1-5 refers to the priority system for farm/experience in dota (position 1 has the highest priority, position 5 has the lowest). Typical 1 position champs are your adc since it is that person's job to "carry" a team through the raw damage output the champion does. Position 2 champions are usually the ap champion, although sometimes the top laner could be prioritized more (ie jax/irelia/darius). Position 4/5 are usually for jungler/support, hopefully, for obvious reasons.
Why should LoL adopt this system? Because too many people are locked into this "lane" ideology, that the way to win the game is to win your lane (win lane, lose game syndrome). Lets take soraka as an example. If someone were to pick soraka and play her in the mid lane (position 2), she is getting a solo lane's worth of farm and exp. but what is her role in a teamfight? unless you have 3k hp with massive armor/mr, you will not have the survivability to stand in the middle of the enemy team spamming ur q to maximize your raw damage. in most situations, even if you are playing soraka mid, you will be most likely staying behind ur "tanks", and ur main task in teamfights is to use ur heals to allies that need them as well as silencing high priority targets (ie cassiopeia/ryze). now lets say the support is a malphite. the malphite will mostly be used for his ult engage. however, there is very little damage associated with the engage, so malphite would have to rely on his teammate (namely soraka in this example) to actually do the damage necessary. Lets review this hypothetical situation. Soraka still needs to be very close to the enemy to do any real damage, and this damage takes a while to get there. malphite provided a great initiation initiation that cannot be easily abused by the mid soraka. in most situations, the gold/exp from the mid lane is better used on malphite instead of soraka since his raw damage from building ap is much higher than soraka's. You could have very well dominated the mid lane as soraka, but you would still lose the teamfight if you cannot get close enough to spam your q at the enemy. Of course, you can argue that the heals make up for the lack of damage. However, you cannot guarantee that the damage will come from your team (missing the adc, team gets caught, team comprises of low damage, support oriented champs). Thus, in this situation, the 2nd position is more or less wasted on a champion who may not do the necessary damage needed in a teamfight.
The example I gave is very extreme. Most of the shuffling in position is between position 2 and 3 (typically the mid and top laners). Lets say you have a gragas mid and jax top. who should be prioritized for gold/exp. purely from the "laning" concept, the mid is the "carry" and the top is the "bruiser". This is implied that the mid champion will do more damage for the team than the top can given the items/levels. Most people would agree that jax needs a lot of end-game items to essentially 1v5 the enemy team. Gragas, however, only really requires a deathcap/void staff/sorc boots to be happy when tossing barrels/ults. The jax would take position 2 in this setup while gragas takes position 3. An example of where position 2 would be given to the mid is when there is a champion like karthus, since there is more guaranteed damage coming out of a farmed karthus. What about the jungler? Well, it depends on what jungler you are playing. If you are amumu, the only thing ur team needs of you is to bandage toss ur way into the enemy team and lock down everyone with ur ult. you can do this with purely levels were it not for ur fragility without hp/mr/armor. Thus, it really does not matter how badly you got shutdown by invades as long as you can make clutch ults happen for your team. Sometimes, you see junglers like master yi (famously atlanta). Team comps that have these kind of junglers require the jungler to take a higher position on the team.
(montecristo analyzing atlanta's jungle yi)
If you look at the team comp, we have kennen top and maokai mid. Kennen went the standard WotA while maokai went straight tank. But of course, someone needs to tank right? If that were the case, why isnt maokai in the jungle and let master yi take a solo lane. after all, it is more gold for yi. This is a prime situation for the 1-5 system. Maokai (position 3), with all the ap he can get, will not outdamage master yi (position 4) when given the same gold. Absolutely cannot. Maokai needs the initial gold to get to a tanky position for himself, after which any more gold invested in tanky items is the cherry on top. This is where the gold focus is given on master yi. In the midgame, maokai essentially goes around with the team trying to gank the enemy. He is now tanky enough to dive into the team, causing havoc, and coming out alive even without his ult. In the meantime, master yi comes in and cleans up teamfights. The gold priority has shifted from maokai to master yi. In other words, anything that master yi could do to get more gold will be more impactful than anything maokai could do to get more gold. In this case, the way to get master yi more gold is to take the global objectives as well as killing enemy champions. This is where master yi takes the 2nd position over kennen and maokai. The more gold master yi gets after the laning phase, the more impact he will have on the teamfights.
