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Source: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/02/227-pbe-update.html
[New] Enchantment : Cinderhulk Recipe: [Bami's Cinder + Jungle Item + 350g] Total Cost: 2200g (Two of them currently say 2000 - intended cost is 2200 though.) +350 Health +25% Bonus Health UNIQUE Passive - Immolate: While in combat, deals 15 (+1 per champion level) magic damage a second to nearby enemies. This increases up to 100% based on time in combat. . Look like Riot is responding to some of the recent calls for a return to the Quillcoat / Spirit of the Ancient Golem style of jungle tank item, with +% max health.
I'm sad to lose the tenacity, but the Immolate aura will be nice and should improve clear speeds. Someone like Nunu will love it, because he's pretty fast at clearing single monsters with Consume, and now the little ones will die most of the way while he's nomming the big ones down.
Overall, I think it should be an improvement.
Thoughts?
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time for some mundo jungle action.
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Bearded Elder29876 Posts
Sucks that it doesn't stack with Sunfire.
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Not only do I like the change. I like almost all the PBE changes they're making.
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United States37500 Posts
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I wonder if it will be enough to warrant picking junglers like Nautilus over J4 or Vi.
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The Nautilus changes on the pbe seem sketchy, but if they aren't that bad this item appears to have a lot of potential for him
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I think naut is already a strong jungler, he'd definitely be top tier with a slight increase in clear speed.
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Hmm, I wonder if we'll see more Olaf in the jungle from Reignover (Fnatic) and others, since they usually built him as a tank, and he doesn't need the tenacity.
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I don't especially like it. Tank junglers are currently suffering a lot in early jungle clears, and this doesn't kick in until you've accumulated ~2000g by which point the jungle isn't kicking your butt anymore. The fact that its damage doesn't stack with Sunfire is just very puzzling. I don't think this item will be of much help at all for tank junglers.
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essentially just a way to get sunfire while still upgrading your jungle item. Gets you your sunfire damage about 1250 gold earlier which is quite significant for anyone who was skipping it.
It could make a big difference, but it's hard to tell.
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Positives: Allows tank junglers to hit a 1 item timing with damage that isn't sunfire Bami's Cinder help intermediate clears Bonus health multiplier does wonders to help with lower gold income
Issues: Lack of CDR Lack of Tenacity(this can be an issue for champions like Elise) Doesn't help early clears since Bami's Cinder costs 1k.
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cdr and tenacity are optional for tanks, especially cdr, they are nice but staying alive is more important especially tenacity, its not like they need to consistently auto like irelia and shit
still helps early clears more than juggernaught most tanks *rammus malphite, sejuani can get away with it i guess) had to skip juggernaught to get sunfire instead
don't know how your last point is an "issue" its clearly an unrelated issue if its an isssue at all, its not the concern of a 2k gold item to deal with early clears i think its silly trying to engineer everything just to get tanks viable in the jungle. Who says the jungle should be where tanks are? The whole point of jungle is that you need to have a lot of damage and sustain to kill tough monsters in a way that ranged champs cant but tanks arent that heavy in either of those and ritos shoving %hp damage everywhere to try to damage control
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There's nothing that says there have to be jungle tanks, but diversity makes for more interesting games and that's good both for casual and professional play.
It's important to consider Cinderhulk in light of other changes on the PBE, such as:
Crimson Raptor Damage reduced to 45 from 55 Greater Murk Wolf Gold increased to 53 from 42 Gromp Damage reduced to 83 from 90 Gift of the Toadstool's damage now scales based on the bonus health (~10%) Murk Wolf Gold increased to 16 from 12 Raptor Damage reduced to 16 from 20
All junglers are going to be taking less damage. That's going to make a big different not just for tanks but for diversity in general.
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we dont see any real diversity in bot lane but everyones fine with that
i dont know why you think nerfing jungle monsters will increase diversity, it'll just change the power curve away from sustain toward damage a bit more
unless you have the whole thing of clearing jungle faster than they can respawn where we've come full circle where theres a period in the game where there's nothing to do but gank which is what riot was trying to move away from in the first place
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On March 03 2015 22:57 Slayer91 wrote: we dont see any real diversity in bot lane but everyones fine with that
i dont know why you think nerfing jungle monsters will increase diversity, it'll just change the power curve away from sustain toward damage a bit more That's not true. There are burst vs sustained damage vs midgame spike vs late game carry ADs, and supports come in engage vs disengage vs sustain vs CC tank... There's a ton of variety.
