PSA: How to Support a Gank - Page 2
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
In mid, there is very high burst. Also, generally, a mid lane match up is going to have a lot of harassment or be very passive. If one person has been harassing a lot, and continues to do so, the other player is likely to back off because he's taken a lot of punishment already, so the engagement won't result in any type of successful gank. If the lane has been passive, and all of a sudden one player is aggressive, it's a red flag for the other player to back off. Furthermore, say I'm pushed to my tower and have been losing my lane. If I try to initiate a fight, there's a high chance I'll die before my jungler even reaches my enemy. This is extremely frustrating, and happens a lot when T_D jungles for me, because he has much the same mind set as you do. In mid, the jungler has to initiate (if I'm not playing someone with a very reliable hard cc). Mages are slow, and I'd rather just burn a flash mid and make my opponent more weary than trying to go balls out and risk my own death. | ||
Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On April 06 2012 22:31 jcarlsoniv wrote: One glaring issue with this mindset is when you're ganking mid lane. In mid, there is very high burst. Also, generally, a mid lane match up is going to have a lot of harassment or be very passive. If one person has been harassing a lot, and continues to do so, the other player is likely to back off because he's taken a lot of punishment already, so the engagement won't result in any type of successful gank. If the lane has been passive, and all of a sudden one player is aggressive, it's a red flag for the other player to back off. Furthermore, say I'm pushed to my tower and have been losing my lane. If I try to initiate a fight, there's a high chance I'll die before my jungler even reaches my enemy. This is extremely frustrating, and happens a lot when T_D jungles for me, because he has much the same mind set as you do. In mid, the jungler has to initiate (if I'm not playing someone with a very reliable hard cc). Mages are slow, and I'd rather just burn a flash mid and make my opponent more weary than trying to go balls out and risk my own death. Right, mid can be completely different alot of the time. Many times if your try to start a fight mid you will die instantly or, more importantly be on full CD with nothing to hold them in place while the jungler comes in. So jungle usually does make first move, or move simultaneously with the laner on mid lane. For mid it is often a much more subtle bait where I often try to walk just a bit too far out to one side of the lane and "get myself caught" in a position where they come towards the brush to try and hit me. | ||
sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On April 06 2012 19:35 Apex wrote: I guess I've been screwing up in this aspect then because I've always been afraid that it might be too obvious that the jungler is waiting to gank for me when I suddenly run up there to try to trade/initiate with them. Guess that mentality was wrong (or at least, most of the times not good). Thanks for the info. Will put that into good use. The better players you play with, the more subtle your retard move can be and will need to be. In solo que if i'm dominating an lane and they suddenly make a move towards me, as long as i'm not OBSCENELY ahead I often will just think they are a terrible player and really think they can fight, because I see players do this sort of dumb shit all the time with no jungler and die. Moves like that are common and thats why you see people going 0-6 in lane in soloque. If I am playing better people I wont just jump on them, as that would be suspicious if they know I dont suck. But if they are better at the game they are also much better at seeing a much more subtle bait. For example instead of just jumping on them I can just go out a tiny bit too far to nab a creep, which a good player will instantly see as an opportunity to engage without thinking the mistake is so obvious that there must be rammus on the way in. In mid lane I can blow a short CD on the creep wave, which can cause a good mid to move aggressively towards me. If you tried this on a bad player they wont even see the momentary weakness and the bait will be noneffective, but on the flipside they wont infer the jungler's presence on some really brash attack either. Basically as long as you wont die immediately, you just try to use the most subtle bait you can that will create an engage from them. | ||
Schwopzi
Netherlands954 Posts
On April 07 2012 00:19 sob3k wrote: Right, mid can be completely different alot of the time. Many times if your try to start a fight mid you will die instantly or, more importantly be on full CD with nothing to hold them in place while the jungler comes in. So jungle usually does make first move, or move simultaneously with the laner on mid lane. For mid it is often a much more subtle bait where I often try to walk just a bit too far out to one side of the lane and "get myself caught" in a position where they come towards the brush to try and hit me. It feels like you have to play your opponent into positioning where you want him to midlane, depending on his playstyle. Some champs/players like to stay away from you, so in order to position him correctly you position yourself away from your jungler baiting the opposing mid player towards your jungler. Against champs/players that are agressive you go to your junglers side and let the other mid push you back, drawing him into jungler range. | ||
StUfF
Australia1437 Posts