But this is all pretty obvious, isn't it? And yet, people do not realize the true impact of this system. Lets draw up a hypothetical situation. Say the team comp in question comprises of an irelia top and a karthus mid. Irelia managed to get a double kill on top early due to a failed gank attempt. She now has a tremendous advantage over top. Karthus, however, has had mediocre farm and is getting pushed around by an aggressive mid. By 15 min, irelia has a full triforce along with a t1 boots. karthus only has a catalyst/sorc boots and is saving up for the blasting wand. What should the team do to solidify this advantage for irelia? Does she stay in lane and continue to bully the underleveled enemy top lane or sacrifice her farm/presence at top lane to help karthus? In most situations, she should rotate mid so that karthus could have an easier time getting the farm he needs (keep in mind that by rotating out of your lane, you are giving space to the enemy top lane to farm up and get levels). This could come from kills/tower pressure/contesting enemy blue/dragon. Because irelia will not get substantially stronger after the triforce, her priority should be helping karthus get farmed up. Even though it seems irelia's impact on teamfights is much greater than karthus, karthus still benefits more than irelia given the same gold. This is because irelia experiences an upward-sloping plateau in terms of teamfight usefulness.
How will the dota 1-5 system help lol players? By reminding them of who the carries are and how to get those people more ahead. A darius should be happy to forfeit some farm or even lane if it means he can help snowball a hypercarry like kogmaw. A katarina should be basically camping for jax to hasten jax's lategame potential. The 1-5 system should help some players elevate their play by focusing on what is important for the team composition and how to best play their role to help the team win.
1) There is no way to enforce this as farm priority will fluctuate depending on team comp. 2) Solo queue is solo queue 3) In pubs everyone will try to instalock a priority 1 champion rather than simply calling top, mid, or ADC, so you just trade one form of stupidity for another. 4) It really isn't that obvious to many people, and with the general selfish mentality people will continue to remain oblivious. 5) What do you do when you have multiple carries? Say Jax top, Anivia or Karthus mid, Ezreal ADC, and Lee or Olaf jungle?
Soraka's role in a teamfight is to be a support but with a ton more gold. You shouldn't expect her to paly the same really careful I can't do anything style when she can do a lot of things. With the amount of actives in s3 for supports to get its really legit for a mid support type. Its just extensively boring to do. Staying behind the tank line doesn't mean that your completely away from the fight.
Ap casters scale extensively. I don't know any ap carry that would be "happy" with just dcap void sorcboots. DFG/Landrys/rylias or whatever your fancy makes the ap carry exponentially better while a brusier like jax only needs 1 or 2 items (ga/tf/nashors) to get out of control and do what they need to do.
You then compare a ganker into support type champ (maokai) and say how hes not going to do the same amount of damage that yi is going to do. That makes complete sense but that doesn't mean that yi is anywhere near the quality of jungler compared to maos ganking. Maokai has reposition/snare and an aoe ult that helps out a ton in teamfights. Yi on the other hand has nothing to help anyone but himself so ofc hes gotta out damage maokai.
Why should the Irelia go mid and help out a weaker lane while she lets that under leveled top farm back up get back in the game and take her tower for free? Its the junglers problem to help out a losing lane not the top champ. Irelia will get subsantialy stronger with more items and will prove ever stronger by denying the other top from getting the same items. Irelia needs/wants GA just as badly and for the same reasons that jax does.
This really doesn't make sense and would only hurt most players in their games. Dictating farm to people is for after the lane phase ends and when you're just blindly pushing lanes down to get towers and other objectives. Its not some weird doctrine where you throw away a snowball on some players so another can be slightly less behind.
On January 06 2013 03:50 NEOtheONE wrote: Except there are several problems:
1) There is no way to enforce this as farm priority will fluctuate depending on team comp. 2) Solo queue is solo queue 3) In pubs everyone will try to instalock a priority 1 champion rather than simply calling top, mid, or ADC, so you just trade one form of stupidity for another. 4) It really isn't that obvious to many people, and with the general selfish mentality people will continue to remain oblivious.
