills, which are mostly setup by couterganks (by the lower positions) to protect the first position player. This goes from mid through the early game. This is how most ad carries in LoL play and get treated. A kog/vayne rather yes. An ashe or cait is expected to be more proactive and useful earlyer for setting up ganks or sieging turrets earlyer in the game. So they don't play out equally and are not treated equally as dota carries all the time.
Then the 2-3 are semi carries, gankers and pushers. Those have a balanced approach between actively applying pressure and farming. They dont get the support of 1-3 other players constantly so they can farm. When they get support then its about ganking/pushing/sieging etc. The heroes they play often have "core builds" which lacks a real equivalent in LoL actually, because the item design is very different. If you finish a core build with one of the 2-3 position heroes then you consider not to farm as much, while a 1st position player allways farms when he can and their core is more like the core in LoL builds where you just determine a set of mostly useful items you almost allways get during the early stages. And not a "I need these 3 items to do what I'am supposed to" kind of core.
The lower 4-5 positions are about babysitting, roaming, ganking. Kind of like jungle and supports in LoL. They also have core builds like the 2-3 positions but they tend to be much more limited. They also take the most wards, courier etc.
Now what this means is that lower position players don't just have lower farm priority. They just often do not have the time to farm, beccause they do alot of other things, so they pick heroes that complement that behaviour (high base utility/damage and low scaling). And what this also means is that sometimes a lower position player gets to farm his core item(s) because he needs that basic utility at some point, while a higher position player allready has his core and starts to be more active/teamoriented.
An equivalent in lol would be: hey let our support/jungle finish his shureila so we can disengage this wukong/kennen better next time.