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you can say the same thing about all the junglers as well oh look you have engage you have split pushers you have early game ganks you have late game powerhouses you have teamfighters you have utility jungles like nunu loads of diversity
fact is people dont like the fact that its all very similar champs in jungle when all the ads are basically the same and most of the supports fit into either ranged peel or melee engage or thresh who does both
people just play graves/sivir/kalista or whatever and then thresh/morgana/annie/leona/janna or something support just like people play vi/j4/lee sin/reksai/rengar/panth in jungle
most mid lane champs are really similar too except you have assassins and then poke mages top lane would be similarly diverse (top lane mage or top lane tank/bruiser) if you didnt have champs like gnar and lissandra which are just stupid and kill the reason to pick anything else
people pick mostly a small subset of champions, id say liek 50% of champs see very little play, and theres a good reason its basically champs with good escapes in lanes are just as good in most departments as champs without escapes like if you play talon mid vs zed mid zed can easily escape a gank from a strong jungler where talon cant especailly post 6 if you have a pink. Also zed can farm from max range safely while keeping his escape up so even though he's a melee assassin he has more safety than a lot of ap champions.
similarly junglers with strong ganks like reksai jarvan and vi and rengar and panth don't really sacrifice anything from other junglers who have weaker ganks. I mean you can argue they're weaker in teamfights but that's situational. A rengar might seem weak in some cases but if he one shots an adc the teamfights pretty much over while a tank has a more predictable line of attack.
the idea of cinderhulk is to let tanks don't sacrifice their farm as much going in the jungle. Most melee champions suck in lane so you can only justify them in the jungle but they often lack damage for clearing so riots trying to make it easier for them to keep up with junglers who don't sacrifice anything.
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On March 03 2015 22:57 Slayer91 wrote: we dont see any real diversity in bot lane but everyones fine with that
i dont know why you think nerfing jungle monsters will increase diversity, it'll just change the power curve away from sustain toward damage a bit more
unless you have the whole thing of clearing jungle faster than they can respawn where we've come full circle where theres a period in the game where there's nothing to do but gank which is what riot was trying to move away from in the first place
I'm not fine with it! Maybe there's not a huge outcry but I think it'd be cool if role distributions were less rigid. I like that we've been seeing double AD other interesting team comps in the LCS recently and I want more of that sort of diversity and the interesting jungle/lane choices that go with it.
I don't know why you don't think reducing jungle damage a bit will increase diversity. Right now most junglers go back before they even gank due to low health. There's a lot of balance space where reducing damage doesn't change that for the current junglers while enabling new junglers function. There will always be top jungle/lane picks, but that doesn't mean other options should be practically impossible.
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how is changing the junglers that are the best increasing diversity increasing diversity means there are lots of junglers that can situationally be the best depending on team comps and strategy and such problem is some champs are just head and shoulders ahead in so many categories that having an interesting teamfight utility isnt that useful
there are lots of jungles that are playable now and changing the damage will shift that so that say warwick becomes weaker because his ability to stay full health isnt as strong and someone like jarvan who lacks sustain can gank more easily after clearing
is it just people want to be able to play shit junglers like diana without feeding or what
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Like I said there will always be top junglers, but how many there are isn't a set number and neither is the number of viable alternatives. Right now the number of top picks is small, and the gap between then and the alternatives is too big.
Yeah, there are a lot of junglers who are playable, but that's different from viable. It's kind of meh when it's Jarvan/Vi/Nidalee/Rek'sai on top, Lee Sin/Rengar as secondary picks, and then anything else is basically YOLO. I've been jungling Akali since before Season 1 and honestly a lot of if not most once-competitive junglers feel like Jungle Akali in terms of viability. It's a joke.
Shrinking the gap between the top picks and alternatives is good. Allowing for more competitive jungle picks is good.
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