#2~4 are the biggest reasons this will never work. People just want to be that carrying hero and have a reason to stroke their e-peens.
It's pretty hard to find reasonable and rational people in LoL...
Here's how 95% of all-pick drafts go in dota(unless you are Very very high mmr or play in a stack): Random pick,random pick,random pick,drow pick "guys we need a support" "np" Riki pick. ˇAnd yea cm mode is mostly used in competitive dota and not pub games.
It should be noted that in DotA the 1-5 "system" is mostly used in competitive or arranged play to describe which position a player plays. League however has much more static laning in comparison meaning a "support player" will mostly play lane support while a "jungler" will be jungling.
In DotA #5 can mean a roaming gank support or a more defensive lane support. A #4 can be a second roamer, a jungler or a lane support who secures his own development with so called jungle pulls. Since the actual role is rather flexible (but the intended overall farm priority isn't) this type of system makes much more sense in DotA.
Also it's important to understand that especially in competitive play the actual farm priority can heavily shift depending on the current situation. A classic example would be 2-3 people protecting the #4 farming for his Blink Dagger. That's equivalent to your jungler and top lane helping your support clear some jungle camps/a big creepwave so he can finish his Shurelyas in time. Stuff like that isn't as common in League as it is in DotA.
On January 06 2013 03:50 NEOtheONE wrote: Except there are several problems:
1) There is no way to enforce this as farm priority will fluctuate depending on team comp. 2) Solo queue is solo queue 3) In pubs everyone will try to instalock a priority 1 champion rather than simply calling top, mid, or ADC, so you just trade one form of stupidity for another. 4) It really isn't that obvious to many people, and with the general selfish mentality people will continue to remain oblivious.
#2~4 are the biggest reasons this will never work. People just want to be that carrying hero and have a reason to stroke their e-peens.
It's pretty hard to find reasonable and rational people in LoL...
2-4 are for people who dont want to improve or play to win. you wouldnt explain bw strategy to people who only play tower defense or the campaign. similarily, you wouldnt expect people who like screwing around to play properly. if people truly want to get better, then something like this can only help better their understanding of the game
On January 06 2013 04:03 TheKefka wrote: Here's how 95% of all-pick drafts go in dota(unless you are Very very high mmr or play in a stack): Random pick,random pick,random pick,drow pick "guys we need a support" "np" Riki pick. ˇAnd yea cm mode is mostly used in competitive dota and not pub games.
This doesn't sound too far off from LoL.
But in rare cases (someone actually picks a legit support), it makes LoL look like the Catholic church.
On January 06 2013 04:08 Sermokala wrote: Here's how 95% of all-pick drafts go in dota(unless you are Very very high mmr or play in a stack): Random pick,random pick,random pick,drow pick "guys we need a support" "Я получил эту парней" Riki pick. ˇAnd yea cm mode is mostly used in competitive dota and not pub games.
On January 06 2013 04:03 TheKefka wrote: Here's how 95% of all-pick drafts go in dota(unless you are Very very high mmr or play in a stack): Random pick,random pick,random pick,drow pick "guys we need a support" "Я получил эту парней" Riki pick. ˇAnd yea cm mode is mostly used in competitive dota and not pub games.
On January 06 2013 04:03 TheKefka wrote: Here's how 95% of all-pick drafts go in dota(unless you are Very very high mmr or play in a stack): Random pick,random pick,random pick,drow pick "guys we need a support" "np" Riki pick. ˇAnd yea cm mode is mostly used in competitive dota and not pub games.
This doesn't sound too far off from LoL.
But in rare cases (someone actually picks a legit support), it makes LoL look like the Catholic church.
The difference is if you want to avoid the above in LoL you play ranked and from my experience people mostly pick according to the meta there.
On January 06 2013 04:03 TheKefka wrote: Here's how 95% of all-pick drafts go in dota(unless you are Very very high mmr or play in a stack): Random pick,random pick,random pick,drow pick "guys we need a support" "Я получил эту парней" Riki pick. ˇAnd yea cm mode is mostly used in competitive dota and not pub games.
