Dota's 1-5 system for LoL - Page 2
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
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onlywonderboy
United States23745 Posts
On January 07 2013 01:25 Shikyo wrote: This thread is sort of funny because almost every game will have support jungler top mid AD and it'll generally be 5 4 3 2 1, with some variance with top 3. LoL has much much better and more frequent 1-5 system in pubs than DotA does. This really only breaks down when someone tries to play like Zilean/Karma mid in a pub game and overfarms him/her. But this is a problem with the player not adapting to the champ they picked, not the way that farm is usually distributed. | ||
obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
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Amarok
Australia2003 Posts
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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Tektos
Australia1321 Posts
If putting a position 3 in mid means you're completely shutting down the enemy team's position 2 farm... You're probably going to do better than putting your position 2 in mid and letting their position 2 also get amazing farm. It works this way in Dota 2, it isn't completely about farm priorities, it is also about winning your lane. This is why you see tri-lanes a lot, it ensures you win your lane and your top farm priority gets all the CS. This is mitigated by the enemy using a versatile off-laner (such as darkseer or beastmaster) who can still manage to get farm against a tri-lane without risking feeding kills to the enemy strong lane. As a result this means your other two lanes are in a position to win/draw their lanes while you're sacrificing as little as possible to a guaranteed losing lane. It is also why you don't always have a jungler in Dota2, because if you have more people in lane you have a higher chance of winning that lane and denying your enemy's farm. This comes at the cost of your own team's farm. | ||
sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
Teams like CLG EU could benefit from understanding this farm priority too - their defensive playstyle COULD be used to give Yellowpete space to farm according to a #1 position rather than having froggen at the #1 position and farming all 3 lanes. Especially when you have random creepwaves that, as a team, you are in no hurry to clear out - for example, the team wants to wait for their own creeps before pushing a tower together, but their own creeps are a ways back and you'd have to wait ~10 seconds for them. The enemy wave does not necessarily need to be wiped out before your own gets there. Most of the time, I see the entire team NUKE THE FUCK out of the wave (even in pro games) when you COULD donate that wave to the ADC (or whoever you have prioritized for your #1 farm position) Designating farm priority is a concept many league players - even at the pro level - don't seem to have. I've sometimes seen korean teams sometimes showcase their understanding of it, but not consistently. Even the "standard" farm priority of ADC > Solo laners > Jungler > Support can carry a greater understanding that there is a farm priority. (stop taking all of pete's waves, froggen) And really, I don't understand why everyone is nitpicking over the Soraka example. Let's say we have the lane phase mostly over. Soraka has Abyssal, Jax has Triforce. Who's going to bring more from a third big item? Jax. Not a contest. Now, this isn't to say that Soraka should take 0 CS from now on - just that if there's opportunities to choose easily, gold would be funneled towards Jax over Soraka. In this case, Jax is #2 (or perhaps even #1 over the ADC maybe, but probably #2?) and Soraka is #3. But other AP vs Top laners, you'd clearly put the AP carry at #2 and the top laner at #3. | ||
arb
Noobville17915 Posts
He's got one of the worst solo queue mentalities ive ever seen for a progamer. Whats that yellow pete needs farm? Already 500 cs 6 item LEE SIN? better make yellow pete clean up 6 minion waves while i take all the big ones, even though i have no need for anymore farm. | ||
Amarok
Australia2003 Posts
Definitely wouldn't work for solo queue. Can you imagine the amount of Froggenesque farm hogs you'd get. "Doesn't matter that I picked Nami, I called #1 noobz!!!!1 Stop taking my cs!!!" | ||
zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
ADs should get the priority, but only when they're in a position to carry. In 5s, some junglers benefit more from farm than laners. Otherwise the priority should be obvious. In solo queue it's free for all. The most important rule is just that you want people who scale with gold to take farm. What your champion does in team fights doesn't matter. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 07 2013 18:43 zulu_nation8 wrote: You want champions who scale well to take farm. You also want people who carry to take farm. Lee scales well and Froggen carries, hence Froggen takes the farm. I see nothing wrong. The specific scenario in question was at a point when Froggen had 6 items, and the only use left for his gold was chugging pots or selling items to replace them. | ||
CMonster
2 Posts