On April 07 2012 00:28 sob3k wrote: The better players you play with, the more subtle your retard move can be and will need to be. In solo que if i'm dominating an lane and they suddenly make a move towards me, as long as i'm not OBSCENELY ahead I often will just think they are a terrible player and really think they can fight, because I see players do this sort of dumb shit all the time with no jungler and die. Moves like that are common and thats why you see people going 0-6 in lane in soloque. If I am playing better people I wont just jump on them, as that would be suspicious if they know I dont suck. But if they are better at the game they are also much better at seeing a much more subtle bait. For example instead of just jumping on them I can just go out a tiny bit too far to nab a creep, which a good player will instantly see as an opportunity to engage without thinking the mistake is so obvious that there must be rammus on the way in. In mid lane I can blow a short CD on the creep wave, which can cause a good mid to move aggressively towards me. If you tried this on a bad player they wont even see the momentary weakness and the bait will be noneffective, but on the flipside they wont infer the jungler's presence on some really brash attack either. Basically as long as you wont die immediately, you just try to use the most subtle bait you can that will create an engage from them. Usually when I play support bot lane I will be poking/aggressive from the start. Even if the trades are uneven if you can deny some cs for the other side and generally it's good, so when jungler does gank it's normal maybe they think you overextend a little - if it's a kill lane they are looking for you to step out of line for a second so they can jump on you. Just give them that oppurtunity! Bot land is always the hardest to gank - it's warded the most, if you go in the wrong time you are liable to die 2v1, heal summoners, often the team doesn't focus fire a single target, some support have 0 damage output, the lane matchup heavily depends on items and there two heroes to cc/disable you. If you really want to gank bot you should get used to brush ganking, it's so powerful, even if you have to wait another 30 seconds or so, having them facecheck into you makes killing them so much easier. | ||
billy5000
United States865 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On April 07 2012 01:27 billy5000 wrote: i have one more thing to add: the goal of ganking isn't necessarily to get a kill. most junglers who don't usually play top don't realize this, but after a gank which didn't result a kill AND if the lane's pushing to your side, the jungler can just stay for a few sec and zone the opponent (while not taking your solo top's exp), making him lose about a wave's worth of cs. i can't stress enough how it's not a waste of time for the jungler to stay there as top can snowball harder than any other lane T_D's gonna want to have a word with you. | ||
Tribute
United States146 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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Tribute
United States146 Posts
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
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clickrush
Switzerland3257 Posts
so many possible scenarios. there isnt really a receipt for mindgames. and what you are proposing is a mindgame receipt. there are alot of players who will not trade with you if you are overly aggressive from their perspective. one of the reasons many players dont like bottom lane is because it's so hard to do the right stuff. some people are just defensive after they get hurt a bit and will never come back in lane through plays. some are extremely confident and do very close engagements after their opponent missed a skillshot for example just so they can come back. as a jungler or duo laner you either have to do super safe ganks +massive farming or you are mind reader and check out the dynamic of every lane at once, but you are never gonna be successful with mindgame receipts. also you should never think of what other players should do better. it never helps you. in a situation where the others would not trade, you probably dont want to commit but just show yourself and deal a bit of damage maybe or you can walk into the lane, push it and grant your teammates a good timing to recall. another possiblity would be counterjungling or counterganking because in this situation you know that the bottom lane is not going to get ganked (tower proximity). | ||
DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
Just recently I had some issues as Trundle and missed 2 easy ganks on a Katarina mid because the Fiddle wouldn't fear her. I asked him to initiate with fear and he just B'd to tower and last hit minions and kept pinging her. I sighed and initiated and he hits a few CS, drains her, and she gets away easy and I almost die from 2 tower hits. | ||
Sandster
United States4054 Posts
That being said - and people have touched on this already - who engages depends on the lane position, champs, and health/cds. But if possible the laner should strive to make the other guy try to step up and make the gank easier before it happens. | ||
-Valor-
United States283 Posts
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
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Solaris.playgu
Sweden480 Posts
What I have found is that waiting around in the brush is rarely worth it. Like, at all. Except for some extreme cases (over 9000 creeps under your turret or sumthin). If you have to wait in the brush it is generally because your timing was bad. What I tend to do is look at the lanes well ahead of time, and if I notice one lane is overextended or will get overextended soon I estimate the timing when it will be effective to gank it, and then decide upon my path there based on that estimation (might take a creep camp on the way, might gank another lane first then immediately go to the lane, might take a slight detour and ward in the process, etc...) When approaching I watch the movement of the enemy hero, because it is often very obvious whether he sees my approach or not. If he doesn't react I ping him a couple of seconds in advance and then just run straight in. This is often enough time for the laner to position himself or initiate a fight, depending on what he judges appropriate. Though, to chime in on the rage, IT'S NEVER THE JUNGLERS FAULT YOU LOSE YOUR LANE. IT'S BECAUSE YOU OVEREXTEND LIKE A RETARD YOU GET GANKED, AND BECAUSE YOUR ENEMY IS CAREFUL GANKING HIM WOULD BE A WASTE OF TIME. MAN UP, PLAY SMART AND DON'T BLAME THE JUNGLER WHEN YOU SUCK BALLS AND GET STOMPED! | ||
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