On January 06 2013 03:55 Sermokala wrote: Lets break this down.
Soraka's role in a teamfight is to be a support but with a ton more gold. You shouldn't expect her to paly the same really careful I can't do anything style when she can do a lot of things. With the amount of actives in s3 for supports to get its really legit for a mid support type. Its just extensively boring to do. Staying behind the tank line doesn't mean that your completely away from the fight.
Ap casters scale extensively. I don't know any ap carry that would be "happy" with just dcap void sorcboots. DFG/Landrys/rylias or whatever your fancy makes the ap carry exponentially better while a brusier like jax only needs 1 or 2 items (ga/tf/nashors) to get out of control and do what they need to do.
You then compare a ganker into support type champ (maokai) and say how hes not going to do the same amount of damage that yi is going to do. That makes complete sense but that doesn't mean that yi is anywhere near the quality of jungler compared to maos ganking. Maokai has reposition/snare and an aoe ult that helps out a ton in teamfights. Yi on the other hand has nothing to help anyone but himself so ofc hes gotta out damage maokai.
Why should the Irelia go mid and help out a weaker lane while she lets that under leveled top farm back up get back in the game and take her tower for free? Its the junglers problem to help out a losing lane not the top champ. Irelia will get subsantialy stronger with more items and will prove ever stronger by denying the other top from getting the same items. Irelia needs/wants GA just as badly and for the same reasons that jax does.
This really doesn't make sense and would only hurt most players in their games. Dictating farm to people is for after the lane phase ends and when you're just blindly pushing lanes down to get towers and other objectives. Its not some weird doctrine where you throw away a snowball on some players so another can be slightly less behind.
The examples I gave only represent a small portion of the possibilities out there. The point is to get the overall message across, that the champs that will do the most consistent damage should be prioritized for farm. Soraka can stay right behind a tank for all i care, but unless her q is going to hit all the targets she needs to be hitting, which is mostly not the case, she will be forced to stay back in order for her sustained damage/heal to play a big role.
Every champ would love 6 items built up. the question is who can get away with only a handful. If you have cap/void/sorc boots, of course you would want an abyssal/zhonya. The question is, can you still be effective in teamfights without so many items built up. For AD carry, you need at least a BF upgrade, AS item like PD or Shiv, and preferably some ArPen item. That is 3 late game item the AD carry needs to build up in order to mow down the enemy tanks. A gragas with just deathcap/mpen would be content in the mid-game since all he really does is poking the enemy team down. Jax typically builds triforce/ga/some lifesteal. Although you can contest that lifesteal may not be necessary, it does substantially increase jax's potency by surviving the fights longer. Overall though, depending on the situation, Jax may need same if not more farm than most mids.
I used master yi jungle as an example of when you transition to focus of gold from a mid to a jungler. most pub games, master yi would be a terrible jungler, but we are not really talking about pub games. If a pro team were to play master yi in the jungle tomorrow, they would have to take that into consideration and create plays so that the yi gets farmed up, which effectively make up for yi's ganking potential. I could have said the jungler was ashe and the same concept would still apply.
I dont understand how you reach that conclusion for irelia. I never said you completely abandon ur top lane to camp for mid. I simply said that it may be more beneficial to roam mid than to stay in your lane. If singed is 5-0 against a teemo, would staying in top really benefit the team more than if singed ran mid or into the enemy jungle? If you leave your lane too long, then yes you could potentially throw a big advantage. But there is nothing wrong with pushing the wave to the enemy tower, run down, gank or take buffs, then rotate top
"Its the junglers problem to help out a losing lane not the top champ" is probably the bane of LoL. If bot needs camping from the jungler, and mid needs some help, are you suggesting that top should do nothing? If you have control of your lane, dont you think it is good for the team to alleviate some of the pressure off the jungler? The jungler cant be camping 3 lanes at once.