What I really like about this system, and will start talking about with my group of friends that i play with, is that the rankings can shift throughout a game. For example, a lot of tops and mids have a core set of items, that once they have, are at their peak of efficiency that can be acquired through items. [To be clear, all champs are their strongest at lvl 18 with 6 items but not all champs are equal at lvl 18 with 6 items so it would be smart to identify how strong you are compared to the enemy through out the game with certain sets of items and to find when you, or team, is stronger than the enemy ] So once they get this set of items they can stop focusing on getting farm and let the natural gold they get through natural gold gain, towers, and dragons will carry them through the rest of the game. Thus allowing champs lower on the list to get more farm or champs that struggles in laning to get back into the game. Obviously the system need a bit of refinement but I do like the mentality prioritizing gold needs for champs and adjusting early and mid game goals and lanes to meet the needs of champs selected. This is far off from solo queue play but I always love ideas that help refine LoL play. Thx OP for bringing this up | ||
zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
On January 07 2013 19:06 TheYango wrote: The specific scenario in question was at a point when Froggen had 6 items, and the only use left for his gold was chugging pots or selling items to replace them. I don't know the game but it seems highly unlikely that he would just take farm for no reason that his AD could have gotten. I'd imagine the situation called for lanes to be pushed out ASAP and Froggen just happened to be there. | ||
arb
Noobville17915 Posts
On January 07 2013 19:10 zulu_nation8 wrote: I don't know the game but it seems highly unlikely that he would just take farm for no reason that his AD could have gotten. I'd imagine the situation called for lanes to be pushed out ASAP and Froggen just happened to be there. not that was pretty much what was happening | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 07 2013 13:24 sylverfyre wrote: I'm really surprised that the reaction to this is so negative. There are definitely junglers that benefit enough from extra farm that taxing lanes is viable (Yi is used as the OP's example, with a maokai example top who could go roaming/ganking while leaving Yi to farm his lane. Or Yi could gank the lane (relying on Lane CC from maokai and his own damage) and then if the gank is successful, take a heavy gank tax to represent the non-standard farm priority. I actually consider "gank tax" to be the poorest way to allocate farm to a farm-dependent jungler, because it's not an efficient use of resources. You're not receiving any farm that someone else wouldn't have gotten, and you are giving up camp time to take that farm. The efficiency is improved if you're helping a laner push out a lane before they back because it means they get back to lane sooner, but a heavy gank tax on principle is inefficient. The most efficient way for a farm-dependent jungler to get farm is to farm a gank-oriented laner's lane while they're ganking, because in that scenario you're taking farm that nobody else would be getting. On January 07 2013 13:24 sylverfyre wrote: Especially when you have random creepwaves that, as a team, you are in no hurry to clear out - for example, the team wants to wait for their own creeps before pushing a tower together, but their own creeps are a ways back and you'd have to wait ~10 seconds for them. The enemy wave does not necessarily need to be wiped out before your own gets there. Most of the time, I see the entire team NUKE THE FUCK out of the wave (even in pro games) when you COULD donate that wave to the ADC (or whoever you have prioritized for your #1 farm position) You're oversimplifying this because it's a large tradeoff between efficiency and appropriateness. It's more "appropriate" for the 1st position carry to get the farm, but it also represents a drop in efficiency for a champ to wait there and freeze the wave for the carry to get there. It's not always the case that appropriateness wins. As an example, if you really took farm priority to the extreme, you could have nobody but your AD be the one to farm pushed waves. Anyone who's near one just tanks the wave in front of the tower and waits for the AD to come farm it. But that's not an efficient use of time. You have to balance farm priority vs. everyone's efficiency. Typically variation in farm priority is not so high in LoL as to warrant a champ wasting their time waiting for the AD to get there and farm it unless they're already reasonable close. Not even the support. | ||
zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
link to vod | ||
arb
Noobville17915 Posts
I cant remember the team, it was worlds i think, CLGEU vs .. that team with Caomei.. or whatever. i know they were top side, Chinese team was bottom. I know people were crying about it in the report thread, about how yellowpete needed the farm but froggen kept taking all of it | ||
DragoonTT
3398 Posts
CLG.EU vs WE, IPL 5 WB Semis, Game 2 VOD link | ||
zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
kog had 6 items before froggen did.. | ||
arb
Noobville17915 Posts
maybe i was mistaken, ic ould have swore people were crying over it in the thread about it -_- lol | ||
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