The laning phase will remain the laning phase. However, most people cannot transition out of the laning phase. If it is more beneficial for you to stay in lane and farm up/deny your opponent then do that. If it is more beneficial for you to roam then you should roam. This isnt some wierd doctrine, it is a guideline people can loosely follow
Doesn't really work that well in LoL because lanes are more static and there is less of an assymetrical power curve. Changes in game of farm priority are common in both games but do not determine the number of position, like has been said before. If the #4(Lets say its an Earthshaker) wants a blink dagger ~20min ingame then the 3-(and maybe the 2) will give up some farm for that, however it does not change that he plays the 4th position overall because he is drafted as such. The number position system is more of a thing of the draft in Dota(aswell as a certain player assignment). They can change depending on the game. Moreover, Heroes in Dota can often also play multiple positions, this is not the case in LoL. An AD will never be an AP and an AP will never be an AD. On the other hand a Furion can play anything from a 2 to a 4 position(arguably 1 to 4). The exceptions to these would be Zyra(who can be build as AP mid if I am not mistaken) and Lux. In the past Lulu and Soraka were possible aswell, they can fullfill multiple roles(Support or AP mid) and as such could be classified as that.
Different games different terms, I don't see anything wrong with the current system.
On January 06 2013 04:47 Kipsate wrote: Doesn't really work that well in LoL because lanes are more static and there is less of an assymetrical power curve. Changes in game of farm priority are common in both games but do not determine the number of position, like has been said before. If the #4(Lets say its an Earthshaker) wants a blink dagger ~20min ingame then the 3-(and maybe the 2) will give up some farm for that, however it does not change that he plays the 4th position overall because he is drafted as such. The number position system is more of a thing of the draft in Dota(aswell as a certain player assignment). They can change depending on the game. Moreover, Heroes in Dota can often also play multiple positions, this is not the case in LoL. An AD will never be an AP and an AP will never be an AD. On the other hand a Furion can play anything from a 1 to a 4 position(arguably 2 to 4)
Different games different terms, I don't see anything wrong with the current system.
Also in b4 Yango.
Yi and Kennen can switch between AP and AD. Then there's Teemo. So there are a couple exceptions.
Yes I realized that after writing it(my mistake), however it is a lot less common and due to them not having a wild assymsetric power curve difference like in Dota there is less of an impact in terms of farm priority. The ones I listed(Lux and Zyra) do however scale differently in a sense. They can make great use of the farm and play AP mid but they don't need to and can play support. AP mid Lux and Zyra will perform exponentially better then their support counterparts. This is less the case in Yi and Teemo(but still the case).
On January 06 2013 03:55 Sermokala wrote: Lets break this down.
Soraka's role in a teamfight is to be a support but with a ton more gold. You shouldn't expect her to paly the same really careful I can't do anything style when she can do a lot of things. With the amount of actives in s3 for supports to get its really legit for a mid support type. Its just extensively boring to do. Staying behind the tank line doesn't mean that your completely away from the fight.
Ap casters scale extensively. I don't know any ap carry that would be "happy" with just dcap void sorcboots. DFG/Landrys/rylias or whatever your fancy makes the ap carry exponentially better while a brusier like jax only needs 1 or 2 items (ga/tf/nashors) to get out of control and do what they need to do.
You then compare a ganker into support type champ (maokai) and say how hes not going to do the same amount of damage that yi is going to do. That makes complete sense but that doesn't mean that yi is anywhere near the quality of jungler compared to maos ganking. Maokai has reposition/snare and an aoe ult that helps out a ton in teamfights. Yi on the other hand has nothing to help anyone but himself so ofc hes gotta out damage maokai.
Why should the Irelia go mid and help out a weaker lane while she lets that under leveled top farm back up get back in the game and take her tower for free? Its the junglers problem to help out a losing lane not the top champ. Irelia will get subsantialy stronger with more items and will prove ever stronger by denying the other top from getting the same items. Irelia needs/wants GA just as badly and for the same reasons that jax does.
This really doesn't make sense and would only hurt most players in their games. Dictating farm to people is for after the lane phase ends and when you're just blindly pushing lanes down to get towers and other objectives. Its not some weird doctrine where you throw away a snowball on some players so another can be slightly less behind.
The examples I gave only represent a small portion of the possibilities out there. The point is to get the overall message across, that the champs that will do the most consistent damage should be prioritized for farm. Soraka can stay right behind a tank for all i care, but unless her q is going to hit all the targets she needs to be hitting, which is mostly not the case, she will be forced to stay back in order for her sustained damage/heal to play a big role.
Every champ would love 6 items built up. the question is who can get away with only a handful. If you have cap/void/sorc boots, of course you would want an abyssal/zhonya. The question is, can you still be effective in teamfights without so many items built up. For AD carry, you need at least a BF upgrade, AS item like PD or Shiv, and preferably some ArPen item. That is 3 late game item the AD carry needs to build up in order to mow down the enemy tanks. A gragas with just deathcap/mpen would be content in the mid-game since all he really does is poking the enemy team down. Jax typically builds triforce/ga/some lifesteal. Although you can contest that lifesteal may not be necessary, it does substantially increase jax's potency by surviving the fights longer. Overall though, depending on the situation, Jax may need same if not more farm than most mids.
I used master yi jungle as an example of when you transition to focus of gold from a mid to a jungler. most pub games, master yi would be a terrible jungler, but we are not really talking about pub games. If a pro team were to play master yi in the jungle tomorrow, they would have to take that into consideration and create plays so that the yi gets farmed up, which effectively make up for yi's ganking potential. I could have said the jungler was ashe and the same concept would still apply.
I dont understand how you reach that conclusion for irelia. I never said you completely abandon ur top lane to camp for mid. I simply said that it may be more beneficial to roam mid than to stay in your lane. If singed is 5-0 against a teemo, would staying in top really benefit the team more than if singed ran mid or into the enemy jungle? If you leave your lane too long, then yes you could potentially throw a big advantage. But there is nothing wrong with pushing the wave to the enemy tower, run down, gank or take buffs, then rotate top
"Its the junglers problem to help out a losing lane not the top champ" is probably the bane of LoL. If bot needs camping from the jungler, and mid needs some help, are you suggesting that top should do nothing? If you have control of your lane, dont you think it is good for the team to alleviate some of the pressure off the jungler? The jungler cant be camping 3 lanes at once.
The laning phase will remain the laning phase. However, most people cannot transition out of the laning phase. If it is more beneficial for you to stay in lane and farm up/deny your opponent then do that. If it is more beneficial for you to roam then you should roam. This isnt some wierd doctrine, it is a guideline people can loosely follow
Its going to be the case if theres a teamfight and the enemy is doing anything at all to get to your adc whos killing them. and like I said this isn't support I can't take a hit anymore soraka this is mid soraka where she has a ton of tankyness and can suvive for a while on top of not being the first second or third priority target that people are going for.
Ap carrys do more then just "poke the enemy team down" when their purpose is to burst down low targets when they get the opertunity to. Gragas has the ability to catch people out of posision really well in order to be able to lock them up and kill them with the adc. The amount of items that the ap carry has to accomplice this goal is in no way comparable to the triforce/ga that bruisers like irelia and jax want/need to do their roles. Having more items will simple help them do it better for ap carrys. Ad carrys need a few items before they can take over the game like they need to in late game but that doesn't mean they don't do damage before that. Brusiers are "content" with 2 items ap carrys arn't. A GA helps jax survive long enough in team fights he doesn't "need" lifesteal.
Yi is a jungler hes going to do jungler things. hes not gona have his team "create plays to open up space for him to farm when that same farm would be better off going to the adc. He can just tax the lanes and get the farm on his own. If 2 lanes are behind then the jungler should just gank and roam between them not just do nothing.
It doesnt work when teams are not organised 5's. This is because games will be won off 1 lane snowballing and being able to carry the rest of the team or lanes to victory. If a lanes winning so hard that the opponent is underleveled and crippled you may as well just kill the tower and get some more early gold to extend your lead instead of swapping a lane, drawing out the laning phase and ending up with weird matchups that most people wont have any experience playing.
This thread is sort of funny because almost every game will have support jungler top mid AD and it'll generally be 5 4 3 2 1, with some variance with top 3. LoL has much much better and more frequent 1-5 system in pubs than DotA does.